That Went Well!

The NY Times reports on Eric Holder's big idea:

Detainee Acquitted on Most Counts in ’98 Bombings

By BENJAMIN WEISER

The first former Guantánamo detainee to be tried in a civilian court was acquitted on Wednesday of all but one of more than 280 charges of conspiracy and murder in the 1998 terrorist bombings of the United States Embassies in Nairobi, Kenya, and Dar es Salaam, Tanzania.

The case has been seen as a test of President Obama’s goal of trying detainees in federal court whenever feasible, and the result may again fuel debate over whether civilian courts are appropriate for trying terrorists.

The defendant, Ahmed Khalfan Ghailani, 36, was convicted of one count of conspiracy to destroy government buildings and property. He was acquitted of six counts of conspiracy, including conspiring to kill Americans and use weapons of mass destruction.

When the judge’s clerk asked how the jury found on counts 11 to 223, which were all counts of murder, the jury foreman replied, “Not guilty.”

Mr. Ghailani faces a sentence of 20 years to life in prison.

 

Comments

[Tea=Bag, Smegma is your name]

"Mr. Ghailani faces a sentence of 20 years to life in prison."

Is there a problem?

[Melinda Romanoff]

Oooh, Oxycontin and Scotch night.

And I forgot to bring gifts.

[Terrye]

This is just disgusting.

[Dave (in MA)]

http://www.rightpundits.com/wp-content/photos/don__t_touch_my_junk.jpg>

Oxycontin and Scotch, and if the IP address is from MA, both can be paid for with Zeituni Bucks.

[Melinda Romanoff]

referring to previous post.

[Rex]

This was almost inevitable once the judge ruled that under normal Federal law, evidence obtained from "torture" was inadmissable. What puzzles me was why the prosecutors gave in on the "torture" issue--they assumed for purposes of the ruling that he was indeed tortured. They could have presented evidence that he wasn't, but they didn't.

This issue would also have come up in a military tribunal proceeding, but the secrecy permitted by a military judge would have allowed the prosecution to submit all the evidence they wanted without having to worry about tipping off the bad guys about methods and sources.

[Tea=Bag, Smegma is your name]

Why aren't the Tea-Bag Newbies in Congress Clamoring to be on the Appropriations Committee?

Is there a problem?

[Tea=Bag, Smegma is your name]

"gifts."

Rasputin says you are a daily gift, Romanov

[MarkO]

File under Obama and Holder are incompetent. Aren't we in the area of judicial notice of that fact?

Percocet and merlot.

[Danube of Thought]

Look at the silver lining: these incompetent simpletons will never pull this dumb stunt again.

And when a new president takes office in 2013 he can promptly direct that KSM be tried to a military court in Guantanamo, after which the executioner can rid the earth of his shadow.

In a just world he would be buried wrapped in bacon.

[peter]

What an absolute disgrace.
First of all this guy will probably appeal his sentencing so he might get out way sooner than 20 years from now. Complete disaster courtesy the human wrecking ball, Obama.

[Dubya]

.

"In a just world he would be buried wrapped in bacon."

Ummmmmmmmmmmm.

I loves me some bacon.

[Rick Ballard]

Well, Soros wants a different President, Representative Pelosi (with an 8% positive approval rating) remains the 'face' of the Democrat minority and the EU (home of 'free' medical care) strides boldly towards disintegration and bankruptcy.

What else is left for dimwitted proglodytes other than Percocet, vodka and feces flinging?

[Rick Ballard]

Well, Soros wants a different President, Representative Pelosi (with an 8% positive approval rating) remains the 'face' of the Democrat minority and the EU (home of 'free' medical care) strides boldly towards disintegration and bankruptcy.

What else is left for dimwitted proglodytes other than Percocet, vodka and feces flinging?

[Clarice]

Rex, As I recall it wasn't because of "torture" which Ghailani never established, The judge couldn't allow the evidence in because of the "fruits of the poisonous tree" doctrine which precludes the govt from using evidence which was obtained from a confession which was not taken under very rigid circumstances designed to prevent people in custody from self-incrimination.

[Dubya]

"What else is left for dimwitted proglodytes other than Percocet, vodka and feces flinging?"

If you are watching Tea-baggers hang themselves on their own Petards of Governance,
mind-altering substances are unnecessary.

[Porchlight]

Meth and Nighttrain.

Hi Cleo! You are early this week! Must be a particularly bad one for Barry.

[Captain Hate]

Steadman Shabazz Holder should've assigned the case to one of the voices screaming incoherently in the troll's otherwise empty head. It couldn't have prosecuted it any more ineptly.

[Dubya]

"You are early this week! Must be a particularly bad one for Barry."

Yes, Pooch. It's bad week for everyone.

And thanks for your concern. I'm going to try to be here early more often.

[Captain Hate]

Porch, have you listened to Girl Talk yet?

[glasater]

Pooch is Topsecretk9.

[Dubya]

"Pooch is Topsecretk9."

A dog by any other name will smell the same.

[Clarice]

I have a hard time getting the point of an expensive civilian trail when the judge and prosecutor have made clear at the outset that if the defendant is acquitted (or in the case of KSM never even tried) he can still be held in custody indefinitely.

Aside from moral preening, what is the point of such obvious show trials?

[Rick Ballard]

Dunno about that governance bit, dimwit. Ryan teamed up with Alice Rivlin (OMB Director for Clinton) on the deficit commission and came up with a bi-partisan proposal on Medicare and Medicaid. It probably won't provide dignity to an improvident lackwit like you but it may cover your condition (if there's a mental health component).

[RichatUF]

Rick-

He's just upset about the return on his investment. Obama's failure at the NATO and EU summits this weekend might make the boss happy.

[Melinda Romanoff]

clarice-

The point is Amoral preening. As Rick has so kindly pointed out, it's the logic of Saint-Simon, which means none what so ever.

[Porchlight]

Yay! More Cleo! Love, love love when he stops by, as it means the Barry-ometer is plunging.

[Dubya]

"as it means the Barry-ometer is plunging."

Whatever purges your anal glands, Pooch.

[Comanche Voter]

Unless you were hell bent for election to prove that "lawfare" was the way to go, you could have seen the judge's rulings coming--with the resulting effect on the trial.

In a just world this bozo would be incarcerated in the general population in one of the Huntsville TX prisons.

I think Obama and Holder have now learned that they are not going to try Khalid Sheik Muhammed in a civilian courthouse in New York City. But you know that ignorance can be cured and stupid is forever, so maybe they didn't learn their lesson from this fiasco.

[Rick Ballard]

Rich,

He's never been other than self interested scum - this may be his blow off to all the progs dumb enough to fall for his gaff. Demographics and the world wide OPM crop failure are running hard against the Benthamite BS which our elite credentialed moron political class has been peddling for over a hundred years.

The Austrian refusal to pay for any more of The Big Fat Greek Bailout is a pretty clear signal that Club Med is very close to going under. Ireland may get papered over for the moment but Spain and Portugal are right behind - and Merkel cannot agree to go much further and still keep her job.

[Rick Ballard]

Rich,

He's never been other than self interested scum - this may be his blow off to all the progs dumb enough to fall for his gaff. Demographics and the world wide OPM crop failure are running hard against the Benthamite BS which our elite credentialed moron political class has been peddling for over a hundred years.

The Austrian refusal to pay for any more of The Big Fat Greek Bailout is a pretty clear signal that Club Med is very close to going under. Ireland may get papered over for the moment but Spain and Portugal are right behind - and Merkel cannot agree to go much further and still keep her job.

[narciso]

Well keying off the previous thread, someone pointed out, a while back that 'No Miranda rights be given to Terrorists'. I don't know could it be that they thought the Tanzania
and Kenya bombings were too remote in their
experience, what other evidence do you need

[matt]

Eric Holder must go. More meditations. LUN

[Danube of Thought]

Obama just knew better than everybody else. Hell, he'd been law review president and a community organizer, hadn't he?

So he knew we needed to close Gitmo, and he ordered it to be done in a year. He knew we needed a stimulus--and fast!--or unemployment might soar above 8%. He knew the Cambridge police acted stupidly. He knew that if you liked your current plan you could keep it. He knew that the projects were shovel-ready. He knew that the IOC would be so dazzled they'd award the Olympics to Chicago.

And he knew we didn't need military commissions; we could try and convict these beasts in federal court.

[Clarice]

Well, Matt, one of the AG;s most important jobs is to keep his boss from making stupid legal moves, but if the AG is as foolish as the boss..............

[Melinda Romanoff]

Rick and Rich-

The contraction generated by the coming Chinese forced stimulus withdrawals just might have an impact on everything being repriced.

This piece opened a door for me, that I didn't realize was there.

More later.

G'night all.

[Clarice]

DoT, I like the NYT article suggesting that the KSM trial might still be a go...

My sharpened pike business looks better every day.

[BobDenver]

Don't go, Mel! Explain what it means!

[MarkO]

"what is the point of such obvious show trials?"

I guess it was to show how stupid Obama and Holder are. It worked.

He has set back at least 50 years the prospects of other minority presidential prospects. Talk about one and done.

[narciso]

That's like the sell order that the Duke Bros should have entertaining, if they had the right copy of the crops report

[Clarice]

For years I told people that if they found themselves in criminal jeopardy they should engage an atty who went to a place like Rutgers, not Harvard, Yale or Columbia.
QED in that, Mark.

[Rick Ballard]

BobDenver,

Here's the CNBC interpretation. The bit about the Chinese instituting price controls is interesting but I haven't seen any confirmation.

[Rex]

Clarice,

It wasn't a confession per se; what Ghailani did was to cough up info which led to another witness. The circumstances of the interrogation were claimed to be torture, which would make the evidence (the witness and his statements) fruit of the poisonous tree. When the issue was raised before the judge, the prosecutor agreed, only for purposes of the motion, that Ghailani was indeed subjected to a torturous, coercive interrogation. At that point, the judge's hands were tied.

This issue would not have come up, or the motion would have been denied, if this had been a military tribunal instead of a regular trial.

[RichatUF]

BobDenver-

A trap door? Don't want to take Mel's thunder, but this is what I got out of it:

The world is setting up for a balance of payments crisis in both the developing and developed world, not too dissimiliar to the Asian Financial Crisis, though on a much grander scale. China has a high level of financial repression (the "This Time is Different" definition) and that its stimulus has driven domestic inflation. The Chinese stimulus program has also driven the boom in commodities prices and emerging markets since early 09. When China scales back its stimulus, it will reduce demand for commodities globally, which will reduce trade, and then growth, globally.

In Europe and Asia, this is problematic because they are generally export lead economies (or more specifically, Germany is an export lead economy and the most healthy in Europe and the EU is in the middle of a banking crisis and sovereign crisis crimping consumer spending and business confidence {I'd also say political stability but that looks to be down the road a bit}. China is an export lead developing country but they don't have the institutions to deal with the coming political problems that economic weakness will expose or a level of domestic demand that could tie them over while the rest of the world works out its problems. Both are dependent on US consumer spending and debt markets and both of those are impaired to varying degrees).

Or shorter: May we live in interesting times.

[Danube of Thought]

Somebody tell me when I should put everything in gold. Bury it in the back yard, load up on high-end booze, fine wine and fine food, and sit around with a .pre-'64 Winchester Model 70 in 30-'06 across my lap watching the NFL in Hi-Def.

I'm ready.

[Rick Ballard]

Rich,

The Chinese are also not taking much comfort from Uncle Ben's willingness to print up whatever amount he feels necessary. They made moves predicated upon a "normal" business recession and are noticing the same thing that Cisco just reported - the new orders aren't there. AFSCME members are still being paid though - I'm sure that's a consolation.

[glasater]

Not fair DOT--you've got the Navy surrounding you. :-)

[BR]

Heh, do it before the end of the year, DoT. Someone mentioned that hidden in one of those 1001 page-laws, was it Obamacare? is an item that in 2011 all gold purchases by Americans will be reported to the govt or some such thing.

[BR]

Typo, I meant Obamascared.

And the Cancun Climate Clowns say: "Shhhhhh."

[BR]

I resent that the Cancun Climate Crims are going on a junket to one of my future vacation spots. I don't want them to foul up the air there. Ha, wouldn't it be funny if a notice went out to all the 60-some participants that the Cancun Conference is Cancelled. No one wants to host them anymore. It's bad for the tourism business.

[matt]

back from the business dinner I was heading to when I wrote the blog. Bottom line is that Ghailani gave up the name of Abedi, the legal explosives dealer in Tanzania, I believe, who sold him the explosives.

There were no threats that we know of the Abedi, nor was he a suspect. The only issue was that Ghailani gave up the name.

Therefore, the judge in the case declared the testimony inadmissible. Under civil rules, this may be a wise decision, but the key evidence linking the terrorist with the act of terrorism was thus inadmissible, leading to an outright acquittal when in fact the defendant had confessed.

What part of Eric Holder should be sent to Guantanamo as a "guest" don't we understand?

[matt]

DoT, c'mon up 80 miles or so and I'll make the martinis and 'splain the precious metals market. Gold, silver and lead.

[BobDenver]

So ... are we talking Global Depression?

[JM Hanes]

Here is a PDF of Judge Kaplan's Oct. 6th Order. I didn't try to find his earlier order, in which the court

rejected [Gjailani's] motions to dismiss the indictment on the grounds that he was deprived of a speedy trial and that his treatment by the Central Intelligence Agency ("CIA") was so outrageous as to require termination of the charges.

I did try, but couldn't locate the redacted "supplemental opinion containing the Court's findings of fact and conclusions of law," which I assume remained classified in full. I also assume that's why the gov. "respectfully" disagreed with the order, but declined to appeal.

I do remember being pretty shocked by the centerpiece of Kaplan's 3-page public Order [Italics mine]:

Abebe was identified and located as a close and direct result of statements made by Ghailani while he was held by the CIA. The government has elected not to litigate the details of Ghailani's treatment while in CIA custody. It has sought to make this unnecessary by asking the Court to assume in deciding this motion that everything Ghailani said while in CIA custody was coerced. [1] In these circumstances, the Constitution does not permit Abebe to testify in this criminal trial unless the government has sustained its burden of proving that (l) the connection between Ghailani's coerced statements and Abebe's testimony is sufficiently remote or attenuated, or (2) there is another basis upon which that testimony properly may be received.

The Court has had the benefit of extensive evidentiary submissions, a three-day hearing at which Abebe and representatives of the Federal Bureau of Investigation, the CIA, the Tanzanian National Police testified, legal briefs, and skilled argument. On the basis of that record -- including importantly its assessment of the credibility of the only witnesses called to testify who actually were present when Abebe was persuaded to confess his role, to implicate Ghailani, and to cooperate with authorities -- it now finds and concludes that the government has failed to prove that Abebe's testimony is sufficiently attenuated from Ghailani' s coerced statements to permit its receipt in evidence. In a previous decision, it rejected the other bases advanced by the government for allowing Abebe to testify. United States v. Ghailani, _ F. Supp.2d _, 2010 WL 3430514 (S.D.N.Y. Aug. 17,2010). Accordingly, the motion to preclude Abebe's testimony is granted.

Here is footnote [1]:

[1] "THE COURT: Here you . . . are asking me to assume for the purposes of deciding the motion that everything Ghailani said from the minute he arrives in CIA custody till the minute he gets to Guantanamo at least is coerced? MR. FARBIARZ: Yes, Judge, yes.

"THE COURT: Here we have really coerced testimony. MR. FARBIARZ: Yes." Tr., Sept. 15, 2010, at 370.

Did the government assume they had already resolved the coercion issue to advantage in the Judge's earlier ruling? Their subsequent decision to let the charge of torture hang fire suggests they knew -- probably from the outset -- that the details of Ghailani's incarceration (whether or not it included torture) were so sensitive that they could never be aired in court.

IIRC, Andy McCarthy believed that the prosecutors must have had reason to believe they could win a conviction without Abebe's testimony. It looks a lot more likely to me now that Holder's DoJ probably ordered them to proceed despite what turned out to be a terminal weakness in their case, and then sat back just hoping for a miracle. Or maybe Holder presumed, as Obama apparently did, that a jury of New Yorkers would never let Ghailani off the hook.

[JM Hanes]

Man, these avatars squeeze the hell out of block quotes.

[JM Hanes]

Did the government's stipulation as to Ghailani's assertions for the purposes of this specific ruling mean that the torture issue was consequently deemed germane to the jury trial itself?

[Extraneus]

One of the great things about the narcisolator is its ability to suppress the avatars.

[narciso]

How did they think they would come to another result under that circumstance, the Govt effectively 'refudiating' the testimony of it's corroborating witness, 'that word you are using,' had to yield a different result

[Pagar]

I don't know if it is the narcisolator or Firefox, but I have no avatars here.

Nothing from what I have read concerning the fallout from this trial convinces me that DOJ /Holder have learned anything from this farce.

[peter]

DOT, now.

[Pagar]

I don't know if it is the narcisolator or Firefox, but I have no avatars here.

Nothing from what I have read concerning the fallout from this trial convinces me that DOJ /Holder have learned anything from this farce.

[Donald]

I read a wall street journal piece on Alice Rivlin about 15 years ago.

Came off as a nasty chain smoking apparatchik kinda bitch to me.

Kinda like Christiane Ammanpour with a jersey/New York (How the hell do I know) accent.

[Donald]

http://www.tvguide.com/tvshows/wiseguy-1988/episode-20-season-1/dirty-little-wars/205557

Ok, it's Isle Pavot. You tell me that's not Barak Obama.

[Clarice]

http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/holder-strikes-out-in-first-gitmo-civilian-trial/>Holder strikes Out

JMH I think originally they thought the judge would put his fingers on the scale and then later that the jury would. Projection, I think.Neither he nor his boss can imagine honest people following the law.

[Well, clear to someone at Justice, anyway.]

Clear to Clarice, then. Clear to Holder, now.
============

[DebinNC]

Insty is lauching Clarice's Holder piece.

[J]

I think the not-so-subtle message of holding a trial for a murder that you have already, in your kingly way, declared guilty, dangerous and you are intending to permanently incarcerate him, is to make clear that you are above the law and the USA is now ruled by a dictator. How else to explain to anyone, citizen of this country or enemy, that king obama will be the final authority on everything?

[sbw]

I like the avatars because they allow me to recognize when cleo has morphed so I can add a new name to the narcisolator.

[BobDenver]

I submit that the jury DID put a finger on the scale on behalf of the prosecution. They picked a non-murder charge and gave it a guilty verdict so the scumbag wouldn't go free. But they refused to do more, in view of the lack of evidence and the resulting shambles that was the government's case.

[NK]

Barry O will shortly announce that no further US Disrtrict Court trials for terrorists will proceed; all AQ detainees will remain at Gitmo as "guests" of the US Gov't pending review of US and International law. Eric Holder resigns on 'principle.' Holder meet bus.

[NK]

PS: I agree with BobDenver, the gov't 's case for murder was a joke. The gov't was lucky to get the conspiracy conviction for a man who is obviously guilty, but the gov't couldn't prove it beyond a reasonable doubt in a Federal Court trial. Holder, his whole left-wing justice dept crew and barry o. are a collective joke. The commenters at JOM have made that case for 20 months. I think the verdict is now in that we have been right all along.

[BR]

I like your style, NK!

[BR]

I see him out before two years.

[Jack is Back!]

Watching this trail, Ted Mack has told Entertainment Tonight that he is thinking about making a comeback.

[Captain Hate]

Eric Holder resigns on 'principle.' Holder meet bus.

I don't see this happening. Throughout all the gaffes of the Clinton/Reno DOJ, Steadman Shabazz remained in place despite being hip deep in nearly all of them. Plus he's so completely in tune with Toonces on everything, including a stunning illiteracy about legal matters, that it would be like Bammy himself resigning.

[Porchlight]

Went to go read Clarice's piece at PJM, but the site seems to be down.

[Clarice]

It is down, porch. Check your gmail and you'll find my copy.

[Porchlight]

Thanks, Clarice! Got it.

[PD]

it would be like Bammy himself resigning.

I'd settle for that.

[Cecil Turner]

Y'know, way back when I seem to recall there were complaints about using civilian trials for unlawful combatants that went something like this:

1. Rules of evidence are problematic in wartime, and available evidence may not work within rules designed to keep police from violating suspects' rights;
2. Terrorists' lawyers can use federal proceedings as a megaphone for their propaganda, negating any PR value;
3. Civilian juries tend to be unwilling to convict on military crimes; and,
4. Military commissions are the proper venue for war crimes in any event.

Glad to see none of those came to pass. [/eyeroll]

Nothing from what I have read concerning the fallout from this trial convinces me that DOJ /Holder have learned anything from this farce.

Concur that the learning curve appears to be flat. But the larger issue is that he shouldn't have been in charge of it in the first place: it's a military concern, not a legal one. And that brings the blame right back to the President's doorstep, where it belongs.

. . . if they had the right copy of the crops report.

Spot on. And it's more than a little funny that one of the security guards is providing "advice and consent."

[Vince]

You're doing a heckuva job, Holdie!

[NK]

Hate-- you may be right. But Barry O has no loyalty to anyone. Holder is an ideological comrade, but so was Rev Wright, and barry O ran him over with the bus and backed up over him a second time. So, if Barry thinks it's in his interests to introduce Holder to the bus, there's a Greyhound express waiting for Holder.

[Jeff]

Is there a problem ?

Earmark ban - Done ...

Leadbetter II - spiked in the Senate ...

START treaty - will wait until 2011

Force a vote on NPR funding - soon ...

Nope ... No problem ...

[cathyf]

Rules of evidence are problematic in wartime, and available evidence may not work within rules designed to keep police from violating suspects' rights

Not to mention that we send our soldiers into battle precisely to violate enemy soldiers' "rights". I mean you are an infantryman, in the uniform of your country's armed forces, and you pop your head up out of the foxhole. The other side is gonna try to blow your head off, and that is precisely what they are supposed to be doing. You are a robbery suspect sticking up out of a foxhole, the police can't blow your head off unless you are doing something threatening!

When you take up arms against another country, you give up your right not to be shot at!

[Porchlight]

Nope ... No problem ...

Yes, but we have at least six GOP squishes in the Senate on the DREAM act, per Malkin: McCain, Snowe, Collins, Hutchison, Brownback, Lemieux. And Lugar a sponsor and firm supporter.

I'm worried.

[Hal]

"Aside from moral preening, what is the point of such obvious show trials?"

It seems to be so people here can whinge about it. They certainly aren't interested in the result.

The guy got convicted and sentenced to 20 to life. This is somehow a problem while the non-civilian trials have been handing out sentences of up to a whole year. These were a-ok while we are told this is supposed to be an embarrassment.

Carry on about this as much as you like, but if your outrage is in line with the families of the men on trial for terrorism, you don't get to refer to anyone else as appeasing terrorists.

Oh my, can you imagine what we'd see from these hypocrites if Barry released 500 hundred Gitmo inmates without charge.

[mockmook]

Hey Hal,

He murdered over 200 people.

So, 20 years seems a tad light, no?

[Ignatz]

--The guy got convicted and sentenced to 20 to life.--

He's appealing it of course and only has to get lucky on one count to get off free as a bird.