The Ground Zero Mosque - Not Just Another Building Two Blocks From Ground Zero

In discussing the ground Zero Mosque, much of the commentariat thinks two blocks is a long way away.  For example, here is Josh Barro of the National Review:

Second, the proposed mosque would not be located “at” Ground Zero, but two blocks north of it. So, any federal overlay that restricts development would have to cover not just Ground Zero but an area around it. Again, it is hard to come up with a policy rationale: this area is part of one of America’s busiest office districts, characterized by over a century of high-rise development and redevelopment, which we hope to see continue.

...

As an aside, I think that some of the concern over this mosque, especially among people who do not live in New York City, is based on a misunderstanding of the geography of Lower Manhattan. This is an area that had significant high-rise development before New York imposed setback requirements and floor-area ratio maximums (limits on how many square feet of building you can put on a lot). As a result, the area is denser and more canyon-like than Midtown.

This means you can be two blocks away from something without any sense that you’re near it. City Hall is four blocks from Ground Zero, but you’d never stand there and think “I’m right near Ground Zero.” There is even a strip club three blocks south of Ground Zero, but nobody seems to have noticed that it is sullying the memory of the place.

In most cities, including Washington, 13 stories constitute a very tall building. But in the environment of Lower Manhattan, Cordoba House will be just another structure—which is not exactly consistent with the view that it is a Towering Monument to Jihad. In short, people are overestimating the extent to which this building will interact with, or be noticeable from, the World Trade Center site.

I have spent years wandering the concrete wilderness down there, and Mr. Barro is superficially correct.  However, yesterday Matt Drudge linked to a month-old NY Times story noting that the proposed site was actually put out of service by the 9/11 attack; if this was news to Matt Drudge, my guess is that it will come as news to others as well, and perhaps the site has a symbolic value greater than Mr. Barro realizes.  

Let's hear about the symbolism from the imam leading the project (in last December's NY Times):

The location was precisely a key selling point for the group of Muslims who bought the building in July. A presence so close to the World Trade Center, “where a piece of the wreckage fell,” said Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf, the cleric leading the project, “sends the opposite statement to what happened on 9/11.”

“We want to push back against the extremists,” added Imam Feisal, 61.

Well, pushing back against extremists is one interpretation.  However, symbols mean what people think they mean (Yeah, I'm copyrighting that insight!), so one might just as plausibly argue that this is a Victory Mosque being built on territory destroyed in the attacks.  That would jibe with the history of Muslim conquerors (as well as many other conquerors, obviously).  As to how much other property near Ground Zero was damaged on 9/11 and has this potent symbolism I do not know, but the old Burlington Coat Factory is not just any old site in the financial district.

Now in a strict legal sense, the motivation of the imam counts for nothing - the Constitution guarantees freedom of speech and worship to all people, not just government-approved moderates.  However, I doubt that Mayor Bloomberg would be telling We The Rubes that we should be ashamed of ourselves for opposing this mosque if the imam was on record as getting in touch with his inner Jeremiah Wright and describing 9/11 in terms of "God Damn America".

PROFILES IN COWARDICE: The NY Times covers Sen. Reid's backpedaling and contrasts it with a local boy made good:

Senator Harry Reid of Nevada, the Senate majority leader and a Democrat facing a difficult re-election fight, said through a spokesman that those who plan to erect the Islamic center should look elsewhere. That separates Mr. Reid from President Obama’s support of the developers’ right to build the center.

“The First Amendment protects freedom of religion,” said Jim Manley, a top adviser to Mr. Reid. “Senator Reid respects that but thinks that the mosque should be built someplace else.”

That aligns Reid with his opponent, Sharron Angle.  On to the Times' idea of wisdom and insight:

Representative Jerrold Nadler, a Democrat who represents the district that includes ground zero, said he doubted that the fight over the mosque would inflict much damage on fellow Democrats in the November elections.

Mr. Nadler, whose view is that the developers were entitled to build the mosque at the selected location if they choose, said, “Ultimately I suspect that once this simmers down in a few weeks, people will realize that everybody’s liberty is at stake here.”

Huh?  Nadler respects their right to build there?  So do Reid and Angle, and Sarah Palin, and plenty of critics.  Having the right doesn't make it right.

Nadler and Rep Peter King, mosque opponent, air their views more fully here.  From Nadler:

NADLER: Well, I certainly appreciate the sensitivities of some of the families of 9/11. There are others who have expressed support for it. The press has concentrated on those who have opposed it. But frankly, ground zero is hallowed ground. Two blocks away, first of all, is not so hallowed ground. Second of all, we should not -- government officials should not be in a position of pressuring people where to build their mosque or their church or whatever.

Third of all, as much as I respect the sensitivities of people, there is a fundamental mistake behind it, and that is how can you -- and I can quote any number of some of the people who have commented on it, and what they are saying essentially is how can you put a mosque there when, after all, Muslims attacked us on 9/11, and this is ripping open a wound? Well, the fallacy is that Al Qaida attacked us. Islam did not attack us. Islam, like Christianity, like Judaism, like other religions, has many different people, some of whom regard other adherents of the religion as heretics of one sort or another. It is only insensitive if you regard Islam as the culprit, as opposed to Al Qaida as the culprit. We were not attacked by all Muslims. And there were Muslims who were killed there, there were Muslims who were killed there. There were Muslims who ran in as first responders to help. And we cannot take any position like that.

Obviously, I disagree with his "two blocks away" comment.  As to the rest, I agree, but that doesn't change my mind.  We were attacked by Muslim extremists; this mosque would be a powerful symbol of victory for extremists, it may be financed by extremists, and it may be that, regardless of the motivations of the founder, it will be one day be run by extremists.

If the imam seriously wants reconciliation and bridge-building, he should relocate.  If he wants to give offense (as is his right), he should stay on his current course, and we will see how the debate unfolds.

Personally, I doubt he can raise the money.  Any investor will be calling attention to himself, his family, his business associates, and all past deals, all of which will go under a microscope.  If there is a hint of a whiff of a suggestion of a link to extremists, we will read about nothing else.  Who needs the publicity?

THE DEBATE SO FAR:  Amidst the cacophony I hear my people from Jersey: "Yo, fool, reconcile yourself to this!"  Yeah, I got something for you to tolerate right here, buddy."

My main man, Chris Christie, punted; I guess he doesn't have the body to tap dance.

LET'S PUT ALL THE 'PC' EGGS IN ONE BASKET... Maybe they can complete the mosque quickly enough that it will be available to Khalid Sheikh Mohammed during his NYC trial. 

THE DAMAGE DONE:  Here is more from the December Times:

There was no immediate sign of the fiery cataclysm that erupted overhead starting at 8:46. But out of a baby-blue sky suddenly stained with smoke, a plane’s landing-gear assembly the size of a World War II torpedo crashed through the roof and down through two empty selling floors of the Burlington Coat Factory.

The Sept. 11, 2001, attack killed 2,752 people downtown and doomed the five-story building at 45 Park Place, two blocks north of the World Trade Center, keeping it abandoned for eight years.

Comments

[Neo]

The lost distinction in all of this is that while the 1st amendment allows freedom of religion, it doesn't exempt anybody from building codes, zoning and other government rules and laws that apply to everybody.

I seem to remember (but the search engines don't seem to find any of) the many cases where churches were restricted in their size and placement based on parking and zoning rules.

[Jeff]

given that the building in question was hit by part of the landing gear and fuselage from one of the planes there is a better than even chance that there was also bits of people deposited there as well ...

non NY'ers don't understand the differences in "blocks" in NYC ... there are long blocks (east/west) and short blocks (north/ south) ... yes, city Hall is 4 blocks away, long blocks ...
Oh, and the strip club was there before 9/11 ... or so I've heard :)

It got hit by parts of one of the planes and seriously damaged ... had it also collapsed nobody would be trying to defend it ...

[Sue]

I saw this at American Thinker...what would these same people be saying if the Westboror Baptist Church was trying to locate there? Yeah. Great question.

[Ignatz]

--There is even a strip club three blocks south of Ground Zero, but nobody seems to have noticed that it is sullying the memory of the place.--

Just guessing, but perhaps that's because Carol Doda and Gypsy Rose Lee didn't fly planes into the WTC.

[Danube of Thought]

I love this issue. It's really got the hectoring do-gooders all hot to trot and putting themselves on display for our enjoyment.

[NK]

I agree with TM's posting in the main respect, but disagree with one important detail. The good Iman will be revealed as a let's get along kind of guy if he finds another location. If he pursues the GZM, he will be revealed as an Islamist conquerer holding a victory trophy for the Ummah in the US. We shall see. I disagree with TM about raising the money for the GZM. TM speaks as an infidel dealmaker; the GZM will be paid for by some laundered out arm of the House of Saud spreading Wahabism. That front group won't care about publicity or ROI, it's all about the power of the spread of Islam. There are hundreds of empty mosques in North and South America paid for by Wahabists to plant the flag of Islam in the home of the infidel,waiting for the day of the inevitable conquest by the Ummah. That's what they believe, that's what they do. It takes morally blind schmucks like Mayor Mike not to see that.

[Jack is Back!]

Greg Gutfeld has decided on a name for his gay bar next door: Dialog. You know, he is building Dialog:)

And as far as the Gentlemen's Club down the street, isn't it mandatory to have a strip club close by a place where young Islamists gather?

And as far as a gay bar goes, it will come as a sigh of relief to any taliban member of the mosque to have place they feel comfortable with after prayers and stoning some woman for showing her ankles.

[Captain Hate]

Damn Iggy; you're really dating yourself (in a non-onanistic way) by those names.

[Janet]

There was some deal about the site having a 'historic' designation too. I think it was they decided to NOT give it one. I live in a 'historic' designated neighborhood & it is the perfect means to stop any construction that you want. It is so vague that the board is all powerful in what gets approved.

It's as though someone wanted this thing fast tracked.

[centralcal]

Bill Kristol posts this, and Rush just read it on air.

Beginning of the End - GZ Mosque?

[Captain Hate]

DoT, the amount of preening puts the world's supply of peacocks to shame.

[jimmyk]

the many cases where churches were restricted in their size and placement based on parking and zoning rules.

Yes, I know of such cases. Why has the Greek Orthodox Church, destroyed on 9/11 not been allowed to rebuild?
It's one thing to argue the mosque should be treated like any other religious facility, but this one seems to have been fast-tracked through the system. I don't think it's a stretch to cite the Ft. Hood shooter as a similar instance where authorities not only don't discriminate, but bend over backwards to reverse discriminate, with bad results in the end.

[narciso]

And the Sophist called, and said 'stop it, you're embarassing us' stick to the subject
at hand, not 'look squirrel'

[Danube of Thought]

From CCal's link we get Abdul Rahman al-Rashid, director of al-Arabiya TV and former editor of London’s Arab daily, Al-Sharq Al-Awsat, sounding like a right-wing nutjob:

Some Muslims will consider that building a mosque on this site immortalizes and commemorates what was done by the terrorists who committed their crime in the name of Islam. I do not think that the majority of Muslims want to build a symbol or a worship place that tomorrow might become a place about which the terrorists and their Muslim followers boast, and which will become a shrine for Islam haters whose aim is to turn the public opinion against Islam.

[centralcal]

From my link above:

A column (h/t, MEMRI) in the August 16, 2010 London daily Al-Sharq Al-Awsat by Abdul Rahman Al-Rashid, director of Al-Arabiya TV and the paper's former editor, “A House of Worship or a Symbol of Destruction?” should mean the end of plans for a mosque near Ground Zero.

I do not think that the majority of Muslims want to build a symbol or a worship place that tomorrow might become a place about which the terrorists and their Muslim followers boast, and which will become a shrine for Islam haters whose aim is to turn the public opinion against Islam.”

[centralcal]

lol, sorry DoT!

[Rob Crawford]

Anyone know what Al-Sharq Al-Awsat says about this?

[Captain Hate]

Soooooooo the trolls don't really accurately reflect the attitudes of the moderate muslims that they are forever referencing? Is that shocking to anybody?

[Jane]

The trolls do what they are told. Facts never matter to them.

[centralcal]

I think Al-Rashid gets directly to the heart of matters: some Muslims will consider . . . and, that is the problem.

[centralcal]

ding, ding, ding, Captain!

[Captain Hate]

Jane, I'm sure a script is being prepared to refute that arabic Uncle Tom as I type this.

[narciso]

they have mostly gone along with the Rauf as peace making moderate, and any opponent as haters

[Mike Huggins]

DoT - You got that right. For me this really does help clarify who the "the other side" is.

[narciso]

He does do a bit of the blame shifting, but that is a remarkably candid 'speaking truth
to power' where there are real consequences to this action

[Captain Hate]

Really narc: Countdown to Fatwa starring somebody far more dangerous and just as mentally addled as Bathtub Boy

[Jack is Back!]

The over/under on cleo and Bubu posting on this thread is now 360/210 (comment number).

[Thomas Collins]

Al-Awsat's column should be a must read for Bloomberg, Obama and every other pro-Cordoba House mosque pol. Cordoba House mosque supporters like to preen about how sensitive they are. Al-Awsat points out that a Cordoba House mosque will be viewed by jihadists as a symbol of jihad victory on 9/11, and thus will help jihadists in their battle with non-jihadist Muslims. One would think that a crew (the pro-Cordoba House mosque crowd) so attuned to cultural sensitivity, and so well educated (as opposed to the bitter clingers), could have figured this out.

[Thomas Collins]

I wonder whether those who have classified as Muslim haters opponents of the Cordoba House mosque and skeptics of the approval process will now also classify Al-Awsat as a Muslim hater.

[Chubby]

I wonder if the Kristol find represents a Sunni/Shia or somesuch sectarian divide/power struggle within Islam ..

[Danube of Thought]

I suspect that before they post here Cleo, Darwin and Bubu will want to work on those Dem congressman mentioned in the newer thread.

Oh, this is rich!

[Don]

Hmmm...hosting a Ramadan dinner at the WH but not attending National Day of Prayer events. Defending the right to build this mosque saying religious freedom is for all Americans equally but didn't say anything when Franklin Graham was disinvited to speak at the Pentagon for National Day of Prayer. Past actions hold a better picture for me than all of the current rhetoric!

[Cecil Turner]

. . . become a place about which the terrorists and their Muslim followers boast . . .

That's the rub. Whatever the motives of the builder, this is obviously a useful propaganda and recruiting tool for our enemies. Local zoning restrictions are probably the best legal approach, but the idea that the rest of us have no say (or are restricted in options from religious tolerance to bigotry) is nonsense.

[john morrissey]

If anyone found an endangered two inch long green frog on the WTC site, or the burial ground of a sixteenth century Indian there would be screams from the left and 9000 lawsuits preventing any construction but 3000 murdered souls doesn t hit their button.
The left is not only stupid but heartless as well.

[cathyf]

Yes, I know of such cases. Why has the Greek Orthodox Church, destroyed on 9/11 not been allowed to rebuild?

Don't get too far out front on that... The deal with the Church is that the city and the feds are locating offices and garages for security staff and bunkers for a bomb squad underground underneath the church, and they are paying quite a bit of money for the privilege. Enough that they are basically paying most of the cost of the new church building. But, like any financial transaction, the sellers always want to deliver less for more money while the buyers want more for less money. What's slowing down the church construction is that they are haggling over price...

[Clarice]

If the Greeks were smarter they'd notify DoS they were converting en masse to Islam and they'd get enough money to complete the deal PLUS free trips around the world.

[Ignatz]

--Damn Iggy; you're really dating yourself (in a non-onanistic way) by those names.--

Heh. They were before my time but I have no idea what any more current ones might be named.

[bgates]

In most cities, including Washington, 13 stories constitute a very tall building. But in the environment of Lower Manhattan, Cordoba House will be just another structure

Oh! Then the Cordoba House wouldn't really stand out unless a bunch of other skyscrapers in Lower Manhattan were suddenly leveled somehow.

[daddy the wanna' be heretic]

I can't find the link but I still vaguely remember Mother Teresa, in about 1993, (right around the first time the adherents of the Religion O' Peace tried to destroy the Twin Towers), being denied permission to take an abandoned Bronx building and renovate it as a Rehab Center because it didn't have an elevator in it for the disabled.

So golly, I sure hope this Cordoba place has all the handrails and guardrails and escalators and elevators and no lead paint, and especially no residue from the asbestos dust that rained down from the ceiling as the landing gear from the 747 came roaring through the building on it's murderous crash in the name of Islam. (And that's not even to mention the extremely deadly and poisonous hydraulic fluid residue from those landing gear Hydraulic lines).

As a comparison, the EPA out here is banning 100LL (Low Lead) aviation fuel because it supposedly puts off 2 parts per million of lead into the environment in a basically uninhabited territory that is half the size of the Continental United States, and the EPA has determined that that is hazardous to humans and other living animals. Since that's their criteria, I suggest we immediately put this project on hold, and do a decades long series of studies (as least as long as those very important Oil Drilling studies in the Chukchi) to verify that the combined residue of airborne asbestos and lead paint and victims pulverized human remains and gasoline fumes, and hydraulic fluid etc in that enclosed building all total less than the equivalent 2 parts per million in an area the size of Alaska---something like .000002 parts per million combined might be equivalent. If after a decade worth of Enviro studies and Legal Challenges etc, the readings top out at combined values above that .000002 factor above, then Safety demands we stop this dangerous project immediately in the interests of Public Safety and Health. Otherwise, we're allowing something to be built that is even more dangerous than that Alaska snowman that Democratic Senator Mark Begich banned from being built in a private yard in Anchorage as a Public Safety Hazard.

Think of the children. Please.

[Sara (Pal2Pal)]

Exactly, John M.

Native American burial sites are federally protected. National cemeteries and battlefields, such as Gettysburg or, say, the USS Arizona memorial, are federally protected. Try building anything, let alone a mosque on those sites.

Personally, I think the WTC sites should have immediately been declared a burial site and preserved as a memorial to those who gave their lives that day by act of war against the United States. This sacred ground was not declared a protected burial site for one reason: MONEY! The dollar signs in the eyes of the NY mayor and the developers.

If those commercial airliners had been bombers or fighter jets carrying missiles, the same people ranting on about the Imam's religious freedom would be screaming about collateral damage and the deaths of thousands of civilians. Those two planes that hit the WTC buildings were used in the same capacity as a bomber or missile launching weapon. The collateral damage was extensive, destroying the building where this mosque is being proposed to be built along with thousands of lives and the destruction of blocks of buildings. Landing gear instead of bunker busters, spewing fuel instead of hellfires, but the intent and the damage on a par.

Oh wait, these were American businesses and buildings, American lives, they don't count in they eyes of lefties.

As to liking or hating Islam, I don't care enough about Islam to do either. What I do hate is an organization of psychotics operating in the name of a religion that allows for women to be mutilated, to have their nose and ears cut off, that allows women to be stoned or beaten to death, that is based on killing or enslaving all nonbelievers.

[ajay]

Al-Qaeda Operative Says Ground Zero Mosque “Terrible” Location for Recruitment
http://wp.me/pIP1s-5w

[Danube of Thought]

Al-Qaeda Operative Says Ground Zero Mosque “Terrible” Location for Recruitment

So what? Nobody's objecting to it on the grounds that it will be a recruiting site.

[Sara (Pal2Pal)]

Ground Zero Mosque’s Hidden Websites: Follow the Shariah

[Sara (Pal2Pal)]

Nobody's objecting to it on the grounds that it will be a recruiting site.

I am, as one of many reasons. The fact that al-Qaeda is denying it, is all the more reason to believe that is one of the purposes.

[Sara (Pal2Pal)]

Obama is such a disgusting excuse for a ________.

Obama: Property rights for Muslims but not for Jews

But if Obama is motivated by a belief in civil rights that is so strong it propels him to take on deeply unpopular causes in an election season, then one could reasonably expect that his support for civil rights would be absolute. That is, one could expect him to use the same yardstick for all groups, in all places and at all times.

But for Obama, there are some groups who must be denied the same civil rights he upholds as absolute in his defense of the plan to build a mosque at Ground Zero. As Obama has made clear since his first days in office, he believes that Jews should be denied the right to their property in Jerusalem, Judea and Samaria simply because they are Jews.

[...]

Obama IS so firm in his belief that Jews should be denied civil rights in Israel’s capital and in the heartland of Jewish history that he has provoked multiple crises in his relations with Israel to advance this bigoted view.

Almost from his first day in office Obama has struck out a radical position in which he has insisted that Jews must be prohibited from building anything – synagogues, homes, nurseries, schools – in Judea, Jerusalem and Samaria on land they own. Jews – Israeli and non-Israeli – should be barred from exercising their property rights even if their construction plans have already been approved “in accordance with local laws and ordinances.”

At the same time, Obama has insisted that Israel take no action to enforce its “local laws and ordinances” against illegal structures built by Arabs in Jerusalem, Judea, or Samaria.

[Sara (Pal2Pal)]

Bill Whittle Weighs In On the Ground Zero Mosque Controversy with a good treatise on moral cowardice.

And make no mistake, the BS being spouted by darwin and BB and our president our driven by moral cowardice.

[Papa Giorgio]

.

Very very good post. I will reference this post the next time I blog on this matter... which will probably be tomorrow morning. Here is mine for the day.

Tearing Down That Which No One Believes-The Left and the Ground Zero Mosque

.

[matt]

The mear fact that part of any debis landed on this building would make it a potential place too marter the ones responsable for 911.
Belive it when i tell you this location was planned and knew it would put americans of all races and religions split, we loose eather way it goes dammed if you do dammed if you dont ,its gonna make it look like were insesitive too there right too practice there faith, there is no need too create more hate and never ending pain ny and its victims go through every day .
And who is too say who is going too be used by just good muslims not all are bad but lets get real let the people who dyed that day have proper peace and closure too that horrific day the affects me daly since it happend I hope in the intrest of the ones suffering they being the political end do the right thing ,just for the record i have nothing against mulims just the radical groups that live too create fear in the name of something they call there religion its so twisted from what the coran realy potrays.

[sen de]

News came in last night Burlington Coat Factory is planned in a converted mosque in Buraidah, Saudi Arabia http://bit.ly/a8Vys1