Making A List

The Times and AP report on a disturbing invasion of privacy taking place in Utah.  From the AP:

SALT LAKE CITY – State agencies are investigating whether any of their employees leaked Social Security numbers and other personal information after a list of 1,300 people who an anonymous group claims are illegal immigrants was circulated around Utah.

The anonymous group mailed the list to several media outlets, law enforcement agencies and others this week, frightening the state's Hispanic community. A letter accompanying the list demanded that those on it be deported immediately.

The list also contains highly detailed personal information such as Social Security numbers, birth dates, workplaces, addresses and phone numbers. Names of children are included, along with due dates of pregnant women on the list.

These government databases are private for a reason.  Per the Times, this could be either a misdemeanor or a felony:

Improper release of information from state records is a misdemeanor. The medical information on the list, however, from the notations about pregnancies, could potentially elevate the criminal implications far beyond that, to felony charges and lengthy prison sentences, for violation of federal medical privacy laws.

Over at The Upshot (a Yahoo news blog, I infer) Liz Goodwin tells us this:

Anti-illegal-immigration groups split on Utah list

Local and national anti-illegal-immigration groups tell Yahoo! News they are not responsible for the move. But the groups don't uniformly condemn publishing the anonymous accusations — which in turn bespeaks a revealing split in just how far different groups are willing to go in their push for more aggressive enforcement against illegal immigrants.

Ron Mortensen, co-founder of the Utah Coalition on Illegal Immigration, says he objects to the list because there is "no justification" for releasing someone's private information.

...Utah Minuteman Project co-chair Eli Cawley, however, was not so concerned about privacy violations — though he also said his group was not behind the list. "It's probably against some privacy laws," he said on local radio station KSL. "But I think in the interest of preserving our civilization, preserving our society, and protecting the people of the state of Utah, I think that's a greater interest than protecting the privacy of some individuals."

To which I would say that the state legislators had an opportunity to carve out a 'no-privacy for illegals' exemption when they wrote the law, or at any time since.  They didn't, they shouldn't, so book 'em, Danno.

Bob Dane, a spokesman for Federation for American Immigration Reform (FAIR), backed away from the vigilante tactic. He told Yahoo! News that his organization encourages people to report illegal immigrants to an Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) tip line. "If citizens want to help fight illegal immigration, use the tip line. And pressure politicians to enforce the laws," he said. An attorney for FAIR's legal arm helped craft the Arizona immigration law.

Meanwhile, William Gheen, president of the anti-illegal-immigration political action committee Americans for Legal Immigration, said the people behind the list are "heroes" who are expressing frustration with a lack of federal immigration enforcement.

I would like to see even stronger condemnations.  This time it is alleged illegal immigrants which is wrong in itself, but next time?

Comments

[Rob Crawford]

My biggest concerns are how they supposedly selected the people on the list -- are they really illegals? -- followed by concern for the citizens and legal aliens who have been put at risk for stolen identities by the publication of the illegals fake SSNs.

Beyond that -- you want a government to protect you, then either stay where you were born or obey the laws of the country you're traveling to. Almost certainly an unpopular position, and one likely to get me branded as "racist" by the usual suspects, but STFW? Particularly after the story of the elderly man being charged with attempted murder after attempting to defend his property against two illegals, I'm sick of native-born Americans being treated as second-class and worse.

[Rick Ballard]

Good Lord - next thing you know they'll be publishing the names of people who sign petitions in support of particular referenda or donate to campaigns. Where will it all end?

[Undocumented Immigrant]

I believe the convention is to ignore crimes and just come up with a happy euphemism (optionally prefixed by "undocumented") for the lawbreakers when discussing this topic.

So the group that released this information didn't really violate any laws; they are simply "*undocumented* personal records distributors".

[Rob Crawford]

Or the names and addresses of CCW permit holders.

[Chris]

Before you know it they'll go after private citizens, who ask uncomfortable questions, via state databases. Oh, wait...

[Rick Ballard]

The sheriff's department in my county publishes its guest list of miscreants on the internet every morning. It seems as if the Utah illegals are being treated just like common criminals. What an outrage.

[Rick Ballard]

The sheriff's department in my county publishes its guest list of miscreants on the internet every morning. It seems as if the Utah illegals are being treated just like common criminals. What an outrage.

[Georg Felis]

Agreed, the release of this information is a crime. After all, it includes Social Security numbers which have to be from other authentic US Citizens, because as we all know, illegal aliens can't get an authentic Social Security number.

Personally I'm a little suspicious of this information actually being in a government database, because if this were so, most certainly the highly-efficient government would have tracked down these suspected illegals long ago, right?

/sarc

[toroops]

O has a SSN. It's from a series that indicates he wasn't born here, but that's okay cause his dad was a CIA informant and he gets stuff like Harvard and Presidents and stuff.

[Danube of Thought]

"It's from a series that indicates he wasn't born here..."

And what series would that be?

[peter]

OT--Lynne Stewart gets ten years in revised sentence.

[MarkO]

Maybe Lynne can serve the sentence in Utah.

[Danube of Thought]

Illegal immigration saga in Coronado:

Last week a coyote boat with about a dozen illegals on board had an engine failure and washed up smack in the middle of Coronado's Central Beach at dawn. Witnesses saw about a dozen people take off running into the town.

If you look at Coronado on Google maps, you'll see that the town is a virtual island. Only ways to the mainland are the bridge (no foot traffic) or a long, narrow strip of land that connects to the mainland about six miles to the south.

Speculation is that their stateside contact was summoned to the island and spirited them off. Everybody was out checking and locking their garages, but no one found anything.

[PD]

Meanwhile, back where the important stuff takes place:

President Obama arrived back at the White House this afternoon and immediately heralded Senate passage of "the strongest consumer financial protections in history."

In other words, unprecedented, as is everything with this administration.

Strongest protections in history, yeah. I feel safer already, don't you?

[Rick Ballard]

"I feel safer already, don't you?"

No quite as safe as Goldman Sachs.

Hey - there couldn't be any relationship between the BP capping news being delayed for a couple of days to coincide with news of the thieves being let off with a wrist slap, could there?

[JM Hanes]

"They didn't, they shouldn't, so book 'em, Danno."

Damn straight.

[Threadkiller]

"Witnesses saw about a dozen people take off running into the town.

That is because there is no drinking allowed on the beach.
:-)

[bgates]

his organization encourages people to report illegal immigrants to an Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) tip line

and if you don't get a satisfactory response there, complain to their bosses in the nearest Mexican consulate.

But sure, yeah, prosecute the guys who released these names. If we don't finish locking up everybody who's broken a law to attempt to advance a conservative cause, we'll never be able to start discuss what level of community service is too steep a penalty for progressive felons.

[Army of Davids]

This Berwick guy...Our new healthcare czar needs to be fully vetted by congress.

The back door appointment on this should make people furious.

Absolute garbage.

[JorgXMcKie]

I thought we were practicing selective enforcement of laws. If we don't enforce the immigration, why enforce the privacy laws?

[Janet]

Don't kid yourself JorgXMcKie...YOU still have to obey the laws. Me too. I still haven't caught on to how we get exempted from them....be from another country?..be a Congressmen?
Let me know if you find out.

[Rick Ballard]

Janet,

Try a light walnut stain and a Democrat Party registration card. It seems to work fairly well.

[Berwick the Killer.]

It's just cryptic's way of saying there are unanswered questions about his social security number, just as there is with the provenance of his birth certificate. Different problems, though the root is the same; this President's peculiar desire to hide what is expected of most citizens be shown.
==========

[Janet]

Well I was going to go for the "walnut stain" look until they started uber-taxing tanning salons (maybe that is why they did it! don't want anyone cheating!)

[Janet]

I like Undocumented Immigrant's idea -

So the group that released this information didn't really violate any laws; they are simply "*undocumented* personal records distributors".

I'll have to try that with other things.
*undocumented* smoker
*undocumented* tax evader
*undocumented* leash-law ignorer

[Danube of Thought]

Mark Tapscott says if the GOP takes the house it can decline to fund Berwick's position. Anyone know exactly how this works? And dear God, don't let the Repubs go wobbly on this one.

[Army of Davids]

Berwick needs to be vetted.

This backdoor appointment is another insult to those who opposed the healthcare bill.

I hope folks who think of themselves as part of the Tea Party take this seriously.

[Jim]

1,300 names were listed, all with the same social security number. Suspicious??

Hey, we're all for whistle blowers as long as they are on our side.

How do we know which laws they will decide to enforce?

[bunkerbuster]

The debate over immigration is not about whether to enforce the law, but how strictly to enforce it. For example: Even if we agree that tax payment laws should be enforced, we could easily disagree on whether that means every citizen should have to carry documents with them proving they're paid in full, or, indeed, that police should be empowered to demand those documents.

[Jack is Back!]

Good thing it wasn't 'hell week' when they landed. That part of the beach can be just a little cantankerous during that time.

[qrstuv]

BB, in the past you've asked why conservatives often say that progressives like you hate America.

Your stance on illegal immigrants is one reason. To you, America is mere geography. There is apparently no reason or need to preserve its culture.

[Janet]

LUN is a video on Sara's blog about illegal immigrants in Arizona. We have the same type of "trails" all over South Texas.
Our federal government has proven itself worthless at enforcing our laws.
If our borders were secure there would be no 1,300 illegals up in Utah.

[Pofarmer]

Even if we agree that tax payment laws should be enforced, we could easily disagree on whether that means every citizen should have to carry documents with them proving they're paid in full, or, indeed, that police should be empowered to demand those documents.

Well, in MO at least, if you haven't paid your property taxes, you can't get a license, have to show the receipt at the DMV. No need to provide papers, the fact that you have a license is proof. Which, is the problem with illegal immigration. Just the fact you're here, should be proof that you either a) are a citizen or b) have the proper documentation/green card etc. But, our Federal govt has ignored the Southern border and the problem of folks crossing it at will for so long, that we no longer have that assurance, to the tune of nearly 10% of those in the U.S. having the off chance of being an illegal alien. At what point does a population become subversive?

[Cecil Turner]

1,300 names were listed, all with the same social security number. Suspicious??

AFAICT, only 31 of the 1300+ entries included SSNs. Per the Deseret News interviews, most of the folks they identified were in fact illegals, which suggests the SSNs are stolen/fraudulent.

I'm torn on this one. I can't see how identifying illegals is necessarily immoral, nor is revealing those using fraudulent SSNs going to keep me awake nights; but medical information is clearly over-the-top. OTOH, if that's limited to due dates (for the purposes of illegally adding another US citizen), that's somewhat pertinent as well.

[There is subvert and there is revert.]

Aren't you glad they speak a Romance language and are Catholic not Muslim?
=============

['Eclectic activist' is a better term for her.]

Heh, and a progressive activist of my acquaintance calls the latina 'natural Republicans'. I was quite pleased to agree with her.
===================

[Berwick the Killer.]

Medical information is 'over the top' but it will soon be under Berwick's Big Top.
===============

[narciso the harpoon]

They knew exactly what they were getting with
Berwick, they wanted someone who would set up
'death panel' that's why they didn't have the
hearing

[narciso the harpoon]

Doctor Zero, delivers yet again, on the key issues at stake, re the Halperin piece

[Danube of Thought]

Minus 17 at Raz today.

[Janet]

The Dr. Zero piece was great narciso.
"We are being crushed by engines of regulation, taxation, and corruption"

Amen.

[Old Lurker]

"Minus 17 at Raz today."

And yet the rush to statism continues with ever more sweeping 2000 page unread rewrites of the rules of the road in this country.

The puppetmaster must be yucking it up.

[Rick Ballard]

Cecil,

The administration laid out a position in the AZ suit that is akin to a city police department saying that they will no longer respond to petty theft claims in order to "focus" on "real" crime. The due date bit in the lists appears to be an indication that someone, at some level, feels that the level of obvious theft of public money might be deleterious to the general welfare. Perhaps they were motivated by watching California go bankrupt, due in large part to the rather generous services provided to illegals in the "sanctuary" of LA County.

If the Feds declare in court documents that enforcement of the law is beyond their capability in AZ, why should a citizen of UT pay any attention to the law when responding to a perceived public threat near their home?

It's my understanding that the value of the property stolen is one determinant in differentiating a misdemeanor from a felony. The value of the medical care being stolen by the illegal immigrant may well move her to felony status. Is the state of Utah really willing to turn as blind an eye toward felons as the County of Los Angeles?

[Old Lurker]

And if so, Rick, Utah will end as CA is. All those companies that moved to Utah to escape CA now know they can move again.

[Danube of Thought]

police should be empowered to demand those documents

The feds have been empowered to demand immigration documents since 1940. And every legal immigrant is required to carry them.

[hit and run]

We've had a slew of anniversaries over the last several weeks,all of which prompt a joyous celebration.

As they should.

However,today we remember another that is no less a celebration of a couple's love -- but which has been touched by a heartbreaking loss.

28 years ago today,our beloved Bad wed the love of her life,and became Susie Ann Donovan.

God bless Frank today.

[Old Lurker]

I was thinking of Bad just the other day and marveling at how much I miss someone I never met.

[Rick Ballard]

OL,

I keep thinking about Giuliani following Dinkins up in the Great Blue Cesspool. NYC was supposed to be "ungovernable" as it slipped ever deeper into fetid putrescence and Giuliani was able to keep it bobbing on the surface with a firm practical application of the 'broken window' theory of law enforcement.

The 1300 names are 'broken windows' and I'll be suitably shocked, horrified and indignant about their names being revealed as soon as they're off American soil.

[caro]

I am not happy about the list. However, the wailing and absolutely over-the-top indignation would seem more plausible if some of the same was used by the same cast of characters about the NBP voter intimidation.

[Frau Regierungsfeind]

"And if so, Rick, Utah will end as CA is. All those companies that moved to Utah to escape CA now know they can move again."

Joel Kotkin thinks that Bismarck and Fargo are the new boom towns. Of course, he cites energy (coal and gas) and we know how little we are going to need those sources once teh Won's agenda kicks in. Thank goodness my stone grain mill came with a hand crank.

[Frau Regierungsfeind]

Yes, OL, I feel the same.

[narciso the harpoon]

I've looked over some of the old threads from time to time, and I feel the same way

[centralcal]

Ditto, narciso.

[Captain Hate]

Yes I miss bad for sure.

[Jane]

Geez Hit, is your last name Hallmark?

Thinking about bad is the brightest light of the day for me.

[hit and run]

Jane:
Thinking about bad is the brightest light of the day for me.

Me too.

But I was thinking of Frank in my comment.

It should be about him today,not me.

[caro]

Thanks,hit.

[Pops]

""To which I would say that the state legislators had an opportunity to carve out a 'no-privacy for illegals' exemption when they wrote the law, or at any time since. ""

This is just really really stupid.

States should not have to 'carve out' anything for illegals...they are ILLEGAL to begin with. The law simply shouldn't be applied to people who aren't even supposed to be in this country.

And it is impossible to obtain and publish a SSN for an illegal alien, because they don't have one, so it can't be a crime.

If they have one, its either stolen, which is a crime, or its fake, and to use it is also a crime.

I guess what you are truly saying is illegal aliens also have the right to vote, after all, no one has carved out an exemption for illgeal aliens..

You know what this whole illegal aliens thing gets down to is the people who coddle the illegal alien criminals acting like they are not breaking the law and aren't doing anything wrong.

This entire noion that we should look the other way and tolertae it is leading to the complete breakdown of all societal laws and structure.

Once you pick a group for special treatment and make them above the law, don't be shocked and surprised that everyone else stops feeling the need to obey the laws, from littering to paying taxes, to trespassing, why should anyone obey any of these laws of society if they can simply excuse it as trying to make a better life for themselves.

If I am aware of a criminal, breaking federal law, say he's a child rapist who takes his victims across state lines should I not report everything I know about this criminal? Do you not want me to tell the police his address? Whether he has kids in his house, if I know.

Your damn right I am going to inform the authorities everything I know about the criminal and to hell with you if you want to condemn me for it.

What the hell do privacy laws have to do with reporting illegal activity? Its just beyond ridiculous that privacy even comes into play. If I look into someones window and see them smacking a baby around, should I not report it because I was violating their privacy? What complete and utter BS.

[Pops]

""To which I would say that the state legislators had an opportunity to carve out a 'no-privacy for illegals' exemption when they wrote the law, or at any time since. They didn't, they shouldn't,"""

When did this country get to this place where we need to coddle criminal law breakers. They SHOULDN'T exempt illegal aliens from priacy laws?

How else can I prove an illegal alien is using a false SSN if I am not allowed to reveal that number.

This is getting beyond stupid.

How about a convicted felon goes and buys a gunn, but you are not allowed to tell the cops the serial number of the weapon to prove a crime was committed.

Well an illegal alien using a SSN is just as much or more of a crime then a felon owning a firearm, and yet we say shut up about the illegal alien breaking the law or we will prosecute you.

Its beyond ridiculous.

[Pops]

I think bloggers should put their own privacy to the test if they believe illegal aliens should get away with using other peoples social security numbers.

If you think using someone else's SSN is not such a big deal, how about you publish your SSN and offer it up to people to use???????

I mean what harm could possibly occur? They are just trying to make a better life after all, have a heart man.

If a state agency knows someone is here illegally and that person is using a SSN they know some American citizen is being harmed and they simply don't care.

So, if you believe illegals should have use of SSNs , GIVE THEM YOURS. In fact, all those who want to coddle illegals should post their SSNs on the web, thus proving they actually believe in what they espouse.

the fact they haven't just shows they don't mind screwing their fellow citizens for a cheap cup of coffee and a green lawn....

[Jane]

Hit,

Are you still in touch with him?

[bunkerbuster]

QSTRV writes: ``Your stance on illegal immigrants is one reason conservatives say liberals hate America. To you, America is mere geography. There is apparently no reason or need to preserve its culture.''
On the contrary, it's American ideals I love. And I love them anywhere they exist. You, on the other hand, appear to believe that America is an ethnically-based tradition, since you claim it is a "culture" that would somehow be destroyed by immigration. I think it's pretty obvious that you're the one who doesn't believe in the power and beauty of American ideals. Immigrants built this country, including millions of Mexican immigrants. What's more American than the burrito?

[Clarice]

Hit, you are so dear and so good at remembering all these dates. I miss bad, too, and, certainly, puk about whom I often think. there were so many times I was feeling a bt down and they posted something that made me roar with laughter.

[hit and run]

Jane:
Are you still in touch with him?

I only have bad's old email address. Frank said he was keeping it ... way back when. I emailed him yesterday at that old email address ... and that's all I got.

Meeting Bad the one time I did was such an undescribable blessing. I am so much richer for it.

But I really do hurt more now because of it.

It was worth it. I got to hug Bad for an almost inappropriate amount of time.

I wouldn't trade that for anything.