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December 17, 2010

Comments

MarkO

Baseball over football every time.

Ignatz

We have some good friends whose daughter underwent total bone marrow transplant for a type of leukemia. If this guy did the same thing they're not emphasizing how traumatic it is.
Intense chemo (and radiation?) to kill ALL of the patient's marrow then a long, delicate and painful recovery with all of the concerns for rejection and infection that go with any transplant. And of course you had to be woefully sick and out of other treatment options in the first place to even qualify.
They tell her she is now cancer free and cured so blessings on Mr. Sallach.

Jack is Back!

I believe his name is pronounced like "scissors" IIRC. Villanova has one heck of a good football team. Should be able to see them tonight on ESPN as they play Eastern Washington at 8pm in the semi-final of the Div. 1 FCS. They have one of their lineman made All-American. I saw them last week dismantle perennial powerhouse Appalachian State at their own home field. These wildcats can play more than Big East Basketball.

Master JiB and I are at Orlando airport getting ready to fly up to Islip and spend Christmas and New Year in Southampton. Supposed to be a white Christmas. We hope so. Last year it was the first time Master JiB ever saw snow and we got 2 feet overnight on the 20th of December. Can do without that much but he wants to sled. So fingers crossed.

Dave (in MA)

There was just a story in the NH/MA media yesterday about people soliciting prospective bone marrow donors in shopping centers. It seems that they use models to rope in well-meaning folks to get tested (legitimately) and put in the registry, and then bill insurance companies for about $4000 for a test whose costs run around $100.

Clarice

Those kids and that coach are really something, TM. Nice to know there are people like that still around.

peter

A buddy of mine with Leukemia had his life extended by a bone marrow transplant, but he's not out of the woods yet. If some of you JOMers could direct your prayers to Frank of Merrick, Long Island, I'm sure it would do him some good.

anduril

I believe his name is pronounced like "scissors"

1. Say "fresh cheese"

2. Next say "shcheese"

3. Now say "shchur" and you'll be close.

4. Whether he even knows the correct way to pronounce his name is another story.

larry

Always happy to add to my prayer list, peter.

This looks like as good a place for this as any. Anyone who's interested about the school board shooting down here in Panama City can get some feel good at the LUN about the guy that stopped it. Mike Jones is one of those really special people you'd expect to do the right thing.

Charlie (Colorado)

Betcha a dollar he either says "sure" or "choor".

Jane (sit on the couch or save your country)

I think that is the first time TM has ever made me cry.

larry

Jenna Lee just interviewed him on FNC. Oh yeah, salvagesantadotcom. Send him a buck if you feel like it. It'll go to the right place.

peter

I think that is the first time TM has ever made me cry.

You never read one of Anduril's posts by mistake?

Ignatz

--A buddy of mine with Leukemia had his life extended by a bone marrow transplant, but he's not out of the woods yet.--

peter,
Took our friend's teenage daughter at least a couple of years to get the all clear, and she had many set backs and scares along the way.
Frank is on the prayer list.

Frau Dankbar

TM brings the best of Christmas cheer to his sometimes unruly group.

cathyf
...rope in well-meaning folks to get tested (legitimately) and put in the registry, and then bill insurance companies for about $4000 for a test whose costs run around $100.
...and the insurance company computer reduces the amount to $90 and sends 'em a check...

Which is where they earn that overhead.

DrJ

cathyf,

Any way to find out what the negotiated rates are? Our current carrier seems not to receive much of a discount from "retail." Perhaps they are too small, but is there some way to find out beforehand?

Jane (get off the couch - come save the country)

You never read one of Anduril's posts by mistake?

LOL - now laughing here happens all the time.

cathyf
Any way to find out what the negotiated rates are? Our current carrier seems not to receive much of a discount from "retail." Perhaps they are too small, but is there some way to find out beforehand?
My husband refers to it as the "random bill reducer." Perhaps knowing the subspecies of chicken whose entrails they are reading would help?

My endocrinologist charges absolutely ridiculous top-line rates, which my insurance company routinely reduces to much more reasonable-looking charges, but some items are cut by only a little and some by 95%. The local hospital and clinic charge much more reasonable-looking rates, and then the insurance company takes a straight 10% off of them.

Market mechanisms and price discovery has been a particular interest of mine since my days of working for Chicago pit traders. Transparency is not exactly a basic component of healthcare pricing fer sure...

DrJ

Transparency is not exactly a basic component of healthcare pricing fer sure...

It's maddening. My doc recommended that I have a certain test performed, and neither the insurance company nor the service provider would give me any hint of what the cost might be. Since I have a high deductible plan, the cost does matter!

And then try to compare one insurance provider with another for the reimbursement schedules. Argh!

anduril
I believe his name is pronounced like "scissors"

1. Say "fresh cheese"

2. Next say "shcheese"

3. Now say "shchur" and you'll be close.

4. Whether he even knows the correct way to pronounce his name is another story.

Posted by: anduril | December 17, 2010 at 12:11 PM

I think that is the first time TM has ever made me cry.

You never read one of Anduril's posts by mistake?

Posted by: peter | December 17, 2010 at 12:34 PM

You never read one of Anduril's posts by mistake?

LOL - now laughing here happens all the time.

Posted by: Jane (get off the couch - come save the country) | December 17, 2010 at 03:43 PM

Call me naive, but I'm still sometimes a bit surprised by the degree of malice around here.

Ignatz

--I'm still sometimes a bit surprised by the degree of malice around here--

Really? After calling anyone who disagrees with you stupid, ignorant, disingenuous, dishonest etc, and frequently just calling people those things even if they're not talking to or about you, such as that hamfisted, graceless jab at Deb the other day?

It's like a guy who goes around poking people in the eye with a stick being surprised at the malice demonstrated by the folks with the bleeding eyes.

peter

Anduril,
I was just kidding, and I did not mean to hurt your feelings.sorry if you were hurt.

anduril

hurt? weird. just a bit surprised.

hey, don't the cubs have a thing about drafting wide receivers? didn't they draft jeff samardzija, a wide receiver from notre dame, a few years ago?

MaryW

DrJ , cathyf,

The insurance discounts very not only by carrier but by provider network. You know who the carrier is but rarely what provider network is involved. Beechstreet is one of many networks. When we handled a lot of medical insurance we paid the provider network to review and reprice on behalf of the insurance carrier. A lot of the repricing is done by these networks.

cathyf - which exchange? I know you are younger than I am but like a few of us I was at the CBOT when stock options made their appearance. The firm I was with was also at the merc. It was fascinating to see those "handshake" transactions. My experience was mostly backroom - accounting and clearing.

DrJ - ask your physician for the procedure codes he will bill. Actually ask the person who files the claims for him. Do the same at the facility that will be used. You may be surprised by how many codes apply. Once you have those you may be able to get some idea of the cost. If that does not work, I can ask my husband or more likely his partner for some help. She managed a claim paying operation in the past and still has contacts.

We had to tell our carrier that since we were paying they were not allowed to reprice the bill to a greater number. HSAs are not understood by a lot of people. Then since you are paying try to negotiate the facility fee down. There are discounts available if you push. My husband talked an emergency room bill down about 35%.

DrJ

MaryW,

What you describe is essentially what we did. We had to ask our neighbor, who handles billing for a Doc's office, what a ballpark cost might be. She told us.

Still, I know of no other business where one commits to pay a bill when one has no idea what the service will cost. And it makes comparing one insurance plan with another, particularly if they are HSA plans, nearly impossible.

This is one area where legislation requiring transparency might be a good idea.

MaryW

DrJ

As medical insurance has beoome healthcare transparency has disappeared.

This is my husband's area of expertise. I can always ask him a question on your behalf.

Threadkiller

--"Still, I know of no other business where one commits to pay a bill when one has no idea what the service will cost.--"

Now if you were a car, you are protected from fraudulent billing.

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My three step program to fix health care:

1: If you have insurance and go to a covered emergency room, the hospital cannot employ doctors, within that emergency room, that will not accept your coverage as payment in full.

2: Medical providers that expect to get paid by an insurance plan have to wear something similar to a">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merit_badge_(Boy_Scouts_of_America)"> merit badge sash. On that sash are badges representing insurers that the provider accepts. Then there can be no confusion about coverage and payment.


3: If there is a dispute over the bill, after 2 attempts to resolve the dispute through the billing dept, the doctor must give you a free office visit with him/her to discuss the bill and resolve it. The doctors, right now, can point to the billing dept and wash their hands of billing conflict. This is their business, the billing dept are their employees. They need to be accountable for how they get paid. Believe me if the boss has to lose money by having to see angry customers instead of paying patients, the business model will change.

DrJ

Thanks, MaryW. This test turns out not to have been particularly costly, so in this instance it turned out not to be a big deal. I may take you up on your offer in the future, though.

I agree with your comment on health insurance vs. health care. The former practically is dead. Sad, because that's all my wife or I need.

cathyf

Mary -- I worked for a mid-sized options trading firm in Chicago from 1985-90. I was the computer systems manager, and also did options pricing models and risk analysis programs. We traded in Chicago at the CBOT and Merc, and in NY at the comex, nymex & csc. (On 9/11, my old company's offices in the WTC were the topmost floor where everyone on the floor survived...)

As for health insurance, I've been arguing all along that the most important part of the product that is a "health care plan" is that the structure is such that the financial interests of the insurance company and the patients align together against the providers, so that the insurance company acts as your agent in negotiating terms and fees. Doctors and hospitals can basically charge you whatever they want up to bankrupting you, and you don't have the specialized knowledge or the big company clout to push back.

It's been a long time since I looked at HSAs (actually they were MSAs when I looked at them). I thought that they way that it worked was pretty much the same as traditional insurance. The providers submit the bills to your insurance company, and they would do the magic-chicken-entrail-bill-reducing algorithm on them, and until you meet your deductible you pay, then you pay a percentage (we are 80/20) and then they pay 100% after that -- but all the numbers are based upon the post-chicken-entrail prices. The only difference with an HSA is that you are paying the prices for longer before the insurance kicks in, because the deductible is bigger.

The real problem is that everyone who receives health care gets different stuff that costs different amounts and it's highly uncertain. I can't predict how much it will cost to heat my house this winter because it depends upon the weather, and the price of heating oil, and if I have a lot of time with normal people in my house. (My office where I am typing this is 58.3F and I am very comfortable...) And that's for a highly standardized commodity and a single, well-known furnace that I have an 8-year history with. Compare this to health care, which is way more of an approximation, with providers and payers constantly jockeying for financial advantage.

MaryW

cathyf

That is definitely how HSAs are supposed to work. We were a little bit surprised to find our carrier had a different idea. Our children are grown and for 2 adults with no health problems this seems to be the best option. Plus we are in the over 60 category and making larger contributions which can be used for our share of medicare.

I left Chicago in late 74 and moved to London where you could watch the daisies grow while waiting for your trades to clear. The exchanges had computers but hurry up and drink some tea while you wait was common.

Now I get to play with the computers but my husband builds the pricing models and policies and I get to build the billing / accounting systems.

srp

The Covert Rationing Blog is chock full of insight on the opacity of our medical industry. And the guy is a pretty amusing writer. LUN

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I have a dream that one day every colour shall be changed, every blue should be added yellow and every yellow should be added blue, there will be no other colours but holy a green!

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