Ground Zero For Stupidity

Mark Halperin lands at Ground Zero for stupidity with this baffler:

Obama's Islamic-Center Stance: Why the GOP Shouldn't Run Against It

First, I suppose it depends on the meaning of "it" - does anyone know what Obama's stance actually is?  That would seem to be a precondition to running against it, or supporting it. 

But after the Friday speech, the Saturday recalibration, and the "not backing off" clarification of the recalibration I think we are left with the message that Obama strongly supports the Constitution and Bill of Rights but has no opinion on the wisdom of building the mosque.  Hey, leadership that's shirking!

But Halperin managed to find something to oppose in all of Obama's oatmeal:

Now Obama has given you an in. At a White House dinner on Friday celebrating the start of Ramadan, the President took a position. "Muslims have the same right to practice their religion as everyone else in this country," he said. "That includes the right to build a place of worship and a community center on private property in Lower Manhattan, in accordance with local laws and ordinances." This remark opened the door so wide that walking through it will be effortless. Even your usually tone-deaf national chairman, Michael Steele, could not mess this one up. If you go full force on the offensive, every Democratic candidate in every competitive race in the country will have three choices, none of them good, when asked about the Islamic center: side with Obama and against public opinion; oppose Obama and deal with the consequences of intraparty disunity; or refuse to take a position, waffling impotently and unattractively at a crucial time.

I think Dems will waffle like their leader and hide behind Mayor Bloomberg.  But let's press on:

Yes, Republicans, you can take advantage of this heated circumstance, backed by the families of the 9/11 victims, in their most emotional return to the public stage since 2001.

But please don't do it. There are a handful of good reasons to oppose allowing the Islamic center to be built so close to Ground Zero, particularly the family opposition and the availability of other, less raw locations. But what is happening now — the misinformation about the center and its supporters; the open declarations of war on Islam on talk radio, the Internet and other forums; the painful divisions propelled by all the overheated rhetoric — is not worth whatever political gain your party might achieve.

Say what?  Even though there are good reasons to oppose the mosque, and even though Obama has refused to take a position, Republicans should not articulate the good reasons because they will be drowned out by the divisive ones?

I am trying to picture Mr. Halperin teaching a math class - "Hmm, Johnny thinks 2 plus 2 might 3.  But if I try to explain that it equals 4, I might be drowned out by kids shouting out that it is 5.  Better to just agree with him...".

My goodness, what an approach to democratic debate.  I would suggest our leaders (and Obama should feel free to step in) might explain the legal and Constitutional rights of the property developers, acknowledge the sensitivities of mosque opponents, and urge putative bridge-builders to reconsider whether reconciliation is best achieved by slapping people in the face.

Mr. Halperin ends by playing the "terrorists will win!" card:

...a national political fight conducted on the terms we have seen in the past few days will lead to a chain reaction at home and abroad that will have one winner — the very extreme and violent jihadists we all can claim as our true enemy.

Oooh!  We know how anti-war lefties fell down keening when people pointed out that their protests emboldened our enemies.  But now, since it is righties that need to pipe down, it's all good.  Excuse me while I poke my eyeballs out (and touch-type).

For heaven's sake.  If people are screaming, it is in part because our so-called leaders don't seem to be listening.  Mr. Halperin's approach - you bigots and Islamophobes are embarrassing me so let's talk about something else - is not going to stop the screaming.

Comments

[Jeff]

sometimes they tell you what they fear the most ...

[Danube of Thought]

Awfully nice of the fellow to offer his advice to the GOP.

Meantime, we are in uncharted waters in the RCP Average:

Approve
44.4%

Disapprove
50.6%

Spread -6.2

[Rick Ballard]

DoT provided a link to this excellent Pat Condell rebuttal regarding the Terror Mosque. It's very worthy of a watch - and forwarding via email.

Mr. Halperin ably demonstrates the amazing depth of thought to be found on the "pro" side - I'd give a precise measurement but my micrometer is in for adjustment.

[centralcal]

I think Jim Geraghty says it best:

If we don't do as Hamas wants, and build a mosque at Ground Zero, then the terrorists will have won.

[Rob Crawford]

But what is happening now — the misinformation about the center and its supporters; the open declarations of war on Islam on talk radio, the Internet and other forums; the painful divisions propelled by all the overheated rhetoric — is not worth whatever political gain your party might achieve.

Ya know, I could have sworn the left has spent the last two years screeching that any opposition to Obama's policies was based on race hatred. I'll believe Halperin's truly concerned about the "painful divisions propelled by all the overheated rhetoric" when he takes on the left over that purposeful campaign of lies.

[bgates]

I think we are left with the message that Obama strongly supports the Constitution and Bill of Rights

Except amendments 2, 9, and 10, and the reading of Article I Section 8 that prevailed for the first 150 years of the republic; he said he's not concerned with procedural niceties like Section 7 either.

[Rob Crawford]

Oh, and as someone mentioned elsewhere, Halperin's the drone who announced there was no need for ABC to be as critical towards claims made by Kerry as those made by Bush, apparently because Kerry's claims were just repeating what all the journalists felt were true anyway.

Or something.

[narciso]

And Joltin Joe, never dissapoints, by that I mean, always, in the lUN

[Clarice]

I don't know. I am certain Halperin would be giving the Republicans his unvarnished best advice cause he really wants the to win on this one. No?
Besides the triumphalist insult in the mosque I am getting the stench of internationalist money laundering and skimming,

Big Peace has a good article on how the Dutch govt is a co-sponsor (not that its legislature was told the truth about it) , that the necessary financial reports have not been filed--and yet again-our DoS piggies have their snouts in this. i'm beginning to suspect that the mosque itself is not the only scandal. It's the Rauf- Tranzi rip off de jour.

[narciso]

Mort Halperin, VP at CAP, formerly IPS, and Agee's endorser at the ACLU, couldn't have
imparted this meme, to David could he,

[Rob Crawford]

and yet again-our DoS piggies have their snouts in this.

The Saudi's best investment, ever!

[narciso]

Do they alternate, Soros takes onedeleterious cause, one week and Soros takes the other

[East Bay Jay]

Shorter Halperin: ignore the mosque Republicans or we're going to call you Islamaphobe, Islamaphobe!

[Darwin]

"If people are screaming, it is in part because our so-called leaders don't seem to be listening. "

Huh. Last time this issue came up, I suggested that it was odd to see righties using the logic of PC ("I am entitled to not be offended!") to ask their leaders to oppose the construction of this mosque with the authority of state. I was repeatedly told that no one here was looking for powerful government leaders to do any such thing.

I guess Tom is looking for our leaders to listen to the screaming and then.. do nothing?

=darwin
PS - Still not getting the point of expending energy on this controversy.. except that Obama keeps hilariously self-sabotaging himself.. ?

[Sue]

is not worth whatever political gain your party might achieve

Political gain? There shouldn't be any political gain from doing the right thing. The story should be why there is political gain to begin with.

[centralcal]

Wow, I have a special link just for Narciso.

HRH Sarah Palin

She looks utterly beautiful.

[Danube of Thought]

"Last time this issue came up" Darwin made an ass of himself by ascribing opposition to the mosque to " the right."

As of this morning the Right welcomes yet another convert in the dwarf Mike Lupica. We get it, Darwin: we're opposed to this thing because it's an insult; you're not. Next we are supposed to conclude that you are therefore our moral superior. Give it up.

[caro]

*About 2,890,000 results (0.09 seconds)*

My current report on a Google search for "victory mosque." 12 days ago it was 9,810.

[Neo]

Mr. Obama acted stupidly. He should have stayed out of this completely. All those years in Rev. Wright’s church probably had him believing that the “separation of church and state” was for saps, but once he entangled church and state he was all on his own.
Mr. Halperin is entitled to his own opinion, but so am I. I see no reason to help those who are busily digging a hole of their own design.

[Danube of Thought]

"I guess Tom is looking for our leaders to listen to the screaming and then.. do nothing?"

Hardly. Let's start with an expression of the nation's opposition to the project. Let Obama encourage the project's leaders to accept Gov. Patterson's wise proposal. But Obama is not the leader Patterson is...

[narciso]

Reiham Salem, at the Agenda, tries yet another
"clean toga", that happens not to fit.

[bgates]

Ground Zero For Stupidity

That's Michelle's job.

[Neo]

Err Force One LUN

[narciso]

It's actually Josh Barro, this time around, in the LUN, who, exactly, but he misses all the issues exactly as if he ran the place.

Thanks, central, although she sees her self
as the farthest thing from regal, has referenced the Book of Esther, in one instance

[Danube of Thought]

A guy at AT recommends using Kelo to put an end to the matter.

[centralcal]

I know, Narciso - Sarah is not regal thinking or acting, I just thought it was a rather well done photoshop, making her look quite lovely.

[Clarice]

Perfect, solution! As I argues the other day, the left had no problem with the govt taking away property and giving it to others when the Kelo case was decided..

[narciso]

I would rather they wouldn't use such a blunt tool as Kelo

[Neo]

"I guess Tom is looking for our leaders to listen to the screaming and then.. do nothing?"

I see the RSCC has noticed that the senior Senator from New York, Charles Ellis "Chuck" Schumer, has no opinion on the mosque, despite never being camera shy.

[narciso]

Now he's like the Ark with all the busted flashbulbs

[Captain Hate]

My God; usually the most dangerous place in the world is to be in between Chuckie Sleaze and a camera.

[narciso]

And the other Mark, McKinnon, has said his piece, the one who said he wouldn't work for
McCain, if Obama was the candidate, three guesses what his stance is

[daddy the wanna' be heretic]

Anyone heard if the Prez has been asked what he thinks of the German's just ">http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5iHIt9JRwyOIxxcNucgE_z7JR9I4AD9HFQ9DG0"> shutting down the Hamburg Mosque used by the September 11 Terrorists?

For it? Agin' it? Or above his paygrade?

And does he think we should boycott the German's for their lack of religious toleration this Ramadan, or is it simply a local issue?

[Neo]

Reid spokesman: "First Amendment protects freedom of religion. Sen Reid respects that but thinks .. mosque should be built someplace else"

[MarkO]

Kelo is a start, but zoning is the answer. Kelo is an extreme form. There will be more elegant solutions once we get away from the idea that building that sty is a First Amendment issue.

[Terrye]

It is just amazing how utterly tone deaf these people are. It is as if they live in another country..in a way, I guess they do.

[daddy the wanna' be heretic]

">http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/2010/08/16/2010-08-16_i_flubbed_on_lockerbie_thug_sez_doc.html"> I flubbed on Lockerbie thug, doc now says
Cancer doctor who predicted Megrahi's death now has second thoughts.

I believe the good Doc here is trying to tell us that when he thought the Bomber had a good chance to live another decade that perhaps he should have said so, instead of screwing up and telling everybody the convicted terrorist was gonna' die within 3 months so that they'd let him out of prison.

[Clarice]

The problem with Kelo and the baseline on Cordoba , again, is the purchasers paid too much for the property, the NYC real estate market crashed and the plan to convert the bldg to a condos failed so they dreamed up this money making scheme (and I think got some tranzi scammers involved). It's unlikely anyone with brains and money will buy this as a commercial site.

[narciso]

You know I might have misjudged Douthat:

Too often, American Muslim institutions have turned out to be entangled with ideas and groups that most Americans rightly consider beyond the pale. Too often, American Muslim leaders strike ambiguous notes when asked to disassociate themselves completely from illiberal causes.

By global standards, Rauf may be the model of a “moderate Muslim.” But global standards and American standards are different. For Muslim Americans to integrate fully into our national life, they’ll need leaders who don’t describe America as “an accessory to the crime” of 9/11 (as Rauf did shortly after the 2001 attacks), or duck questions about whether groups like Hamas count as terrorist organizations (as Rauf did in a radio interview in June). And they’ll need leaders whose antennas are sensitive enough to recognize that the quest for inter-religious dialogue is ill served by throwing up a high-profile mosque two blocks from the site of a mass murder committed in the name of Islam.

[Danube of Thought]

Wow:

Republican candidates have jumped out to a record-setting 12-point lead over Democrats on the Generic Congressional Ballot for the week ending Sunday, August 15, 2010. This is the biggest lead the GOP has held in over a decade of Rasmussen Reports surveying.

A new Rasmussen Reports national telephone survey finds that 48% of Likely Voters would vote for their district's Republican congressional candidate, while 36% would opt for his or her Democratic opponent.

If there is a twelve-point differential in the voting November 2, you're talking about 75+ seats in the house.

[Darwin]

@ Danube : "Last time this issue came up" Darwin made an ass of himself by ascribing opposition to the mosque to " the right."

Yes, in your hallucination this is what happened.

In the actual comment thread, available to anyone to read, I was addressing rightish commentators on a right-wing blog. I didn't address leftish opposition to the mosque because I didn't figure I'd find anyone relevant in the comments here.

Since then, Obama and other national Democrats have come out on one side, and Sarah Palin and other national Republicans have come out on the other. One could reasonably conjecture that right-wing opposition is more significant or uniform than left-wing opposition.

But I'm sure the fact that some lefties are also opposed makes me foolish, somehow. LOL.

=darwin

[Neo]

DoT: can you spell "Tsunami" ?

The history books will talk of the "one-two punch" of Gibbs and Obama in August 2010.

[Darwin]

@Danube:
"We get it, Darwin: we're opposed to this thing because it's an insult; you're not."

What do you hope to accomplish with your "opposition"? You seem to believe it has some meaning or is likely to result in some favorable outcome.. ?

=darwin

[Clarice]

Oh Joy!

Generic Congressional Ballot
Generic Ballot: Republican 48%, Democrat 36%
Rasmussen Reports
Republican candidates have jumped out to a record-setting 12-point lead over Democrats on the Generic Congressional Ballot for the week ending Sunday, August 15, 2010. This is the biggest lead the GOP has held in over a decade of Rasmussen Reports surveying. A new Rasmussen Reports national telephone survey finds that 48% of Likely Voters would vote for their district's Republican congressional candidate, while 36% would opt for his or her Democratic opponent.

65% of Voters Are Angry At
Federal Government’s Policies
Rasmussen Reports, by Staff

With midterm elections less than three months away, nearly two-out-of-three U.S. voters (65%) remain at least somewhat angry at the current policies of the federal government, including 40% who are Very Angry. A new Rasmussen Reports telephone survey of Likely Voters nationwide finds that just 30% are not angry at the government, with 13% who are Not At All Angry. (snip) Yet while 83% of Mainstream voters are angry at the government’s policies, 92% of those in the Political Class are not.

[lyle]

Having Halperin offering advice to the GOP--on any topic, much less this one--is so touching.

I mean, this guy has probably looked into the possibility of a surgical attachment of his lips to a certain someone's ass, so his counsel to the Rs can only be straight forward and worth heeding, right?

[Danube of Thought]

One could reasonably conjecture that right-wing opposition is more significant or uniform than left-wing opposition.

Harry Reid has just joined the right-wingers. It does not appear that Obama either supports or opposes the actual construction, so it's hard to know which side he's on, as scores of commentators have noted in the past 24 hours.

[Danube of Thought]

What do you hope to accomplish with your "opposition"? You seem to believe it has some meaning or is likely to result in some favorable outcome.. ?

Are you nuts? I believe no such thing, and it would take a moron to think I do on the basis of anything I've said.

[Danube of Thought]

But I'm sure the fact that some lefties are also opposed makes me foolish, somehow.

You got it.

[Rick Ballard]

"If there is a twelve-point differential in the voting November 2, you're talking about 75+ seats in the house."

Yep - in August '94 Gallup had the generic split at 46-46 (still at 47-47 in October). The Reps took 54 seats. Today, Gallup has the split at 50-43 with a nice trend line and no targets with which to "personalize" the Alinskite attacks.

The only targets out there are BOzo, Dingy and Botoxic. The electorate will just have to make do with what they have.

[pagar]

"What do you hope to accomplish with your "opposition"?"

Get Democrats to overcome their inherent desire to strip the US of all security long enough to at least act like they care a tiny bit for the US.

Hey look here is a leading far, far, leftist now. He Says:

"The Senate’s top Democrat says a mosque should not be built near the site of the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks."

Once you get Harry Reid supporting America can John Kerry be far behind? Well, maybe not John Kerry, but I"m pretty sure there will be some more Democrats who will side with America.

[Clarice]

We may have to block all roads to the Capitol from the election to the inauguration of the new Congress to prevent the dynamic trio from repeating their magic formula in a lame duck swan song.

[centralcal]

Carl Levin got hit in the face with a pie. Hoping for a video when I get home from work tonite.

And, I think the pie thrower was a gal from the religion of peace!!! Perfect timing, huh.

[lyle]

"Well, maybe not John Kerry, but I"m pretty sure there will be some more Democrats who will side with America."

In a just world, Kerry should have hung for treason 35 years ago.

[daddy the wanna' be heretic]

">http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,2007429,00.html"> Understanding the Oil Spill's Psychic Toll

Time magazine just put out this huge story about how the "Psychic" toll of the Gulf Oil spill has forced young kids to start finger-painting for therapy, while among the older boys, "others are throwing a football to — well, at — one another."

So there's your solution America. Passively absorb the "Psychic Toll" of an Islamic Mosque built upon the Twin Towers Ground Zero wreckage by finger-painting for therapy, or by throwing footballs, not to, but-well- at one another." If that's what cures the dreaded "Psychic Toll" in N'awleans, it oughta' do wonders in Manhattan.

So get over yourselves New Yorker's, and it might also help with the "Psychic Toll" of ">http://www.nydailynews.com/ny_local/2010/08/16/2010-08-16_untitled__bedbugs16m.html"> letting the Bedbugs bite.

[Rob Crawford]

Carl Levin got hit in the face with a pie. Hoping for a video when I get home from work tonite.

Meh. Hope they throw the thug who did it in prison and throw away the key. Long past time to make an example of someone over this kind of crap.

[Janet]

Well, maybe not John Kerry,

LOL pagar!

[Darwin]

@pagar: "Get Democrats to overcome their inherent desire to strip the US of all security long enough to at least act like they care a tiny bit for the US."

Ok. So the goal of months and months of whining is to get powerful Democrats to.. offer statements in which they affirm the legal right of the thing to exist, but express their aesthetic disapproval?

Or are you hoping that they will actually use their Governmental power to like, actually do something to prevent it from being built?

@Danube:
" Are you nuts? I [don't believe there will be any practical result to my whining], and it would take a moron to think I do on the basis of anything I've said. "

Oh. So you're just whining on and on and on and on so that our "leaders" will know how "opposed" you are to this mosque? Hooray for you!

=darwin

[daddy the wanna' be heretic]

Whats that CC?

Carl Levin got hit in the face with an Islamic Pie at Michigan State?

Well naturally this calls for a brand new Mosque and banana cream pie factory to be built at the location. The President says he supports and endorses the Constitutional right to build a Mosque and Pie factory at Michigan State this Ramadan, though he won't comment on the wisdom of actually building it.

BTW, does Levin know how to finger-paint?

[Clarice]

The other day someone--i think BuBu--argued this was too far away from the WTC to matter much. Today from an article in the NYT:

"On Sept. 11, the landing gear assembly of one of the planes used in the attack crashed through the roof of what was then a Burlington Coat Factory."

[Rick Ballard]

"We may have to block all roads to the Capitol from the election to the inauguration of the new Congress"

I don't think it will be necessary but I can list 10 Democrat Senators who will be up in '12 who will gladly pitch in if necessary.

Watching a public hanging from up close is bound to focus their minds on the future.

[Janet]

Obama's Let's Reach for Hope tour LUN

"Like his metaphor about Republicans and driving: put the car in "D" (as in Democrat) if you want to move ahead, "R" if you want to go backward."

Car??? I thought the Dems were against cars. The line should be, "If you want a car vote R"

[centralcal]

Well, the gal was arrested, Rob C. - I highly doubt that she will be in for long. Another violent lefty. She was protesting his support for Israel.

[Porchlight]

Conspiracy thought of the day: Dems are deliberately whipping up the mosque controversy so that when they lose big in November, they can blame it on voter/Tea Party/Republican "bigotry" rather than the fact that they and their President are destroying the country.

Not really very outlandish when you think about it.

[Darwin]

@Clarice:
"The other day someone--i think BuBu--argued this was too far away from the WTC to matter much. [but it was hit by airplane debris from the crash]"

Ah, here we go again. So is the threshold "large chunk of debris" or "chunk of aircraft" or what, exactly? You keep making these references to how close the event was, but appear unwilling to actually draw the line. If you did, you'd have to acknowledge that anywhere you draw the line is arbitrary and based entirely on sentimentality.

I agree with the commenter who proposed that any land that was touched by any of the dust created by the collapses is "too close". No more building mosques in Manhattan, Brooklyn, or points downwind. After all, it'd be an insult too great for the republic to bear.

=darwin

[Clarice]

No, porch, I think that Bloomberg, the NYC Landmarks Commission, Obama and the political elites have gone round the bend and the public has finally reached the boil over point.

[Janet]

Here is a big photo of where the mosque wants to be located.

[Porchlight]

I hope you're right, Clarice. I definitely don't want to be right about my conspiracy idea. I just figured the MSM strategy on this story would be to ignore, rather than to inflame. And yet it's making headlines everywhere.

[Appalled]

Darwin:

The point of public opposition is not to force the government to violate property rights, but to serve notice that the Cordoba Initiative's desire to use its location near ground zero as some kind of inspiration is not working real well. Perhaps, if these folks are as sincere and moderate as their words (if not actions) would indicate, they'll continue their mission, but move to a less inflammatory spot.

[Neo]

The Detroit News reports this occurred during a Q&A session in Big Rapids, MI, and a female 23-year-old Michigan State University student has been arrested for assault and battery (with a pie).

[peter]

You know, if you look on a map there are at least six mosques within three miles of Ground zero, in Brooklyn, Chinatown, Jersey City. Not to mention a huge mosque just eight miles north on 96th street

[Extraneus]

I think there's truth in that, Porch, but I don't see how that helps them. Maybe their egos, I guess.

And as for whether there's something to gain by opposing (and defeating) a dominance move by an implacable enemy, while at the same time increasing an electoral edge over the opposition party, both of whom are allies, well...

[Rosie O'Donnell]

""On Sept. 11, the landing gear assembly of one of the planes used in the attack crashed through the roof of what was then a Burlington Coat Factory."

Yes Clarice, but since the landing gear on the 747's were retracted (therefore inside the fuselage) as the planes ripped into the massive twin towers buildings at 300-400 miles an hour, that would mean that somehow those landing gear were able to pass entirely through the building, exit the fuselage, and then slam through the roof of the Coat Factory building 2 blocks away where the Mosque is going to be built. I'm not buying it.

Personally I think it was planted there by George Bush because he doesn't like preppy jackets from Burlington. He's always been an L.L.Bean kind of creepy Conservative guy anyway.

[DebinNC]

Has any Dem besides Obama openly "welcomed" the mosque? I've been out of the loop since Friday, so maybe I missed it. Just when I think he can't top his acting stupidly record, he does.

[Captain Hate]

But I'm sure the fact that some lefties are also opposed makes me foolish, somehow.

Everything you write makes you seem foolish. Why don't you go to some blog that appreciates your idiocy; assuming one exists.

[Neo]

Jack Tapper:

President Obama on Senate Republicans: 'Obstruct More? Is That Even Possible?'

[Jane]

Darwin hates Christians, Jews and white people. Ignore him.

[Janet]

...or "If you ever hope to own a car, vote R".

[Rick Ballard]

Porchlight,

The progs will go with 'bitter clingers' and trying to put more charges on the expired and overdrawn RaceCard™. It ain't like their song book has more than one page.

[centralcal]

Glenn Beck rented the Kennedy Center for use on 8/27. He was notified that "no prayer" would be allowed.

Glenn refused to back down or compromise, and now as of Friday night, there are no prayer restrictions.

[Rob Crawford]

Ya know, if the "Cordoba Initiative" were, instead, to build a place dedicated to the victims of Islamic violent expansionism, intolerance, etc. and posed it as a place for Muslims to reflect on the dark history of their faith and seek forgiveness...

You know, like pretty much any western cultural site built in the last thirty years.

[Danube of Thought]

So you're just whining on and on and on and on so that our "leaders" will know how "opposed" you are to this mosque?

Are you really so dumb as to think that people post their ideas on Just One Minute in the hopes of prompting legislative action? Try as hard as you can, and see if you can't imagine some other reasons for posting here.

[Rob Crawford]

Glenn Beck rented the Kennedy Center for use on 8/27. He was notified that "no prayer" would be allowed.

I can't see the video -- is there any explanation of why no prayer was allowed?

[Darwin]

@Appalled:
" Perhaps, if these folks are as sincere and moderate as their words (if not actions) would indicate, they'll continue their mission, but move to a less inflammatory spot."

But if they are as sincere and moderate as their words indicate, then why do we believe that they are attempting to use its location near ground zero as "some kind of inspiration"? Because Newt Gingrich said that "Cordoba" means that it's all actually about Jihadi triumphalism?

Your formulation appears to suggest that even an entirely sincere, peace-loving, wahhabi-hating mosque should not be allowed to be built near ground zero. If they are insincere, they should not be allowed to build because their goal is "some kind of inspiration." If they are sincere, they should know better than to build there because.. people will wrongly assume that they mean it as a provocation?

In other words, the murderers were Islamic that day, therefore only their vision of Islam is considered valid in relation to ground zero. This seems like the opposite of what one might prefer.

If they are sincere, how will they know how far away to move? Maybe they'll keep moving away from ground zero in steps until people stop "opposing" them?

=darwin
PS, Danube :
"In addition, by a margin of 52%–31% New York City voters opposed the construction, according to a Quinnipiac University Poll carried out in June 2010. ... A higher percentage of Republicans (82%) than Democrats (45%) opposed the plan."

When 2x as many Republicans oppose something than Democrats, it might be a "rightish" pet issue.

[Rick Ballard]

DoT,

Pray continue with the evisceration and vivisection at your leisure. I'm sure Jane was referring to those of us lacking in the requisite forensic skills.

[Danube of Thought]

You keep making these references to how close the event was, but appear unwilling to actually draw the line. If you did, you'd have to acknowledge that anywhere you draw the line is arbitrary and based entirely on sentimentality.

The fact that different people have different ideas about the location the "line" that so obsesses you does not mean that a substantial majority can't sensibly conclude that, wherever it may be, this site is on the wrong side of it. And of course it is based on sentimentality: so is the mosque itself. What does that add to the discussion?

[Jane]

I was pretending I was on the left Rick - like Janine garafalo or that really stupid democrat operative I saw on Fox.

[DebinNC]

WaPo's The Fix 3 hrs. ago:

An Opinion Dynamics poll conducted for Fox News Channel -- the most recent national survey conducted that asked about the mosque -- showed that 64 percent of people think it is wrong to build the mosque so close to Ground Zero -- including 56 percent of Democrats and 53 percent of independents.

[Old Lurker]

huh. Posting here does not make laws?

Darn. Any law drafted by any ten randomly selected JOM posters would be an improvement over those enacted by recent Congresses.

[Darwin]

@Jane:
"Darwin hates Christians, Jews and white people. Ignore him."

Huh? Where do you get this from?

If I disagree with the usefulness of people using the (typically relativist, left-wing) logic of Political Correctness to attack something they don't like, I suddenly must hate Christians, Jews and "white people."?

I guess anyone who disagrees with you is some kind of inhuman monster who should be, at best, totally ignored. No irony whatsoever here!

=darwin
PS - Your post would be funny if it weren't so sad. I guess centrist folk like myself should be used to purists on both sides imagining us as their mirror image...

PPS - There's a race of people called "white people"? Someone travel back in time and tell my Sicilian forefathers so they don't have to anglicize my last name...

[centralcal]

Rob: Beck says the plan was to have an opening prayer, when he was notified by his attorneys that prayer would not be allowed.

He said okay - We are going to open with a prayer, close with a prayer, and the entire program between will be one big prayer. He even printed up a program and provided it to them. lol.

Beck asked (through his attorney's) where in the contract or the list of usage rules that prayer was forbidden.

Then, all of a sudden, on Friday night, he was notified (again through attorneys) that prayer would be allowed.

[Wax on]

Halperin, Meacham et al are fighting to see
who can polish Obama's codpiece to the
maximum radiance. Sometimes they have to
don hipboots to justify him, and I'm sure
Halperin never shoveled stalls in his
salad days.....but, then an Obama comes
along only once in a millenium.

[Rick Ballard]

Jane,

I know - I just really enjoy DoT's scalpel work. I wish he had been around when Jeff was larding the comments with weak sophistry and casuistry.

[Rick Ballard]

Jane,

I know - I just really enjoy DoT's scalpel work. I wish he had been around when Jeff was larding the comments with weak sophistry and casuistry.

[Appalled]

Darwin:

But if they are as sincere and moderate as their words indicate, then why do we believe that they are attempting to use its location near ground zero as "some kind of inspiration"?

Because the controversy could easily have been avoided by building elsewhere. The importance of the location can be deduced by a refusal to budge. That, and anyone using a crystal ball, or even a bowling ball, could have forseen the controversy over doing something like this.

[centralcal]

Funny, isn't it? You can't pray on the steps of the Supreme Court. You can't sing the National Anthem at the Lincoln Memorial. You can't pray at the Kennedy Center . . .

But, you might be able to build a Victory Mosque at GZ and blast out over loudspeakers the call to prayer?

[Janet]

or that really stupid democrat operative I saw on Fox.

You are gonna have to be a lot more specific than that!

[Rob Crawford]

In other words, centralcal, we have no idea what the basis for the "no prayer" rule was.

[Jane]

Huh? Where do you get this from?

See above. If you don't agree with me, the only explanation is your all consuming bigotry and hate.

Is that clearer?

[centralcal]

Correct, Rob.

LOL, Janet! Yeah, really stupid democrat operative - is there any other kind?

[Darwin]

@Danube:
"The fact that different people have different ideas about the location the "line" that so obsesses you does not mean that a substantial majority can't sensibly conclude that, wherever it may be, this site is on the wrong side of it."

Ok, so lets say that a "substantial majority" concludes that the entire island of Manhattan should not be allowed to have any Mosques at all. After all, if 1 block away is "too close" then 2 blocks away is only half as "too close"!

They'll conclude this "sensibly," of course.

In your view, what, if anything, should be the result?

Believe me, guys, I'm pretty clear that you find the idea of this mosque aesthetically offensive.

What I continue to not get is why you would expend this much energy circle-jerking each other when you cannot formalize your objection and you do not expect your objection, whatever it is, to have any actual practical effect.

We're left with something like "sure, we're defining legitimate uses of private property based on an ideological test, and though we can't define ahead of time what 'too close' would be, we reserve the right to tell you, after you choose to use a given property, whether we consider it 'too close'".

Can't imagine why liberty-appreciating Americans might have a problem with that formulation..

=darwin