Obama's View On Gay Marriage Evolving Devolving

Obama met with progressive bloggers and surprised no one with his admission that he will flip-flop on gay marriage eventually:

"I have been to this point unwilling to sign on to same-sex marriage primarily because of my understandings of the traditional definitions of marriage. But I also think you’re right that attitudes evolve, including mine," Obama said in response to a question from Joe Subday of Americablog.

"I think that it is an issue that I wrestle with and think about because I have a whole host of friends who are in gay partnerships. I have staff members who are in committed, monogamous relationships, who are raising children, who are wonderful parents.  And I care about them deeply," Obama continued. "And so while I’m not prepared to reverse myself here, sitting in the Roosevelt Room at 3:30 in the afternoon, I think it’s fair to say that it’s something that I think a lot about. That’s probably the best you’ll do out of me today."

Later, Obama seemed to suggest that legalization of gay marriage is inevitable. "The one thing I will say today is I think it’s pretty clear where the trendlines are going," he added.

The trendlines are as clear as Obama's lack of leadership.

Interestingly, Obama is poised to flip-flop back to the position he held in 1996, when he unambiguously supported gay marriage.  Evidently in the interim he acquired a more nuanced view of traditional definitions of marriage, or a more nuanced view of how to read polls.

When the Times covered Obama's eventual reversal back in 2009 I said this:

Somewhat more substantively, this [from the Times] is a laugher:

While Mr. Obama has said he is “open to the possibility” that his views on same-sex marriage are misguided, he has offered no signal that he intends to change his position.

He is "open to the possibility" that when the poll numbers in support of gay marriage improve he will abandon his current position of political convenience in favor of a new position of political convenience.  Call it "fierce" advocacy!  

Oh, that is so unfair, and what am I saying - Obama will admit that his thinking has evolved and he will be hailed for his open-mindedness and personal growth.

Maybe Hitch will have time for a new book - No One Left To Pander To.  Watching Obama pretend to be something other than an utterly predictable lib is getting embarrassing for everyone.

Comments

[Army of Davids]

The president is incompetent.

Some of us have known it for a while. The media is finally starting to figure it out.

But then we were never starstruck in love with his beautiful smile.

[Jack is Back!]

OT: Mak,ala,aka JOMO Tribal Members.

I have made a movie that pretty much encapsulates what is going to happen if we screw up and don't do what we have been talking about. A lot of prominent members of the tribe are mentioned (bribery to get you to watch). LUN

[Army of Davids]

Angle InTrades at 69% right now. Harry....the election "is lost".

[Beat the drums.]

'Mean Squaws', hah.
==========

[Army of Davids]

Beware the political ghosts of Smoot and Hawley.

When goods do not cross borders, soldiers will.
Frederic Bastiat

[Porchlight]

That’s probably the best you’ll do out of me today.

But down the road, we'll talk.

They don't even try to hide the expedience factor anymore.

[Mark Folkestad]

Nice to know Porch didn't go out and get hammered and thrown in the drunk tank after the Giants beat the Rangers last night. We need her in here sober. I turned my attention away from the game when the Rangers were leading by two, and when I got back to it, OUCH!

Ear Leader is really a weasel. This shouldn't be an issue. Marriage is to benefit society and individuals by the stable raising of children. And please don't come to me with glowing stories about gay couples raising kids. The one case I know about was a spectacular failure. In any event, I appreciate heart-felt beliefs and intelligent discourse on the issue, not bending in the wind as each new poll is released.

[Robert Bell]

I think you have a typo in the author's name on the link to Americablog:

"Posted by Joe Sudbay"

Well said:

Following The Arc From "Yes We Can" To "You Sit Thinking, 'You Know, Maybe. I Don't Know.' "

[Kevin B]

How's dear Andy taking this? Has he flounced... Sorry, sorry. Has he minced.. Oops. Try again. Has he boldly strode away from his position, (bent over at the waist), on the greatness of Obama? Is he foaming at the mouth with rage? Has he attacked all Obama's other political stances that dear Andy previously wholeheartedly supported?

Why am I asking you to do something I wouldn't touch with a bargepole, (i.e. look at dear Andy's site)? Why am I writing this whole ridiculous comment in a questionable way?

Where will it all end? What's it all about? Alfie?

[Janet the tea-vangelist!]

JiB! That is so clever! Thank you.
SlurpEEEEs! Hahahaha

[Porchlight]

Nice to know Porch didn't go out and get hammered and thrown in the drunk tank after the Giants beat the Rangers last night.

Heh, not even close - not last night anyway. I was exactly like you - I had a Halloween function to attend so last I checked, Rangers were up 2. I came home to an 11-4 Giants lead. Bummer.

[Extraneus]

Good one, JiB!

[Mark Folkestad]

JiB, thanks. I enjoyed that, especially the zing aimed at Androol.

Porch, just so the Rangers don't fold in the manner of our beloved Twins!

[Porchlight]

That was awesome JiB! I love all the JOM shoutouts. And troll shoutouts too. ;)

I need to watch again later with a stronger connection, it slowed down in spots.

[Porchlight]

Mark, as you know, no team can fold like a Minnesota team. That alone should help the Rangers...

[Mark Folkestad]

I'd appreciate a heads-up from our Texans about the origins of leftists in their state outside of the Peoples' Republic of Austin. I've got a friend in Alaska who comes from Lubbock, has been screwed over royally by fellow leftists, and still rants against Republicans, except for the late Ted Stevens and Frank's precious daughter Lisa. She's posting dual comments on Facebook cheering on the Rangers and the Princess. My vote won't go to waste here in Minnesota, but I wish that my move hadn't been delayed and that I could have given my vote to Miller. Phooey.

[Captain Hate]

Laura Ingraham is hammering Bammers for his appearance on Jon Stewart's show as being yet another step down on diminishing the office. Based on the clips she's played she's probably being too kind because it sounds like a complete embarrassment to Rupert Pupkin.

[Mark Folkestad]

Porch, I love the way the Vikings lost on Sunday night. The NFL veep called our coach to tell him the Viking touchdown should not have been taken away, and that a Packer TD would have been reversed had he challenged it. And now we hear that the coach was fined thirty-four grand for derogatory comments about the refs. DUH!

[bgates]

The one case I know about was a spectacular failure.

That settles it, then.

[Ranger]

Well, if he is chasing the http://www.gallup.com/poll/144053/2010-Electorate-Looking-Republican-Past.aspx>polls, Obama will be a Republican by 2012.

Most interesting to me, besides the 55/40 split in likely voters towards the Rs is the change in political outlook between 2006 and today. A 6% gain for the conservative viewpoint in just 4 years. By 2012 conservatives will be over 50% at this rate.

[Ranger]

Mark, as you know, no team can fold like a Minnesota team. That alone should help the Rangers...

Posted by: Porchlight | October 28, 2010 at 09:25 AM

Have you ever watched the Cubs in post season play? Actually, have you ever watched the Cubs after the 1st of August?

[centralcal]

Cool, JiB! Slurpeeeeees, androooool. lol.

Ace has a link to this really pretty graphic.

[Jack is Back!]

Thanks all.

I learned a lot about how to write the script. You have to be real careful because the recognition software they use is "literal". That is why a lot of the speech came out clipped or stuttered. Will be making another one prior to election day.

By the way, according to the Daily Telegraph, Karl Rove has fired the first salvo accross the bow of the USS Mama Grizzly.

Speaking of Alaska, I read where the Alaska Supreme Court has overturned a lower court decision and will allow lists of write in candidates to be handed out at precint polling stations. I am sure this will result in daddy finding his way back to McSorley's Ale House and drowning his woes:)

[Mark Folkestad]

bgates, yeah, I know that it is dangerous to rely on slim anecdotal evidence, but it happens to be my experience. The youth in question has become a major predator in NYC, and he supposedly had all the advantages, with TWO loving fathers and lots of money and good schooling. I've heard other disaster stories, but this is one that I can verify.

[BR]

Oh Jack, that was hilarious! More, more! Would you do one on the first appearance of JOMOs from St. Jane's Island Nation at the UN? Hee, the UN will have to hire a JOMO language translator.

[Ranger]

And back on topic... Obama will never voice support for gay marrage as long as he has to run for a nation wide office. The African American community is one of the (if not the) most homophobic communities in the US. Obama needs the Black Churches to turn out the vote in 2012, so his views on this issue will not completely evolve until after that date. He will keep talking about how they are evolving to keep the money flowing from the gay pride ATM into the Dem party coffers though.

[PaulL]

DAVID PLOUFFE, Obama 2008 campaign manager: "While they don't rival 2008, they certainly don't suggest that Republicans are on the precipice of some big electoral wave."

Now we know who taught Ibama to misuse the word precipice.

[Ranger]

Speaking of Alaska, I read where the Alaska Supreme Court has overturned a lower court decision and will allow lists of write in candidates to be handed out at precint polling stations.

Funny how the rules designed to protect incumbant members of the ruling class suddenly get thrown out when an incumbant member of the ruling class has to run as a write in.

[Jim Ryan]

Mark, it sounds like the predator was deprived of one or both of his biological parents. That can screw a person up.

[Mark Folkestad]

Ranger, I've talked with Cubs fans before, but I try not to spend time with severely depressed people.

My cousin and her husband bought a couple of dozen tickets to a Reds game for attendees at her son's high school graduation. Not being much of a sports fan, she specified when she bought the tickets that she wanted them on the north side of the stadium. Her rationale, which she did not share with the ticket seller, was that the north side would be the shady side, so that all of her family and friends could better survive what was forecast to be a brutally hot day. She hadn't a clue that it works the opposite for a stadium, and that the sunniest spot is in the middle of the north side. We were on the upper deck. One survival tactic we used was to wrap napkins around our bare arms and necks. Norwegians don't tan too well, but we burn very well. We looked like a bunch of boiled lobsters when it was all over.

[BR]

Ha ha, precipice. Yeah, waves come from deep water and break on shallows. They're thinking Niagara Falls, meanwhile it's a tsunami.

[Mark Folkestad]

Ranger, good point about Ear Leader waiting to reverse because of the attitudes of the Black Churches

Jim, the kid who turned out bad was a foster kid they adopted. He seemed like a terrific kid when he came into their care. But whenever it was time for the two fathers to jet off somewhere for a few weeks or months, the kid was left to fend for himself. So the kid had a double-dose of abandonment issues. If you can't care for a kid, don't take one on. The "parents" saw it as making a social statement, not about loving a child.

[Captain Hate]

By the way, according to the Daily Telegraph, Karl Rove has fired the first salvo accross the bow of the USS Mama Grizzly.

Rove is my enemy. Compassionate conservatism screwed up the country and paved the way to 2008. He's still butt hurt from the spanking that Delaware gave him and Mike Castle. He's stuck in his mindset and, from his comments in the Telegraph, is incapable of learning anything.

[Jane (sit on the couch or save your country)]

HI guys! I'm making my comeback. That was hysterical JIB - people here are so talented.

So, did I miss anything?

[bunkerbuster]

I despise Obama's "flexibility" on gay civil rights, but then again, I don't recall any president in my lifetime playing it straight on the issue. Clinton promised equal rights for gays, then signed don't ask don't tell -- true, he was "compelled" more strongly than Obama, but, still, he ultimately caved to homophobia out of political concerns, just like Obama.
Bush II tried to have it both ways as well: claiming to be for equal rights for gays, but opposing any an all efforts to guarantee them.
Fortunately, the conservatives utter defeat in the "culture war" over this issue is making presidential politics about it somewhat less relevant...

[centralcal]

Did you miss anything? I can't remember, but we really missed YOU!

Glad you're feeling better and hopefully will be full strength for election night.

[Jerry Randell]

NRO:
"Miller Falls to Last in New Poll
October 28, 2010 9:25 A.M.
By Katrina Trinko

A new poll shows Republican senate candidate Joe Miller rapidly losing support from Alaskan voters. The Hays Research poll has “write-in candidate” (Sen. [Milly Gertowitz] was not directly named) backed by 34 percent, Democrat Scott McAdams by 29 percent, and Miller by 23 percent."

note: Milly G my edit.

[Jim Ryan]

Jane, this Bielat internal poll was leaked yesterday showing Bielat has a chance - you see that?

[boris]

"a foster kid they adopted"

That a kid would be better off growing up in foster care rather than same sex parents is a very difficult point to make.

The opposite point ... nothing special about kids raised by both biological parents ... should be easy to debunk. Since that is not apparently the case it tells me the issue is not resolvable using "reasonable" arguments.

[Jack is Back!]

Jane, what is the St. Jane's Island Nation at the UN that BR speaks of (scroll up)? Give me some idea of your post and I will incorporate into the next movie:)

[Jim Ryan]

AIDE: I'm not sure why the president won't return your calls, Mr.... Rover, was it?

ROVE: Rove. But, I...she....

AIDE: Sir, is there anything else I can help you with?

ROVE: Is Vice President Bolton available?

AIDE: You know, I've put that message through a few times, too.

ROVE: But, I...he....

[Jane (sit on the couch or save your country)]

I did see that Jim, he's gonna pull it out I think.

CC - I don't think I've ever been sicker and I'm not done yet, but I've been out of bed for 2 hours now so I consider that a victory.

JIB - the island goes back a long way - I'm not even quite sure how it all got started - someone else may remember. We decided that we had to leave the country and start our own country and we needed an island and for some reason I never understood, someone named it after me. I still have no idea if it was a result of mocking or flattering.

We found one on our last post election cruise, and Caro took pictures. I'm not sure of the current status.

[Captain Hate]

Sorry you've been sick, Jane; I assumed you were off doing Tea Party bidness. Welcome back.

[Clarice]

Very funny, JIB. I'll send it to Soylent.

[Clarice]

Jane. I'm sorry you've been so ill but am happy you are mending.

[Ignatz Ratzkywatzky]

--The African American community is one of the (if not the) most homophobic communities in the US.--

I really detest that term.
Technically it implies an irrational fear but is really a codeword for an irrational hatred of homosexuals, and I kind of doubt Ranger meant it that way.
However it's not only quite possible but quite common to have a perfectly rational concern that open acceptance of homosexuality is a sign of moral decay and that homosexual marriage will be corrosive to our society, without either fearing or hating homosexuals.

[Clarice]

Ras
Daily Presidential Tracking Poll--Thursday, October 28, 2010 (Down to -20)

[Danube of Thought]

'Mornin' everybody. Clarice beat me to it by one minute.

[Porchlight]

Hi Jane! I'm so glad you're feeling better. Thank you for the beautiful STP shirt and button! I mentioned it on the other thread, but my younger daughter grabbed the shirt immediately and put it on. I took some photos, I'll send you one.

and the check is in the mail as they say ;)

[Porchlight]

Wasn't it -15 just yesterday? Or am I a couple of days off?

The Jon Stewart appearance sounded like a disaster.

[Threadkiller]

Gay marriage, once Obama tries it I am sure he will be for it.

JiB, good stuff!

[Ranger]

Ignatz,

I don't know why you destst the term if it is used properly. The problem, of course, is that the term has become a way to demonize anyone who opposes any part of the radical "gay rights" agenda. In the case of the African American community though, it is "an irrational hatred of homosexuals."

On the other hand, I would fall into the camp "that homosexual marriage will be corrosive to our society, without either fearing or hating homosexuals." I have several gay friends, and none of them would describe me as a "homophobe", but they also know that I oppose gay marrage.

[peter]

Any day the Ras is negative 20 or lower is a good day here at JOM.

[Porchlight]

peter,

Trolls come out on days like this as well. I predict cleo sightings over the weekend after some substances are ingested. Maybe as early as tonight.

bunkerbuster left a troll dropping earlier this morning on the Al Franken thread, too, I noticed.

[Jane (sit on the couch or save your country)]

Great Porch - Janet, Amy sent yours out yesterday or the day before because I was incapable.

[rse]

LUN is a link to an interview with Stanley Kurtz about his new book "Radical-in-Chief".

Understanding just how much has been misrepresented makes it even harder to listen to.

Also do not miss Shelby Steele's editorial today in the WSJ of how BO and MO see themselves as redeemers from a bad America and Tuesday is about a mass rejection of the idea that the US is not a special place.

[Jane (sit on the couch or save your country)]

Ranger,

One of the most interesting conversations I had with the resident lesbian is where she said: "If I get to be for gay marriage, then people can be against gay marriage.

Seems to me that is the precise point of equality.

[Janet the tea-vangelist!]

Welcome back Jane...we missed ya! Like Captain Hate, I assumed you were off doing Tea Party stuff.

[rse]

LUN is the Shelby Steele editorial "A referendum on the Redeemer".

JIB-that was so good. I had never seen that software until recently when I watched the film "so you want to go to law school".

[Janet the tea-vangelist!]

Amy sent yours out yesterday

That's fine. I sent you a FB message about one of my daughter's friends wanting one. He reads the postings on my FB page & told Naomi he wanted one. I get a kick outta that...there's always hope!

[caro]

Here is the St.Jane's slideshow.

[Jane (sit on the couch or save your country)]

How fun that was to watch again Caro.

[Pofarmer]

Later, Obama seemed to suggest that legalization of gay marriage is inevitable. "The one thing I will say today is I think it’s pretty clear where the trendlines are going," he added.

Everywhere it's voted on it's voted down.

[peter]

"...after some substances are ingested..."

LOL! Bring em' on.

[caro]

Hugh Hewitt did a great one-hour interview with Stanley Kurtz yesterday. I really hope it goes up somewhere for a link. Kurtz has done amazing scholarly research for the book that will be out there for the reelection campaign should there be one.

Along with that interview last night I was reading this letter on Hillbuzz. Somehow these two diverse pieces clicked together to show a picture of a man that should not have become our president.

[jimmyk]

That settles it, then.

Who should have the burden of proof here? For better or worse we have thousands of years of experience with children being reared by biological parents, by adoptive heterosexual parents, by relatives who step in when parents are unable to do it, etc. We have precious little evidence one way or the other regarding childrearing by gay couples. So should we experiment with childrens' lives so that we can gather data to see whether it works or not? I say no.

[Jane (sit on the couch or save your country)]

That's a bad argument jimmy. There are lots of really bad heterosexual parents, and lots of really good (and bad) gay parents.

[Charlie (Colorado)]

And please don't come to me with glowing stories about gay couples raising kids. The one case I know about was a spectacular failure.

And please don't mention that one counter-example is not an argument.

[sbw]

JIB, my glasses are dirty, but I thought that was a pretty good representation of Clarice.

--

St. Janes... Sigh. Thinking good of Bad.

[Danube of Thought]

The Shelby Steele column to which rse linked is a must-read classic. The guy has remarkable insight.

[Homosexuality is exuberant and luxurious.]

Reproduction is a mechanism to preserve the human race. Marriage is a mechanism to improve the first mechanism. Homosexuality has no need for either mechanism, hence the effort is unnecessary and futile.
====================

[Charlie (Colorado)]

Rove is my enemy.

A distinction as exclusive as a thunderstorm.

[Charlie (Colorado)]

Who should have the burden of proof here?

Someone who has better evidence than one, clearly bad, family situation. A het couple who adopt a foster kid, then jet off for weeks or months leaving said kid on his own would have been trouble too.

[Captain Hate]

A distinction as exclusive as a thunderstorm.

ZING

[Ranger]

Seems to me that is the precise point of equality.

Posted by: Jane (sit on the couch or save your country) | October 28, 2010 at 10:44 AM

Jane,

Sorry to hear you were down with a bug. Glad you're feeling better.

As to the issue, I guess I have that old mid-western attitude that there are certain things you just don't talk about. This is a key to maintaining social harmony by tolerating things you don't accept, but that harm no one else. But the modern left has even made toleration into a negative. We are told as a society that we must accept and even celabrate any behavior, regardless of the consequences, or we are some sort of bigot.

[Jane (sit on the couch or save your country)]

Ranger,

I don't know how old you are but that may be a function of age. As I understand it, at this point there are so many iterations of families out there, given divorce and serial marriages and gay marriages and all that, that to the kids growing up it is just no big deal. If Megan has two mommies, so does Susy - Susy just happens to also have 2 daddies.

That is also what seems to be bringing about the change in DADT. Straight kids these days are friends with gay kids, and no one thinks all that much about it. At least that is what I hear.

The legislature - where I truly believe these things should be decided, is always light years behind. I figure there is a reason for that, altho I'm not sure I know what it is.

[Our view of Obama is become consensus.]

Yes, a fine column from Steele, but his remarkable insights were mostly all discussed here two years ago.
=====================

[sbw]

Beginning with the latest Teaching Company course on economics, and projecting my own thoughts ahead:

Commercial markets allowed voluntary cooperation among ever-larger groups, creating liberty for individuals to set their own goals and work to achieve them, but the larger societies that are allowed limit the moral claims of any one group over others.

We have yet to resolve how best to deal with the edge where any two cultures meet. Neither retreat to yesterday nor anarchy is acceptable.

The progressive fallacy is that social justice is the responsibility of government to legislate. But what is it? What is the common good? How do you know? What makes you so sure? And isn’t that also the fallacy of the other side?

[NK]

Porch-- 'bout those Ras BHO numbers. Ras claims his numbers are the most useful because he has the best database of "likely voters" and his three day running sample is the best method to reach them. Thus he claims his numbers bounce around less than the Gallup registered voter polls. And yes his daily poll varies only a couple of points day to day. BUT one clear trend that Ras acknowledges is the affect of weekends. His weekend samples (and all other pollsters) overstates the older and poorer and undercuts mid/high income and parents with children at home groups. To date, older and poorer are better groups for BHO and the higher income and families w/children have been bad groups for BHO. Hence mon/tues tend to be BHO's best Ras days, thurs/friday his worst. Not huge spreads, but a repeated trend.

[Captain Hate]

That is also what seems to be bringing about the change in DADT. Straight kids these days are friends with gay kids, and no one thinks all that much about it. At least that is what I hear.

That's not the issue with ending DADT. At all.

[Porchlight]

Hence mon/tues tend to be BHO's best Ras days, thurs/friday his worst. Not huge spreads, but a repeated trend.

Thanks, NK. That is very helpful.

[Jane (sit on the couch or save your country)]

I think it is the propellant CH.

[The times they are a hoppin'.]

That's a very interesting note from Kevin, Caro, and possibly an important one. I'm intrigued that his anger against Obama is sourced by the dirtiness of the work against Hillary, and yet now, because of his conservatism, he would support Sarah over Hillary. A further point: this is from a gay man who may well end up worse off if the culture war we're facing gets nasty and destructive.
===========

[Ignatz Ratzkywatzky]

--In the case of the African American community though, it is "an irrational hatred of homosexuals."--

Says who?
Plenty of blacks are still motivated by tried and true social traditions and conservatism which is hardly the same as irrational anything.

[Porchlight]

There are lots of really bad heterosexual parents, and lots of really good (and bad) gay parents.

I think jimmy's point is that the sample size in the former is nearly the whole of human history, and in the latter a very small number of children. So we just don't really know yet what the long term effects are.

What do gay parents tell their kids regarding their bio parents? Because clearly, at least one bio parent is not represented in the parental couple. I know how it tends to work with hetero adoption, widows and widowers, etc. I'm genuinely curious.

I have an acquaintance who is raising her twins (conceived during a one-night stand) with her gay then-roommate, now-husband. (Incidentally, he was illegally added to their birth certificates as their bio father.) The couple obviously has no romantic relationship whatsoever, and the husband dates men. I'm glad that the girls have a live-in, real loving dad, but someday they are going to have some questions.

[Captain Hate]

I think it is the propellant CH.

To whom? To the military it's about performance under fire being compromised by emotional issues.

[sbw]

Perhaps someone can explain to me why the position of the military should be any different from that in the workplace -- assuming, though, that a military work day on assignment is 24 hours long, seven days a week.

Inappropriate conversation or activity is grounds for dismissal.

And that forbids sexting to employees during or after work hours.

[Jane (sit on the couch or save your country)]

What do gay parents tell their kids regarding their bio parents? Because clearly, at least one bio parent is not represented in the parental couple.

Amy told her oldest the truth when she asked. She brought out a pix and showed her. Her oldest is 8. They want simple answers.

[Captain Hate]

Perhaps someone can explain to me why the position of the military should be any different from that in the workplace

Because it's different in nature from commercial activities and always has been going back to Greece BC. The military can discriminate by age and disabilities, for just two examples that come to mind.

[boris]

"Perhaps someone can explain ..."

There may not be a convincing rational explanation for a product of natural selection.

"Inappropriate conversation or activity is grounds for dismissal."

Rules may be rules but the military is less interested in enforcing rules than avoiding the need to. One might be able to come up with a set of rules to allow females to serve on subs but the general expectation is they would prove inadequate to avoid issues that do not arise with all male non gay crews.

[sbw]

I don't have a problem with the Dutch allowing gays in their military. I have a problem with their military not being any good.

Whatever rules we have, like our marine reputation, I want others to recognize no better friend and no worse enemy.

[bgates]

So should we experiment with childrens' lives so that we can gather data to see whether it works or not?

That would have made a compelling argument against mixed race marriages 50 or 100 years ago.

[boris]

Race card? Seriously?

Turns out "modern" humans were interbreeding with Neanderthalls in east asia 100,000 years ago. That ship has sailed.

[Captain Hate]

I'm more agnostic on gay adoption/parenting than DADT just because there are so many variables involved in parenting that, as with anything in oxymoronic social science, there are few absolutes. Plus there are plenty of children that need a stable setting to grow up in.

[boris]

"so many variables involved in parenting ..."

Based on literature and pop culture people believe children want to be raised by their biological parents and that's what's best for them. Studies do affirm that belief.

It's one thing to say "both biological parents may be best but gay parents are good enough". Not seeing that though, instead it is deny and disparage.

[Porchlight]

Thanks Jane for the info. That sounds like the right thing to do.

[bandit]

He's going to wear the ugly dresses from now on

[hit and run]

NK:
Hence mon/tues tend to be BHO's best Ras days, thurs/friday his worst. Not huge spreads, but a repeated trend.

Well.

Here's http://justoneminute.typepad.com/main/2010/06/dont-worry-says-the-white-house-the-taliban-is-far-from-beaten.html?cid=6a00d83451b2aa69e20134850d9cdb970c#comment-6a00d83451b2aa69e20134850d9cdb970c>my analysis of Ras polling by day of the week from back in June.

Wednesday (polls from Sun/Mon/Tue) and Thursday (polls from Mon/Tue/Wed) are his best days,and Saturday (Wed/Thu/Fri) and Sunday (Thu/Fri/Sat) his worst.

[jimmyk]

Jane:
That's a bad argument jimmy. There are lots of really bad heterosexual parents, and lots of really good (and bad) gay parents.

Then you misunderstand my argument. I never claimed otherwise. As Porch explained, we've got a large sample on side, very little on the other. So sure, let's roll the dice, right?

Chaco:
Someone who has better evidence than one, clearly bad, family situation.

When I said "who has the burden of proof" I was clearly not talking about "which JOM poster," but "proponents for which side of the argument." Though I suspect you knew that.

If a child is put up for adoption, say, and a happy and stable heterosexual married couple want to adopt, and a happy and stable homosexual couple want to adopt, to whom should the baby go? We've got a lot of data on the odds of success for the former, very little on the latter.

It's true that a generation ago one could have substituted "interracial" for "homosexual." If you view that as a hands down argument for rolling the dice on the gay couple, more power to you. I don't see the situations as precisely analogous.

[Ranger]

Says who?
Plenty of blacks are still motivated by tried and true social traditions and conservatism which is hardly the same as irrational anything.

Posted by: Ignatz Ratzkywatzky | October 28, 2010 at 11:53 AM

True, but there are also a large number of people in the African American community that hold the views of people such as the Black Pathers, and they were intensely homophobic. A large number of African Americans hold the view that homosexuality is a "white" thing. A big part of the reason that the AIDS epidemic was so much worse over time in the African American community was the belief within the community that since AIDS was a "gay" problem, there was no need to address it.