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October 06, 2010

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MarkO

Obama's just not that smart.

Pagar

IMO, very low on the list of things libs want is to enhance America's stature in the world.

Neo
In documents released Wednesday, the national oil spill commission reveals that in late April or early May the White House budget office denied a request from the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration to make public the worst-case discharge from the blown-out well.

BP estimated the worse scenario to be a leak of 2.5 million gallons per day. The government, meanwhile, was telling the public the well was releasing 210,000 gallons per day - a figure that later grew closer to BP's figure.

Funny, I kept hearing that BP was lying, that it was close to 2.2 million gallons per day.

Now we find out who was to blame .. The White House.
But hey, they are professional liars.

lyle

"I want to hear President Obama explain his decision and the judge's decision to the American people. He must be capable of doing that."

Dear Ann: He's not.

Extraneus

Apparently they're not playing chess.


Jamal the Twister

MarkO

That's right. He is a liar.

Ranger

Obama lied, the Coast died!

Clarice

Well, I certainly think the result was utterly predictable, but then I'm just not as smart as Holder and Obama apparently [think they] are.

NK

This is very interesting. judge Kaplan is a liberal, but not a fool, nor is he a bleeding heart terrorist lover. So why did he "side with the defense"?. Kaplan's dicta about Ghailani not going anywhere as an enemy combatant, may be instructive. Perhaps kaplan is telling the barry o/Holder morons that the judiciary does not like being part of a rigged trial, where no matter the outcome, the defendant stays in custody. Conservatives and thoughtful liberals agree-- try AQ before military tribunals.

Neo

Judge Kaplan added that Mr. Ghailani’s status as an “ ‘enemy combatant’ probably would permit his detention as something akin to a prisoner of war until hostilities between the United States and Al Qaeda and the Taliban end, even if he were found not guilty.”

So this proves one of two possible things:
1) trying an ‘enemy combatant’ in civil court is an incredibly stupid idea and should be abandoned immediately and forever
2) I forgot what #2 was, but it doesn't matter.

Neo

Unless they intend to publicly execute any of these ‘enemy combatants’, exactly what is the point of the trial .. exactly what is the difference in the outcome if they are found 'guilty' or 'not guilty'

maryrose

Utter incompetence shown once again by Obama and Holder. I wonder how the left will like this damned if you do damned if you don't endgame verdict.It sounds like Kaplan knows this decision is going to be like s--- hitting the fan so his subsequent comments come in the form of CYA mode.

rse

This is certainly a good night to hear Andy McCarthy speak.

Thomas Collins

Sweet irony. The Obama Presidency and the Holder Justice Department will leave as one of its legacies strong support for the proposition that defending America against jihadism is best viewed under the framework of the laws of armed conflict, not under the framework of criminal procedure. Way to go, Barry and Eric! You're demonstrating what we wingnut homophobic neocon teabaggers have been asserting all along!

Danube of Thought

I can't go so far as to say I knew this would happen, but I and countless others certainly knew--and said--that it was more likely to happen in a district court trial because the restrictions on evidence are tighter than those in a military tribunal. This is an unforced error and it is plain dumb. Dumb, dumb, dumb.

(Suppose Judge Kaplan were to preside in the case against Khalid Sheikh Mohammed?)

NK

Danube --

To any real American a District Court trial is OF COURSE "dumb, dumb, dumb". Barry O/Holder's reaction? I'm sure they don't care; as ideologues they'll celebrate the independence of the judisciary or some such nonsense. Someday when the spotlight is off, they'll release Ghailani to yemen or wherever he came from. Yes, that means Barry O (POTUS) and Holder (AG) are not real Americans.

MayBee

Judge Kaplan added that Mr. Ghailani’s status as an “ ‘enemy combatant’ probably would permit his detention as something akin to a prisoner of war until hostilities between the United States and Al Qaeda and the Taliban end, even if he were found not guilty.”

Legally, how will this be determined? We've already declared the end of combat operations in Iraq. And we've announced the beginning of a draw down in Afghanistan in July 2011. It seems possible a smart lawyer could use that date, doesn't it?

phillyjim

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't designating him as an enemy combatant make it illegal under the Geneva Convention to try him in a civilian court as an ordinary criminal? You know, unless he escapes and commits a crime while he's on the lam. He's either a POW or a criminal, he can't be both, right? If it were possible than any country could try, and if they so desired, execute POWs for any number of crimes - civilian casualties, destructiion of government property, incitement of a riot, etc. - they could just invent charges and that's that.

Thomas Collins

MayBee, I believe the enemy combatant framework can be applied to members of terrorist organizations, but I'll defer to the laws of war experts here.

Clarice

Hostilities with AQ, MayBee..Just bring in a Bin Ladin tape every couple of years.

Rob Crawford

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't designating him as an enemy combatant make it illegal under the Geneva Convention to try him in a civilian court as an ordinary criminal?

Yes.

He's either a POW or a criminal, he can't be both, right?

No. Well...

He's not a POW. POW status is dependent on being a lawful combatant. No one associated with al'Qaeda can qualify as a lawful combatant, and as the Taliban sheltered al'Qaeda after 9/11, no one associated with them can, either.

Their trials should have been: "captured under arms in civilian clothing; hanging at dawn".

Rob Crawford

If it were possible than any country could try, and if they so desired, execute POWs for any number of crimes - civilian casualties, destructiion of government property, incitement of a riot, etc. - they could just invent charges and that's that.

Yep -- that's why the Geneva Conventions forbid charging lawful combatants with a crime related to their actions while in combat. There are some allowances for things they do while POWs, but I can't remember the particulars.

phillyjim

He's not a POW. POW status is dependent on being a lawful combatant. No one associated with al'Qaeda can qualify as a lawful combatant, and as the Taliban sheltered al'Qaeda after 9/11, no one associated with them can, either.

Their trials should have been: "captured under arms in civilian clothing; hanging at dawn".

Yes, I agree. He'd fall under the category of "spies and saboteurs," and they basically have no rights under international law. However, since the administration apparently asked the judge to designate him an enemy combatant as a fallback position they've kind of hemmed themselves in.

Pagar

"exactly what is the point of the trial .. exactly what is the difference in the outcome if they are found 'guilty' or 'not guilty'"

His ice cream ration will be reduced if he is found "guilty". Wait, sorry about that, I just checked the rules and reducing his ice cream ration may be cruel and unusual punishment. Therefore, I am forced to admit I have no idea what the difference is if he is found guilty or not guilty.

bunkerbuster

``But the Constitution is the rock upon which our nation rests. We must follow it not only when it is convenient, but when fear and danger beckon in a different direction. To do less would diminish us and undermine the foundation upon which we stand.”

nicely puts paid to the faux-constitutionalism of wingnuts...

Linked NYT story says he could be held post-acquittal as something like a POW. That's quite different from the "we get it to have it both ways because we have the guns'' argument the Bush administration made about holding suspects indefinitely, without trial in a kind of totalitarian limbo as neither POWs, nor criminals.

phillyjim

That's quite different from the "we get it to have it both ways because we have the guns'' argument the Bush administration made about holding suspects indefinitely, without trial in a kind of totalitarian limbo as neither POWs, nor criminals.

Yes but my point is you can't try POWs for civilian crimes, and you can't hold civilians that have been found not guilty. Since they've already said he's an enemy combatant they can't call him an illegal combatant. I guess you could designate him as a war criminal, but then you'd have to try him by military tribunal. I don't think there's anything precluding using civilian judges to preside over military tribunals, but the trial would have to be conducted under military law.

NK

BuBu--

I feel for you man.... I really do. You know that this plays out with Barry O dismissing the District Court indictment, Holder resigning, and military tribunals trying Ghailani , and Khalid Sheik Mohamed et al. Barry O will dress it up with well we 've reformed the tribunals so they are really fair as opposed to Booosh. Window dressing. Barry O will wind up doing -- much as he hates to- exactly what Bush/Cheney did. I love it.

narciso

If it was good enough for Major Andre, it's good enough for Ahmed Ghailani (military commission I mean) Geez, Otto, "Aristotle was not Belgian, and the London Underground was not a political movement"

Clarice

Bubu, Maybe we could try him in small claims court..If we can persuade Sylvia to represent him.

jimmyk

"But the Constitution is the rock upon which our nation rests. We must follow it not only when it is convenient, but when fear and danger beckon in a different direction."

What about when it conflicts with one's leftist agenda, like mandatory health insurance, or abusing eminent domain, or reading whatever the hell one wants to read into the commerce clause. Is it still a "rock" then?

Rob Crawford

phillyjim -- Don't bother; bubu's more on their side than ours, and would prefer to see Bush in court than Khalid Sheikh Mohammed.

Rob Crawford

jimmyk -- You know the answer to that.

You also know the answer to "what about the Geneva Conventions"?

(The left abandoned them when the text didn't say what they wanted.)

MayBee

That's quite different from the "we get it to have it both ways because we have the guns'' argument the Bush administration made about holding suspects indefinitely, without trial in a kind of totalitarian limbo as neither POWs, nor criminals.

Tell that to the guys cooling their heels at Baghram.

Thomas Collins

Bunkerbuster, are you claiming to be familiar with the rules regarding enemy combatant status? If so, are you asserting that Judge Kaplan's statement suggests a status different from the status under which Ghalani would be held post trial under the GWB Administration's framework? If so, you haven't indicated what the distinction is. If your claim is GWB's framework could result in "totalitarian limbo" status, you have not indicated how such status would be different for Ghalani were he to be acquitted and then held as an enemy combatant as suggested by Judge Kaplan.

NK

BTW BuBu-- the fact that Barry O will use Tribunals for political expedency, despite his ideological opposition, makes me detest him more. Bush/Cheney really belived that tribunals were the constitutional and moral way to try AQ. AQ is not a party to the Geneva Conventions, they are, as far as the Conventions are concerned, non-uniformed unlawful combatants, so treating them as POWs was contrary to the principles of the Conventions and an insult to our own lawful armed forces. They obviously weren't criminals as contemplated by the USC. Hence the constitutionally recognized tribunals were convened. I agreed with them then and now. Barry O will come around to Tribunals only because District Court trials are now inconvenient and to save his political skin; he is Pontius Pilate. bastard.

Captain Hate

Can a military tribunal preside over a gay marriage?

Jay

says he could be held post-acquittal as something like a POW.

Actually, it says no such thing.
But you're ignorant and easily misled so nobody is surprised by this assertion.

That's quite different from the "we get it to have it both ways because we have the guns'' argument the Bush administration made about holding suspects indefinitely,

Actually, the Bush Administration said no such thing.

But you're ignorant and easily misled so nobody is surprised by this assertion.

Jay

something like a POW

By the way, I like how you leftists rationalize the indefensible.

There is nothing under law that is "like a POW" (purposely) and since you can't dare to criticize your "sort of a God" President, you've made up this BS in your mind to justify his actions.

You are a liar, and a terribly poor one at that.

Danube of Thought

"He's either a POW or a criminal, he can't be both, right?"

He's not a POW, and he can be both a criminal and an unlawful combatant. A trial in either a US court or a military tribunal is fully consistent with international and US law, including the constitution. The decision to try him in court was purely an elective one, and they have never claimed otherwise. And the courts and the Obama administration have said that unlawful combatants can be held--and indeed held with trial--until the cessation of hostilities. To say otherwise would be to grant them rights greater than those ofnPOW's, which would stand the Geneva Convention on its head.

Danube of Thought

In case it isn't crystal clear, this man had no rights under the federal rules of evidence or the constitution until Holder voluntarily placed him in the federal court system. Had he been before a military tribunal, the "fruit of the poisonous tree" doctrine would not have applied. I don't think judge Kaplan had much choice in making his ruling, as a lot of people predicted long ago.

PDinDetroit

I can solve the problem of this terrorist - It is hunting season in the MI Northwoods and I have a Terrorist Hunting Permit with no bag limit. Problem Solved.

BTW - 10/1 was Opening Day for Deer Archery Season. My nephew just moved to MI, I took him hunting for the first time, and he took a Spike Horn Buck opening morning. It is like he has been hunting all his life - a natural.

Ignatz

I'd like to give bubu a swirly.
Would that count as torture and would it be covered by the Geneva conventions?

Danube of Thought

Holder on indefinite detention in April of this year:

After confirming that the administration has determined 48 detainees at Guantanamo who are “not feasible to transfer [and] too dangerous to prosecute,” Attorney General Eric Holder conceded that the administration still doesn’t have a structure in place for handling their indefinite detention without trial. Holder told Sen. Ben Cardin (D-Md.) that the administration would not object to those detainees challenging their detention in habeas corpus proceedings before a federal judge, and for those who lose their habeas cases and remain detained, there “has to be some kind of ongoing review mechanism put in place” for determining someone is still a threat.
phillyjim

Danube - hey fine. But I think they're setting a pretty dangerous precedent that could be used against our troops sometime in the future. You want to call them illegal combatants, then why have a trial at all? Illegal combatants have few or no rights under the Geneva Convention, why give them any? In a criminal trial they get a lawyer (on our dime), they can't be interoggated without their lawyer present, they can't incriminate themselves, the list goes on. If they're POWs, then a trial is in itself a war crime.

RichatUF

Maybee-

Good point. I wonder where all the shrieks and hysterics are from the progressives that a German national is being held without charge in Bagram and information developed during his "interrogation" is being used to grease some unfortunates in Pakistan.

Jane

Geez, the Sturbridge Tea Party is being threatened. Look what showed up in the comments on the T&G piece:

Intelligent folks don't buy it. The tea party is nothing but a front group for the Koch bros. and Rupert Murdoch's republican hate machine. You are deluded if you think the 'tea party' represents American values. You obviously live in or perceive a different America. Recent surveys reveal that some 80% of the 'tea bags' collect unemployment, social security, disability, or draw from some other entitlement program. Put your money where your mouth is hypocrites. We will meet you in Sturbridge and will fiercely oppose you. Be prepared. Most of America does not like you. You are the whiners and complainers that like to complain but don't lift a finger to help your neighbor or your country. You remind many people of the dysfunctional hate movements prior to the last civil war.

You can respond all you want. The tea bags like to posture like self styled 'patriots' but are in actuality a minority group of blow hards that are projecting their own negativity upon the government. Like a famous man sad...'Take the log out of your own eye before you try to remove the splinter in your brother's...hypocrites'. The tea bags..being maybe 5% of the population are completely unconscious that they are projecting. The unconscious projections of the tea bags allow the tea bags to demonize and throw their angry stones at the government. The part the tea bags don't get is the the 85 IQ Sarah Bin Palin, and the idiot Glen Hitler Beck are divisive toxic lunatics that most Americans rightly recognize as fruit loops. Look at the idiocy of the political choices this group has made. Christine O'Donnell in Delaware. Sharon Angle in Nevada. Rubio in Florida. The list is like a who's who of dumb and stupid in America. Do any of these candidates have even average intelligence? No they do not. The tea bags lack consciousness, intelligence, and discernment. Groups are forming to counter and oppose the tea bags, who are entirely financed with corporate republican money, courtesy of the Koch bros and Murdoch. We look forward to meeting the tea party in Sturbridge.

I guess there was more.

We made the front page of the local newspaper today so I guess more to come.

Danube of Thought

You want to call them illegal combatants, then why have a trial at all?

It's a fine distinction, but if an illegal combatant has also committed a crime (there are 48 in Gitmo who haven't), you can go beyond mere detention and put the guy in prison. It's the difference between a federal supermax and Club Gitmo.

scott

heh MayBee, Instead of yucking it up with his attorney in a NY courtroom he should be sweatin' to the oldie's in a shipping container in Baghram until this thing gets sorted out.

Dave (in MA)

Jane, I can't decide whether that's funny or sad.

I don't know if you get Michele McPhee's show out your way but a caller about a 1/2 hour ago mentioned that she has a vanity cookbook called "Fat Fingers" authored by Tierney's wife.

DrJ

Jane,

So when do you get in on the Koch and Murdoch money train?

Ignatz

Jane, could you please forward me my share of the millions the eeeevil Koch's and Murdoch have sent your way?

Thomas Collins

OT ALERT and ALERT FOR THOSE WHO ARE TIVOING THE REDS/PHILLIES GAME ONE NLCS DIVISIONAL PLAYOFF GAME


I won't say what's going on in deference to baseball traditionalists, but the Phillies are batting in the bottom of the eighth at the moment. Y'all may want to take a break from enemy combatant/federal court talk and watch the Reds bat in the top of the ninth. Enuf said.

Ignatz

Geez first clarice is walking on my lines and now DocJ.

Jane, set me up again.

Janet

Jane, For the April 15th Tea Parties there was a coordinated effort to crash them...legitimate Tea Party patriots carried signs that pointed out the crashers in case they were being photographed.

Example -

Jane

Who is Koch BTW? He owes me a check.

Yeah I think I'll ask some people to be on the lookout. It's probably Bubu or one of his pals sitting in the basement, but sheesh.

Pops

Ahh, remember the good old days when the press constantly speculated about the ginning up of terrorist attack stories just before an election.

Haven't seen any of those stories regarding the OBama adminstration and their big European attack stories.

Thomas Collins

ANOTHER OT/TIVO ALERT:


Tip of the Hat to Roy Halladay, who just no-hit the Reds.

centralcal

Jane - they are afraid of you, of us, of normal people.

centralcal

Oh, and don't forget that I am on your JOMer email list, so when that Koch/Murdock money starts rolling in, you know how to contact me!

Dave (in MA)

Jane, do you have a link to the T&G article? I signed up but the Tea Party article I managed to find has no comments. The D-bagger needs some rebuttals from JOMers.

Dave (in MA)

T.C. I turned it on just as the final pitch was being delivered.

Ignatz

Jane, the Koch brothers are Kansas energy billionaires who fund conservative and libertarian causes.
They're the left's Richard Mellon Scaife bogeyman of the present regime. Jane Mayer kicked the slander off with a little defamation in the New Yorker a few weeks ago.

Jane

Someone sent it to me Dave, But I'll look and see what I can find. It was published on Wednesday.

Cecil Turner

It's a fine distinction, but if an illegal combatant has also committed a crime (there are 48 in Gitmo who haven't), you can go beyond mere detention and put the guy in prison.

Actually, you can do that with a lawful combatant. Per Quirin, an unlawful combatant is subject to prison (or death) merely for being one:

Unlawful combatants are likewise subject to capture and detention, but in addition they are subject to trial and punishment by military tribunals for acts which render their belligerency unlawful.

Dave (in MA)
Jane - they are afraid of you, of us, of normal people.
Yes, they're afraid of Jane, afraid of us, and afraid of normal people, too.
bgates

You remind many people of the dysfunctional hate movements prior to the last civil war.

"last"?

I really don't get progs who bring up the civil war. That conflict was between the armed forces of the United States and a lot of southerners who had a martial background and knew how to shoot. A similar conflict today would see both of those groups on the same side, facing every community college English department and modern dance troupe in the country. I don't like their odds.

What is it with you identity progressives, anyway?

Thomas Collins

Glad you got to see the end, Dave(in MA). I always love watching no-hitters, even if I have no rooting interest in the teams.

centralcal

lol, Dave - in a hurry, trying to shut the office and go home. Thanks for fixing that comment!!!!

Extraneus

Who is Koch BTW?

Just heard of him (or them, I think there are "Koch Brothers") today. Apparently, Grassley heard Goolseby say something derogatory about one of the Koch brothers that could possibly only be known via his tax return, and has requested an investigation of criminal privacy invasion. Something like that, I'm not sure of the particulars, and don't have time to go searching at the moment.

Jane

Dave,

I haven't read all the comments here but I'm told the one I posted was by Vintel 7.

Rob Crawford

Y'all may want to take a break from enemy combatant/federal court talk and watch the Reds bat in the top of the ninth.

Why would I want to waste my time doing that?

Rob Crawford

I really don't get progs who bring up the civil war.

Betcha most of them think Lincoln was a Democrat.

Jane

Boy I am so tempted to post a comment over there, but I think that would not be wise.

Old Lurker

Jane, Obama singled out the Kochs in speech suggesting knowledge of their finance structure, which knowledge was expanded upon by an administration official. The company cried foul (improper use of tax return information), Senate reps (Grassley) demanded an IG investigation into illegal access, and the IG has agreed to look into it. Should be fun to watch.

 Ann

Jane:

Commentary magazine on Koch Industries:

PRESS MAN: The Paranoid Style in Liberal Politics

Jane

I think I read about that today OL.

well if nothing else there is some fodder for tomorrows show.

Pagar

Investigation to be held concerning who allegedly did what with Koch brothers financial info.

Annie Oakley

Smart lawyer husband says that all Holder and Obama want is the APPEARANCE of prosecuting these people- they just want to be able to say, "See, we tried, but the previous administration botched it with their UNCONSTITUTIONAL detentions." They just want to be off the hook and smear the Republicans.

Sue

Smart lawyer husband is right.

Sue

In all the hoopla over the no-hitter, I think everyone missed the fact that the Rangers beat the Rays. An FYI moment. Carry on. ::grin::

Clarice

Yes, Jane. Broadcast about it. Also make sure the cops know and are prepared. Someone there is who doesn't like free speech.

Extraneus

Thanks, OL. So now Koch is like Halliburton and Scaife? Cool.

I understand it's not pronounced kotsch, so they may have some difficulty talking about the new bogeymen.

Sue

And for those of you who don't have a dog in this fight, would you be so kind to think kind thoughts towards the Twins? Boo Yankees!!!!

Jane

I can't decide about the cops yet Clarice.

Rob Crawford

Jane -- make sure you have some people with video cameras. The more, the better. Best of all if they can run them through the whole thing and circulate around.

maryrose

Evidently this prying into confidential information and then publicizing it is really a blackeye for this lousy administration. It takes me back to the illegal FBI files Hillary had in thw White House that targeted certain republicans. Also obtaining Michael Steele's social security number during his run for Senate in Maryland. Ill-gotten goods, concealed divorce records... nothing is off limits.

Pagar

Of course, accessing and reporting tax info would just be routine political attacks for the leftists. If you're looking for serious access crimes, Indicted">http://www.riehlworldview.com/carnivorous_conservative/2010/05/nine-indicted-for-accessing-obamas-student-loan-records.html">Indicted for accessing Obama's student loan records.

I believe the last I read the last name on the list had pled guilty and could face jail time and deportation. Don't know what happened to the rest.

Someone at a very high level is really serious about making sure Obama's records are kept hidden. Not so much about conservatives.

Rob Crawford

Also obtaining Michael Steele's social security number during his run for Senate in Maryland.

Didn't they "accidentally" leak Col. West's SSN as well?

Clarice

Yes and his wife's business account no.

The Missing Link is among us

Early man digs in Africa have unearthed remains of possible Tea=Party ancestors whose ferret-like cranium size resulted in an evolutionary cul-de-sac previously believed extinct.

Paleontologists have been scrambling to explain their error in light of current political events, and have responded by
classifying the retro-humans with the
species descriptor;

Americanus Ignoramus

RichatUF

Pager-

One of the guys that accessed Obama's passport records got capped. Yea, I know, paranoid style and all that...

Jane-

In re: the Koch brothers. Mayer's piece laid out the conspiracy and WaPo, NYT (esp. the editorial page), and progressive blogs have been expanding on it. Obama's Madison speech had a bit about it towards the end: "And thanks to a recent Supreme Court decision, they are being helped along this year, as I said, by special interest groups that are allowed to spend unlimited amounts of money on attack ads. They don't even have to disclose who's behind the ads. You've all seen the ads. Every one of these groups is rin by Republican operatives. Every single one of them-even though they're posing as nonprofit groups with names like Americans for Prosperity, or the Committee for Truth in Politics, or Americans for Apple Pie. I made that last one up."

jimmyk

Didn't they "accidentally" leak Col. West's SSN as well?

And let's not forget Joe the Plumber too.

narciso

And he was an employee of Brennan's company, as I recaLL,

Danube of Thought

Regrettably, Elena Kagan confirms her secret neo-Fascist Bushie agenda:

During her confirmation hearing for solicitor general, Ms. Kagan agreed with a questioner that someone suspected of helping to finance Al Qaeda should be subject to battlefield law — indefinite detention without a trial — even if he were captured in a place like the Philippines rather than in a physical battle zone.

(New York Times, May 9, 2010)

Porchlight

I'm a Twinkies fan Sue. Minnesotan family from way back.

Strawman Cometh

when I flipped around, I thought that Mooshell was on the mound in a Yankees uni throwing the first pitch.

Speciman

Christian private schools have been focusing primarily on dogmatic scriptural lessons to the detriment of scholastic studies, leaving a generation of passionate semi-literates whose ideology is easily manipulated by their handlers. In light of criticisms aimed at Muslim schools called "Madrassas" whose emphasis is more on the Quran than on reading, writing and arithmatic, it has been proposed that, heretofore, all the Tea Party Express candidates should be addressed as;

Imam Palin

Cleric Bohner

Ayatollah DeMint

MayBee

Very very clever, Speciman.

Pagar

RichatUF, I had forgotten about that no longer living example. They must really be worried about what is in his records.

Old Lurker

LUN is a Fox story on the Koch stuff.

The comments to this entry are closed.

Wilson/Plame