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September 14, 2010

Comments

Rocco

But to come out and announce they wouldn't support her during her acceptance speech doesn't help.

Congrats to McKenna...I forgot my glasses and wondered if I spelled his name and address correctly

Rocco

But to come out and announce they wouldn't support her during her acceptance speech doesn't help.

Congrats to McKenna...I forgot my glasses and wondered if I spelled his name and address correctly

Rocco

Hopefully I voted twice too

centralcal

Per Dan Riehl, apparently Karl Rove met with the 9/12-Tea Party people last December to try and get their support for Castle. They said "no way."


bishophill.squarespace.com

Andrew Montford's got a nice blog at the L!ink U!nder N!ame.
================

DebinNC

After Brown's victory, why didn't anyone challenge Coakley for AG?

narciso

Coons is still running on the Obama agenda, which is enormously unpopular, why does Rove
forget all that, all of a sudden,

centralcal

Looks like Dan got the Rove meeting in Dover, DE from Michelle Malkin.

See LUN

Neo
“The Boston Tea Party was protesting abuse of power. This is now trading public power for the abuse of private power,” Clinton said

I'm not seeing this.
Since when do voters abuse power ?

Rick Ballard

The unemployment report is coming slow this morning - I wonder if the Dem "big news" is meant to overshadow a bad report? I'm betting a little on September being 'Layoff a Dem' month by small business owners.

Melinda Romanoff

Neo-

At least he got the power part of the equation right, he just doesn't realize the side of the rope he's on.

Captain Hate

Maybe the O'Donnell victory will serve as a shot across the bow to state Republican parties to stop feeding us crap sandwiches and telling us it's prime rib. It would've been nice here in Ohio to have a chance to vote for somebody that believes in low taxes, wouldn't support Oscammer's small bidness boondoggle and doesn't get weepy when John Bolton acts in America's interests in a primary instead of being faced with an unchallenged RINO versus a commie in the general. The Repubs ignored the term limit plank in the Contract with America at their own peril. Maybe that eunuch Rove has been in the wrong party all along.

Rocco

Maybe if Bush were a bit more conservative domestically, the Independents would be breaking for the GOP? I think they share the blame here.

Jack is Back!

Well, well, well.

To wake up this AM and find out that what Della wears is a new Jersey Girl. And then to find out that the NRSC will not support her (I gave up supporting those turds in 2008). Of course, the Saul Alinsky life-time award for lock-in and fire demon missiles goes to Mike Castle and his ilk. But then I also woke up to the latest polls showing Marco Rubio up over 16pts. on another political charlatan, Charlie "I am toast" Crist. Today the planets are aligned and the world is sane.

Thank you St. Jude Thadeuss

Melinda Romanoff

You guys keep calling for MayBee like it's a birthday, or something.

geezer

Ya think H.Ross might take interest in sponsoring hiself a Senator? His loose change would offset Soros in a Delaware heart beat.

Pray with the Bishop.

Still can't get over the chutzpah associated with the meme that Michelle squelched the vaccine research from its association, in her mind, with the Tuskegee stuff. The analogy between the deliberate neglect at Tuskegee and the voluntary and ethical medical research proposed for HPV is completely inappropriate, and that that is not challenged is absurd.

1st. If in fact the meme is true and she believed it, and acted upon it, then it shows what an extremely shallow intellectual she is, or so biased as to be a positive danger.

2nd. If the meme is not true, then we're under the spell of disinformation.

3rd. Those casting the spell either A. don't understand the inappropriateness of the analogy, or B. so despise the rest of us that they think we 1) can't figure it out or 2) can't do anything about it.

It's worse than we think.
==============

Can't get enough of that Librul Guilt, Librul Guilt, Librul Guilt.

Yeah, yeah, I know, it's all posed at 'White Liberal Guilt'.
=======================

Captain Hate

Is there a bigger turd in the punchbowl than John "we can't win the Senate " Cornyn? Does he get extra RNC money for making dumbass statements? I want all those bastards gone.

Rocco

She sat in the pews and listened to the racist rev spew garbage about our government infecting black men with the HIV virus! Twenty years leaves an impression I would imagine.

Cecil Turner

At least now there's a choice. If DE voters choose "more of the same," so be it. Seems to me it's a self-limiting exercise.

I'd also note the polls had O'Donnell "up by three" or "too close to call" . . . when it was actually twice the higher estimate.

Finally, the GOP leadership needs to start respecting the will of voters, and stop trying to triangulate a brand of "Dem lite" to win tactical advantage in close races. Slowing the growth rate of government is not enough . . . we need some actual pruning of expenditures. And electing someone like Castle, who could be expected to support anathema like cap-and-trade (provided he got his beak wet), is really not much help. Moreover, if his brand of squishy centrism were to be rewarded, we could expect more of the same.

And an Unfathomable Throat to swallow it.

Yes, Rocco, I can envision a scenario in which she believed the analogy was appropriate, sad as that is as commentary on her belief systems, but why it the meme being propagate to we polloi as anything remotely tenable that a rational person would believe. There is no comparison of the Tuskegee vs the HPV trials, except that both are labeled as 'medical research'.

It takes very shallow thinking to buy into that sort of belief
================

Melinda Romanoff

Jonah Goldberg addresses the events of last night, and the success of a grassroots organization that didn't even exist 2 years ago.

Very interesting observations.

Captain Hate

How does CNN expect to be taken seriously when they have as an analyst for primary results the crater-faced choad-huffing extremely unfunny and demonstrably ignorant Bill Maher?

Danube of Thought

So what if O'Donnell loses?

It means that the Dems have one more seat in their quest to retain 50.

Minus 14 at Raz today.

Melinda Romanoff

Kim-

On a side note, did you happen to pick up the Purdue story I linked about 10 days ago?

Had to do with solar flare predictions.

Hip, Hip, Hoiray!

'to us polloi'. Sorry, Ma.
=========

Jack is Back!

Cecil,

GOP leadership? Isn't that an oxymoron? The problem I see is that there is no cogent leadership nationally at the GOP. They are vertically and horizontally fragmented. That is why the Palins of the world are able to jump in and make a difference. She seems to be the only "national" GOP personality that is willing to accept the mantle of leadership. Jim Demint to so extent has also ejected from the death-star and is orbiting in his little safety-pod.

When will the GOP accept the facts of life regarding the Tea Party phenomenon and create a clear & comprehensive manifesto of their principles and what they will do with their congressional powers if given them by the American people (ala the Contract with America). Boehner's little five pt. plan and the Young Guns bible are one either two limited or two, who has time to read a book on policy before deciding who the hell to vote for. At least the Tea Party has a mantra of less government, less taxes, less regulation, less spending. It ain't much doesn't fit the lexicon of progressive eastern establishment elitist politics but it means something to fly-over America.

The lack of true leadership, annunciated principles and a common language, common sense plan we can all believe in is seriously missing. Until then, the Tea Party is the only driving force that makes sense to the angry mob!

And Oh Boy, Below; Livingston and Penn.

I missed it Melinda, but I'll go look for it. A Carrington Event is going to be a big mess one of these days, just when, even kim doesn't know.
====================

Rob Crawford

Since when do voters abuse power ?

When they don't vote the way the establishment wants.

Why do you think the Elites are so desperate to not enforce voting requirements *AND* grant the franchise to the criminal class known as "illegal immigrants"?

Danube of Thought

Interesting discussion at Powerline re the Buckley Rule vs. the Limbaugh Rule.

Try this thought experiment: As best you can determine it today, the probability that O'Donnell, if nominated, will win in November is A%; the probability that Castle, if nominated, will win in November is B%.

If A is zero and B is 100, for whom do you vote in the primary? If A is 20 and B is 80? And so on...

What are the numbers at the point where your decision changes?

rse

On the Minority/ Women offices story, that $58 million is too low as there are comparable provisions in the health care bill.

This will sound sarcastic but is not. This is an employment rope to all those ethnic studies and gender studies majors and an incentive for higher ed to keep and push these programs.

When the Rubio campaign was just catching fire last year and the establishment Reps were still pushing Crist, Rubio was speaking at a library in the Panhandle. The Reps called the fire dept to complain the crowd exceeded the bldg's capacity to harass the Rubio campaign.

Yes-too many Rep's care most about the winner being one of "theirs".

Floods only have one direction; they all go down.

Hey Jack, a rising tide floats all.....what, you say the river is rising?
=============

Swan Drive Hamburg Curve.

DoT, I look at that curve, and it's a laugher.
=================

bgates

Since when do voters abuse power ?

"Clinton's a nice guy, but who ever said he always told the truth?"

That quote is from the absolutely incessant, front-page, prime-time news coverage of the Democrat Civil War, encapsulated by the flailing Democrat candidate for governor of the largest state in the union publicly insulting a Democrat former President.

I mean, that would be front page news, if it weren't for this blockbuster about Dave Castle not endorsing Christine O'Donnell in Rhode Island.

PD

This story tell us that come November, a new kids book written by President Obama will hit the shelves: 'Of Thee I Sing: A Letter to My Daughters.'

Perhaps that will be corrected by publication time to the more accurate title:Of Me I Sing?

Melinda Romanoff

Kim-

No need to look.

Clarice

kim, It has taken you this long to catch on that MO is dumber than rocks? That her world view is shaped by racist disinformation?

Melinda Romanoff

And to be fair, I got the link originally through this Insty link.

bunkerbuster

By 2012, will Palin actually have less executive experience than she had in 2008, given she quit public service for show biz?

jimmyk

Still trying to get you JOMers interested in the NY governor's race...

Mixed news in New York: Doug Hoffman, who got stabbed in the back by Scozzafava, lost in the GOP primary to the party-backed dullard. But Tea Party candidate Carl Paladino trounced Lazio 65-35. He will go up against Andrew Cuomo in November.

Paladino makes O'Donnell look like Olympia Snowe by comparison. (For example, he sent out a mailer scented like rotting vegetables saying "Let's take out the trash in Albany.") The GOP squishes in NY are saying the same things about him that they're saying about O'Donnell:

“We just handed him the governorship,” said Bryan Cooper, 43, a teacher and a Republican district leader from Manhattan. “We handed Cuomo the governorship.”

Boring Lazio would have gotten his respectable 47%. I can imagine Paladino actually beating (or losing badly) to Cuomo. The other interesting thing is that Lazio got the nomination of the "Conservative" party. If he runs as a 3rd party candidate he could really hand the governorship to Cuomo.

Janet

What are the numbers at the point where your decision changes?

This is playing a game rather than voting for the candidate one would really prefer....and the game is manipulated by insiders and the MFM. "That candidate CAN'T win & here's a poll to prove it"...like Bill in AZ was saying about JD Hayworth.
I might vote for the lesser of two evils in the general election, but in the primaries I will vote for the most conservative candidate. Even if they have a tan, smoke, eat fatty foods,....

bunkerbuster

The Tea Party is starting to look less like the GOP's decade of failure made flesh (pasty) and more like a brilliant, if desperate, political marketing move by the Republicans.
The Democrats swept to power primarily because the Bush administration managed to lose an unnecessary war simultaneously with tanking the economy. It didn't help that a series of conservative leaders were involved in corruption and gay sex scandals, but the GOP might have weathered that had either the economy or the war gone better.
So by 2008, the Republican "brand" was "contaminated." The party would have no choice but to rebuild from a narrow base. But how to do that? Not only had the party brand become toxic, it's ideological themes -- military aggressiveness and tax cuts as an economic panacea -- were also exposed as responsible for the failures.
More important, perhaps, the GOP base itself felt it had been sold short by the Bush administration's willingness to increase spending and acknowledge the inevitable limits on American military adventurism.
So the GOP couldn't simple advocate even harder for Reagan/Bush conservatism. Nor was it in a good position to "triangulate" the way Clinton's Democrats did, because its political base had increasingly narrowed to include only white males with physical security issues, gun fetishists and right-wing Christians.
Enter the Tea Party as a "new and improved" GOP. It advocates exactly the same policies as the GOP, but it is not the GOP. Thus, your typical identity conservative can still imbibe Bush rhetoric and positions without having to defend the results of the Bush team's policies.
It is no secret that the Tea Party is funded and organized by GOP operatives, including Dick Armey, former GOP house majority leader and, of course, promoted by Fox News Channel, a GOP subsidiary.
Moreover, the Tea Party has no written platform and none of the formal policy development mechanisms of a real political party. This allows the party to simultaneously identify itself as supporting a wide range of constituencies, without having to take any stands that might hurt it. The GOP, for example, stands in opposition to abortion rights, gay marriage and affirmative action and in support of gunmakers' rights to sell automatic weapons and cop-killer bullets. The Tea Party has signaled it's right there with the GOP on each of those issues, but no one can call them on any of those issues, because they have no formal policy process.
The Tea Party is the GOP's subsidiary attack dog. It can make all kinds of noise about how terrible immigrants are, how scary and intolerable Muslims are and what a scary dark man Obama is without tainting the "responsible" GOP and without carrying any of the Bush failure's baggage.
This not a perfect plan, of course, and quite a few establishment Republicans are getting burned by upstart challengers backed by the Tea Party. But these upstarts vary from standard GOP candidates in name only, and will certainly vote party line with the GOP if they're elected.

Like Lincoln said, ``you can fool some of the people all of the time.'' Those would be the Teabaggers.

Jane (sit on the couch or save your country)

If A is zero and B is 100, for whom do you vote in the primary? If A is 20 and B is 80? And so on...

What are the numbers at the point where your decision changes?

Isn't that precisely what we are accusing the people in power of doing: I'll vote for Cap n Trade because the democrat leadership wants me to.

My vote is important to me in more than a strategic way - and frankly given the current atmosphere, I'm not convinced O'Donnell can't win.

jimmyk

Thus, your typical identity conservative

Yawn.

narciso

Paladino's got the money, much like Scott, and NYers are in an "We're mad as hell, and
we're not going to take it anymore" mood. Obamacare, the GZM issue, how many times does
one get kicked in the face, before you fight back, it may be like the Delta's 'a futile act, but we're just the ones to do it'

Ranger

A great comment from Instapundit this morning from the plug of his interview with Rasmussen:

Rasmussen’s — extremely timely! — book is well worth reading, for anyone who wants to understand what’s driving the Tea Party movement. And it’s interesting that he notes, both in the book and the interview, that voters aren’t as flighty as politicos claim. They keep voting for people who promise lower taxes and smaller government, and they keep seeing those promises broken. (bold added)

I think that is really the key. The Ruling Class never understood that what got Obama elected wasn't any promise to Federally micromanage healthcare or drive up Federal spending. What got Obama elected was "Your taxes will not go up one dime" and "Net spending cuts."

Obama basically ran on a watered down Tea Party platform (with a little class warfare thrown in), and lots of independents voted for that.

That was the promise of "Change" that Obama pitched, and end to the Ruling Class club that runs DC.

The fact that people now wonder where the Tea Party came from seem to forget that a huge amount of the passion for Obama was actualy the same Tea Party ideas. The fact that Obama never mean a word of it doesn't mean it wasn't what people were voting for.

the early morning on bunkerbuster's world

It would be interesting to wake up on a world with 2 suns.

sbw

Jummyk--Doug Hoffman, who got stabbed in the back by Scozzafava, lost in the GOP primary to the party-backed dullard.

Don't be too sure Matt Doheny is a dullard. I met him standing on the sidewalk after an interview with our reporters. We talked for about five minutes, after which I decided to give him a copy of my book. He says he reads between campaign stops.

A few days later he wrote a nice note singling out four or five chapters with comments, mentioning those he particularly agreed with.

Now he is not smart because he may agree with me, but he is smart because he tries to understand things. Perhaps the party backed him because, rather than a hack, he is a hope.

Dave (in MA)

I'm guessing the Wasilla/Fairbanks dumpster divers are on their way to "Deleware" as we speak.

Captain Hate

By 2012, will Palin actually have less executive experience than she had in 2008, given she quit public service for show biz?

What is the troll dumber in: Math or geography?

PD

NRSC will not support O'Donnell

Perhaps any of us who gets a phone call from them should ask directly: Will the NSRC support O'Donnell? If the answer is "no," the followup is, "So the NSRC supports the Democrat, then, is that it? And you want money from me?"

DebinNC

RE NY...somewhere today I saw Andrew described as "Status Cuomo". This doesn't seem to be the year to play it safe, hunker down, and win.

Janet

We have been inching toward the left for decades. Being manipulated by the media, entertainment industry, & the elites. IMO we really do need to make a stand & vote for who we want rather than who we are fed.
A good example is gay marriage - the media, entertainment industry, & the elites keep pounding how popular this is, while the issue is voted down when presented to the people.

jimmyk

Don't be too sure Matt Doheny is a dullard.

Fair enough, I pre-judged Doheny because the NY GOP is so ridiculous I find it hard to believe they could pick a strong conservative. But this could be the blind squirrel finding the acorn.

Rob Crawford

What is the troll dumber in: Math or geography?

False dilemma. The correct answer is "both".

Clarice

DoT, One lesson I did learn from Cost was that state polls are very unreliable. FWIW

Captain Hate

jimmyk, I'm extremely encouraged that Lazio got dumped because I didn't see him faring any better in November than he did in his pathetic performance against Stalin-Rodham, which should've disqualified him from future high-exposure contests.

Jack is Back!

bubu,

Why is it necessary to make a political statement devoid of fact and end with a homophobic insult? And why do progressives like yourself revert to such ad hominen tag lines? Shouldn't any argument or dissent stand on its own merits?

For me, its simple - you can call me right-wing extremist, you can call me racist but you can't call me dependent on the federal government for my existence and my families future.

Let me ask you what your counter point is to my political principles and inclinations:

1. I believe more in individual liberty than class coverage.

2. I believe the Federal government (whether under the Reps or Dems) has over-reached its constitutional authority in a number of areas (health care, education, energy, housing) and shirked its constitutional responsibility in other areas (i.e. illegal immigration).

3. I believe in less taxation, less government involvement in my life and less regulation of my life and the life of business.

4. I believe in less government spending that is not funded by a balanced and thoughtful, and constitutionally authorized budget.

5. I believe in funding the states if the federal government makes laws (that are constitutionally acceptable) but doesn't support the funding of executing those laws.

6. I do not believe it is the Federal government's responsibility to bail out private businesses to the benefit of unions only or to bail out banks and insurance companies because some ex-wall street guy says so.

7. I do not believe the Federal government has any role in the education of my child or any one else's children outside the service academies.

8. I do not believe the Federal government has any right to tell me I have to have health insurance or I will pay an IRS fine.

9. I do not believe the Federal government has any role in home ownership outside the initial benefit to qualifying vets.

10. And lastly, I do not believe the Federal government has any role or right regarding my health, my wife's health or the health of any class of people (i.e. women and abortions).

There is too much government in our daily lives and they would be much better if the government would butt out and let us decide as parents, families and local organizations what is best for us in our own distinct environment. One size does not fit all.

bgates

If A is zero and B is 100, for whom do you vote in the primary? If A is 20 and B is 80?

You're implying the probabilities sum to 100%, and you're leaving out important follow-on events.

What if A is 45, B is 70, and there's a 40% chance that if B wins he becomes a D?

DrJ

I forget who called what Republicans are facing as a hostile takeover, but they were correct.

That was Dick Armey, in a WSJ editorial.

Pagar

From the Washington Examiner Link Clarice put up at 08:05 AM.

"O'Donnell may win in November. And that's what is scary because, given the implications of the ISI suit and questions about her financial record, an O'Donnell victory in the general election could be the start of embarrassing problems for the Tea Party movement and damaging distractions for Republicans in the new Congress at the worst possible moment."

A town where Alcee Hastings has been an accepted member of Congress for years despite his impeachment, where they are lead by a person who can't or won't show his American birth certificate or school records, who has never met an anti American leader he didn't like etc, etc: is going to learn damaging things about a person who is a Republican tea partier.

How dumb do the establishment people think we are?


Janet

To see where a Dem. light Republican Party will go, a good example is to look at Protestant denominations that have so watered down their core beliefs that they now believe anything/nothing. Their members are dwindling. The media champions the leaders from these watered down churches, but their pews are empty. It is the orthodox Bible believing churches that are growing.
Conservatives have the winning message & ideas. We just need strong, bold leadership that will articulate the truth & not be intimidated by the chattering class.

Jack is Back!

Janet,

Amen. This is all about "we the people" versus the "political class" and that includes folks like bubu who believe any person or movement that wants more personal freedom and less government are unworthy of understanding the nuance of progressive philosophy.

At one time we were a 50/50 nation (i.e. 2000 - 2008) but then the independents moved heavily left (many not knowing it) and are now disappointed and see that elections have consequences. The same can happen after 2010 or 2012 but I see that the indies still want to stay that way but only if the political class moves away from the progressive agenda they are imposing on us.

Obama, Reid and Pelosi have had a much greater effect on this calculus than Palin and Beck. I didn't need either for me to understand that what has happened since the 2006 mid-term is wrong, wrong, wrong for the health of the country.

Dave (in MA)

Jane, you might enjoy this from the comments section of the http://bostonherald.com/blogs/news/lone_republican/index.php/2010/09/14/send-marsha-another-message/>"Send Marsha another message" article over at the Herald:


...
Holly, how very impolitic of you to refer to Martha Coakley as Marsha. Are you a junior high school kid? Because that is how you come off. No astute voter will take you seriously. Show some class.

Comment by Chris Mellon - September 15, 2010 @ 1:00 am
Chris, if you don’t like her being called “Marsha”, take it up with your tingly-legged namesake on PMSNBC.

Comment by Dave_in_Canton - September 15, 2010 @ 2:13 am
Marsha, Marsha, Marsha, Marsha, Marsha, Marsha, Marsha, Marsha, Marsha, Marsha, Marsha, Marsha, Marsha, Marsha’s gonna be retired, get used to it moonbats.

Comment by Paul S 01-06-2011 - September 15, 2010 @ 8:31 am
All you moonbats better go to jimforag.com and read what it says there.

Change is coming and that’s all that is going to be left in Marsha’s pockets when she loses her job in November.

Comment by RecallDeval - September 15, 2010 @ 8:46 am
“We didn’t just make it. We CRUSHED it!”

Comment by Massgopguy - September 15, 2010 @ 9:14 am
If McKenna is right, the moonbats are going to go crazy with all the Marsha, Marsha, Marsha talk over the next 49 days!!!
...

narciso

True, JiB, Pelosi and Reid, were the source of the backlash but Sarah and Glenn are the channel for it, through the tea party. If one was actually paying attention, you could see
the wave forming, but the NRSC has chosen not
to do so,

Captain Hate

One thing the Scott Brown campaign showed is what a dimwit Coakley is when addressing anything that isn't scripted. I'd have to think that the recent memory of that in voters minds as well as Scott Amireault pointing out how she was shamelessly complicit in the railroading of his family should have her supporters very concerned.

DebinNC

LOL, Dave(in MA)

Pagar

"There is too much government in our daily lives".

There are thousands of these reports every day.
$5000 fine for growing too many vegetables on his 2 acres.

Americans are losing their freedoms to the faceless bureaucrats who control every aspect of our lives. While the government insists that they must hire millions more of them every year to destroy what ever freedom is still left.

Barbara

By 2012, will Palin actually have less executive experience than she had in 2008, given she quit public service for show biz?

bunkerb - Are you that guy that called me from the NRSC a while ago? He sounded desperate and deluded, and so do you.

Pagar

"NRSC has chosen not to do so"

There may have been a slight change in NRSC attitude. See Comment by Unseen on this Riehl world Post.

Jane (sit on the couch or save your country)

Dave,

That's hysterical and so fitting.

JIB, it would be so nice if Bubu told us what he believes in, assuming he believes in something.

Jack is Back!

Jane,

Bubu, like his contemporaries on the left, or to give him the benefit of the doubt on the margins of the left, have no beliefs that would resonate with us. They are elitists in that they look down on the people of the right as if they were so much trifle. I have no idea what they want. It is hard to believe that there are sane, hard working people out there who want unlimited immigration regardless of legality, who want to have the government take care of them cradle to grave, who have no respect for our founding values and ethics, who believe that Islam is a religion of peace but have no examples to show for that, who believe government is the answer to every problem and that the results of individual initiative should be taxed so that it can pay for those who have no initiative.

Is that what you believe, Bubu?

bunkerbuster

I favor limited government, low taxes and self-defense as the only legitimate use of state violence. The government should not be in the torture business, not only because of the stark limits on its effectiveness, but primarily because torture is simply too much power in the government's hands. If we can't trust the government to decide who gets a kidney transplant, how in the world can we trust it to decide who gets waterboarded or, indeed, beaten to death like the guilt-unproven detainees at Bagram and Abu Ghraib?
Nor should the government be involved in promoting prejudices against minority sexual preferences. Gays and lesbians should have any and every right that all citizens enjoy, including marriage, of course, along with adoption and protections from workplace discrimination, etc.
School prayer? Not on my dime. Abortion rights? Let women decide for themselves, not the nanny state.
The real debate between conservatives and liberals isn't over the level of fundamental freedom or government power -- conservatives demand an even more powerful nanny state than liberals do, they just want it to protect them from different things.
Conservatives want a nanny state to protect WASP cultural traditions and global prerogatives, using almost any means necessary. Liberals want a nanny state to protect the environment and nurture the roots of education, while confronting the roots of crime, corruption and global conflict.
My problem with conservatism isn't its goal of limited government. I agree with that. I also agree with the essential role of free markets in the economy. Where I disagree is in how to achieve that in America.
An illustration: while Americans may be the freeest by most measures, they are certainly not in all. In Japan, for example, you can happily sip a cold can of beer on a train or a bus or in a taxi and munch on you lunch at the same time. No one would ever think of bothering you about it. In America, I've seen people ejected immediately from public transport for nibbling on a sandwich. And in most locales (god bless New Orleans) it is illegal to drink a cold beer while walking down the sidewalk.
Similarly, countries like Singapore and Hong Kong are ranked at the very top of the Heritage Foundations economic freedom table, yet their governments are the ultimate nanny states. Singapore's government literally owns the press while its ruling Lee family will prosecute anyone and everyone who makes the rather obvious allegation of nepotism.
So it's obvious that human freedom cannot be obtained simply by wishing it. The idea, for example, that the best way to cut government spending is to starve it of tax revenue first, has proven to be disastrously ineffective.

Jack is Back!

Ooh, Bubu, you are so easily offended but I now can tell you have never served - have you? If so, give me your MoS, unit and years. Waterboarding is mandatory for all US Air Crews and special operators including a lot of combat service deployments. Not only did I go through waterboarding years ago but it was nothing compared to survival school and cold weather school. Also, Abu Ghraib had zero to do with interrogation or torture as you describe it. Give me an example you know of to be unequivocal of America using torture in interrogation. Waterboarding is not torture only to the UN, Human Rights Watch, Amnesty International and the Euro-winnies. You are probably alive today to make all your free speech statements in English as a result of the pre-emptive violence some employee of America's armed and intelligence service affected on a bad guy who would rather see you dead than to give you the room to express yourself. I used to live in Singapore before they cleaned it up. If abolishing chewing gum helped then I am in favor of it. But since when do you equate nanny state with conservatism? You must be joking. The last thing I would ever want is the government telling me what I can do and when I can do it. Just because Bloomberg is a republican doesn't make him a conservative. In fact, he is more big D democratic in his thinking than even Nancy Pelosi. The nanny state you speak of is the one the liberal progressive movement has already imposed on us.

Jane

state violence

Obama hasn't passed that one yet, but he's trying.

Bubu - you don't believe what you say - if you did you would never ever ever have voted for Obama.

MayBee

Hong Kong is NOT a nanny state.

bunkerbuster

Hong Kong government-subsidized healthcare:
`` It has always been the Government's fundamental philosophy that no one will be denied adequate medical care due to lack of means. To ensure that this principle will be upheld after the fee revamp, recipients of Comprehensive Social Security Assistance (CSSA) will continue to be waived from payment of their public health care expenses.''
http://www.ha.org.hk/visitor/ha_visitor_index.asp?Parent_ID=10044&Content_ID=10047&Ver=HTML

Housing?
Public Rental Housing: The provision of assistance to
those in genuine housing need continues to lie at the heart
of the Government’s housing policy. As at March 31, 2010,
about 2.06 million people (30 per cent of the population)
lived in public rental housing (PRH) estates. The stock
was about 742,500 units.
http://www.gov.hk/en/about/abouthk/factsheets/docs/housing.pdf

And what kind of nanny would let her charges spit on the sidewalk?
From Hong Kong's Department of Justice:
If any residence or related facilities (e.g. water tank, sewage pipe, refuse container) are in such a state as to be dangerous to health, the health authorities are empowered to require the owners or occupiers to make improvements.
If any waste is found in any common part of a building, the health authorities may require the owners and occupiers to remove the waste. If any waste is found on a canopy, the health authorities are empowered to require the occupiers of the unit to which the canopy relates to remove the waste.
If any premises are infested with vermin, the health authorities are empowered to require the owners or occupiers to destroy the vermin.
No occupier shall obstruct any scavenging operation or dispose of any waste in such a way as to obstruct the operation of any cleaning worker.
No spitting is allowed in public places.
Used tissue paper, masks and other waste shall not be disposed of in public places.
http://www.doj.gov.hk/eng/public/pub20030001.htm

Free speech?
On Feb. 13, 2009, the government issued a code of conduct for the Chinese news assistants of foreign correspondents that threatens dismissal and loss of accreditation for engaging in "independent reporting." The same day, the government announced it would create a "blacklist" of Chinese journalists deemed to have engaged in "illegal reporting."
http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2009/03/18/china-new-restrictions-target-media

But hey, they keep their taxes low, especially for those businesses with enough guanxi not to have to pay any at all…

I'm a gonna tell Antnee about that.

TNX, Melinda, for the link to Spurrock and neutrinos and radioactive decay rates.
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MayBee

You are stretching the definition of Nanny State. Press freedom doesnt fit in

The waste laws exist because people literally threw their babies' diapers and other humsn waste off their high rise balcony to accumulate on the grounds. This was brought to the publics attention during this SARS epidemic. The no hocking laws came about because people would hock up big phlegmy lugies on the street, even near foodvendors at the market.

But irbid not a government that nannies the individual regarding individual choices. They won't tregulate salt or smoking or fat or housing zones.

They donlove the public service commercial yelling people to be good.

MayBee

Sorry iPhone means I can't see what I'm typing

MayBee

Sorry about the typing.

Anyway, yes, Hong Kong is overseen by a communist government. Press freedom is iffy. They have a lot of government-sponsored programs, although that isn't nanny state.

You can smoke and drink and eat and build and wear what you like and cook foods and raise your kids in a very independent manner there. Sure, they'll have the public service ad about the importance of brushing your teeth or using different chopsticks for eating than for preparing your food.

And yes, they have public housing programs but living on the dole is not the thing. It will take you nowhere and it isn't acceptable. It is a hard-charging, ambitious, personal accomplishments rewarded atmosphere.

You will not be directed on how to live, nor will you be coddled cradle to grave. That's what a Nanny State is.

cathyf

MayBee, years back I read a claim about Hong Kong when it was still under British rule. It claimed that their system worked because of several interlocking things:

-- Lack of local politics. Because they were ruled by the Brit foreign office, there was no local politics so people did productive things.

-- Rule of Law. The Brits were royally screwing up their own country with socialism, but they mostly ignored HK and so the laws were stable and well-enforced without utopian tinkerers.

-- An adequate safety net. HK had a safety net for the unemployed and the unlucky, but because there was so much economic freedom there was a better payoff in productive work for virtually everyone. So the safety net mostly got used by people who were somehow disabled -- mentally ill, retarded, etc.

It seems that the communists have left HK pretty much alone in these aspects...

MayBee

cathyf- that pretty much nails it. Their housing program is used by a wide variety of people. They have blocs of public housing, but even professionals can qualify for government assistance in purchasing an apartment (of their choice). Their medical program is very basic and a private network thrives as well.
Luckily for Hong Kong, China seems to have decided to adapt its model for its own big cities like Shanghai, rather than the other way 'round.

daddy

Right around handover time a few Hong Kong Politicians resigned in order to protest a policy that was being instituted in the SAR Special Administrative Region (Hong Kong) by the folks taking over. The new policy was that elections for political office would continue in the SAR, but the Mainland Based Communist Structure would have the power to appoint 51% of all Politicians. Thus in the elections, even if every candidate of some non-Communist Party won their contest, they ultimately lost 49 to 51% in the big picture. Haven't followed it now for a few years, so can't cite any particular articles etc, but assume that end game is still whats going on.

MayBee

Daddy- I know the Communist party is fairly heavy handed in interfering the politics, including the continual delay of democracy.
It isn't really a politically free society, especially compared to us. Their justice system is still fair.
But they haven't set up a nanny state.

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