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May 08, 2010

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You just can't dodge that.  There is no getting around it.  Show me.

You sound like a broken record, Ellen. It could be shown. Why isn't it?
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Threadkiller

Ellen,
Please read http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=US&vol=88&invol=162 "> Minor v. Happersett(1874) .

...it was never doubted that all children born in a country of parents who were its citizens became themselves, upon their birth, citizens also. These were natives, or natural-born citizens, as distinguished from aliens or foreigners. Some authorities go further and include as citizens children born within the jurisdiction without reference to the citizenship of their parents. As to this class there have been doubts, but never as to the first. For the purposes of this case it is not necessary to solve these doubts.

Regarding ">http://supreme.justia.com/us/169/649/case.html"> Wong , as you seem to be intimate with, in the majority opinion, Justice Horace Gray also expressed doubts about "natural born". For example, he quoted the following from Minor v. Happersett:

At common law, with the nomenclature of which the framers of the Constitution were familiar, it was never doubted that all children, born in a country of parents who were its citizens, became themselves, upon their birth, citizens also. These were natives, or natural-born citizens, as distinguished from aliens or foreigners. Some authorities go further, and include as citizens children born within the jurisdiction, without reference to the citizenship of their parents. As to this class, there have been doubts, but never as to the first. For the purposes of this case, it is not necessary to solve these doubts.

This may look like a broken record, but it shows two SCOTUS cases that shy away from an answer. To date, the Supreme Court has not resolved these doubts.

If you have resolved these doubts in an actual legal sense, please show us your homework. I wish to learn, not argue.

Bryan.

Threadkiller

How do you indent quoted text?

Thanks in advance.
Bryan

boris

<blockquote>

Threadkiller
Thanks boris!

Bryan

Ellen

Re Citation.

In a speech before the House of Representatives in May of 1789, James Madison said:

"It is an established maxim, that birth is a criterion of allegiance. Birth, however, derives its force sometimes from place, and sometimes from parentage; but, in general, place is the most certain criterion; it is what applies in the United States."

Rocco

From the King Harvest link, who bankrolled him?

Mr. Obama explained that he had taken the train out from Chicago to visit the Ayers’ in order to thank them for their help with his “education.” At this time, Mr. Obama had recently graduated from Columbia and would soon enter Harvard Law School. Hulton and Obama “spoke for a few minutes, first chatting about the Ayers family,” Hulton said. Hulton said he did not learn whether the help Obama received from the Ayers’ was financial or in some other form.

This would seem to indicate that Obama knew the Ayers family when he entered Columbia in 1981 or sooner. He didn't enter Harvard until 1988 and thanks to Percy Sutton, we now know it was Khalid al-Mansour and the Saudi's who helped him at Harvard.

Threadkiller

I still have not seen any links. I would like one to your Madison speech. Using the term "in general" is not a good way to prove a definite. Please read your quote again.

I have a quote:

"...dual nationals owe allegiance to both the United States and the foreign country. They are required to obey the laws of both countries."

United States Department of State

If you like the "general" way of quoting, here is another from the same link:

"The country where a dual national is located generally has a stronger claim to that person's allegiance."

I guess that the other nation would have a claim, although weaker.

Bryan.

Ms. Trish

I think it important for context to point out that Madison as mentioned above was addressing the issue of eligibility of a certain Mr. Smith of South Carolina to serve in the House of Representatives.


Ignatz

Ellen, for future reference that does not actually constitute a citation.

Hey, Bryan thanks for weighing on this Ellen.
Didn't have time to find the links I knew you would have handy.

Enough yammer; show me.

Ellen, you are unconvincing. 'Natural Born Citizen' can be interpreted to exclude Obama even if he was born in the US.

So why doesn't he settle the question as well as he can by releasing his own original birth certificate? Stonewalling like this only serves to keep the question in the public's eye, and his allegiance questioned every time he acts. This issue is not going to evaporate merely in the attempt to marginalize the doubters. This issue increases in importance as his popularity wanes.

It is either arrogant or psychotic to keep refusing to establish his legitimacy, unless he actually is ineligible. So take your choice; arrogant, psychotic, or illegitimate.
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Show me.

Look, Ellen, it is quite obvious to any sentient adult in the 21st Century, that behaviour such as Obama has displayed through this birth certificate mess is behaviour associated with hiding something. It is almost certain that Obama is hiding something. It may not be his father, it may not be his birth place, it may not be this or it may not be that. But it is clear, from his behaviour, from the fight he's put up in courts, and even from the presence of dear disinformation posters like yourself, that something is being hidden.

Now, how about this irony. This mistake made in the early stages of his campaign to hide the information and stonewall the curious may well end up the mistake that torpedoes his Presidency, or prevents a second term.

Now, don't you wish he'd just been honest?
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Show me the venue.

To recap, though probably completely unnecessary for those still following: 'Natural Born Citizen' is a term of legal art applied only to the question of eligibility for the Presidency. Obama, on the face of his published story of his father, is ineligible for the Presidency on the basis of the thinking of the framers and other subsequent legal scholars about the meaning of that term 'Natural Born Citizen'.

Now, deliberately lying about his origins, or concealing them, when the matter is about his eligibility, is certainly a high crime or misdemeanour.
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Threadkiller

No problem Ignatz. I used to "cut and paste" just like Ellen. Now I am all grown up and I show my sources!

Thanks
Bryan

Ellen

Re: Citation

In a speech before the House of Representatives in May of 1789, James Madison said:
It is an established maxim, that birth is a criterion of allegiance. Birth, however, derives its force sometimes from place, and sometimes from parentage; but, in general, place is the most certain criterion; it is what applies in the United States.

As you can see, Madison said that place was both the most certain criterion and that it and nothing else is what applies in the United States.

Threadkiller

No link.

"in general"?

Is it true that this speech was about a position for the House?

Was Madison quoted in Minor v. Happersett or Wong Kim Ark?

More context please.

JM Hanes

Threadkiller: Context:

The first House contested election

April 29, 1789

On this date, the House referred its first contested election case, Ramsay vs. Smith from South Carolina, to the Committee on Elections, a panel created on April 13, 1789, to render judgment on disputed elections in the House based on evidence and witness testimony. David Ramsay contested the election of William Loughton Smith of South Carolina to the 1st Congress (1789–1791), arguing that Smith was not a citizen of the United States for seven years, a requirement set under the Constitution for election to the House. Though he was born in Charleston, South Carolina, in 1758, Smith had been educated and lived abroad from 1770 to 1783. The case gave the House an opportunity to establish precedent for handling future contested elections: the Committee on Elections gathered evidence and rendered a judgment after which the House determined if more evidence was needed and, if not, voted on the committee’s report. The committee and the whole House upheld Smith’s election, tacitly recognizing his citizenship, despite the fact that he lived abroad when the United States was founded. “It is an established maxim, that birth is the criterion of allegiance,” declared Representative James Madison of Virginia in his colleague’s defense. “Mr. Smith founds his claim upon his birthright; his ancestors were among the first settlers of [South Carolina].”

ignatz

That (JMH's post) is a citation, Ellen.

It doesn't answer the question of natural born citizenship as it pertains to the presidency, but we are at least able to follow her leads to check whether or not the quote is apochryphal, accurate or made up out of whole cloth.
And BTW, in case you didn't notice, her cited source does not match your unsourced quote which is perhaps why you didn't provide any link or context in the first place?

MJW

Here's an interesting question (at least to me). I've seen a number of claims, such as here, that HIPAA privacy rules prevent hospitals from saying whether Obama was born there (they seem awful pleased that Obama can avoid answering questions about his past). I'm not sure that's completely true. HIPAA provides an exception:

(1) Permitted uses and disclosure. Except when an objection is expressed in accordance with paragraphs (a)(2) or (3) of this section, a covered health care provider may:
(i) Use the following protected health information to maintain a directory of individuals in its facility:
(A) The individual's name;
(B) The individual's location in the covered health care provider's facility;
(C) The individual's condition described in general terms that does not communicate specific medical information about the individual; and
(D) The individual's religious affiliation; and
(ii) Disclose for directory purposes such information:
(A) To members of the clergy; or
(B) Except for religious affiliation, to other persons who ask for the individual by name.

Presumably if Stanley Ann was listed in the original hospital directory in 1961, the hospital could release that information, but it's unlikely hospitals keep the directories from that long ago. So in absence of a directory, is a patient presumed to have not objected to being listed? If so, I think the hospitals could confirm or deny that Obama's mother was in the hospital at the time.

Threadkiller

"his ancestors were among the first settlers of [South Carolina].”

So his ancestors became US citizens as a result of the war?

Choose wisely, Ellen.

Ironic, isn't it, Ellen, that JMH's citation with the context show a very different set of circumstances than Obama's. It seems that Smith was native born of two native born parents. Further, I like this irony in the quote from Madison: 'Mr. Smith founds his claim upon his birthright; his ancestors were among the first settlers of (South Carolina). Note the pertinence of forebears over birthplace.

So we see your quote in its context tells an entirely different story than you would have it say. There is a word for people like you. Now, either you've copied and pasted and are merely ignorant, or you are distinctly disingenuous and subject to the disdain you deserve.

Here's more Madison: "If justice, good faith, honor, gratitude & all the other Qualities which enoble the character of a nation, and fulfil the ends of Government, be the fruits of our establihments, the cause of liberty will acquire a dignity and lustre, which it has never yet enjoyed; and an example will be set which can not but have the most favorable influence on the rights of mankind."

So with Obama's dodging about his origins, where is the good faith and honor, and whence the destiny of the rights of mankind with such a man with such power?
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I choose to correct myself, Ellen.

er, 'Where the destiny of the rights of mankind with such a man'. It sounded nice the other way, though.
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