No More Fuzzy Birther Math

Think Progress bemoans the failure of their ongoing faith-based push to convince people that there is nothing to the Obama birth certificate kvetching, but they engage in some fuzzy math:

24 percent of Americans believe Obama was born outside the U.S.

Long after the question of President Obama’s birthplace should have been put to rest, a new poll shows that nearly one in four Americans believe the “birther” lunacy that the president was born outside the country. The Vanity Fair/60 Minutes poll found that 24 percent of respondents think Obama was born outside the U.S., with six percent saying he was born in Kenya, another two percent choosing Indonesia, and the remainder being unsure of his exact foreign origins...

I love the passive voice in "should have been put to rest".  By whom?  Obama has steadfastly refused to request the complete file from the State of Hawaii and then release it, so we are left with the current chanting from the left that amounts to "The people verifying Obama's birth are from the government; trust them".  My casual appraisal of the current landscape is that we are not in a high-trust environment just now.  And gosh, it seems like only yesterday the Thinking Progressers could have delivered an endless litany of government lies, starting with missing WMDs. moving through Gitmo, and heading off anywhere and everywhere.  Times change.

FWIW, my official editorial position is that Obama is probably not hiding anything in those files; he just hides everything, and will request the file after he signs his eight-figure book deal.

But let's Move On to the fuzzy math!   From the poll, which hit on such topics as fave foods and where do people go after they die, we see a variety of answers on the question of Obama's birth.

To get to 24%, the Thinker, Alex Seitz-Wald, added respondents who cited Kenya (5%), Indonesia (2%), "Someplace else outside the US" (5%) and "Not sure which country" (11%).

The full reported responses add to a mere 87%, so I infer that 13% chose something like "Don't know", "No idea", or "Huh?"

And what about the 11% who chose "Not sure which country"?  The Thinker included these among the 24% claiming foreign birth.  Literalists studying the questions can argue that "Not sure which country" cannot mean "Don't know" since that is a clearly different choice.  And I suppose one could argue that "Some other country" is a compilation of respondents who cited Canada, Mexico, or whatever, thereby making it distinct from a "Not sure which country, but it sure was foreign" category.

But without having the detailed questions or the wording of "Don't know" choice in front of us, it seems entirely plausible that "Some other country" is an expression of confidence in Obama's terrestial origins without taking a view on his American status - per these respondents, Obama may or may not be an illegal alien, but he is not a space alien.  That may be progress.

Pretty clearly, 13% of respondents specifically think Obama was born outside the US, and I have no doubt the Thinker would rather talk about that than the economy, or the gulf, or Afghanistan, or Gitmo.  As to what the inscrutable 11% are thinking, well, I don't know, even if the Thinker (and an uncritical Michael Tomasky) do.

I'M READY TO TELL YOU MY SECRET:  In my very long range planning I am coming back as a ghost, which will shock the 98% of poll respondents who said it couldn't be done.  You just have to set your mind to achieving your goals - they laughed when I said I wanted to be a comedian, but they're not laughing now.

Comments

[Danube of Thought]

I decline to comment. I can do no other.

[larry]

Har! "...they're not laughing now." Snorked cocola all over my keyboard T M. By the way, 5+2+5+11 is not 24.

[I smell the blood of a gentleman and scholar.]

I appreciate your tolerance, circumspection, and restraint.
=========================

[Boatbuilder]

"They laughed...." I'm stealing that one. I'll screw up the delivery, but I'm still stealing it.

[bgates]

5+2+5+11 is not 24

Mather!

[Janet]

Obama may or may not be an illegal alien, but he is not a space alien.

Who knows...that guy is so sketchy I'd put nothing past him!
The irony is that of the 2 Presidential candidates it was John McCain that showed the world his birth certificate. Obama only showed a certification that his birth certificate was on file.

I find it interesting that Think Progress can't let it go.

[matt]

it is perfectly obvious he was born in the 57th State. By the way, where's sylvia? I've got her aluminum foil hat ready to go....

[jefferson101]

I keep telling everyone. He was born in Hawaii. But he lied when he went to College, and Grad School, and got financial aid and admission preference as a "Foreign Student".

If he admits he was born here, and someone digs his University records out, he can get sued for that money, plus interest, and lose his degrees.

And University records may be a lot less closely held than the State Birth records, if it comes to that. So he has to maintain ambiguity.

[Extraneus]

I'm not a doubter in his Hawaiian birth, but I'm not sure I agree with TM's theory that Obama will someday release the birth certificate, since I'm betting there's a reason for hiding whatever is on the form. (Last name different, first name different, religion = Muslim, etc.) My question is: Is there a time-limit beyond which this can't be prevented; say, after the person is deceased?

Will historians someday have access to the long form?

[Porchlight]

I think he was born in Hawaii, but something's hinky, possibly the Occidental application and/or his transfer to Columbia, where apparently nobody knew him.

At any rate it looks like the DeMSM strategy of ridiculing the birthers has backfired somewhat. All they've managed to do is circulate the meme even more widely than it otherwise would have been. I seriously doubt we'd see these poll results if they'd just ignored the story.

[Extraneus]

Cheney Leaves Hospital After Treatment for Heart-Related Trouble

His office said on Sunday that the former vice president's condition has improved considerably, and he left the hospital as expected on Monday.

[Marko]

If you are born in Argentina to American parents, are you not American?

Obama's father was Kenyan. Is Obama a Kenyan because of his dad, or a natural born US citizen due to being born in Hawaii?

[Janet]

This is kinda cool - Off Topic
Back in 2006 Powerline had a post about sending conservative books to a Sgt Thul from the Minnesota National Guard serving in Iraq. The link shows the library they put together over in Iraq. They got so many books that it expanded to other bases.
I sent boxes & boxes over there, and got a letter back from him. I was thrilled!
Anyway, he is now running for office in Minnesota.

[Pofarmer]

Is Obama a Kenyan because of his dad, o

Yes, he was, according to Kenyan law.

or a natural born US citizen due to being born in Hawaii?

Never been adjudicated.

[Stephanie]

How long you figure until the idiots at the DMV realize what tag they issued and demand it be turned in? And how long after that til the guy is audited?

[Stephanie]

ohh shite... was excited that Strasburg got run by the Braves and forgot to check the size..

[Threadkiller]

Marko,

Obama was born British because Obama's own website said so:

”When Barack Obama Jr. was born on Aug. 4,1961, in Honolulu, Kenya was a British colony, still part of the United Kingdom’s dwindling empire. As a Kenyan native, Barack Obama Sr. was a British subject whose citizenship status was governed by The British Nationality Act of 1948. That same act governed the status of Obama Sr.‘s children.”

Barack Obama Sr. was a British subject whose citizenship status was governed by The British Nationality Act of 1948. That same act governed the status of Obama Sr.‘s children.

Obama was born a Brit.

Extraneus,

I believe the time limit will be right after the dolts destroy the 14th ammendment with claims it bestows "birthright citizenship" to all.

It does not!

[Jane says obamasucks]

Janet,

The stuff you do for the troops - and have for years and years and years is just wonderful, and awesome, and impressive as hell.

[fdcol63]

I think the citizenship of Barry Sr. is moot.

If Maury Povich did one of those "Who's Yo' Daddy" DNA tests, I'm pretty sure Barry Sr. wouldn't have to pay child support.

[Janet]

Jane, I brought it up because I just saw his name on Facebook as friending John Hinderaker & I friend requested him. He wrote back & asked if I was the same one that sent books!
Seriously, I'm like a deranged fan with our military! What would we do without them? Thank God some of our citizens choose to serve.
I wouldn't cross the street for a "movie star", but our military guys make my heart pound! :)

[Janet]

...like Maury Povich. I wouldn't cross the street to meet him.

[Porchlight]

Janet, that is super cool.

[JorgXMcKie]

I was told there'd be no math.

[caro]

Janet,what a guy to remember your name! And what a gal to do what you do! HB...sorry I'm late.

Hey,Vince Flynn lives in Minnesota,too.

[SteveP]

Ok, Barry Soetoro was born in Hawaii. Point conceded.
However, he has spent about $1 mil to keep hidden documents that it has become SOP for presidents to release.
He wouldn't do that if he wasn't hiding something. What is he hiding?

[Ann]

Janet:

Let me ditto the above and thank you for all you do.

I was a Girl Scout leader when we sent our guys to Iraq. The first Christmas I bought special patriotic Christmas cards with my own money for the girls to sign.

You would not believe the grief I got from parents.

I just love the fact that Sgt Thul remembered you and is now running for office.

Very Cool!

[Neo]

after he signs his eight-figure book deal

I suggest an 80% tax on proceeds of books by former government employees.

[Janet]

Ann, Why would the parents give you grief? I don't get some people at all.

Thanks Caro...52 yrs. young!

[Atticus Finch]

At what point during the call are the respondents made to swear to tell the pollster the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? But seriously, is helping someone like Zogby make money a duty of mine? I hope more people start responding this way in protest to the economic insanity of the current administration (whatever they think about Obama's continued failure to produce his original birth certificate).

[bgates]

There are so many crazy conspiracy theories out there.

I heard one the other day that supposedly hundreds of leftist academics and nominally "straight" news reporters communicate secretly with each other.

Then there was the one that claimed Russia has secret agents deep undercover inside the US for some reason.

There was a crazy story a few years ago about that nice young man who ran for Vice President, something about a baby and a rented house and I don't know what. It got printed up in one of those supermarket tabloids and I knew people who believed every word!

Then there was the notion that some cabal of scientists was controlling journals from the shadows to silence their critics and ensure their own continued dominance.

So I guess the same kind of weirdos who like stories like those will delight in these nonsense questions about the President.

[Threadkiller]

He wouldn't do that if he wasn't hiding something. What is he hiding?

He is not hiding the fact that he is a dual citizen. The million spent is to keep people from looking at the obvious and stay stuck focusing on the irrelevant.

[narciso]

Ha, bgates, right on the mark, also this crazy stories of interviews being edited with
a hacksaw, to provide material for Upper Darby debutantes with comic pretensions.

But honestly TM, Think Progress, that's one
Deep Water Horizon well, too deep, of course
that nice man Mr. Soros, says this is just part of his life work, he doesn't seem to like
money, maybe they should just take all of his, he'd much happier I think

[daddy]

Oh Captain my Captain...

"with Robert Byrd having had a sheet pulled over his head for the last time..."

A little late but I'm on the other side of the planet.

Was in the crew room at 2 AM in China with about 20 other guys, all dead tired but all getting ready for launch, and I clicked on JOM and read that and keeled over laughing. Everybody wants to know what the hell's got into me, so out loud, between snorks and guffaws, I read: "with Robert Byrd having had a sheet pulled over his head for the last time..." The place went banana'!

Outstanding job Captain Hate. I don't know if that lines getting the airtime it needs stateside, but man, it'll be making the rounds of bars in at least half a dozen countries in Asia by the time you read this. Great job!

[Granite]

The reason that not one member of the Electoral College switched her or his vote despite a campaign by birthers and two-fers to have them do so, is that no one of them believed that the citizenship of Obama's father or dual nationality affects Obama's Natural Born Citizen status. And the same holds for the reason that the US Congress confirmed Obama's election UNANIMOUSLY. Not one congressman believed that Obama was not a Natural Born Citizen.

That is why such prominent conservative Senators who are also lawyers as Orren Hatch and Lindsay Graham say that a Natural Born Citizen is simply one who was born in the USA:

Senator Lindsey Graham (R-SC), said:

“Every child born in the United States is a natural-born United States citizen except for the children of diplomats.” (December 11, 2008 letter to constituent)

Senator Orrin G. Hatch (R-UT), said:

“What is a natural born citizen? Clearly, someone born within the United States or one of its territories is a natural born citizen.” (Senate Judiciary Committee hearing hearing on OCTOBER 5, 2004)

And there have been federal court cases in which the justices have ruled that the US-born children of one or two foreigners are Natural Born Citizens. For example:

Mustata v. US Dept. of Justice, 179 F.3d 1017 (6th Cir. 1999) (children born in US to two Romanian citizens described as “natural born citizens” of the US):

"Petitioners Marian and Lenuta Mustata are citizens of Romania. At the time of their petition, they resided in Michigan with their two minor children, who are natural born citizens of the United States."

And:

Diaz-Salazar v. INS, 700 F.2d 1156 (7th Cir. 1983) (child born in US to Mexican citizen is “natural born citizen” of US):

"Petitioner, Sebastian Diaz-Salazar, entered the United States illegally [from Mexico] in 1974 and has been living and working in Chicago since that time. *** The relevant facts which have been placed before the INS, BIA, and this court can be summarized as follows: The petitioner has a wife and two children under the age of three in Chicago; the children are natural-born citizens of the United States."

[daddy]

Odds and Ends:

Napolitano">http://cnsnews.com/news/article/68494">Napolitano said, “The plain fact of the matter is the border is as secure now as it has ever been."

Juxtaposed with Arizona Governor Jan Brewer doing this marvelous video ">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bzDlN7VLmXQ"> Does this border look secure to you?

And the funny thing, what with having to print everything in multiple languages (except Obama's "Stay away from the border" sign) because its too demanding and unfair to expect immigrants to learn English, I read this in todays China Daily:

"Xian, capital of Shaanxi province in northwest China...has hammered out a long term initiative to turn itself into an international metropolis within the decade. And, one of the benchmarks of the urbanization---half of it's residents (3.2 million population) must be able to speak at least 900 sentences in English by 2015." ">http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/opinion/2010-06/28/content_10026750.htm"> Link.

And last but not least, Bayer Pharmaceuticals has launched a children's cartoon book about global warming called ">http://www.eco-minds.bayer.com/wuwte_complete.pdfx"> What's Up With The Earth - The Mystery Of Early Spring. It brings knowledge of global warming, the changes in climate and low-carbon living to children aged six to 12 years."

Just something to keep in mind next time you buy aspirin.

[Jack is Back!]

daddy,

And recently, the Journal of the AMA has published a research abstract noting that taking the 81 mg of aspirin a day to prevent heart attacks may be a fraud also.

[Pof, anna v. and Dr.Bill; I'm jealous.]

Granite, there is a distinction between 'natural born citizen' and 'native born citizen' which some people are trying very hard to elide. It is a fine point of law, which would go over the heads of most people, but it is not yet adjudicated, as Pofarmer noted above.

At times, particularly when there are waves of commenters pushing this meme, I believe that this fine distinction is the source of Obama's pathological need to hide his past. But at other times, I think that if that is so, he's silly to worry about it, because outrage from his supporters at being declared ineligible over such a fine point would carry the day politically.

There have been times that I believed he wasn't born in Hawai'i. He has not produced the definitive proof, and why he wouldn't do that when a quarter of his constituency doubts his legitimacy, I've no idea.

However, I suspect that he was born in Hawai'i, and that birthplace is not his guilty secret. More likely it has to do with other documentation that at one time he passed himself off as Indonesian; either for his Pakistan visa or for his Occidental application.

Look, granite, he's hiding something, and it is likely that it is information that he is susceptible to blackmail over. Whether or not he is being blackmailed, I guess the future will show us.

Now read up on the fine points of 'natural born citizen' and the rationale the founders had for creating this special category of eligibility for the Presidency. Then contemplate what international power has his visa paperwork.
=================

[Is he a Kendonesian Commie? Well, he acts like one.]

And honestly granite, instead of pushing all this paper at us, why do you not ask Obama for a simple single piece of paper? What motivates you, fella', to do this?

It is the presence of disinformationalists like you which continues to raise the spectre of deceit among the population. Sophistry generally suffers where the rubber meets the road.

Show me the certificate. Show me. That is a simple and humble request. That he cannot even do that is ultimately going to bring him down.

It's not the birthplace, it's the cover-up.
=================

[peter]

bgates, your 1:01 comment is the comment of the day.

[Extraneus]

I second that.

[Parallel]

May I suggest that the other 11% (or was it 13%) regard Hawaii as being outside of the US?

||

[Alex]

So, a registered foreign student is like those other foreign registers, but not cause their dads weren't CIA informants. You had to be registered as a foreign student for those benefits CIA gets you?

It's easier to work the family angle. See how successful O was by just going along with the program vs. the deep cover non informant registered, not born in the USA, unlike O who was under Hawaiian law by being registered in 2 years.

[Parking Lot]

A lot of people are now saying that the reason he won't show it is because he can't, it doesn't exist. Hmmmmm, what are the implictions of that? And notice that the COLB he did release looked brand new, not a crease or wrinkle upon it.

[Jane]

I wouldn't cross the street for a "movie star", but our military guys make my heart pound! :)

I feel the exact same way. I never know the name of one person in People magazine, but I can identify every politician by his ass.

Hey,Vince Flynn lives in Minnesota,too.

I'm moving.

[Melinda Romanoff]

O/T-

All indications that this will be a very messy opening of the markets today. China revisions of growth estimates were way, way lower. The ECB had a failed auction (Central banks aren't supposed to have that happen to them) and Spanish bank problems are coming to the fore. Futures point to an open at least -103 in the Dow. 10yr is trading below 3% and the $ is screaming as the Euro melts down.

Helmets on, everyone.

[Captain Hate]

That is why such prominent conservative Senators who are also lawyers as Orren Hatch and Lindsay (sic) Graham

Epic fail, Granitehead; go have another appletooney with Miss Lindsey.

[Janet]

LUN via Instapundit -
algore sends out a fundraising email for the Dem. Congressional Campaign Committee.

"House Republicans are actually campaigning on the promise to bring back the same failed policies and put in place some of the very same leaders that created this mess in the first place."

failed policies??..leaders that created this mess in the first place???? How can the party of Barney Frank & Chris Dodd say this? Fannie & Freddie & the CRA?? Hello?
Democrats - the party of chutzpah
The fact that Fannie & Freddie remain money sucking failures shows there is little desire to really fix anything.

Perhaps Eliot Spitzer can have algore on his TV show & they can tell us what dishonorable, con artists, & failures the Republicans are.

[Rob Crawford]

I suggest an 80% tax on proceeds of books by former government employees.

Excepting members of the military.

(Don't penalize the soldiers because the politicians are crooked.)

[Rob Crawford]

Not one congressman believed that Obama was not a Natural Born Citizen.

If members of Congress are your standard for fact-checking, I have some bad news for you...

[Rob Crawford]

It's not the birthplace, it's the cover-up.

That and the realization that we don't enforce such a basic requirement.

For me, it's part and parcel with the whole "are we a nation of laws or not" question. If politicians are allowed to ignore a plainly-worded Constitutional requirement, then why do we treat any of our laws as valid?

[Rob Crawford]

How can the party of Barney Frank & Chris Dodd say this?

They know no one in the press will ever, ever call them on it.

[narciso]

How about what Spitzer, did to AIG's Ace Greenberg, which was metaphorically equivalent
to AIG's prospect as what he did with what's her name,

[Jane]

This is great news.

Brown won't vote for the financial services bill or cap and tax. And he berates democrats for shoving in new taxes in the middle of the night, and tells the environmentalists running the ads on Fox if they really care about then environment, use that money to fix the spill.

Another hero - today/.

[Thomas Collins]

"They may, however, be all comprehended under the following general heads: protection by the government; the enjoyment of life and liberty, with the right to acquire and possess property of every kind, and to pursue and obtain happiness and safety; subject never- theless to such restraints as the government may justly prescribe for the general good of the whole. The right of a citizen of one State to pass through, or to reside in any other State, for purposes of trade, agriculture, professional pursuits, or otherwise; to claim the benefit of the writ of habeas corpus; to institute and maintain actions of any kind in the courts of the State; to take, hold and dispose of property, either real or personal; and an exemption from higher taxes or impositions than are paid by the other citizens of the State; may be mentioned as some of the particular privileges and immunities of citizens, which are clearly embraced by the general description of privileges deemed to be fundamental; to which may be added, the elective franchise, as regu-lated and established by the laws or constitution of the State in which it is to be exercised. These, and many others which might be men-tioned, are, strictly speaking, privileges and immunities. . . ."

At some point, I suspect there may be a thread on the SCOTUS decision applying the Second Amendment to the States. Justice Thomas, in a concurring opinion, used the Priviliges or Immunities Clause of the US Constitution as the basis for his decision (the other 4 SCOTUSes voting to strike down the ban used a more traditional approach of incorporating Bill of Rights amendments as restrictions on the States). In any event, the above quote is from a federal circuit court case which many constitutional law type folks think is a good summary of the scope of the Privileges or Immunities Clause (caveat: there is a lot of debate on the scope of this clause; I think the above summary is the best statement of the scope of the clause, but many disagree). The use of the clause has been greatly restricted due to SCOTUS Justices generally being unwilling to revisit an 1873 case which applied a narrow scope to the clause; it will be interesting to see if Justice Thomas's approach gains more adherents in the future.

[Thomas Collins]

In any event, the LUNed article discusses Justice Thomas's concurring opinion and links to such opinion. I don't think there is a better legal mind ruminating today than Justice Thomas, and his concurring opinion in the Chicago gun case is Clarence at his best!

[Jane]

Oh dear, Ear Leader's unfavorables jumped a bit today.

[Rick Ballard]

Mel,

Don't forget Nobel Prize winning Enron adviser Krugman's declaration of the third great depression. He's doing a little table setting for the realization that BO and the Democrat party have totally failed on the economic front. He's also doing the set up for Stim II - The Greater Failure.

What will the Democrat Insane Clown Posse do for an encore?

[Captain Hate]

You beat me to the LUN TC. I wonder what that idiot Harry Reid thinks about the praise that legal scholars (real ones; not poseurs like Odimwit) are laying on Thomas's concurring opinion.

LUN for another op-ed on Sir Golfsalot's Afghanistan situation.

[narciso]

Since this seems to be the more active thread, look how well connected this Mr.Heathfield is, he seems the Fenton of
the spy business

[Melinda Romanoff]

Rick-

It's starting to really unravel. I think Trichet feels he can hold it all together by his mental temerity alone. No cash needed. All will be better by tomorrow.

It's like he's sitting backwards on the spring glacier toboggan. Crevasse or rocks? That is the question he's dodging.

It's going to get really ugly by tomorrow when all that liquidity provisional systems goes and dies.

[Jane]

Sir Golfsalot

Love it.

[I.B. Wright]

From the evidence we do have, there are some things that seem obvious.

He was not born in a hospital in hawaii. tim adams, senior elections officer knows this for a fact.

He obtained his birth certificate by affidavit. That's why his birth certificate was "filed, not accepted".

And that even though he says it's all kosher, he's HIDING it. And one would have to be a blithering idiot to believe he's hiding it for no reason.

[Captain Hate]

LUN for what's driving Jugear's immigration political idiocy. Btw, speaking of dumbass immigration positions, where's bb slunk off to; or did that stand for Bobby Byrd?

[Janet]

Just reading through JOM this morning, I am struck by how uninformed a reader of the WaPo actually is. They know nothing of the legitimate details of the birth certificate questions, or the DoJ Black Panthers dropped case. Rep. Etheridge attacking a student has been mentioned & dropped. Area residents were attacked in their homes by union thugs, and although the ombudsman wrote about it...there was no story.
It really is pretty unbelievable.
The MSM is the enemy. If busy Americans are uninformed it is because the MSM doesn't inform them.

[Mustang0302]

TC, thanks for that link to Justice Bushrod Washington's opinion of Corfield v. Coryell.

I'm sorry to say I'd never heard of this gentleman before...very interesting.

[Sue]

I believe Obama was born in Hawaii. But man oh man how I wish the birth certificate story, any one of them, would be true.

[Mustang0302]

TC, ditto the Thomas article!

[Mustang0302]

Uh, other than not having heard of Thomas before...

[Terry Gain]

Not subjecting Obama to the same standards as anyone else would have been subjected to has had serious and predictable consequences. He pretty well feels he can do anything he wants and get away with it. It was a serious error for conservatives not to have vehemently objected to the pejorative birthers to describe people who were merely, and rightfully, demanding nothing more than proof of eligibility for the nation's highest office.

[Granite1]

You said: “Granite, there is a distinction between 'natural born citizen' and 'native born citizen' which some people are trying very hard to elide. It is a fine point of law, which would go over the heads of most people, but it is not yet adjudicated, as Pofarmer noted above.”

Answer: The reason that the US Congress confirmed Obama’s election UNANIMOUSLY is that every single member believes that ALL native born citizens are Natural Born Citizens. In fact, I’ve done some research and it shows that at the time of writing the Constitution the term “native born” was very rarely used. (I don’t know why, perhaps because it might have implied “birth from the natives.) In any case, the term that was used all the time was NATURAL BORN, and the writers of the Constitution never used ever to mean “born of two citizen parents.” They only used it the way that it is used in the common law, in which it meant “born in the country with the exception of the children of foreign diplomats.”

And that is what the Wong Kim Ark case ruled too, that EVERY child born in the USA except for the children of foreign diplomats is Natural Born. The combination of a person who is Natural Born and is also a citizen makes, obviously, a Natural Born Citizen.

That is why there have been federal court rulings like these:

Mustata v. US Dept. of Justice, 179 F.3d 1017 (6th Cir. 1999) (children born in US to two Romanian citizens described as “natural born citizens” of the US):

“Petitioners Marian and Lenuta Mustata are citizens of Romania. At the time of their petition, they resided in Michigan with their two minor children, who are natural born citizens of the United States.”

And:

Diaz-Salazar v. INS, 700 F.2d 1156 (7th Cir. 1983) (child born in US to Mexican citizen is “natural born citizen” of US):

“Petitioner, Sebastian Diaz-Salazar, entered the United States illegally [from Mexico] in 1974 and has been living and working in Chicago since that time. *** The relevant facts which have been placed before the INS, BIA, and this court can be summarized as follows: The petitioner has a wife and two children under the age of three in Chicago; the children are natural-born citizens of the United States.”

You said: “He has not produced the definitive proof..”

He has. The Certification of Live Birth is the OFFICIAL BIRTH CERTIFICATE OF HAWAII and the facts on it were confirmed twice by the officials in Hawaii and once by the governor of Hawaii.

You also said: “and why he wouldn't do that when a quarter of his constituency doubts his legitimacy, “

Answer: That is simply because there are websites that lie and claim that Obama’s Kenyan grandmother said that he was born in Hawaii. She said repeatedly in the interview that the sites are referring to that Obama was born in Hawaii. In another interview, she said that the first that her family in Kenya had heard of Obama’s birth was in a letter FROM HAWAII.

If someone keeps saying “she said he was born in Kenya” when she said that he was born in Hawaii, that may convince some people over time. But not a single member of Congress has called for an investigation of Obama’s place of birth, and such conservative leaders as Glenn Beck and Ann Coulter think that the idea that Obama was not born in Hawaii is crazy.

You said: “More likely it has to do with other documentation that at one time he passed himself off as Indonesian; either for his Pakistan visa or for his Occidental application.”

Answer. Did you know that George Bush senior claimed to be a citizen of Bolivia when he applied to Yale? You don’t? There are as many facts that Obama applied as a foreign citizen to Occidental as there are that Bush applied as a foreign citizen: NONE. And, Indonesia has said that Obama was never an Indonesian citizen.

The Wall Street Journal had this to say about the Indonesian claims: "What are we to conclude about someone who refuses to accept an official state birth certificate as proof of birth but expects us to accept utterly preposterous theories with no documentary evidence whatever?'

There is not the slightest evidence that Obama applied as a foreign student. The entire source of the speculation that he applied as a foreign student is from Web sites that hate Obama. The reason that not one member of Congress or one member of the mainstream media have called for an investigation of Obama's college records is because they know that the source of the allegation is from Web sites that do not mind lying and manufacturing myths based on mere speculation.

[Granite2]

You said: “Look, granite, he's hiding something, “

NO he isn’t. The fact that birther sites claim that he is hiding something does not prove anything. The reason that Ann Coulter, Glenn Beck and Bill O’Reilly do not believe the birthers is because they know that the birther sites have lied and speculated without evidence in the past.

Someone else said: “And honestly granite, instead of pushing all this paper at us, why do you not ask Obama for a simple single piece of paper? “

Answer: Obama has already posted the OFFICIAL birth certificate of Hawaii. That is all that he can post because Hawaii does not send out the original birth certificate anymore. It has not sent out original birth certificates since 2001 (http://www.starbulletin.com/columnists/kokualine/20090606_kokua_line.html).

In 2007 Obama asked for a copy of his birth certificate, and Hawaii sent him the Certification of Live Birth, which is what it sends to everyone. Obama had an original birth certificate when he was a child, but since then with all the moves, he lost it. That is why he asked Hawaii for a copy in 2007, and Hawaii sent him the Certification. So, that is all that he can post. But Obama was the first and only US president to show his birth certificate, and the facts on it were confirmed by the officials in Hawaii and the governor of Hawaii.

You also said: “Show me the certificate. Show me. That is a simple and humble request. “

Answer: Here are excellent photographs of Obama’s official birth certificate, the only birth certificate that Hawaii issues (http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/born_in_the_usa.html).

Re: The claim that Obama worked for the CIA.

Answer: This is also loony speculation. In particular, the part about him fighting in Afghanistan.

Re; “A lot of people are now saying that the reason he won't show it is because he can't, it doesn't exist. “

No, there are two reasons. The original birth certificate exists in Obama’s birth file (as the officials in Hawaii said in their first confirmation), but Hawaii simply does not send it out, and second because the Certification of Live Birth is the official birth certificate of Hawaii.

And you said: “notice that the COLB he did release looked brand new, not a crease or wrinkle upon it.”

Yes, it is a new document, printed on a laser printer and sent out by Hawaii in 2007. If you are alleging that the COLB was forged, the McCain campaign looked into that and decided that that allegation is false. With the officials in Hawaii repeatedly confirming the facts on the COLB there would be no point in forging it, and no one other than two people who will not give their real names have claimed that it is forged.

[Rob Crawford]

Um, rockhead -- you don't have to use a different name each time you comment. Nor do you need to cut-and-paste things we've seen a hundred times.

[This is just pitiful. Show me the birth certificate.]

Wow, Granite2, the excuse is now that the Hawai'ian's are concealing it? You are stretching pretty badly.
========

[But someone's sure trying to elide the distinction. How come?]

The founders discussion of 'natural born person' exclude someone born with the divided allegiance of Obama. Wong Kim Ark errs. The point is not yet adjudicated.
=============

[My country tis of thee.]

And by the way, your fella is making it so everyone understands the wisdom of the founders and their concern about allegiance.
===================

[Obama quails in front of state bureaucrats. Hah, hah, hah.]

By the way, did you run that meme about how Obama can't show his birth certificate because it is unavailable to him through Kos pollers? That might explain how you came up with such a desperately pitiful excuse.

C'mon, now, what were you thinking.
==================

[And it ain't America or its exceptional historical record.]

The 25%, granite, comes from people who observe such lame excuses, and people who observe that to which Obama does give allegiance.
==============

[Ignatz]

--In fact, I’ve done some research and it shows that at the time of writing the Constitution the term “native born” was very rarely used. (I don’t know why, perhaps because it might have implied “birth from the natives.) In any case, the term that was used all the time was NATURAL BORN, and the writers of the Constitution never used ever to mean “born of two citizen parents.” They only used it the way that it is used in the common law, in which it meant “born in the country with the exception of the children of foreign diplomats.”--

You are simply wrong on almost every particular in that group of statements.

--And that is what the Wong Kim Ark case ruled too, that EVERY child born in the USA except for the children of foreign diplomats is Natural Born.--

True but that is the problem. The justice who wrote the majority opinion had in fact a few years earlier ruled precisley the opposite way in a somewhat similar case. It is true that WKA is precedent but the contention is it is incorrect precedent which has confounded all of the subsequent cases you cite and the current state of the law, including immigration law.
It's the state of affairs we'd have if Plessey or Dred Scott had never been corrected.

[bunkerbuster]

Granite has provided a rock-solid explanation of why Obama hasn't personally delivered his original birth certificate to Glenn Beck, but I have to think the president also sees an advantage in accommodating the lunatic fringe's self-exposure. The fact that this issue divides conservatives neatly between the merely misguided and the paranoid makes it very convenient and entertainingly Darwinian...

[Ha, ha, they won't let him have it.]

Oh, sure, bb, Obama is intimidated by the keepers of his file. Rockheaded explanation, and Darwinian, as you use it, fits those who'd believe this excuse. Like you and granite.
====================

[There is an obstruction, and pressure builds behind it.]

I don't suppose the number is in existence, but I think it would be instructive to compare this 24% who are birthers now with the percentage of birthers last year at this time. I believe it has grown.
================

[May I remind you that Kos has been promoting horseshit about other stuff besides 'birtherism']

Heh, Kos did contract for polling about birthers with this bogus outfit that fakes polls. So how much of your belief, bb and granite, is predicated on those polls.
=================

[$10 billion for Petrobras deep drilling, a moratorium here. That discrepancy is hiding a high crime or misdemeanour.]

I've long said that George Soros misunderstands an important point, that where there is no functioning democracy his money can help create one, but where there is a functioning democracy, his money can only degrade it.

We are seeing in the Kos polling, and the scurrying for cover of the cockroaches about the Journolist, this effect in America.

If only he'd stuck to public health, like the Gates. But he sneered at them, claiming that public health was easy and public policy not. He's finding out how difficult public policy is, even with his favorite in the White House, and supermajorities in Congress.
=====================

[Can you hear the drumbeat?]

Maybe we've got a clue here. Kos's outfit claimed that a third of all Republicans are birthers, and here Vanity's outfit claims a quarter of all Americans. Hell, if I were Kos, I'd fire that crew too, for so badly underestimating the sentiment out there.
=============

[Why don't you ask him to show you the birth certificate. Hey, it might help.]

The tide of disbelief in this President is rising, and your pitiful efforts here, granite, are building sand castles in the way.
===================

[Threadkiller]

Wong Kim Ark was born in the United States sometime between 1868 and 1873. When he was born, his parents were Chinese immigrants and were permanent legal residents of the United States; but they were not U.S. citizens. In the Wong Kim Ark (1898) case, the Supreme Court ruled that Mr. Ark was a U.S. citizen, even though his parents were not.

The evident intention, and the necessary effect, of the submission of this case to the decision of the court upon the facts agreed by the parties, were to present for determination the single question, stated at the beginning of this opinion, namely, whether a child born in the United States, of parents of Chinese descent, who, at the time of his birth, are subjects of the emperor of China, but have a permanent domicile and residence in the United States, and are there carrying on business, and are not employed in any diplomatic or official capacity under the emperor of China, becomes at the time of his birth a citizen of the United States. For the reasons above stated, this court is of opinion that the question must be answered in the affirmative. (Page 169 U.S. 705, Wong Kim Ark, 1898)

The Wong Kim Ark case does not directly apply to Barack Obama's presidential eligibility, for two reasons:
· The Supreme Court did not rule that Mr. Ark was a natural born citizen. It merely ruled that he was a citizen. Even if Barack Obama's circumstances at birth were identical to those of Mr. Ark, the Wong Kim Ark decision would, at most, only convey citizenship to the President. It would not convey natural born citizenship, which is what the President needs in order to be eligible to hold office (SCOTUS in 'Wong Kim Ark').
· Mr. Ark was granted citizenship because, at the time of Mr. Ark's birth, his parents had "permanent domicile and residence" in the United States and were "carrying on business" in the United States. President Obama's father did not meet these conditions. He was not a permanent resident and he was not doing business in the U.S. He was merely visiting the U.S. temporarily, presumably on a student visa, for the purpose of getting an American education.
Read">http://federalistblog.us/2006/12/us_v_wong_kim_ark_can_never_be_considered.html">Read a little.

[WWW1]

The Wong Kim Ark case ruled that Wong (That is his family name) was Natural Born. It also ruled that he was a citizen. The combination is a Natural Born Citizen.

[Threadkiller]

WWW1,
Please read ">http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=US&vol=88&invol=162"> Minor v. Happersett(1874). If your theory were correct they would not have written this:

...it was never doubted that all children born in a country of parents who were its citizens became themselves, upon their birth, citizens also. These were natives, or natural-born citizens, as distinguished from aliens or foreigners. Some authorities go further and include as citizens children born within the jurisdiction without reference to the citizenship of their parents. As to this class there have been doubts, but never as to the first. For the purposes of this case it is not necessary to solve these doubts.

Regarding ">http://supreme.justia.com/us/169/649/case.html"> Wong, in the majority opinion, Justice Horace Gray also expressed doubts about "natural born". For example, he quoted the following from Minor v. Happersett:

At common law, with the nomenclature of which the framers of the Constitution were familiar, it was never doubted that all children, born in a country of parents who were its citizens, became themselves, upon their birth, citizens also. These were natives, or natural-born citizens, as distinguished from aliens or foreigners. Some authorities go further, and include as citizens children born within the jurisdiction, without reference to the citizenship of their parents. As to this class, there have been doubts, but never as to the first. For the purposes of this case, it is not necessary to solve these doubts.

And I did all of that without making word combinations. I have shown two SCOTUS cases that shy away from an answer. To date, the Supreme Court has not resolved these doubts.

Please have a relevant argument, or at least be willing to look at one.

You will find these facts tough to disprove.

[Ignatz]

I've never seen a competent answer to your objections Bryan only unsupported assertions.

[WWW1]

Minor vs. Happersett did not say that US two parents were required. It only said that if someone had had two US parents and was born in the USA it was certain that she or he was Natural Born. It also said that that was all that was required in that case since the woman involved had two US parents. But the fact that there was doubt does not mean that the court made a decision.

The Wong Kim Ark case, which was after Minor, and is the ruling on the subject, said clearly that EVERY child born in the USA except for the children of foreign diplomats is NATURAL BORN. When someone is both Natural Born and a citizen she or he is a Natural Born Citizen.

The Wong Kim Ark case is the ruling that stands and it is binding law, and it has been referred to favorably by Justice Scalia.

The reason that the US Congress voted to confirm Obama's election UNANIMOUSLY is that the members all believe, along with virtually every constitutional scholar,that the Wong case means that EVERY child born in the USA who becomes a citizen is a Natural Born citizen.

If you are born in Ohio, you are Ohio-born. If you are a citizen of Ohio and Ohio-born, you are a Ohio-born citizen. A Natural Born Citizen of the USA is just that.