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December 23, 2010


Jack is Back!

But, but, Tom, that was his strategy all along, don't ya know:)

OT: Now here is a real schocker. Who would have ever guessed that this would turn out the way it did.LUN

/snark sarc

Jack is Back!

Forgot to add: Can we now call him Mr. Beau Shambles?

Jack is Back!

Hey, hat trick - 3 in a row.

I am in a festive mood this morning. Just read Lileks about Christmas music and he asked for everyone's favorite and which one the hated the most. Well, I wasn't about to pay $3.47 just to share that with 38 other people. I can do it for free here and share it with 3,800 people.

My favorite of all time is at the LUN.

The worst is Santa Baby - no LUN because it is bad it doesn't deserve it.

What's in your CD player this season?



I have a mission for you.

Last nights read was finishing up the history of the guys trying to figure out the age of the earth and the Universe.
In a chapter towards the end it mentioned how Russian Born American Physicist George Gamow in the early 1950's hit on an interesting idea suggesting possible proof for a Big Bang. He had a study done measuring the percentile of elements in existence, and because of the massive overabundance of Helium, Hydrogen and elements numbers 3 and 4, he figured that in some early cosmic soup time, those lighter elements were able to grab electrons and and coalesce into elemental atoms, thereby accounting for their overabundance over all the other elements. Anyhow, it seems that to try to prove this he organizes a gang of 2 other guys, calls themselves "The 3 Musketeers", and for about 6-8 years, meets after work in DC at some bar called Little Vienna, where the serious work of unraveling the Universe was undertaken. I need you to see if this bar, Little Vienna, still exists, if its in a decent part of town, and if it's worth a visit.

I am a sucker for bars that scientists have hung out at. The Eagle Pub in Cambridge I've mentioned many times before, as it's where Watson and Crick did the Double Helix on the Bar napkin, and it's also where Rutherford ate lunch while discovering the Electron in the Cavendish Laboratory in 1903, only some 65 feet away. (Newton's digs was about 200 yards away, but we've no hard and fast confirmation of him swilling at the joint:(

I also really enjoyed The Yankee Doodle Tap Room in Princeton, as they have that table where Einstein carved his name in the tabletop with a knife, and the Yuengling on tap was drinkable.

Plus I know where our scientist, DrJ, drinks beers in Berkeley. So if you wouldn't mind checking out that speakeasy I'd be grateful.

And BTW, if anyone knows which topless joints Richard Feynmann hung out at near Alamagrodo, I'd love to know. I've only done the OWL Cafe in Albuquerque and the supposed favorite burger of the Manhattan Project scientists was only so so. So open to suggestions.

P.S., Melinda,

In Chicago, where did Wolfgang Pauli get snockered?



Any Christmas tune sung by Andy Williams is the worst ever. Period.

Whichever one is on the radio at any given moment is the most awful song ever recorded, until they play the next Andy Wiliam's tune, and then that one takes precedent as the worst ever. He makes my teeth hurt.

Terry Gain

Can we now call him Mr. Beau Shambles?

Very good but how about Mr. O'Beau Shambles. And daddy I agree with you about Williams. He has great taste in music but a grating voice.

Jack is Back!


I lived on an off in DC or environs from 1969 to 1988 and have a faint recollection of a bar/restuarant called Little Vienna but can't give you a location. However, there is a Cafe Mozart at 13th and H St. Close enough? BTW, you know Rutherford was a Kiwi?


The Huron Carol
Jean de Brebeuf ca 1615

sung by Tom Rivers


Cecil Turner

Shouldn't that be "strategery"?

And personally I'm more worried about the inability to catch new terrorists (or even any idea what they're up to). The real eye-opener this week was the DNI not knowing about terror arrests in London. I saw the initial clip and didn't think much of it. In fact, I was in near complete sympathy with Clapper, the question being typical MSM stupidity: "First of all, London. How serious is it? Any implication that it was coming here?" (For a second I thought I was in a Robert Ludlum novel. "Don't you understand? Buenos Aires! The Nachrichtendienst knows about Buenos Aires! The gyroscopes!") I suspected he was thinking "Whaddya talkin' about lady, subway bombings, policy issues, MI-5 techniques, or the latest arrests?"

But then they admitted he actually hadn't heard about the terror arrests:

After initially suggesting that Director of National Intelligence James Clapper’s inability to answer a question from ABC News anchor Diane Sawyer about the arrests of 12 suspected terrorists in London was because her question was too “ambiguous,” the Obama administration acknowledged Wednesday morning that retired Air Force Lt. Gen. Clapper had not been briefed about the arrests at the time of the interview.
Er, not so good.


Awwww, why so hard on Andy Williams? As a kid, I thought he was soooooo handsome. :)


Chubby, that song is lovely...I'd never heard it before.


Jack Is Back,

My favorite Christmas recording of all time is "The Twelfth Night Song," a Russian carol from Leonard Bernstein's classic The Joy of Christmas with the Mormon Tabernacle Choir and the New York Philharmonic. It's vintage Bernstein - a stirring, exotic-sounding tune about the Magi arriving in Bethlehem, set in Russian snow and ice. To my knowledge this is the only recording of it available (and I've searched). One note: the Amazon preview clip of the song isn't very representative, but it's inexpensive and worth seeking out - the whole album is excellent.

But right behind that is the King's College Choir singing "Once in Royal David's City" to open the Nine Lessons and Carols service at King's College Chapel each Christmas Eve. You probably know the setup - the boy who sings the opening solo does not know he will be singing until the conductor points to him just before the service begins. So the song usually starts on a soft, tremulous note, which is in keeping with the sweet lyrics about Jesus and childhood. Here is the video from 2008.

Worst - I'll have to think about it - I'd hate to put it in the same comment as the above two. ;)

Jane (sit on the couch or save your country)

Speaking of Andy Williams, does anyone else remember the Claudine Longet Invitational?

Rob Crawford

Any Christmas tune sung by Andy Williams is the worst ever.


He's not my favorite, but certainly not the worst. One of the Christmas albums we had when I was a kid was Andy Williams, and for me it at least has sentimental value.

But then, my Christmas music play list includes the Bing Crosby/David Bowie "Peace on Earth" duet. (And the Donald Duck/Goofy cover of "Dueling Banjos", but that's just because it makes me laugh.)


From WaPo, this is how I took Totenberg's comment, too:

Then we reached Totenberg herself during her "Christmas vacation" (her term) in Jamaica. Turns out her critics got it completely wrong: She was, she says, defending Christmas. The DOJ celebration was officially dubbed a "holiday" party, and she was gently mocking that generic designation. "I think that's kind of silly because it's obviously a Christmas party," she told us. "I was tweaking the Department of Justice. It was a touch of irony at the expense of the Justice department, not at the expense of Christmas."

As for the bloggers who were so quick to judge -- without bothering to ask her what she meant: "Jeesh, these folks need a life -- and perhaps a touch of the Christmas spirit, as well."


Rob: I like the Crosby/Bowie duet, as well. My most favorite during the holidays is "Oh Holy Night."


"bloggers who were so quick to judge"

So Nina's irony backfired eh ... sure. Well there is only one way to resolve the ambiguity if the original appelation of the party is left out of the context.

Nina can cry in her beer and MW can 'drool in his.


NRO offers this:

Away in a Manger
At Christmas, we should remember Christians who are persecuted for their faith.

And while I agree with the sentiment, it's odd that the author

1. only mentions Iraq very briefly,

2. in doing so pins blame only on al qaeda, when shiites, too, engage in ethnic cleansing of christians,

3. fails to mention egypt at all, where copts have been subjected to horrific persecution for decades.


My granddaughters and I like to rock out to Christmas music early in December when they help me decorate the house.

Our favorite - when we stop decorating and just dance - is Ringo Starr's Little Drummer Boy. Just love the bagpipe ending, but I am a sucker for bagpipes! lol.

Jane (sit on the couch or save your country)

I heard Juan Williams didn't mean it either.


Jane, you goof--Nina meant every word she said. Anyone who has any experience with the Federal Gov knows that in this day and age they don't have "Christmas" parties. So, when Nina mentioned that DoJ DID have a "Christmas" party--the reality of what was going on--she mockingly asked pardon for using the (quite accurate) expression that DoJ forbade its employees to use.

It's the only explanation that makes any sense of her remarks in context.

Captain Hate

So anduril understands Nina Twatenberg; there's something to brag about.


Long article by John Mearshimer in the National Interest, well worth your perusal:

Imperial by Design

IN THE first years after the Cold War ended, many Americans had a profound sense of optimism about the future of international politics. President Bill Clinton captured that mood when he told the UN General Assembly in September 1993:

It is clear that we live at a turning point in human history. Immense and promising changes seem to wash over us every day. The Cold War is over. The world is no longer divided into two armed and angry camps. Dozens of new democracies have been born. It is a moment of miracles.

The basis of all this good feeling was laid out at the time in two famous articles by prominent neoconservatives. In 1989, Francis Fukuyama argued in “The End of History?” that Western liberal democracy had won a decisive victory over communism and fascism and should be seen as the “final form of human government.”1 One consequence of this “ideological evolution,” he argued, was that large-scale conflict between the great powers was “passing from the scene,” although “the vast bulk of the Third World remains very much mired in history, and will be a terrain of conflict for many years to come.” Nevertheless, liberal democracy and peace would eventually come to the Third World as well, because the sands of time were pushing inexorably in that direction.

One year later, Charles Krauthammer emphasized in “The Unipolar Moment” that the United States had emerged from the Cold War as by far the most powerful country on the planet.2 He urged American leaders not to be reticent about using that power “to lead a unipolar world, unashamedly laying down the rules of world order and being prepared to enforce them.” Krauthammer’s advice fit neatly with Fukuyama’s vision of the future: the United States should take the lead in bringing democracy to less developed countries the world over. After all, that shouldn’t be an especially difficult task given that America had awesome power and the cunning of history on its side.

U.S. grand strategy has followed this basic prescription for the past twenty years, mainly because most policy makers inside the Beltway have agreed with the thrust of Fukuyama’s and Krauthammer’s early analyses.

The results, however, have been disastrous. The United States has been at war for a startling two out of every three years since 1989, and there is no end in sight. As anyone with a rudimentary knowledge of world events knows, countries that continuously fight wars invariably build powerful national-security bureaucracies that undermine civil liberties and make it difficult to hold leaders accountable for their behavior; and they invariably end up adopting ruthless policies normally associated with brutal dictators. The Founding Fathers understood this problem, as is clear from James Madison’s observation that “no nation can preserve its freedom in the midst of continual warfare.” Washington’s pursuit of policies like assassination, rendition and torture over the past decade, not to mention the weakening of the rule of law at home, shows that their fears were justified.

To make matters worse, the United States is now engaged in protracted wars in Afghanistan and Iraq that have so far cost well over a trillion dollars and resulted in around forty-seven thousand American casualties. The pain and suffering inflicted on Iraq has been enormous. Since the war began in March 2003, more than one hundred thousand Iraqi civilians have been killed, roughly 2 million Iraqis have left the country and 1.7 million more have been internally displaced. Moreover, the American military is not going to win either one of these conflicts, despite all the phony talk about how the “surge” has worked in Iraq and how a similar strategy can produce another miracle in Afghanistan. We may well be stuck in both quagmires for years to come, in fruitless pursuit of victory.

The United States has also been unable to solve three other major foreign-policy problems. Washington has worked overtime—with no success—to shut down Iran’s uranium-enrichment capability for fear that it might lead to Tehran acquiring nuclear weapons. And the United States, unable to prevent North Korea from acquiring nuclear weapons in the first place, now seems incapable of compelling Pyongyang to give them up. Finally, every post–Cold War administration has tried and failed to settle the Israeli-Palestinian conflict; all indicators are that this problem will deteriorate further as the West Bank and Gaza are incorporated into a Greater Israel.

The unpleasant truth is that the United States is in a world of trouble today on the foreign-policy front, and this state of affairs is only likely to get worse in the next few years, as Afghanistan and Iraq unravel and the blame game escalates to poisonous levels. Thus, it is hardly surprising that a recent Chicago Council on Global Affairs survey found that “looking forward 50 years, only 33 percent of Americans think the United States will continue to be the world’s leading power.” Clearly, the heady days of the early 1990s have given way to a pronounced pessimism.

This regrettable situation raises the obvious questions of what went wrong? And can America right its course?



"It's the only explanation that makes any sense of her remarks in context"

Wrong. In context there are two ways to resolve the ambiguity. Without knowing the claimed "everybody knows" backdrop there is only the supposedly wrong one. She could have phrased it "what used to be called a Christmas Party" for better clarity.


I highly recommend the Mearshimer article, which is a lengthy overview of US foreign policy since the end of the Cold War.


">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bv2UieD7B0c"> Wreck The Halls With Boughs Of Holly

Moral Terpitude


They don't care about unfunded war costs,
only poorly funded SS and Medicare.

It's going to be quite a spectacle in 2011
when the Newbies find out about Governance,

That billion ton flywheel we call the Economy
is slowly building momentum, and may bolster
Obama's grip on principles he says he firmly
grasps, despite formerly limp=wristed performance.

hit and run

Had my fun with Gitmo http://thevimh.blogspot.com/2010/12/why-guantanamo-is-still-open.html>yesterday.

Greetings from Texas. The stars last night really were big and bright.

Captain Hate

The trolls must be getting internet privileges in the halfway houses for Christmas.


Anyone heard of Francis Fukuyama lately?

Didn't think so.

Cecil Turner

Oh, that's nice, I needed a dose of enemy propaganda. Now I can skip Pravda.


re "Santa Baby" ... the double entendres are definitely not for children's ears.

Danube of Thought

I see we have a tapeworm on steroids this morning.


Anyone heard of Charles Krauthammer lately?

Yeah, thought so.


protracted: wow, big stupid words make me all tingly.


Another really nice Christmas song is "Breath of Heaven/Mary's Song" by Amy Grant.
I love the lines-
Help me be strong.
Help me be.
Help me.


had Nina said "I was at the holiday- I mean the Christmas party" then her explanation would hold water ...

otherwise the original assumtions still are valid ...

and what is a journalist doing at that party ?

Uncle BigBad


A gentleman is a man who can play bagpipes--but doesn't.


Leaving Gitmo open is ok, because Obama's tackling the other big national security threats, childhood obesity and DADT.


My all time favorite is "Go Tell It on the Mountain" by my daughter's 1st grade class about ten years ago.


Dr. K has done himself some harm with his nonsensical column on the tax deal. Smart guy but economics is not his strong suit and anything to do with Obama he shows a flawed judement of the mans motives.


Hear, hear Jeff.

Just remember that Dr K started out life as a D.

Not that there's anything wrong with that:)


This is an AP photo from yesterday. President Obama doesn't look good at all.


That Politico article is silly. Blames the Republicans for fear mongering and blocking the closing of Gitmo, and blames the Dems for not daring to push back.

I think it's much more the case that the Democrats were fine with Gitmo in reality, but needed a bludgeon to use against Bush. The existence of/lack of concern regarding Bagram is good evidence of that.
Not to mention the way Pelosi was totally outed as fine with water boarding, etc.


Janet, that was so beautiful.


loved your conclusion, hit!


cc-My most favorite during the holidays is "Oh Holy Night."
I play Johnny Mathis' version repeatedly, my fave too.
Was the Claudine Longet Invitational all the guys she had over while poor little Andy was out working? Ever notice how his head is way too big for his body and sits crooked on his shoulders? Guy's got a heckuva voice, though.

Cecil Turner

If you accept the war on terror is a war, something like Gitmo is an obvious requirement. If you want to make it a law enforcement exercise, a detention camp makes no sense. If you support "indefinite detention" (for the duration), you've tacitly admitted it's a war.


“Moral Terpitude”? Was “Johnny Douchenozzle” already taken?

">http://www.nypost.com/p/news/opinion/opedcolumnists/liberal_myths_vs_reality_NhyLcYahQwWrDcRihW1mKL/0"> Liberal Myths vs. Reality

Myth: The deficit is due to military spending. Fact: If federal military spending had been eliminated in its entirety in 2009, the deficit would still have been $776 billion, a historical high. Defense spending is less than one fifth of the federal budget and less than 5% of GDP. When the economy was doing quite well in the 1960s, defense spending was twice as high in those terms. In fact, President Bush presided over smaller defense budgets (as a fraction of GDP) than all presidents from 1941 through 1993.

There is more at the link. No need to fill the thread with a giant cut and paste.

Cecil Turner

Here's a picture:
(sometimes that helps)


TK-No need to fill the thread with a giant cut and paste. No argument here, but I doubt your subtlety will find its target.

Thomas Collins

In fairness to the top 20th century End of History individual, Alexandre Kojeve, he didn't assert that wars would end in the 20th century, but that all the important questions in history had been resolved. See LUN for the leading book on 20th century End of History doctrine (lectures by Kojeve on Hegel's Phenomenology of Spirit).

I think Fukuyama engaged in a little irrational exuberance in his arguments that liberal democracy would in effect be the dominant form of polity at the End of History. Kojeve's vision is in my view ghastly, namely, that each individual in substance dervies his or her identity entirely from the State at the End of History. Ghastly though it may be, Kojeve, not Fukuyama, is the one to take seriously if one wants to confront End of History doctrine (at least from the point of view of State as All).

Czar of Control

"Even if you eliminated the war on drugs we're still hip deep in nanny statisms "

Let me understand your argument;

We live in a nannystate of such proportion, that it is meaningless to remove one of their tools of control.

Is that your position?

Melinda Romanoff


You're thinking of Claudine's little incident of killing Spider Sabich in '76. Pity, he was a really nice guy.

And, for Porch, my favorite Christmas song, after anything by Joe Williams, is Santa Loves To Boogie by Asleep At The Wheel, the album also features the classic "I Hate Christmas", for all the Scrooges out there.


(( Was “Johnny Douchenozzle” already taken?))


(the correct spelling of "turpitude" must have been taken as well)


Melinda- your Mr Stokley post on the last thread cracked me up.


Oh you mean this Mearsheimer?

Your mind can not move for an picometer beyond the ambit of Jew Hatred, can it?

Pretty bogus stuff all round, particularly the notion that American policy or role changed all that much in the last 20 years for the prior 40 years.

This "framing" of America and an "Empire", and, of course, framing is all it is, has been an major, ongoing and coordinate propaganda campaign by the intellectual Left even since the Berlin Wall fell, and it is cogent with the sort of Soviet nonsense we heard in the prior, Cold War era. To get away with it, they (and you) have had to twist and distort the definitions of "Empire" and "Imperialism" such that reasonable discussion becomes impossible--quickly we head in to a veritable field of straw men. This is most clearly done on purpose and shows deep intellectual dishonesty. When we hear the phrase "American Empire", we can safely assume that what is to follow is the usual Marxist cant and propaganda. Expect for a brief and somewhat pathetic sally into European style imperialism in the late 19th and very early 20th century. America is not, nor have ever been an imperial power.

All things considered, it is a comic proposition.

She has been a peace keeper of the Post War settlement. This is altogether a different thing.

You need not worry much about it in any event for between the platform scale downs, the repeal of DADT and START (and we can be assured that more degradation of our powers are in the works) we will no longer be the power we once were.

Then you will see "Imperialism", but it will not be from the USA.

Melinda Romanoff

His command of Robert's Rules of Order remains unachievable in most debate circles. Also, his biting sarcasm, when delivered at speed in the dark, is equally surprising.

Never underestimate Mr. Stokely's hidden attributes.


the double entendres are definitely not for children's ears

I thought that was the point of double entendres - you get an entendre for each age group.

I always thought "I Saw Mommy Kissing Santa Claus" was a little creepy. And the local 24/7 Christmas radio station is putting too much Mariah Carey and George Michaels in the rotation for my tastes. But other than that, I like all Christmas music, and I appreciate learning some new numbers on this thread.


((I thought that was the point of double entendres - you get an entendre for each age group.))

that is true but I find it kind of sad that kids can be innocently listening to soft porn and not not even know it

Thomas Collins
"this blog develops the idea that a theory of man in history can be worked out around the theme that man's self expression in culture and society is motivated by the desire to find meaning in man's existence. i proceed by summarizing seminal works that provide insights into the dynamics of this process, with the view that the culmination of this exploration was reached with god's self revelation in jesus. i'll hopefully also explore the developments that followed this event."

The above quote is from the blog regularly LUNed by anduril. As can be seen from the quote, it presents a different view of the dynamics of man's self expression in history than the one presented by Kojeve. Whether or not one agrees with the views expressed in the blog, it presents a useful counterpoint to the ghastly leftist vision of Kojeve (it must be said that Kojeve's view, although ghastly, is, unlike most leftist twaddle, seriously thought out).

Tweedledum Bush hides under bed as car crashes into yard

I love the smell of desperation.

"smells like victory"


Never heard of that boite , Daddy, but I'll look it up for you.

Jennifer rubin, like MayBee and I, think Omnibus and Dream killing and the extension of the Tax cuts were far more significant achievements than START and DADT.

"Would Republicans have traded wins on DADT and START for their wins on the DREAM act, the tax deal and the omnibus spending bill? Not in a million years. . . . Obama may yet stage a comeback. But to do that, he’ll have to do what the left loathes — cut domestic programs, rework entitlement programs, stand up to foreign adversaries (Obama’s legacy is irretrievably ruined if Iran gets the bomb on his watch), cut back on growth-restricting regulations and keep tax rates low. And so long as unemployment remains at historic highs, Obama’s chances of re-election remain poor.”

Fear-O's fiddle as Rome Burns

"And so long as unemployment remains at historic highs,"

Tea-Bag#1 wish on list for 2010.

Terry Gain

Dr. K has done himself some harm with his nonsensical column on the tax deal. Smart guy but economics is not his strong suit and anything to do with Obama he shows a flawed judement of the mans motives.
Posted by: Jeff | December 23, 2010 at 11:35 AM

I agree completely. Sometimes the smartest guy tries to prove how much smarter he is than everybody else and ends up proving that maybe he's not quite as smart as we, and he, thinks he is.

The extension of the tax cuts was not a stimulus. It was the extension of the status quo. If CK keeps this up I'm going to start calling him Krughammer.

Captain Hate

We live in a nannystate of such proportion, that it is meaningless to remove one of their tools of control.

Is that your position?



((Tea-Bag#1 wish on list for 2010))

I guess that means that during Bush's tenure lefties really did want higher casualty counts in Iraq and Afghanistan

Czar of Control

Is that your position?


Please elaborate. as the thread on pot seems abandoned due to bankrupt argument.


((Please elaborate. as the thread on pot seems abandoned due to bankrupt argument.))

Tell us again us how are testing for pot and alcohol use are identical.

The Eagle Pub in Cambridge I've mentioned many times before, as it's where Watson and Crick did the Double Helix on the Bar napkin
This is sort of off-topic of daddy's off-topic -- did you know that James Watson got a PhD in biochemistry from Indiana University without passing graduate chemistry? His first week of graduate school he blew up the chem lab, and they waived the requirement.

As for where Pauli got drunk, it would have been either the Quad Club or Jimmy's. My favorite Pauli quote, when someone asked him an opinion about some talk they had just been to, a withering: "It's not even wrong."


the ambit of Jew Hatred

The Israel Lobby and US Foreign Policy

John J. Mearsheimer
Department of Political Science
University of Chicago

Stephen M. Walt
John F. Kennedy School of Government
Harvard University

London Review of Books Vol. 28, No. 6 (March 23, 2006), available online at www.lrb.co.uk.

Heh. Yeah, those well know centers of Jew Hatred.


The problem with Fukuyama, is that his adoption of Hegelian theory to say 'history
had ended' with the fall of communism was fallacious, we're down to basically liberal democratic capitalism vs. everything else, Neo Czarism, Islamic Fundamentalism, traditional military dictatorship, the Mandarin state run by the PLA, Chavez and Correa, Morales, et al, suggest the Marxist core hasn't burned itself out either.

The Ackbarian 'it's a trap' in that Pravda piece is dark humor.

Danube of Thought

Tagging America as an "empire" has always been a shameless debasement of the language. The historic attributes of empire have been the conquest and colonization of other nations; the appropriation without compensation of the territories' resources; and the conscription of the conquered peoples into the imperial armed forces.

When the word became a term of opprobrium, it was inevitable that unprincipled propagandists would apply it to the US. Call it what it is: bullshit.


Yes, Cecil the picture helps--it illustrates that if all Defense spending were eliminated the deficit would be one helluva lot smaller.

Of course, I don't favor any such measure. However, it would be impossible to argue that the GWOT has NOT added significantly to the recurring deficits and thus to the national debt. I favor close examination of defense spending and rethinking of strategic priorities, but also the same close examination of all spending--including the possibility of shrinking the amount of mandatory spending.


Italiacto (IE users)


Earlier Thursday, Emanuel said she he was encouraged by the officer's recommendation.

Anyone notice a problem with the sentence above??? This is an excerpt from the article about Emmanuel's eligibility to run for Mayor cited before and reLUNed.

I giggled, well, like a girl...


Earlier Thursday, Emanuel said she he was encouraged by the officer's recommendation.

Anyone notice a problem with the sentence above??? This is an excerpt from the article about Emmanuel's eligibility to run for Mayor cited before and reLUNed.

I giggled, well, like a girl...


I'll need to do some different formatting to get around the italics that I, at least, am seeing:

The historic attributes of empire have been the conquest and colonization of other nations; the appropriation without compensation of the territories' resources; and the conscription of the conquered peoples into the imperial armed forces.

Delian League

By 454 the Delian League could be fairly characterized as an Athenian Empire;

Second Athenian Empire

The Second Athenian Empire or Confederacy was a maritime confederation of Aegean city-states

So, no debasement of the lingo--thus, no excuse for avoiding the intellectual adventure (unwelcome effort though it may be!) of reading Mearshimer's fine article. We're describing "empire in fact," a phenomenon characterized by forceful exercise of influence over associated states. For the ancient Delian League and the later Athenian Confederacy, we now have a Coalition of the (not always so) Willing. Empires by other names.


"it would be impossible to argue that the GWOT has NOT added significantly to the recurring deficits"

How much would 2 or 3 more 911s cost?

It has beed argued that WW2 helped bring the US out of a depression. If true then military spending must have some effect you are not accounting for.

Apparently it's not actually impossible to argue ...


"et al, suggest the Marxist core hasn't burned itself out either"

The default state for humanity is some form of tyranny. Even America can't seem to hold back the slip slide into nanny state tyranny so hardly a surprise when the rest of the planet tries to beat the rush.

Danube of Thought

Wikipedia's description of the Delian League is your response? Why not just go to Wikipedia's definition of empire? Or Merriam-Webster's?

Or are we now simply reduced to talking of "empire in fact?"
Is "empire in fact" a term of opprobrium as well? And is it properly applied to the US? (Try to give us your own views, not those of the odd Mr. Mearshimer.)

Empires by other names.

Yes, exactly. Since they weren't empires, they were called something else.

Whereas the US is not an empire, but is called an empire by some, which debases the meaning of the word.

Precision isn't really your strong point, is it?


I don't know if it's my favorite, but it ain't Christmas without Burl Ives.

As for least favorite, I can't think of any, but I was surprised last night when my better half, who never has a bad word for anyone, removed the name "Vaughn Monroe" from the Pandora Christmas Songs station. He will never be heard again.


Why not just go to Wikipedia's definition of empire?

Good idea--their discussion of the concept is useful:

The term empire derives from the Latin imperium (power, authority). Politically, an empire is a geographically extensive group of states and peoples (ethnic groups) united and ruled either by a monarch (emperor, empress) or an oligarchy. Geopolitically, the term empire has denoted very different, territorially-extreme states — at the strong end, the extensive Spanish Empire (16th c.) and the British Empire (19th c.), at the weak end, the Holy Roman Empire (8th c.–19th c.), in its Medieval and early-modern forms, and the Byzantine Empire (15th c.), that was a direct continuation of the Roman Empire.

Etymologically, the political usage of empire denotes a strong, centrally-controlled nation-state, but in the looser vernacular usage, it can denote a large-scale business enterprise (i.e. a transnational corporation) and a political organisation of either national-, regional- or city scale, controlled either by a person (a political boss) or a group authority (political bosses).[1]

An imperial political structure is established and maintained two ways: (i) as a territorial empire of direct conquest and control with force (direct, physical action to compel the emperor’s goals), and (ii) as a coercive, hegemonic empire of indirect conquest and control with power (the perception that the emperor can physically enforce his desired goals). The former provides greater tribute and direct political control, yet limits further expansion because it absorbs military forces to fixed garrisons. The latter provides less tribute and indirect control, but avails military forces for further expansion.[2] Territorial empires (e.g. the Mongol Empire, the Median Empire) tended to be contiguous areas. The term on occasion has been applied to maritime empires or thalassocracies, (e.g. the Athenian and British Empires) with looser structures and more scattered territories.

Application of the term "empire" to the ancient Delian League as well as to the grouping of nations over which the US exercises a type of hegemony is a legitimate extension of the term. It need connote no opprobrium. This extended use is useful in pointing out a reality which is either masked from view or which some may wish, for ideological reasons, to deny.

An interesting comparison is that Athens controlled the League's treasury, and the US controls the world's reserve currency.


Non-IE italic sufferers. My understanding is:

1 Close all open windows.
2 Clear history.
3 Open a new window.

I am not affected by the italics so I don't know if this works. I have posted this before. Has anyone tried it?

Danube of Thought

Banning Vaughn Monroe from the airwaves is a capital idea.

Worst ever is Burl Ives's "Have a Jolly Jolly Christmas."

Captain Hate

Please elaborate. as the thread on pot seems abandoned due to bankrupt argument.

I think the drugs that are illegal have the status for a good reason. Even Ric agrees that they are harmful to the health of the users. I'm willing to have a line drawn in the sand against them. I mean you can carry the libertarian argument to the point of anarchy if you're unwilling to make a stand on anything.

Czar of Control

"Ric agrees that they are harmful to the health of the users. I'm willing to have a line drawn in the sand against them. I mean you can carry the libertarian argument to the point of anarchy if you're unwilling to make a stand on anything."

No one I've seen here is arguing anarchism, but you have to admit, the line in the sand, must include the rights of adults to make decisions about what poison they may prefer.

Single malt Scotch, anyone?


Wow, talk about a blast from the past, ext. Racing with the Moon

Empires by other names.

Yes, exactly. Since they weren't empires, they were called something else.

Whereas the US is not an empire, but is called an empire by some, which debases the meaning of the word.

Precision isn't really your strong point, is it?

Posted by: Porchlight | December 23, 2010 at 01:33 PM

Empires by other names.

This phrase describes the fact that the Delian League and the later Athenian Confederacy had official names that didn't include the word "empire". However, historians, in describing the realities that were the Delian League and the later Athenian Confederacy, are in agreement that the reality of these confederacies was that they were part of an "Athenian Empire," even though Athens was, formally, a democracy.

Since they weren't empires, they were called something else.

Wrong. Athens didn't formally use the word "empire" because it wished to distinguish itself from that idea, since it was associated with the hated Persian form of government--which simply illustrates the fact that names are not always chosen because a given name is the most accurate descriptor. However, Athens very much wanted the reality of control over members of the League/Confederacy and was willing to engage in genocide to maintain such control--a tactic not in keeping with the name it used. And for that reason historians, who seek accuracy of description, have chosen to describe the reality ("empire") rather than confine themselves to the Athenian self description. An acquaintance with history suffices to show that the League/Confederacy members came to have a rather different understanding of their relation to Athens than the Athenians chose to propagate.

Precision isn't really your strong point, is it?

To the contrary, it is very much a strong point of mine. Try again--but AFTER reading Mearshimer.


"Have a Jolly Holly Jolly Christmas."


Love this Christmas song. I prefer a large choral arrangement like Brooklyn Tabernacle but this version is priceless...



((I think the drugs that are illegal have the status for a good reason. Even Ric agrees that they are harmful to the health of the users.))

His premise that pot and booze are apples and apples, therefore should be legislated identically, is patently false. One major difference is that people smoke pot to get high and there is only one level of high. With booze there are varying degrees of intoxication from low to high. That difference right there indicates the two substances require different handling, legally and otherwise. He thinks nuancing the differences between pot and booze is "bankrupt."


OT-Fox is showing Qualcomm & parking lot flooded, but saying tonight's bowl game is on. Navy playing in your home town DoT. Reckon you have tickets.

Czar of Control


Single malt Scotch, anyone?

"legislated identically"

You leapt vertically to avoid the issue of individual liberty.

No one said anything about legislating pot and booze in the same manner.

I'm sure the medicinal properties of brandy
could be compared to pot and one would find
through direct experience, that it has value beyond the intoxication.

Danube of Thought

"Have a Holly Jolly Christmas."

Still the worst. But I'd sooner listen to it than read Mearshimer, whose authority does not extend to changing the meanings of words in any event.


I'd sooner listen to "Have a Holly Jolly Christmas" than read Mearshimer...

Surprise me, why not? And such an embarrassing admission committed to writing, no less!

Melinda Romanoff


There's a choice involved, either pot, and other "recreational" drugs are the TRUE adult choices to be made by consenting adults, or those who use them are being discriminated against.

As opposed to alcohol and tobacco, which "everyone knows" are bad for you and the public good must be protected by the state.

I see no double standards involved, other than the usual, childlike tantrum of "I want it NOW."

Danube of Thought

"...even though Athens was, formally, a democracy."

You mean like, say, Great Britain?

When will you tell us whether, in your view, the US is or is not an empire (even though it is, formally, a democracy)?


Chubby, you are missing the entire crux of the argument from a classical liberal POV. Any legislating of any activity which harms no one but the user and then by choice should not be legislated, period. Any other argument starts a slide down the slope. The slope should be pitched at 0 degrees. Period. Elsewise, what pitch is the correct one? 5? 15? 25? 40?

And no, pot and other illegal drugs do not harm others until you cross the line of illegality in relation to laws THAT ARE ALREADY in effect. You can be arrested for DWI for overmedicating on cough medicine. Robbery is already illegal.

The pure classical liberal belief is that it is not illegal to do something until it infringes on another's liberties. DWI, robbery, and other crimes all infringe on others and as such are illegal acts themselves.

The classical liberal rightly asks who am I to seek to govern the actions of other men if those actions do me no harm? The CL answer is that you have no right or authority to do so. The nannystater would seek to substitute their authority in place of other men deeming their judgments faulty. The hubris is stunning in that by substituting your judgment for the drug dealers, you have taken away a liberty he was enjoying for no reason other than you know better or that he might (at some time in the future) do harm to others. Facts not in evidence. The act of drug use should not be illegal until it begins infringing on another's rights - then the law could and should intervene.

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