Putting The Brakes On The Ground Zero Mosque

Joe Lieberman thinks someone should put the brakes on the Ground Zero Mosque.  But the Landmarks Commission removed a final hurdle, so it looks as if we have a Sudden Vehicle Acceleration problem.

In a helpful contribution to the lefty faith-based initiative backing this project, Jeffrey Goldberg explains that "If He Could, Bin Laden Would Bomb the Cordoba Initiative", since Bin Laden is opposed to moderate Muslims.  Of course, it may be that Bin Laden and his family are building this project, since the developer won't tell us about his financial backers.  Would this project still be a tribute to tolerance if it were funded by Wahhabi money from Saudi Arabia mixed in with some neo-Nazi cash from Europe? 

Oh, well - the developer has promised it will be all right, so of course we have no worries:

Another contentious issue was how the center would raise the needed $100 million to finance the project, giving rise to speculation that the money could come from extremist groups.

Sharif El-Gamal dismissed such allegations, saying the money would come from a mix of equity, bonds, grants and contributions. He also called the building's proximity to the World Trade Center site accidental and said it was purchased to meet the needs of a growing Muslim community.

Accidental?  The building was damaged in the 9/11 attack, so its historic tie to Ground Zero is much stronger than mere "proximity". I'm not fuly up to speed on downtown Manhattan rel estate, but if radical Muslims wanted to buy property destroyed in the 9/11 attack and put up a Victory Mosque, this is might well be the only property.  I doubt even Bloomberg and the Times would agree to a mosque at Ground Zero itself.

WHEN ANALOGIES FAIL:  Peter Beinart went with the "be tolerant, not a bigot" defense of the mosque and kept typing long after his brain turned off:

The ADL’s rationale for opposing the Ground Zero mosque is that “building an Islamic Center in the shadow of the World Trade Center will cause some victims more pain—unnecessarily—and that is not right.” Huh? What if white victims of African-American crime protested the building of a black church in their neighborhood? Or gentile victims of Bernie Madoff protested the building of a synagogue?

Hmm - I get the difference between building a mosque near Ground Zero and building a mosque at a respectful remove from Ground Zero; it's sort of like saying that I don't mind people dancing, but please, not on my grave.

However, I can't make the leap to Beinart's analogy of "victims of black crime".  Were the criminals motivated by religious extremism?  And can Beinart's victims associate some clear geographic region with the crimes, or would the idea be to ban black churches anywhere near anyone who has ever been victimized by black criminals?  That is absurd in a way that the Ground Zero issue is not.

Is there a Shinto Temple at Pearl Harbor? That would show our tolerance, as well as make a bit of amends for the Japanese internment during WWII and a couple of nukes we dropped.  But apparently the nearest temple is five miles away.  What kind of a country are we living in?

THE CARMELITE NUNS: The story of the Carmelite Nuns at Auschwitz is an interesting analogy.

In the 1980s, Carmelite nuns moved into an abandoned building on the edge of the former Nazi death camp to pray for the souls taken there. As with the dispute over the mosque near Ground Zero, the convent's presence escalated into a clash not only between different faiths but between competing historical narratives. As with today's clash too, it seemed intractable until the Polish pope stepped in.

For Jews, Auschwitz is a symbol of the Shoah, and the presence of a convent looked like an effort to Christianize a place of Jewish suffering. Suspicions were further aroused by a fundraising brochure from an outside Catholic group, which referred to the convent as a "guarantee of the conversion of strayed brothers." The protests mounted over the course of several years and various interfaith agreements, and pointed to the real strains that remained between Poles and Jews over a shared history with very different perspectives.

Many Catholics, not just in Poland, could not understand how nuns begging God's forgiveness and praying for the souls of the departed could possibly offend anyone. There was also a nationalist element. Many members of the Polish resistance had also been murdered at Auschwitz. And again like our present controversy at Ground Zero, intemperate reactions and statements from both sides only inflamed passions.

So what did Pope John Paul II do? He waited, and he counseled. And when he saw that the nuns were not budging—and that their presence was doing more harm than good—he asked the Carmelites to move. He acknowledged that his letter would probably be a trial to each of the sisters, but asked them to accept it while continuing to pursue their mission in that same city at another convent that had been built for them.

From contemporaneous NY Times reporting we see that Catholic nuns were not utterly out of place at Auschwitz:

As news of the drive spread, many Jewish groups in Europe issued statements demanding that Auschwitz be preserved as a monument to the mass killing of the Jews. The establishment of a convent, they said, insulted the memory of the Jews killed in Auschwitz. About 2 million to 2.25 million Jews and 1.25 million to 1.5 million non-Jews, mostly Polish Catholics, died at the camp, according to a spokesman for the Simon Wiesenthal Center.

If I were splitting hairs, I would argue that the Jews were killed for being Jews; the Polish Catholics were killed for being Polish.

Comments

[Extraneus]

The fact that the twin towers weren't rebuilt is what makes it a victory mosque. Otherwise it would be in the shadows.

I wouldn't be surprised if a relative of one of the 9/11 victims didn't learn to strap on a bomb belt and take a stroll into the new mosque someday. After all, that's what provocations are for.

[Jane]

From the banks refusing to cash Hassan's check, to the construction workers telling the Imam to pound sand, my optimism is coming back.

BTW I had to laugh last night. Chris Matthews was literally sputtering about that Sharon Angle sound bite about getting the media on her side. Never in the history of earth could Chris imagine the media willfully going along with a candidate's narrative. His guest, Dave Weigel was not surprised because what else would you expect from Fox.

Outrage by the journolisters is just so darling.

[narciso the harpoon]

The Imam fronting this establishment, loves some Hamas, and is backed by a group supporting the Islamist flotilla from months
back, a group called Perdana, which includes
classic American moonbat Dr. Helen Caldicott
and old Krugman fave Malathir Mohammed, who went from regular jew hatred to 9/11 denialism. His papa, was a major figure in the Muslim Brotherhood in the 50s and 60s,
Jr. has declared he is against religious dialog, considers the project an act of da'wah, despite styling himself as a gentle
Sufi. He has pronounced in support of Sharia
courts in Perfidious Albion, his book was published by two outfits of the Brotherhood,
tied to Islamist radicals, one of the contractors is part of the Golden Chain that
financed AQ in the early years, I've been making these points from McCarthy, Geller, Lappen, et al for the better part of three
months.

[narciso the harpoon]

Oh yes, he also said while the fires were still burning at Ground Zero, to Ed Bradley,
that the US was an 'accessory to the crime' of 9/11, I used to have some respect for Goldberg, but denial of reality seems to be a prerequisite of employment at the Atlantic
nowadays, (picture of Andrew Sullivan for proof)

[Clarice]

Dorothy Rabinowitz did the best job on this is the wSJ. Well, she would. Who can top her? It is amazing we don't all rise up and stuff the mouths of assholes like Bloomberg with their own liberal pieties.

The mosque is nothing but triumphalism and if the Mayor and journOlists can't see this, they are even dumber than I imagine,

The Madoff analogy was stupid, too. Mst of his victims BTW were Jews and Jewish charities.

[narciso the harpoon]

They really do double down on the stupid, you would think they had learned something from the KSM trial balloon, last winter, then again, integrity is not something they have any experience with, as this LUN shows

[Chubby]

tech question: is it possible to add click through arrows at the top of long comments pages (in addition the arrows at the bottom)?
it would make clicking through the comments pages a lot easier

[Janet]

Clarice posted this Dorothy Rabinowitz column on the other long thread. Very good.

From the article - ""What are we all about if not religious freedom?" a fiery Mr. Cuomo asked..."

The WaPo editorial today is titled "A Vote for Religious Freedom"

I guess THAT is the decided upon meme. The MSM has decided they now cherish religious freedom. Not so much with Christianity...
What happened to the newly polished Freedom of Worship meme?...

[susan]

"to the construction workers telling the Imam to pound sand"

Sure, the construction workers will tell the the Iman to pound the sand however at the end of the day the Union Thugs will lone up in droves fill their fatted wallets with Wahhabi money

[Extraneus]

Yeah, that was rather stupid, not to mention idiotic (and, of course, dishonest). Were Madoff's crimes the result of his adherence to the fundamental tenets of the Jewish faith? Was he obeying a command from God?

[Extraneus]

Chubby, you probably know this but Ctrl-End will take you to the bottom of the page (at least in Windows).

[narciso the harpoon]

Surely, Janet, they would not hesitate to turn down a Church, be it Catholic, Baptist
or other Bitter clinger, if the tables were
reversed.

[susan]

Like most Ruling Class tyrants, Beinart ideal of tolerance is laughing with glee at Sandra Bernhard's joke:

'IF THAT WOMAN STEPS ONE FOOT INSIDE MANHATTAN I'M SENDING MY BLACK BROTHERS TO RAPE HER'

So the Tolerant will build their mosque across the street from Ground Zero BUT if you are a self-made woman who does not kill her children then the Tolerant will send their black brothers to gang-rape.

Mary-Mother of Jesus, violated and raped by her own devout worshipers.

[rse]

Highly recommend Andy McCarthy's The Grand Jihad for putting this into proper perspective.

Someone from Bloomberg's office should read it.

The image of Bloomberg flanked by various robed and collared supporters was disgusting. It fairly shouted "we are morally superior and you are ignorant".

Um . . no.

[narciso the harpoon]

And this latest bit of lunacy, fresh from a prozac induced haze,

http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2010-08-04/ground-zero-mosque-the-political-reason-to-build-it/

[steve]

To follow up on Beinart, is he implicitly saying Madoff did what he did because he is Jewish?

[Pagar]

Newt adds his Thoughts.

[Chubby]

Extraneous

No I didn't know that and it will help a lot, thank you!! scrolling down has been a bit tedious even though the great content makes it more than worthwhile

[Menlo Bob]

That once vaunted religious tolerance sure got a once over during the Bush years. The sputtering over John Ashcroft holding bible studies at the DOJ told a story much different than Bloomberg's acolytes would like you to believe.

[hit and run]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20100804/ts_nm/us_iran;_ylt=Am8O24rO7uOQyVsmt1hxD6Cs0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTM3NDd1bzlsBGFzc2V0A25tLzIwMTAwODA0L3VzX2lyYW4EY2NvZGUDbW9zdHBvcHVsYXIEY3BvcwMxBHBvcwMyBHB0A2hvbWVfY29rZQRzZWMDeW5fdG9wX3N0b3J5BHNsawNpcmFuMzlzYWhtYWQ->Damn.

TEHRAN (Reuters) – Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad was unharmed by an attack with a homemade explosive device on his motorcade during a visit to the western city of Hamadan on Wednesday, a source in his office said. The source said Ahmadinejad's convoy was targeted as he was traveling from Hamadan's airport to give a speech in a local sports arena. The president was unhurt but others had been injured in the blast. One person was arrested. "There was an attack this morning. Nothing happened to the president's car," the source told Reuters. "Investigations continue ... to find out who was behind it."

[Old Lurker]

Hey Ext...I did not know that either...thanks

[rse]

I know some here are not wild about NRO but this time they nailed it-"Not at Ground Zero".

LUN

Interesting fact about the title of the imam's book outside the US.

Intentional provocation is an understatement.

[Rick Ballard]

This one goes in the proof of brain death among the "political class" file. One might wish that voters in NYC had a chance to voice their feelings through a referendum such as that held in Missouri on BOzocare. Did you hear that sound, BOzo? Don't worry if you didn't. By November you'll be hearing nothing else.

71% is a rather short message, the 'strong letter' following is in the mail.

[Old Lurker]

3:1 Rick.

Hear me now, Bozo?

[Janet]

Surely, Janet, they would not hesitate to turn down a Church, be it Catholic, Baptist
or other Bitter clinger, if the tables were
reversed.

That is what gets me. Freedom of religion to the left means the separation of church & state...never having to see or hear anything "religious". But not with Islam. All of a sudden they embrace freedom of religion. WE have to be tolerant about seeing & hearing Islamic beliefs.
Down in Texas I was talking with a friend that teaches at a University there. She can't mention anything positive about religion in the context of discussing societies moral beliefs...but another professor routinely mocks & tears down religion teaching the same coarse.
Can't say anything positive about religion because of the separation of church & state, but to say negative things is embraced and encouraged.

It is the double standard that gets me.

[Clarice]

Rick, you took the words out of my mouth.

[Rick Ballard]

OL,

This bit is very cheering as well. I don't doubt that the Dems will try to have every Black Panther, Purple People Beater and Black Muslim out trying to intimidate in November but it just ain't gonna be near enough.

[Chubby]

Susan: ((Mary-Mother of Jesus, violated and raped by her own devout worshipers.))

I agreed with your post but when I got to the above part I didn't understand where you were going, but would like to know.

[Captain Hate]

Janet, what makes it even funnier (as in not funny) is that for radical Islam religion is the state.

narc, don't forget Daisy Khan in your list of shills for this abomination, the niece of a leader of the Westbury Mosque in Long Island, a hive for radicals and links in its website to the Islamic Circle of North America, a domestic front for Pakistani jihadist Jamaat e-Islami,

[centralcal]

rse: yesterday, Sue mentioned hearing a debate on Hannity about the Mosque. Hours later on my way to the bank, Hannity was on (airs here much later) and the debate Sue referred to was between a Muslim named Michael and Bridget Gabriel (don't know how to spell her name). She very strongly made the points you noted in your NRO link, to wit:

"As National Review’s Andrew C. McCarthy has documented, Rauf’s book, published in the West as What’s Right with Islam Is What’s Right with America, had a significantly different title abroad: A Call to Prayer from the World Trade Center Rubble: Islamic Dawa in the Heart of America Post-9/11. “Dawa” means Islamic proselytizing, a process that ends in the imposition of sharia. The book was published abroad with the assistance of the Islamic Society of North America and the International Institute of Islamic Thought, which are two appendages of the Muslim Brotherhood, an organization behind much of the world’s murderous Islamic terrorism."

The whole Mosque near 9/11 rubble is deliberate and intentional PROVOCATION.

[Chubby]

((Purple People Beater))

I love their unintended subliminal association with dinosaurs

[Extraneus]

Ctrl-Home gets you to the top of the screen.

[fdcol63]

Janet,

It only makes sense if you recognize that the Left has entered into a pragmatic, realpolitik "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" kind of alliance with Islamists to destroy democratic, capitalistic, and Judeo-Christian Western culture.

In their smug egocentricity and intellectual/moral superiority, the Leftists believe they can achieve this objective with the help of their Islamist allies before the Islamists then turn around and crush THEM.

[Chubby]

Extraneous, you read my mind ... I was going to ask you that.

[Appalled]

One way to think of this is to use an Atlanta example. MLK's boyhood home, the King Center (which features MLK's gravesite), and Ebenezer Baptist Church (where MLK preached) are all within one block of each other on Auburn Ave. Suppose an anti affirmative-action group bought the piece of property across the street from Ebenezer Baptist (an abandoned strip mall), and put up a billboard saying "End Racial Preferences Now", and furthermore put their headquarters there.

How would the New York Times react? How would David Frum react? (I know how the local Civil Rights community would react, but that's a different matter.)

I tend to believe people have a right to dispose of their property however they feel, but it is hard to avoid a queasy feeling about this. Rallying the forces of political correctness against opposition to this is something the usual suspects may have cause to regret.

[narciso the harpoon]

Yes, but as my 'clean toga' friend points out, you can't fault him for who he married
or something, Captn, I was just throwing the first few things off the top of my head.

[Chubby]

the glue that binds lefties to Islam is that both groups share a love of total state control

[MarkO]

The leaders of Islamic terrorism know the weaknesses of this country. They have dressed up a political and military movement as a religion and found us to be a willing host. Once we all come to understand that this "religion" is really an army, we can begin to deal effectively with the problem.

Giving this movement the protection of a religion is simply deadly.

[Janet]

Clarice - on the other thread you asked about the Yuku backup site. Here is the link I bookmarked.

[rse]

"Ms. Khan knows better, because she is also Mrs. Feisal Abdul Rauf, the wife of the main Islamic cleric behind the project. Rauf is no moderate."

From the linked NRO editorial.

I'd never heard of Daisy Khan until today and now CH and NRO are bringing in all these connections among troubling groups.

[Danube of Thought]

Minus 15 at Raz today.

[Clarice]

Thanks Janet. I found a link to it later, but yours is better for some reason. I'll bookmark it, too, in case of emergency.

[fdcol63]

I would give so-called "moderate" Muslims more benefit of the doubt IF they did more to publicly denounce the radicals who are "hijacking" their "peaceful" religion and IF they did more to silence the hateful rhetoric coming from the mouths and pens of the radical imams in their own mosques.

Until they do, and as long as violent Wahabbism is the FASTEST growing sect within Islam, I will continue to view ALL Muslims as a threat.

[narciso the harpoon]

If there was a real DHS, the connections associated with this enterprise, would make
that Afghan powerpoint, look simple by comparison,

[Captain Hate]

O/T The cardinal nestlings are now officially fledglings; I heard them peeping from somewhere other than the empty nest and one chirper is fastened to a branch just under the nest. He/She looks so small that flying right now looks out of the question (it was smart enough to clam up when I went outside to see where the racket was coming from). I just saw the doting father tending to it so it's not like it's been left on its own.

Btw, is anybody disappointed that the NY Repubs are running Rick Lazio against the vile Cuomo spawn? Lazio struck me as a lightweight when running against Her Thighness (not that the MFM wasn't completely in the tank or her) and seems to reflect the party's inability to come up with anything but retreads for office. Of course Steele was brought in to change all that.....

[narciso the harpoon]

Well last time, it worked with Pataki, it's either him or Paladino who really likes the taste of shoe leather, or some Bloomberg type
apparatchik Levy

[hit and run]

I wanted to wish a happy birthday to Obama.

[TheVIMH: Then go ahead and do it]
Too late. The moment passed.

[Extraneus]

The problem is, it's not a sect. Nobody's hijacking anything, and there's nothing peaceful about Islam. Their book says what it says, and for people who believe the book, there's only one thing to do.

For Islam's future, there's only reformation, victory or defeat. No other choices. Reformation would require renouncing much of the Koran, and nobody's talking very seriously about that. So that leaves victory and defeat.

I vote for defeat.

[Captain Hate]

True narc; after the party gave the state Pataki and Scozzafava, I should have much lower expectations.

[fdcol63]

Well, what's frightening to me is the thought of what happens when Islam goes through its own Reformation, as Christianity did.

And even more frightening is the thought that they will go through their Islamic Reformation armed with nukes.

[anduril]

No muslims, no mosque, no mas.

From contemporaneous NY Times reporting we see that Catholic nuns were not utterly out of place at Auschwitz:

As news of the drive spread, many Jewish groups in Europe issued statements demanding that Auschwitz be preserved as a monument to the mass killing of the Jews. The establishment of a convent, they said, insulted the memory of the Jews killed in Auschwitz. About 2 million to 2.25 million Jews and 1.25 million to 1.5 million non-Jews, mostly Polish Catholics, died at the camp, according to a spokesman for the Simon Wiesenthal Center.

If I were splitting hairs, I would argue that the Jews were killed for being Jews; the Polish Catholics were killed for being Polish.

It's not clear why the spokesman for the Wiesenthal Center specified "Polish Catholics." "Mostly Poles" would have covered the situation. However, the Wiesenthal center is using wildly inflated figures. Here's what the ultimate authority (Wikipedia) says:

Communist Polish and Soviet authorities maintained a figure "between 2.5 and 4 million",[50] and the Auschwitz State Museum itself displayed a figure of 4 million killed, but "[f]ew (if any) historians ever believed the Museum's four million figure".[51] Raul Hilberg's 1961 work The Destruction of the European Jews estimated the number killed at 1,000,000, and Gerald Reitlinger's 1968 book The Final Solution described the Soviet figures as "ridiculous", and estimated the number killed at "800,000 to 900,000".[52] A larger study started later by Franciszek Piper used timetables of train arrivals combined with deportation records to calculate 960,000 Jewish deaths and 140,000-150,000 ethnic Polish victims, along with 23,000 Roma and Sinti (Gypsies),[53] a figure that has met with significant agreement from other scholars.[54]

Unlike the Wiesenthal Center, Wikipedia makes a more sensible distinction, based on ethnicity. Oh, I should probably add this:

After the collapse of the Communist government in 1989, the plaque at Auschwitz State Museum was removed and the official death toll given as 1.1 million. Holocaust deniers have attempted to use this change as propaganda, in the words of the Nizkor Project:

Deniers often use the 'Four Million Variant' as a stepping stone to leap from an apparent contradiction to the idea that the Holocaust was a hoax, again perpetrated by a conspiracy. They hope to discredit historians by making them seem inconsistent. If they can't keep their numbers straight, their reasoning goes, how can we say that their evidence for the Holocaust is credible? One must wonder which historians they speak of, as most have been remarkably consistent in their estimates of a million or so dead... Few (if any) historians ever believed the Museum's four million figure, having arrived at their own estimates independently. The museum's inflated figures were never part of the estimated five to six million Jews killed in the Holocaust, so there is no need to revise this figure.[51]

Anyway, it's difficult to understand the mentality of those who would consider it provocative for Poles to mourn their war dead near the site where 150,000 of their approximately 3,000,000 deaths occurred. Auschwitz has a further significance for Poles beyond the sheer numbers. The first Auschwitz victims were largely Polish, and they were largely members of the Polish intelligentsia (a group that contained a high proportion of Catholic clergy). In other words, the Nazi aim was to decapitate Polish society by killing off all educated Poles, thereby making it easier to reduce the remaining Poles to a helot-like status. Thus, the Nazi killing of Poles at Auschwitz represented a deliberate policy aimed at the spiritual destruction of the Polish nation.

This was also the rationale behind the Soviet killing of all Polish officers it could get its hands on. Due to the low educational levels of ethnic Poles at that time, all university graduates were drafted into the officer corps (which needed educated officers), so killing officers was a good way to kill off the Polish intelligentsia.

[Captain Hate]

Ext, reformation would call for a much more centralized hierarchy than presently exists so that has zip chance of happening.

[Janet]

O/T The cardinal nestlings are now officially fledglings;

I love "following" all the birds that nest at our house. Once even raised a lowly abandoned sparrow...named him/her Gimpy because of a bad leg! Fed him dog food & a high-protein paste. Trying to do penance for the millions we killed with bb guns in our youth!

[Captain Hate]

anduril, even though I'm not opposed to your argument per se, in what slternative universe is Wiki considered to be the ultimate authority?

[Jane]

Does anyone else think it is downright weird that the most popular man on earth's family has abandoned him on his birthday?

He's going to Chicago, to sleep in his old bed (with who you ask) and have a party with his old buds. Does that include Bill Ayers? Reverend Wright? Rezko? - oops he hasn't been pardoned yet.

It's weird I tell you.

[anduril]

the glue that binds lefties to Islam is that both groups share a love of total state control

well put. you might also specify that the goal of state control is the transformation of human nature into the image of its founders: neither socialist man nor islamic man are capable of questioning outside their ideological construct. thus each of these groups, in their own ways, puts a high premium on the control of information and public discourse. a bit like those who would like to "shape up" TM's site.

[bunkerbuster]

Tom's point rests on the notion that anyone who claims to kill for Islam is thereby killing for Islam. This is beyond silly. Bin Laden's claim to speak for Islam is not one letter more credible than David Koresh's claim to speak for God or Hugo Chavez' claim to speak for poor people. Bin Ladenism or "radical Islam" is not Islam, and the simple, unassailable fact that the vast majority of Muslim people on the planet have never and will never be involved in killing or threatening anyone. Beyond that, there is the fact that by far the greatest number of victims of so-called radical Islam are Muslims themselves. This because in virtually all Muslim countries, the ruling elite are doing their best to extinguish radical Islam, while the bin Ladenists are doing their best to destroy the Muslim ruling elite.
The idea that ordinary Muslims will consider building a mosque near Ground Zero as a "victory" for radical Islam is obscene in its ignorance. Ordinary Muslims are the greatest, most committed, most involved and most vulnerable opponents of radical Islam. Rather, they consider the mosque, and all others, an opportunity to demonstrate the superiority of peaceful worship and community outreach over mass murder and threats.

[narciso the harpoon]

You really don't want to rest any argument on Frantisek Piper, you really creep me out that way

[matt]

As far as I know, very few Muslims live in Lower Manhattan.There aren't that many people down there anyway.

Most Muslims in New York City, as I recall, live in Queens. So why the mosque at the WTC site? It just doesn't make sense except in the Islamists want to make a statement.

I think we are being snookered once again.

[Captain Hate]

a bit like those who would like to "shape up" TM's site.

Lol; be more wrong.

[narciso the harpoon]

They already have a mosque in the area, which makes this even more infuriating

[Appalled]

bunkerbuster:

Would you agree that the placement of the mosque in that location looks an awful lot like a statement of some kind?

[bunkerbuster]

Extraneous asserts: "There's nothing peaceful about Islam." More that a billion Muslims disprove that every single day. Egypt and Indonesia, the largest Muslim majority countries, are locked in battle against radical Islam and the broad mainstream within both countries wants only peace and freedom and nothing to do with bin Ladenism and its insanities. True, throughout the developing world, radical Islamist gangsters attempt to mask their power grabs as religious enterprises but how stupid do you have to be to take their ranting and selective quotation of scripture at face value?
fcd confesses that he is confident in his bigotry toward Muslims because the media profile of moderate Muslims is just a bit too low on Fox and his other selected sources of news and information. This pretty much tells it all about the how and the why of antiMuslim bigotry. Of course, anyone who bothers to look will find hundreds of millions of moderate Muslims dead set against bin Ladenism and its freaky sadomasochism. As I mentioned, the governments of nearly every major Muslim country are engaged in extinguishing Muslim radicals and have shed far more blood and expended more treasure than anyone else in this pursuit. To suggest that, somehow, moderate Muslims just aren't doing enough is obscene and really a pathetic confession of broad ignorance of what is going on in the Muslim world.

[Rick Ballard]

Jane,

Perhaps we could all embed this link in a "Happy Birthday, Mr. President" email. Just to let him know how much we care.

[anduril]

Ordinary Muslims are the greatest, most committed, most involved and most vulnerable opponents of radical Islam. Rather, they consider the mosque, and all others, an opportunity to demonstrate the superiority of peaceful worship and community outreach over mass murder and threats.

This flies in the face of ALL available polling data taken in the Muslim world.

[Sue]

This is going to backfire on these idiots. By idiots, I mean the progressives that are supporting the mosque.

Any perceived insult sparks riots. Deaths. Beheadings. Stonings. Suicide bombings. The list is endless.

I'll go on record now predicting "perceived insults" in the future regarding this entity.

[anduril]

Egypt and Indonesia, the largest Muslim majority countries, are locked in battle against radical Islam and the broad mainstream within both countries wants only peace and freedom and nothing to do with bin Ladenism and its insanities.

They are also locked in battle against their Christian minorities, aided and abetted by government officials, and do not want peace and freedom for their minorities on any other terms than their forced conversion to Islam--similar to the terms on which Obama wants peace and freedom for A Americans. Read up on the plight of the Copts. The battle between the Egyptian government and the Muslim Brotherhood is over power--both sides want it and only one side can have it.

[narciso the harpoon]

Life in countries like Egypt are complex, read Al Aswani and Soueif for a glimpse of
the intelligentsia in those countries. but
Salafism does have a pretty strong presence
in their public life, that's why most middle
management in AQ, are often likely to be from
that country

[bunkerbuster]

Anduril: I've never seen any evidence of the claim that ordinary Muslims in Eqypt or Indonesia are locked in a battle against Christians. Rather, the evidence shows only that desperate gangster minorities throughout the developing world use religion as an excuse for harrassing the weak, be it within their religion or outside of it.
To the extent you think Obama is some sort of tyrant, I'm sure you'd also agree that his tyranny doesn't reflect your values. Just as certainly, the real tyrannies in Egypt and Indonesia reflect the will of ordinary Muslims even less...Muslims have been dominating Egypt for how long? If they were anywhere near the monsters you seem to believe they are, why are the Copts still there?

[Appalled]

bunkerbuster:

The point of contention on the mosque is not whether Islam is a religion of peace or war. It is whether the mosque is offensive by its nature, and the inevitable use which some worshipers will make of it. (Please explain to me how radical moslems will not make this mosque a pilgramage site to celebrate ITS alleged victory.)

Political correctness has its uses in keeping certain folks from making frequent jackasses of themselves, but consider my Atlanta example above and think about how YOU would react in that situation. I think the left has gotten itself so wedded to "because everyone really hates Muslims, we must love them extra-hard" that it can't think straight.

This said, I would ask others to consider the property rights issues involved. I'm not sure we want government to zone the offensive out of existence. Seems like a violation of rights we hold fairly dear in our society.

[bunkerbuster]

Anduril asserts: This flies in the face of ALL available polling data taken in the Muslim world.
I've seen no polling data on how Muslims perceive the mosque. But I do know that the vast majority of Muslims are not involved in any kind of terrorism and, as I've explained at length, Muslim themselves have shed more blood and expended more treasure than anyone else in battling against radical Islam. It's simply ludicrous to believe that they also support it...

[NK]

Whoa, I am perplexed, I've read several factually accurate statements made by anduril today. I assume anduril will draw some erronoeous conclusions from those facts, still it's good to see factually accurarate statements. As to the mosque, I pass on commenting. Wahhabism murdered my next door neighbor on 9/11 who was on the 102nd floor of 1 WTC. Now Wahhabism has a propoganda victory several hundred feet away. I am disgusted beyond description.

[Captain Hate]

Jsnet, did Gimpy thrive on that diet and did it eventually fly away?

[Rocco]

OT: Evidently the Spanish Police acted stupidly too!

They cited an incident last year in which police detained two US government employees, both of them African-American, for no apparent reason.

I wonder if this could hurt him with the Spanish vote here at home?

(This is my 3rd attempt, please forgive me if this post shows up several times)

[anduril]

Anduril asserts: This flies in the face of ALL available polling data taken in the Muslim world.

Clever. You omit to mention the antecedent for "this," then go on to suggest that the antecedent is "how do muslims perceive the mosque" or "do all muslims engage in terrorist acts."

"This" is your statement:

Ordinary Muslims are the greatest, most committed, most involved and most vulnerable opponents of radical Islam. Rather, they consider the mosque, and all others, an opportunity to demonstrate the superiority of peaceful worship and community outreach over mass murder and threats.

That you haven't seen the polling data that has repeatedly falsified your statement says something about you, but not about the polling data.

Moreover, your statement:

Muslims have been dominating Egypt for how long? If they were anywhere near the monsters you seem to believe they are, why are the Copts still there?

is callous, heartless and uninformed. Your wasting my time. No mas.

[bunkerbuster]

NK: "wahabism" didn't murder your neighbors, terrorists did. Blaming murder on ideology =="the devil made me do it''== is no more logical than blaming it on God. Cling to your bigotry all you like, it's not going to change the fact that hundreds of millions of moderate Muslims, including wahabis, live perfectly peaceful lives, threatening no one, and have done so for centuries. Smearing the majority of a group with the bad behavior of a minority in their midst is bigotry, plain and simple. Your willingness to smear all Muslims as terrorists when the vast majority are demonstrably peaceful is no better than bin Laden's desperate lie that all Christians are war=mongers...

[Walter]

Anduril,

Wiki? Seriously?

I agree that there are countries with muslim majorities which oppress religious minorities. Like say, Algeria. But, then again, they have been spending a very long and bloody time pushing back against radical fundamentalists. Some muslim majority countries don't even push back against missionaries--my coworker did his mission in Malaysia in the early 80's and is yet hale and hearty.

Matt, I suspect the theory behind church location is not always based on adherents' residence. There are probably one or two neighborhoods in NYC that have more Catholics than the site of St. Pats. You might also look at the Scientology Center in LA or many LDS temples--sometimes visibility is a factor.

That said, I'd draw an analogy from Ireland. It is great to be patriotic and celebrate. But there is really no kind reason to march through the neighborhoods of the losers. Every year.

[anduril]

Correction: You're

[narciso the harpoon]

True but the influence of Wahhabism has likely changed the environment there, the brutality of the Algerian experience in the 90s, indicates how brutal a full on campaign against these forces would likely be

[rse]

OT-

The American taxpayer is paying Andy Griffith to sing the praises of Obamacare?

LUN

Oh. Good. Grief.

[Walter]

Appalled,

Probably the best bit of snark I've seen lately.

[Danube of Thought]

I'm on Firefox. I get to the bottom by placing the cursor about an eighth of an inch above the bottom of the scroll-down bar on the right and clicking once. It's instantaneous.

[Danube of Thought]

It would be great if we had a president who would direct his Interior Secretary to make the site of that proposed mosque a national park, and the hell with it. But we don't.

And I want Major Garrett to ask Gibbs, "does the president believe that the 71% in Missouri simply don't understand his healthcare bill?"

And if you haven't read the transcript of Jack Cafferty teeing off on the morbidly obese bureaucratic "Obamanation" created by this administration in just 18 months, you owe it to yourself to do so.

[bunkerbuster]

Appalled is also confused, apparently. "The point of contention on the mosque is not whether Islam is a religion of peace or war. It is whether the mosque is offensive by its nature."
If Islam is a religion of peace, the mosque cannot be offensive.
Your Atlanta example shows the same lapse in logic. You draw a parallel of an organization opposed to MLK's values setting up shop next to an MLK shrine. But Islam is just as opposed to the 9/11 terrorists as you are, possibly even more so, as they are on the front lines against it and, for them, it is far closer to an existential war. I am not standing up for Muslims, I am standing up for reality. Specifically the reality that the vast majority of Muslims want nothing more than to live in peace, prosperity and security and consider their religion a spiritual matter, not a political one.

[narciso the harpoon]

Off thread, does anyone get whiplash from the latest Minitrue, first environmental
apocalypse, now never mind

[Walter]

Is there any way to get to the bottom of the page on the iPhone--Safari or Opera?

[Danube of Thought]

Here's the Cafferty rant. Priceless.

If Islam is a religion of peace, the mosque cannot be offensive.

And if the White Sox play in Chicago, we should eat fish every Friday.

[Janet]

Jsnet, did Gimpy thrive on that diet and did it eventually fly away?

Yeah Captain. Soaked dry dogfood in water until it was soft mixed with the paste (it was some high protein stuff we had gotten from the vet for a gerbil long ago). Force fed the little guy every few hours until it was bigger. Some mulberries & bugs got mashed in sometimes too. Gross but effective!

[bunkerbuster]

In which I bring the data:
83 percent of American Muslims say suicide bombing is never or rarely justified. (I'd love to know why Pew felt it necessary to combine rarely with never, but I could find no rationale in the study for that.)
Only 5 percent of American Muslims have a favorable view of bin Laden, with 58 percent having a very unfavorable view and 10 percent a somewhat unfavorable view. The rest didn't answer.
Case closed, anduril. The Pew's exhaustive study shows that far and away the vast majority of Muslims oppose radical Islam. And there are more numbers saying the same thing about Muslims elsewhere. You should give it a read.
http://pewresearch.org/assets/pdf/muslim-americans.pdf

[anduril]

my coworker did his mission in Malaysia in the early 80's and is yet hale and hearty.

Things have changed in Malaysia since the early 80s. These Wiki articles provide information on religion in Malaysia which will bring you up to speed:

Malaysia - Religion

All ethnic Malays are considered Muslim by Article 160 of the Constitution of Malaysia.

...

The Malaysian constitution guarantees religious freedom. Muslims are obliged to follow the decisions of Syariah courts in matters concerning their religion. The Islamic judges are expected to follow the Shafi`i legal school of Islam, which is the main madh'hab of Malaysia.[86] The jurisdiction of Shariah courts is limited only to Muslims in matters such as marriage, inheritance, apostasy, religious conversion, and custody among others. No other criminal or civil offences are under the jurisdiction of the Syariah courts, which have a similar hierarchy to the Civil Courts. Despite being the supreme courts of the land, the Civil Courts (including the Federal Court) in principle cannot overrule any decision made by the Syariah Courts, as ratified by Tun Dr Mahathir Mohamad in the late 1980's.

Note that in practice that means all ethnic Malays must follow the decisions of Sharia courts.

Christianity in Malaysia - Evangelism to the Muslim community

It has been the practice of the church in Malaysia to not actively proselytize to the Muslim community. Christian literature are required by law to carry a caption "for non-Muslims only". Article 11(4) of the Federal Constitution of Malaysia allows the states to prohibit the propagation of other religions to Muslims, and most (with the exception of Penang, Sabah, Sarawak and the Federal Territories) have done so. While there is no actual legal restraint against Muslims renouncing their faith in favor of another faith, in practice very few Muslims actually convert. This is partly due to the fact it is extremely difficult for Muslims to convert, as there are serious implications under Islamic law, and because Islam has played a major role in the Malay community for centuries, thus resulting into very strong adherents. See also Status of religious freedom in Malaysia.

There are, however, cases in which a Muslim will adopt the Christian faith without declaring his/her apostasy openly. In effect, they are practising Christians, but legally Muslims. Family pressure, and fear of losing one's spouse or children is usually a sufficient deterrent to prevent leaving Islam [9].

Freedom of religion in Malaysia

The status of freedom of religion in Malaysia is a controversial issue. As Islam is the official state religion and the Constitution of Malaysia limits freedom of religion, notably placing control upon the 'propagation' of religion other than Islam to Muslims, a fundamental part of a number of other religions. However, questions including whether Malaysia is an Islamic state or secular state remains unresolved. In recent times, there have been a number of contentious issues and incidents which has tested the relationship between the different races in Malaysia.

[Rocco]

According to John Kass of the Chicago Tribune, Obama's in Chicago to raise money for the mob's banker, Alexi Giannoulias.

[NK]

Bunkerbuster you're ignorant, a nave and a fool and you go to great lengths prove it. It's a waste of time to try to educate you, but to keep my record straight, I'll say this. Wahhabism is the spiritual inspiration of the Taliban, the Muslim Brotherhood and al-queda, etc etc. As you yourself admit those are the terrorists who recruited, trained and sent the 9/11 mass murderers on their way. The Ground Zero mosque is documented to have been planned -and undoubtedly is being paid for -- by Wahhabists. this attack on ground zero is a propoganda attack rather than jet liners filled with kerosene. But these Wahhabists are bin Laden in suits spreading the same lies. You willfully blind yourself to their hatred. As I said, you're ignorant, a fool and a nave.

[narciso the harpoon]

We'd rather you not link Wiki or do us the courtesy of LUning the section in question

[anduril]

This flies in the face of ALL available polling data taken in the Muslim world.

bunky, what's your problem with reading what other people write? There are also issues with the Pew data that I won't even bother with. Since you refuse to do virtually anyone the courtesy of reading their posts before replying, this really is the end. No mas.

[anduril]

I don't give a shit what you'd rather.

[anduril]

For the record, a nave is part of a church. A knave is something else.

[anduril]

We'd rather...

The "royal" we, I presume.

[Jane]

Rick,

Isn't that lovely?

I guess bubu still thinks Obama is The One.

Poor thang.

[daddy the wanna' be heretic]

If anyone who like to hear from a different asshole simply click on today's Charlie Rose show.

[Appalled]

bunkerbuster:

If Islam is a religion of peace, the mosque cannot be offensive.

You know, according to my faith, you will be spending some time in purgatory. And you had better get yourself a gps for the experience. Because I can see your afterlife self hatching this idea --

"This can't be the road to Hell, because it is paved with good intentions."