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December 20, 2010

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MoodyBlu

Another instance of calling a conservative racist. Pfft, same stuff, different day.

LouP

H-m-m-m. Mississippi's a red state. Gotta come up with some rationalization for why it's not blue. Hell hath no fury like a Liberal/Progressive scorned.

And that's all we need to know about that - except we'll be seeing a lot more of this line-of-attack.

Rob Crawford

Pfeh. Citing scholarly works against Yglesias' bigotry and ignorance -- you know which side leftists will agree with!

And, seriously, is this the standard we're going to let people apply? Obama shrugged off Ayers' history of violence with "I was eight years old at the time" -- but he freely associated not just with Ayers as an adult but spent twenty years listening to the bile pumped out of "Reverend" Wright's pulpit -- and it was all considered immaterial.

Here Barbour was eight years old and has a kid's memory of the events. Did he spend 20 years of Sundays listening to a white supremacist preach? Did he ally himself with race hustlers, scam artists, and other crooks?

Compared to Obama, Barbour is the idealization of MLK, Jr's Dream.

Porchlight

Lame, but a Barbour nomination would be the stuff of prog dreams. Imagine the Narrative Possibilities...

bgates

Rob, Barbour was born in 1947. By the time the schools were integrated he was 23. Yes, that might still be younger than Obama was when he began his lifelong working relationship with committed anti-American terrorist Bill Ayers.

Here's a "Name That Writer" challenge:
“We were Eastland Democrats,” Haley told me, referring to James O. Eastland, the long-serving U.S. senator, steadfast conservative, committed segregationist, and the bane of the national party’s left wing.... [I]deologically the leap from Eastland Democrat to Goldwater Republican was not death-defying

I'll give you a hint - it's one of TM's links.

Jim Rhoads a/k/a vjnjagvet

Looks like a preemptory strike to me.

Rob Crawford

Rob, Barbour was born in 1947. By the time the schools were integrated he was 23.

The specific incident discussed took place in 1955. He was eight.

By the time Obama was 23, he was a committed Marxist with more dope passing through his system than through a Mexican border crossing.

Rick

"Mississippi's a red state. Gotta come up with some rationalization for why it's not blue. Hell hath no fury like a Liberal/Progressive scorned."

Since it *was* blue back when it was a hotbed of racism, I think that might suggest the reason right there.

Cordially...

Rick Ballard

Jim Rhoads,

Agreed. The sole purpose for the existence of juice boxers is to provide "net neutral" content to be 'found' by search engines at the appropriate time. That he is as wrong as he is stupid is immaterial.

I wonder if Eastland was more racist than Bill Clinton's idol and mentor, Fulbright? How would one measure? Were either of them as racist as the President's own pastor?

jpe

yglesias is just noting that those fine businessmen were racist scumbags. You sure seem to be going far out of your way to defend them.

maryrose

Jim Rhoads:
You hit the nail right on the head. This is a preemptive strike against Barbour because he is a viable candidate with way more gravitas and substance than Obama will ever have in his lifetime.

srp

Princeton University constantly lionizes Woodrow Wilson, has a public policy school named after him, etc. Somehow his bone-deep racism and bigotry, carried out, for example, by purging the civil service of blacks (among other methods) gets a pass.

I suspect the reason is because Wilson was, besides a guy who made the university much more prominent, the leader of the pack in trying to replace our constitutional republic with a technocratic Leviathan. James Madison, Princeton figure and one of the key architects of that republic, gets comparatively short shrift.

Zeitgeist indicator: When Madison gets more public love at Princeton than Wilson, the reverse march through the institutions will be complete.

Rob Crawford

yglesias is just noting that those fine businessmen were racist scumbags. You sure seem to be going far out of your way to defend them.

They were/are no more nor less racist than "Reverend" Wright and President Obama.

Pointing that out is no defense of them; it's condemnation of the modern segregationists, race-hustlers, and hate-pimps.

narciso

"Eastland Democrat" rings a little off, here's an example, in the LUN but my Dalton and Harvard educated paisan, is off as usual, in his assumptions, Ace has his fur on fire, like the maimed ewok in yesterday's robot chicket

Captain Hate

yglesias is just noting that those fine businessmen were racist scumbags.

Oh well, if you put it that way; because twatty Matty's the smartest douchetool in the world, right? And his racism meter must be calibrated as accurately as his global warming meter. So if Matty just notes something, then the herd of smart guys just falls right into line without bothering to exert their really really big brains on it.

WTF I'm convinced.

lyle

"You sure seem to be going far out of your way to defend them."

Did you actually read this piece? Your hair-trigger (oooh, scary gun metaphor!) response reveals either poor reading/cognition or simple prog narrative allegiance.

Rob Crawford

(It's the latter, lyle. The left has received their marching orders. Expect none of them to actually consider the facts.)

bgates

The specific incident discussed took place in 1955.

The specific incident I mentioned was the same one that Ferguson asked Barbour about, prompting the mention of the Citizens Council: the desegregation of the schools, which happened in 1970.

Rob Crawford

Then we're talking about different things, bgates; what I read earlier spoke about events in 1955.

bgates

Incidentally, I was pretty annoyed about Ferguson's claim that Democrats who used the power of the state to enforce racism were ideologically compatible with Goldwater Republicans who didn't want to use state force against any peaceable citizens at all.

Jim Rhoads a/k/a vjnjagvet

The Dems have much to fear in Barbour. He is one of the most astute, experienced and articulate politicians around. His performance as Governor of Mississippi in the aftermath of Katrina was recognized by many as without peer. He won reelection after Katrina and has a 70% approval rating. He is only the second Republican Governor of Mississippi since Reconstruction.

Before that, he ran the Republican National Committee when it took over the House and Senate.

Cf Obama the rookie Senator/(co) author when he had the audacity (sic) to run for President.

He does not have as much baggage as Newt and Rudy, and is more likable and natural than Romney. He is also a genuine conservative in his performance.

Extraneus

Did Barbour walk at Selma? I rest my case.

narciso

Seems like a full on Journolist strike, 'All Wings standing by,"

narciso

The following gives you a perspective on Mr. McMillen, as if there was a calm way to consider the treason of an Alger Hiss

anduril

From Steven J. Vaughan-Nichols:

Linux rules the Clouds

Color me surprised. I knew that Linux, while still only a niche player on the desktop, was continuing to do well on the server and was doing even better than ever on the cloud. What I hadn’t realized was just how much better Linux, and in particular, Canonical’s Ubuntu, was doing on in the market place.

Before I’d seen The Cloud Market’s analysis of operating systems on Amazon Elastic Compute Cloud (EC2), off the cuff I would have guessed the leading operating system on the top cloud platform would have been Red Hat and its close relatives, CentOS, Oracle Enterprise Linux, and Fedora. Boy was I wrong.

Today, December 20th, Ubuntu is running 4,840 instances on EC2, followed by CentOS, with 1,250, Fedora with 313; Oracle with 80; and Red Hat with a mere 73 instances. That’s a grand total of 1,716 for the Red Hat family, which means that Ubuntu is doing more than twice as well as all the Red Hat variants put together.

Windows and Azure? They’re back in the back with a mere 1,120 instances.

...

Extraneus

Well at least this isn't racism. Oh wait...

Brother pleads guilty to beating Harry Potter actress

narciso

R S McCain has linked you, so expect incoming
from the 101st trolling brigade

Ignatz

--R S McCain has linked you, so expect incoming
from the 101st trolling brigade--

Heh. Was just going to say it's too bad TM didn't save this thread for a Friday night, so cleo could fleck a little foam over it.

snow removal

Sylvania Superstar Ultra Headlights

Charlie (Colorado)

Okay, Anduril, I give up. What in the world makes you think that Steve's (an old friend of mine btw) article on Linux in large-scale distributed computing has to do with Yglesias' misinformed and misbegotten article about Haley Barbour?

It's not even that I disagree, although since I'm currently occupied at the day job trying to get Linux to do the right thing under heavy I/O loads, I do sometimes wish we were using a grownup operating system. (And no, that doesn't mean Windows.)

I just can't figure out what you think any but a few people here are interested, or how you imagine it is of any relation whatsoever to the topic.

narciso

It's about as logical as deporting Iraqi Chaldeans from Sweden, back to that country,
and the immigration minister, passing the buck
to his spokesman

Haley's Vomit

Now All Racists Are Violent?

Yglesias never uses the word violent, so we'll be expecting a retraction any minute now.

Haley's Vomit:

Mr. Barbour warned that if the aide persisted in racist remarks, he would be reincarnated as a watermelon and placed at the mercy of blacks.

LUN

Haley's Vomit

In other news, German-Americans hold a ball to celebrate Hitler's control of German forces.

Dec 20, 1941:
Hitler to Halder: No retreat!

On this day, in one of his first acts as the new commander in chief of the German army, Adolf Hitler informs General Franz Halder that there will be no retreating from the Russian front near Moscow. "The will to hold out must be brought home to every unit!"

LUN

sbw

Do they ever get tired of Alinskying people? No. Have you no sense of decency, sir, at long last? Have you left no sense of decency?

Haley's Vomit

Have you left no sense of decency?

Just to lighten things up a bit, this is for all the nice white Christian folk who post here:

Michelle Obama sure has a big black ass!

Danube of Thought

Abundant preening to follow.

Sara (Pal2Pal)

Steve Landesberg, best known for his role in "Barney Miller" has died. He was only 65.

Haley's Vomit

Citizen's Council:


Boatbuilder

Are Black people really so fragile? Do they really get the vapors because a Mississippi politician used a racially insensitive term in criticizing one of his staff for outright bigotry in 1982? Does any truthful discussion of what actually happened in 1955 and 1970 become radioactive if a Republican is involved?
I would like to believe that, in spite of the demogoguery of so-called "leaders" of the black community and the hysteria of white libs like Yglesias, most black people are a little sharper than that, and know the game that is being played. Doesn't mean that they will, or should, vote for or even like Haley Barbour. But they must know that this sort of attack is, at its basic level, a joke. Maybe they go along with it because it hurts their political enemies, but in their hearts they must know it's pure theater.

Danube of Thought

And how 'bout that punk faggot Al Sharpton of Hymietown?

Danube of Thought

Betcha ol' Haley wants to cut Barack's nuts off, doncha think?

sbw

"Time bigots" is the name I give to those who telescope history, applying today's judgments as if those in the long past were somehow living today in the next city block.

These one dimensional people seem to think theirs is the moral high ground when they have no sense of humanity and where morality comes from. Sad, isn't it, how they try to club people into silence rather than come to understanding.

Truly, trolls never grow.

sbw

Let's see. Whose flaws today matter most? Who would I rather govern? Haley Barbour or Barack Obama? Easy choice for me.

Haley's Vomit

"Time bigots" is the name I give to those who telescope history, applying today's judgments as if those in the long past were somehow living today in the next city block.

Conservative bigots around the world applaud your magnanimity. You are their truest friend and staunchest defender.

Melinda Romanoff

I see we have a Godwin opening gambit, for a change.

Or a broken record.

Jim Rhoads a/k/a vjnjagvet

Clearly, the appropriately surnamed troll apparently hasn't read this site very much. I challenge him to find any bigoted comment by TM or any regular commenter on JOM. Of course he can't. Throwing out nothing but ad hominems is the most craven form of trollery.

Danube of Thought

Good one, sbw. The prototypical time bigots are the ones who trash Washington and Jefferson because they owned slaves, or who fault the framers of the constitution for not giving women the vote. And of course U.S. Grant didn't push for repeal of DADT.

A veritable cornucopia of preening material in our nation's sordid past.

Haley's Vomit

I see we have a Godwin opening gambit

Conservatives would do themselves some good by just saying "Yeah, Haley fucked up."

But inexplicably, apologias for 200 horrific years of slavery and racism always seems to be the more attractive approach to conservatives.

"Say neighbor... sorry I field dressed your kids in the driveway. I certainly can't justify it, but shit happens, ya know?"

Haley's Vomit

the ones who trash Washington and Jefferson

Glad you like Jefferson; turns out he was a flaming redistributionist:

I am conscious that an equal division of property is impracticable, but the consequences of this enormous inequality producing so much misery to the bulk of mankind, legislators cannot invent too many devices for subdividing property, only taking care to let their subdivisions go hand in hand with the natural affections of the human mind. The descent of property of every kind therefore to all the children, or to all the brothers and sisters, or other relations in equal degree, is a politic measure and a practicable one. Another means of silently lessening the inequality of property is to exempt all from taxation below a certain point, and to tax the higher portions or property in geometrical progression as they rise.

Danube of Thought

"...exempt all from taxation below a certain point, and to tax the higher portions or property in geometrical progression as they rise."

Consider it done. And done especially by G.W. Bush.

Haley's Vomit

So are you guys on board with a geometric progression of tax rates?

Or are you gonna trash Jefferson?

Haley's Vomit

"The Remissness of our People in Paying Taxes is highly blameable; the Unwillingness to pay them is still more so. I see, in some Resolutions of Town Meetings, a Remonstrance against giving Congress a Power to take, as they call it, the People’s Money out of their Pockets, tho’ only to pay the Interest and Principal of Debts duly contracted. They seem to mistake the Point. Money, justly due from the People, is their Creditors’ Money, and no longer the Money of the People, who, if they withold it, should be compell’d to pay by some Law.

All Property, indeed, except the Savage’s temporary Cabin, his Bow, his Matchcoat, and other little Acquisitions, absolutely necessary for his Subsistence, seems to me to be the Creature of public Convention. Hence the Public has the Right of Regulating Descents, and all other Conveyances of Property, and even of limiting the Quantity and the Uses of it. All the Property that is necessary to a Man, for the Conservation of the Individual and the Propagation of the Species, is his natural Right, which none can justly deprive him of: But all Property superfluous to such purposes is the Property of the Publick, who, by their Laws, have created it, and who may therefore by other Laws dispose of it, whenever the Welfare of the Publick shall demand such Disposition.He that does not like civil Society on these Terms, let him retire and live among Savages. He can have no right to the benefits of Society, who will not pay his Club towards the Support of it."

-Ben Franklin

MarkO

There's no racism like good, old fashioned black racism. Have you felt it? Seen it in action? Lived in the South? Driven around Watts? I've seen white and black racists. So what? It will always be thus.

The exponential increase in charges of racism and the pandering of Obama's followers to the idea that racism runs only one way is more of a throwback to those foul times than any other thing.

Add to the black victimhood the wild and unserious charges of Al Sharpton aimed at chilling the speech of Rush based on the not racist "Driving Miss Nancy." Was the original movie racist. No. The taking of offense has become a protected civl right.

How soon will America trust another black politician? 100 years?

Obama is no Jackie Robinson. He's more Barry Bonds.


Danube of Thought

I am certainly on board with progressive income tax rates; I am not sure that "geometric progression" tells us all we need to know about what tax rates apply to what levels of income. And I am not gonna trash Jefferson for his 18th Century understanding of economics.

Are you gonna trash Jefferson for his 18th Century understanding of slave ownership, or are you on board with it?

bgates

"turns out he was a flaming redistributionist"

Turns out he was talking about pre-Revolutionary France.

jimmyk

Franklin, of course, was simply arguing for taxation of property in proportion to its value above a subsistence level, more akin to flat tax proposals of today. His point was that people who choose to live in a society don't have the right not to be taxed. He believed people who had more should pay more. He was obviously not arguing for confiscation of property above subsistence, or even for progressive taxation.

But then, he referred to the indigenous peoples of the Americas as "savages," so he can't be much of a role model, eh?

Haley's Vomit

The necessaries of life occasion the great expense of the poor. They find it difficult to get food, and the greater part of their little revenue is spent in getting it. The luxuries and vanities of life occasion the principal expense of the rich, and a magnificent house embellishes and sets off to the best advantage all the other luxuries and vanities which they possess. A tax upon house-rents, therefore, would in general fall heaviest upon the rich; and in this sort of inequality there would not, perhaps, be anything very unreasonable. It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion.

Maybe you prefer Adam Smith's understanding of economics?

MarkO

I give you the paragraphs preceded those quoted about "taxes" taken from an unpublished letter from Franklin to Robert Morris The Superintendent of Finance under the Articles of Confederation.

You will see that Franklin is complaining about not having enough money to pay his own debts and charges abroad. This is no objective position statement.

Herewith, the longish quote. Sorry.

I have been exceedingly hurt & afflicted by the difficulty some of your late Bills met with in Holland. As soon as I receiv’d the Letters from Messrs Willink & Co which I inclose, I sent for Mr Grand, who brought me a Sketch of his Account with you, by which it appear’d that the Demands upon us, existing & expected, would more than absorb the Funds in his Hands. We could not indulge the smallest Hope of obtaining farther Assistance here, the Public Finances being in a State of Embarrassment, private Persons full of Distrust occasioned by the late Stoppage of Payment at the Caisse d’Escompte, and Money in general extreamly scarce. But he agreed to do what I propos’d, lend his Credit in the Way of Drawing & Redrawing between Holland and Paris, to gain Time till you could furnish Funds to reimburse Messrs Willinck & Co. I believe he made this Proposition to them by the Return of the Express. I know not why it was not accepted. Mr Grand I suppose will himself give you an Account of all the Transaction, and of his Application to Messrs Couteulx, &c. therefore I need not add more upon this disagreable Subject.

I have found Difficultites in settling the Account of Salaries with the other ministers, that have made it impracticable for me to do it. I have therefore, after keeping the Bills that were to have been proportioned among us, long in my hands, given them up to Mr Grand, who finding the same Difficulties will I suppose return them to you. None have come to hand for the two or three last Quarters, and we are indebted to his Kindness for advancing us Money, or we must have run in debt for our Subsistance. He risques in doing this, since he has not for it your Orders.—

There arise frequently contingent Expenses for which no Provision has yet been made. In a former Letter to the Secretary for Foreign Affairs I gave a List of them, and desired to know the Pleasure of Congress concerning them. I have only had for Answer, that they were under Consideration, and that he believed House-Rent would not be allowed: but I am still in Uncertainty as to that and the Rest. I wish some Resolutions were taken on this Point of Contingencies, that I may know how to settle my Accounts with Mr Barclay. American Ministers in Europe are too remote from their Constituents, to consult them and take their Orders on every Occasion; as the Ministers here of European Courts can easily do. There seems therefore a Necessity of allowing more to their Discretion, and of giving them a Credit to a certain Amount, or some Banker who may answer their Orders, for which, however, they should be accountable. I mention this for the sake of other Ministers, (hoping & expecting soon to be dischard’d my self) and also for the Good of the Service.

Danube of Thought

I appreciate bgates's having provided the background and context of Jefferson's remarks about pre-revolutionary France. In the process, he has exposed HV as having been quite shamefully dishonest in his own presentation.

I note that HV has declined to respond to a straightforward question about Jefferson and slavery. I suppose he will do so when he summons up sufficient courage.

qrstuv

send better trolls

Jim Rhoads a/k/a vjnjagvet

Regurgitating out of context excerpts from historical heroes is in the best tradition of lefty trollery. But then, regurgitation is a synonym for Vomit.

MarkO

Doesn't anybody study history any more?

Threadkiller

Oh those violent Mississippi racists.

"Congressional usage of the word nigger


Main article: Peekskill Riots
Following the 1949 Peekskill Riots, which were violent attacks by a mob of white racist anti-communists after a concert where African American entertainer and political radical Paul Robeson sang, Rankin condemned Robeson.[17]
He was followed by Representative Jacob Javits who condemned the mob in Peekskill for violating constitutional guarantees of freedom of speech and free assembly.[18] Rankin replied angrily. "It was not surprising to hear the gentlemen from New York defend the Communist enclave." Rankin bellowed that he wanted it known that the American people are not in sympathy "with that Nigger Communist and that bunch of Reds who went up there."[18] On a point of order, Representative Vito Marcantonio protested to House Speaker Sam Rayburn that "the gentlemen from Mississippi used the word 'nigger.' I ask that the word be taken down and stricken from the RECORD inasmuch as there are two members in this house of Negro race." Rayburn claimed that Rankin had not said "nigger" but "Negro" but Rankin yelled over him saying "I said Niggra! Just as I have said since I have been able to talk and shall continue to say."[19] Speaker Rayburn defended Rankin, ruling that "the gentlemen from Mississippi is not subject to a point of order... referred to the Negro race and they should not be afraid of that designation."[19]

">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_E._Rankin"> John E. Rankin

"In 1920, he was elected to the House as a Democrat. He served sixteen consecutive terms (March 4, 1921 – January 3, 1953) as Mississippi's First District Representative."

anduril, he’s got something for you too.

"Rankin belittled both Jews and African Americans on the floor of the U.S. House of Representatives. After Rankin used the epithet nigger on the floor of the United States House of Representatives, Rep. Adam Clayton Powell Jr. called for his impeachment. Although freshmen Congressmen were expected not to speak during their first year in office, Powell rose after one of Rankin's outbursts to say that "the time has arrived to impeach Rankin, or at least expel him from the party."[1] William L. Strickland, professor of political science at University of Massachusetts Amherst[13][1] has written that "Rankin was an equal opportunity bigot since he also assailed columnist Walter Winchell as 'the little kike.'"[2] The moment was referenced in the 1947 Academy Award winning film, Gentleman's Agreement, which focuses on the topic of antisemitism."
jimmyk

If you exempt a certain amount from taxation, and then tax the amount above that at a flat rate, the wealthy will pay "more than in that proportion."

So both Franklin and Smith were flat-taxers. Thanks for the reminder.

And yes, I'll take Adam Smith's understanding of economics. But the whole thing, not cherry-picked quotes out of context.

Haley's Vomit

No, he wasn't just talking about France. The letter is to Madison, and it includes this:

Whenever there are in any country uncultivated lands and unemployed poor, it is clear that the laws of property have been so far extended as to violate natural right. The earth is given as a common stock for man to labor and live on. If for the encouragement of industry we allow it to be appropriated, we must take care that other employment be provided to those excluded from the appropriation. If we do not, the fundamental right to labor the earth returns to the unemployed. It is too soon yet in our country to say that every man who cannot find employment, but who can find uncultivated land, shall be at liberty to cultivate it, paying a moderate rent. But it is not too soon to provide by every possible means that as few as possible shall be without a little portion of land. The small landholders are the most precious part of a state.

Danube of Thought

"The necessaries of life occasion the great expense of the poor..." etc.

The quoted words are from Adam Smith himself, as HV well knew when he posted them. Smith wrote those words in support of the idea of progressive income taxation, which I wholeheartedly support (and I know of no one who does not--ask Haley Barbour about his views.)

Tell us your views on Jefferson and slavery, HV. In addition to being dishonest, you're beginning to appear cowardly.

MarkO

Idiot. It is not to Madison. It is years before the Constituion was ratified. It is a plea for personal monetary issues connected with serving in France. Pay attention. Either correct it, or leave.

Danube of Thought

Come come, HV: your views on Jefferson and slavery. You on board with them, or are you gonna trash him?

Haley's Vomit

Sorry, but Franklin claims that anything above subsistence is public property. I know it must hurt your delicate sensibilities, but he's pretty clear on this point.

All the Property that is necessary to a Man, for the Conservation of the Individual and the Propagation of the Species, is his natural Right, which none can justly deprive him of: But all Property superfluous to such purposes is the Property of the Publick, who, by their Laws, have created it, and who may therefore by other Laws dispose of it, whenever the Welfare of the Publick shall demand such Disposition.

Haley's Vomit

Idiot. It is not to Madison. It is years before the Constituion was ratified. It is a plea for personal monetary issues connected with serving in France. Pay attention. Either correct it, or leave.

Guess this makes you a fucking moron (LUN):

Letters: PROPERTY AND NATURAL RIGHT

To James Madison

Fontainebleau, Oct. 28, 1785

DEAR SIR, -- Seven o'clock, and retired to my fireside, I have determined to enter into conversation with you. This is a village of about 15,000 inhabitants when the court is not here, and 20,000 when they are, occupying a valley through which runs a brook and on each side of it a ridge of small mountains, most of which are naked rock. The King comes here, in the fall always, to hunt. His court attend him, as do also the foreign diplomatic corps; but as this is not indispensably required and my finances do not admit the expense of a continued residence here, I propose to come occasionally to attend the King's levees, returning again to Paris, distant forty miles. This being the first trip, I set out yesterday morning to take a view of the place. For this purpose I shaped my course towards the highest of the mountains in sight, to the top of which was about a league.

As soon as I had got clear of the town I fell in with a poor woman walking at the same rate with myself and going the same course. Wishing to know the condition of the laboring poor I entered into conversation with her, which I began by enquiries for the path which would lead me into the mountain: and thence proceeded to enquiries into her vocation, condition and circumstances. She told me she was a day laborer at 8 sous or 4d. sterling the day: that she had two children to maintain, and to pay a rent of 30 livres for her house (which would consume the hire of 75 days), that often she could no employment and of course was without bread. As we had walked together near a mile and she had so far served me as a guide, I gave her, on parting, 24 sous. She burst into tears of a gratitude which could perceive was unfeigned because she was unable to utter a word. She had probably never before received so great an aid. This little attendrissement, with the solitude of my walk, led me into a train of reflections on that unequal division of property which occasions the numberless instances of wretchedness which I had observed in this country and is to be observed all over Europe.

The property of this country is absolutely concentrated in a very few hands, having revenues of from half a million of guineas a year downwards. These employ the flower of the country as servants, some of them having as many as 200 domestics, not laboring. They employ also a great number of manufacturers and tradesmen, and lastly the class of laboring husbandmen. But after all there comes the most numerous of all classes, that is, the poor who cannot find work. I asked myself what could be the reason so many should be permitted to beg who are willing to work, in a country where there is a very considerable proportion of uncultivated lands? These lands are undisturbed only for the sake of game. It should seem then that it must be because of the enormous wealth of the proprietors which places them above attention to the increase of their revenues by permitting these lands to be labored.

I am conscious that an equal division of property is impracticable, but the consequences of this enormous inequality producing so much misery to the bulk of mankind, legislators cannot invent too many devices for subdividing property, only taking care to let their subdivisions go hand in hand with the natural affections of the human mind. The descent of property of every kind therefore to all the children, or to all the brothers and sisters, or other relations in equal degree, is a politic measure and a practicable one. Another means of silently lessening the inequality of property is to exempt all from taxation below a certain point, and to tax the higher portions or property in geometrical progression as they rise.

Whenever there are in any country uncultivated lands and unemployed poor, it is clear that the laws of property have been so far extended as to violate natural right. The earth is given as a common stock for man to labor and live on. If for the encouragement of industry we allow it to be appropriated, we must take care that other employment be provided to those excluded from the appropriation. If we do not, the fundamental right to labor the earth returns to the unemployed. It is too soon yet in our country to say that every man who cannot find employment, but who can find uncultivated land, shall be at liberty to cultivate it, paying a moderate rent. But it is not too soon to provide by every possible means that as few as possible shall be without a little portion of land. The small landholders are the most precious part of a state.

The next object which struck my attention in my walk was the deer with which the wood abounded. They were of the kind called "Cerfs," and not exactly of the same species with ours. They are blackish indeed under the belly, and not white as ours, and they are more of the chestnut red; but these are such small differences as would be sure to happen in two races from the same stock breeding separately a number of ages. Their hares are totally different from the animals we call by that name; but their rabbit is almost exactly like him. The only difference is in their manners; the land on which I walked for some time being absolutely reduced to a honeycomb by their burrowing. I think there is no instance of ours burrowing. After descending the hill again I saw a man cutting fern. I went to him under pretence of asking the shortest road to town, and afterwards asked for what use he was cutting fern. He told me that this part of the country furnished a great deal of fruit to Paris. That when packed in straw it acquired an ill taste, but that dry fern preserved it perfectly without communicating any taste at all.

I treasured this observation for the preservation of my apples on my return to my own country. They have no apples here to compare with our Redtown pippin. They have nothing which deserves the name of a peach; there being not sun enough to ripen the plum-peach and the best of their soft peaches being like our autumn peaches. Their cherries and strawberries are fair, but think lack flavor. Their plums I think are better; so also their gooseberries, and the pears infinitely beyond anything we possess. They have nothing better than our sweet-water; but they have a succession of as good from early in the summer till frost. I am to-morrow to get [to] M. Malsherbes (an uncle of the Chevalier Luzerne's) about seven leagues from hence, who is the most curious man in France as to his trees. He is making for me a collection of the vines from which the Burgundy, Champagne, Bordeaux, Frontignac, and other of the most valuable wines of this country are made. Another gentleman is collecting for me the best eating grapes, including what we call the raisin. propose also to endeavor to colonize their hare, rabbit, red and grey partridge, pheasants of different kinds, and some other birds. But I find that I am wandering beyond the limits of my walk and will therefore bid you adieu.

Yours affectionately.

Thos. Jefferson

Danube of Thought

"In these sentiments, Sir, I agree to this Constitution with all its faults, if they are such; because I think a general Government necessary for us, and there is no form of Government but what may be a blessing to the people if well administered, and believe farther that this is likely to be well administered for a course of years, and can only end in Despotism, as other forms have done before it, when the people shall become so corrupted as to need despotic Government, being incapable of any other."

The Constitution to which Franklin thus agreed contained no provision for any federal income tax at all.

You on board with no income tax, HV, or are you gonna trash the Founders?

And when can we expect to hear from you on Jefferson and slavery?

jimmyk

I don't think Smith was arguing for progressive taxation in the modern sense. Elsewhere in the Wealth of Nations he writes:

The subjects of every state ought to contribute towards the support of the government, as nearly as possible, in proportion to their respective abilities; that is, in proportion to the revenue which they respectively enjoy under the protection of the state. The expense of government to the individuals of a great nation is like the expense of management to the joint tenants of a great estate, who are all obliged to contribute in proportion to their respective interests in the estate. In the observation or neglect of this maxim consists what is called the equality or inequality of taxation.

Again, the only sensible way to reconcile this is the same as with Franklin: Exempt a subsistence amount from taxation and tax the rest in proportion.

MarkO

Trolls. They can't send a smart one or one who can stay on task. Anyway, those who care about the accuracy of the Franklin quote and its context now have it. As to the others thrown out as excised from Progressive talking points, I don't have the time nor inclination. I'll just say, once you find a witness lying, you can assume the remainder of his words are lies as well.

Duke won tonight, tying Coach K with crazy Dean Smith.

Danube of Thought

HV, why do you quote favorably the words of a man who owned slaves?

jimmyk

Anyone who knows anything about Franklin--what he believed, the policies he advocated--would know that he did not believe that all property above subsistence literally belonged to the public. He was simply arguing that it was subject to taxation by the public. No matter how many times you repeat the quote, the true meaning won't change. I'm done with this idiot troll.

Danube of Thought

"I thought you guys were big on following the wishes of the founders?"

We are. Those collective wishes were expressed in the flawed Constitution upon which they were able to forge agreement. Among other things, it contained no provision for income taxation, progressive or otherwise, and it did not prohibit slavery.

We accept that document for what it was, and for what it is after two centuries of amendment and judicial interpretation.

And we consider it childish to present as lasting truths statements of some of the participants which did not survive their deliberations.

pashley1411

If you guys take libs claims of "racism", "sexism", whatever, seriously, and try to cite chapter and verse, you are playing their game.

They don't care about your attitudes, real people, anything. Its all about status and one-upmanship. They are morally superior to you, so any charges stick, whether its racism, insensity, the one-eye curse of Chithulu, whatever, tag, your it.

The charges aren't answerable, except in the "my dad is bigger" sense, so why answer? The charges aren't rational or made of historical events, so why engage in rational discourse? They believe you are like them, interested in status and one-upmanshp; you believe they are like you, putting a rational and historical framework on human conduct. Who is sillier?

To engage with liberals is to enter into their world; how equal are society's assets distributed, how much is society divided by racial preconceptions, what are the attributes of men, and women, that we can discard, which child that are conceived can we dispose of. They think they can answer these questions in a way superior to nature and society because of their status. You can't even say "boo" to questions like these without entering into a house of mirrors of preconceived notions of human nature, the order of the world, and God.

Ignatz

--you believe they are like you--

Assumes a fact not only not in evidence but not even in existence.

Danube of Thought

HV, I think it is clear to any reader of this thread who it is, as between you and your interlocutors, who has the bitter and malignant heart. That's your problem, not mine.

But I have repeatedly asked you a simple question about Jefferson and slavery, and you have assiduously avoided answering it. Every reader here knows that.

And it tells us all we need to know.

daveinboca

I posted this via Disqus on MY's comment-discussion page using TM:
"Tom Maguire bitch-slaps MY for the black racism he learned at Hahvahd, and wonders what other mythologies are clanking around in that closed Hahvahd-trained "mind," actually a programmed lib-bot receptacle to yammer absurdities when MY hears his Hahvahd truisms contradicted. Maguire actually has an inquiring mind, and quotes David Halberstam, who was actually there, at great length on how the Citizen's Councils were more of a social network than any anti-black organization. In fact, MY might be p-o'ed because the Councils' main targets, according to Halberstam [who was there, remember?] were Catholics and Jews, both white if my eyes serve me well, and MY shares at least by name and looks in both of those recessive [in the Councils' eyes] civic, religious and perhaps genetic traits. MY could have gone all Godwin on us, but didn't, showing restraint if that's what you call accusations of racism....!"

the narrative

Who are you to question Matt's expertise? Don't you realize he is an English major?

daveinboca

Sorry, I should have realized that MattY had an immense arsenal of English words to assert and defend his sorry excuse of an attack on Haley. Indeed, I was deconstructing his pieces when I had the urge, spurred perhaps by the ongoing lunar eclipse, to check out Tom's non-Hahvahd musings and now I realize that I am not worthy, not worthy, not worthy to pluck the hem of MattY's robe---the beige one, not the white one...!

Pops

Perhaps Matt should do a little history study of the Democrat Party and the KKK, etc.

Pagar

"Doesn't anybody study history any more?"

American public school students study what William Ayers and his type want them to Article.

"Among the left wing radicals who run our schools, Ayers is a demigod."
"As recently as 2008, Ayers was elected VP for curriculum of the American Education Research Association; the largest national organization of education professors and researchers. "

bandit

Go to the comments - nothing displays your tolerance like saying everyone in the state is a redneck racist.

Janet

"As recently as 2008, Ayers was elected VP for curriculum of the American Education Research Association; the largest national organization of education professors and researchers. "

What gets me Pagar, is that the MFM never makes a big deal out of curriculum moving left, left, left. No front page articles...it just quietly happens & most Americans don't even know about it. How many parents read their kids textbooks?
But any push back on the PC curriculum gets front page outraged articles. Just recently there were articles on the Texas curriculum & I think the Arizona curriculum....with the tenor being "evil right-wing" conservatives forcing their world view on kids.

Donald

speaking of racism and bigotry and such...

They still got slaves in Africa and Asia right? Am I missing something?

Sounds like a civil rights cause to me. Ain't heard nothing out of the pros (Civil rights professionals) on that one.

narciso

Yglesias is from Harvard, I evinced no such understanding when I debated him, on the Atlantic comment section, about 2-1/2 years ago.

Jack is Back!

Mak,ala,aka JOMers:

Such a depressing thread of common eastern establishment elitist idiocy that we need a little levity.

Marrie Spaeth chooses Richard Branson's response to the "most creative airline food criticism" as a correct corporate action. Please do not read this letter or look at the pictures on a full stomach or with a cup of coffee in your hands. LUN

BTW, Merrie chooses the following as Bimbo of the Year 2010:

“It may be stupid, it may be negligent, but it’s not corrupt,” said longtime Rep. Charles Rangel explaining one of his 13 ethics violations where he sent hundreds of solicitations for contributions on Congressional stationary. (Rangel’s explanation, that he just “grabbed the wrong stationary,” will warm the hearts of disorganized fundraisers everywhere. The amazing thing to us is that he appears to truly believe this is all OK, and after he was censured by a 333 to 79 vote, he said, “I truly feel good.”)

narciso

That letter was worthy of a Monty Python sketch, Jib, I tried to find examples of Yglesias pedantic exercise, but not only
are the blog comments closed, but they are unavailable, like the Ark of the Covenant

Janet

Rangel’s explanation, that he just “grabbed the wrong stationary,”

Ahhh, the ol' liberal untidy defense! It usually works like a charm. If telling a lie doesn't work, then the lefty laughs...shakes his head....& admits to the world that he is untidy. Just a well meaning rumpled mess with a heart of gold.....

Marty

Yglesias is just a Harvard-credentialed, basically ill-educated person who has repeatedly shown he has little or nothing to offer. Unfortunately, he has a big enough platform that we all have to waste our time on debunking him, over and over.

bunkerbuster

Yglesias wasn't suggesting the Citizen's Councils were violent. The fact that Tom leaps to such a distant, self-damning conclusion, and all the wingnuts follow him, shows just how insecure identity conservatives are about their emotional issues with ethnic minorities.
Tom is unwittingly confessing that he can't even imagine that campaigning on the "racial" inferiority of Afro-Americans and the need to enforce that politically isn't reason enough for Afro-Americans to respond to provocations with violence.
Yglesias point isn't that the Citizens' Councils were directly involved in harrassing or murdering Afro-Americans. It's that the councils were in the business of creating an atmosphere in which violent racism could be and would be tolerated politically and by law enforcement.
No surprise at all that the councils would find defenders here, nor that the usual excuses would be trotted out and, indeed, even the hapless rhetorical surrender that is the "preening" defense.
Tom does a great service by letting the bigots out themselves here and the added bonus is that it's so entertaining to see all the self-pity and whining about false accusations of racism by people who are so unaware of how small-minded they've become they can't even understand why their comments welcome obvious bigotry.
By next Tuesday, DoT will again be fantasizing about murdering Muslims and his fellow wingnuts will be yammering on about how difficult it would be for them to shower near a gay man.
When anybody suggests identity conservatives aren't small-minded bigots, all I have to do is send them here to close my case...

narciso

Meanwhile just a touch of schadenfreude, in the LUN

Jack is Back!

Ever wonder what it would look like this time of the year in B.C. zero hour if they had the internet, facebook, twitter, google and Amazon? LUN

Melinda Romanoff

JiB-

A restaurant review after my own heart.

Melinda Romanoff

The amount of Tylenol required for that level of mental contortion has got to broach toxicity concerns.

bunkerbuster

Actually, Haley's comment was much pithier and is exactly what I was trying to say:
``Inexplicably, apologias for 200 horrific years of slavery and racism always seems to be the more attractive approach to conservatives.''

Though I would note that the slavery was going on for in what became America for well more than 300 years -- far, far longer than Afro-Americans have been free here.

bunkerbuster

and indeed, the sloppy desultory sentence I wrote should say: Tom is unwittingly confessing that he can't even imagine that campaigning on the "racial" inferiority of Afro-Americans and the need to enforce that politically IS reason enough for Afro-Americans to respond to provocations with violence.

boris

... campaigning on the "moral" inferiority of conservatives and the need to enforce that politically IS reason enough to respond to provocations with violence ridicule

FIFY

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