The DREAM Dies

The Senate kills the DREAM Act.

Comments

[peter]

Thank the Good Lord.

[Clarice]

Ditto.
Another pretend initiative by Reid to fool the base.

[jimmyk]

But DADT repeal lives on. I'd rather it be the other way around.

[Clarice]

NYT:
"Democrats were not able to hold ranks. Among those voting no were Senators Ben Nelson, Democrat of Nebraska, Mark Pryor, Democrat of Arkansas, Jon Tester, Democrat of Montana."

[Clarice]

The Corner:Among Republicans, only Sens. Bob Bennett of Utah, Richard Lugar of Indiana, and Lisa Murkowski of Alaska voted for the bill.

On the Democat side, Sens. Jon Tester of Montana, Max Baucus of Montana, Ben Nelson of Nebraska, Mark Pyror of Arkansas, and Kay Hagan of North Carolina voted against the bill.

UPDATE: Forgot to note that Democrat Sen. Joe Manchin of West Virginia — who faces another election in 2012, and won this year by positioning himself to the right of many Democrats (including running an ad in which he shot the cap-and-trade legislation) — also voted against the DREAM Act.

[Danube of Thought]

Buncha Dem senators heard the message of 2010, big-time.

[MayBee]

I'm happy with DREAM dying, DADT moving forward.
A good day.

[MayBee]

The DREAM act was an acronym looking for a good bill.

[boris]

"DADT moving forward. A good day."

Welcome open conflict between the two main groups of the TeaParty coalition. What happened to "don't push the social issues"?

Guess that only applies to one group.

[centralcal]

Been busy wrapping gifts, but I am delighted about DREAM Act failing cloture.

However, there is still the possibility of it returning from zombie-like in the new 112th Congress (per Michelle Malkin quoting Mitch McConnell). Pressure still needs to be brought, sad to say. (Had to laugh, I heard Miss Lindsey on FNC whining for people to STOP calling him about Dream Act, because it wasn't going forward. Keep calling the whiner, I say!!!)

[MayBee]

Welcome open conflict between the two main groups of the TeaParty coalition. What happened to "don't push the social issues"?

Guess that only applies to one group.

a) I'm not a part of any coalition, and have never claimed to be in the TeaParty.
b)I didn't push anything. A vote was taken, and everyone had to make a choice one way or another. That isn't pushing a social issue. That's making the choice when the vote comes up. Voting against DADT is just as much making a choice as voting yes is.
c)I'm happy with this result, as happy as I would have been had gays been allowed to openly serve when Clinton first brought it up. It's just my opinion, and I haven't pushed it on anyone.

[Lord Whorfin]

Given a choice, DADT is better than DREAM.

Your mileage may vary.

[Pagar]

Second the comment by boris at 12:41PM.

[Clarice]

MayBee:
"The DREAM act was an acronym looking for a good bill."

Stealable..

[DebinNC]

Easy to see why Bennett finished third in the UT primary. Harder to see how he got elected three times. We owe the tea partiers so very much.

[Clarice]

Under DADT, the military is given authority to work out how and when to apply it. Isn't it?My guess is that the problem would be biggest in forward combat troops of whom there are far fewer than support forces these days.
Do you suppose that open gays will qualify for special forces or Marne combat operations? That they'll want to be in those forces? That the military won't be judicious in assignments?

I am asking out of curiosity, not to be "cute" .

[boris]

"I haven't pushed it ..."

You seem to infer what I did not imply. Your comment was just an excuse to make an observation. Holding off cloture in the lame duck senate on both fiscal and social issues would have the kind of restraint moderates call for but seldom apply to themselves IMO.

[boris]

"the problem would be biggest in forward combat troops"

Depends what "the problem" is.

Under DADT it is the minority which has the onus to avoid problems.

That would change to something like ...

"Don't Taunt Don't Flaunt"

A trickier policy to administer.

[MayBee]

Boris- just an excuse to make an observation? Of course I'm making an observation.

Did you not want DADT to be repealed now, or do you not want it repealed?

[boris]

IMO it's not up to me. Let the military decide.

[MayBee]

Do you suppose that open gays will qualify for special forces or Marne combat operations? That they'll want to be in those forces? That the military won't be judicious in assignments?

That's an interesting question, clarice. I'd assume the special forces are so select that they have the ability to weed out any openly gay person who causes trouble.

[Pagar]

"Under DADT, the military is given authority to work out how and when to apply it."

IMO, the people who are pushing the DADT will be screaming that the military kept some one from doing what they wanted the 1st minute that the military tries to exercise the authority to work out how and when to apply it. The entire purpose of all the hassle about DADT is to drive the US military into a leftist thinking organization like all the other American government groups have become.

[MoodyBlu]

Maybee:
c)I'm happy with this result, as happy as I would have been had gays been allowed to openly serve when Clinton first brought it up. It's just my opinion, and I haven't pushed it on anyone.

What do you mean by "allowed to openly serve"? Is that a special ribbon or perhaps a rainbow next to a nametag, maybe purple shoe laces? Just wonder what you mean by openly serve?

[Clarice]

The "problem" as I understand it is maintaining discipline and cohesion and that is critical with respect to combat troops and in other situations like maintaining mess halls and trucks just the normal personnel agita all operations in America face at the present.

Be happy the Congress isn't applying the ADA act to the military and requiring they hire schizophrenics and physically handicapped combat troops..

[Hunka Hunka Burning Love.]

Better, it's a perfect acronym for a bad bill. They're all dreamed up disasters. I think we should start calling Congress 'The Dreamboat I saw on Mulberrry Street'.
==========

[Rick Ballard]

Clarice,

Establishment of "protected" classes has resulted in promotion of incompetents (female fighter pilots) which occasioned one them being removed by gravity. Protecting a Mohametan nutter at Ft. Hood resulted in 13 deaths.

No one knows what the death toll for this feel good garbage will be but >1 is a certainty.

[Ain't no fuck's hole.]

Heh, the military decided millenia ago. It's always been don't ask, don't tell, we've more vital matters at hand.
================

[MayBee]

What do you mean by "allowed to openly serve"? Is that a special ribbon or perhaps a rainbow next to a nametag, maybe purple shoe laces? Just wonder what you mean by openly serve?

I mean be able to mention aloud that their same sex domestic partner is just that.

[boris]

"just the normal personnel agita all operations in America face at the present"

Well one diff ... there is no freedom of association in the military. I predict an icrease in both SNAFU and FUBAR.

[MayBee]

I agree that "protected classes" in the military (and elsewhere, like firefighters) leads to disastrous results.

[Porchlight]

I agree that "protected classes" in the military (and elsewhere, like firefighters) leads to disastrous results.

Well, that is what you can look forward to with DADT repeal, sure as night follows day.

[They've been in the foxhole.]

Well, they say the Dream's too broad, but I think amnesty is not inappropriate for such veterans. Maybe not 'Natural Born' citizenship, but they've established community membership.
============

[Clarice]

Could be, boris..The Ft Hood shooter handling suggests that.

OT: Here's MO as an oversize elf yesterday.
http://lh6.ggpht.com/_DawJTCHuL3c/TQyys2LWZQI/AAAAAAAAJjQ/IKhrJiWW0PI/mo%20and%20giant%20santa_thumb%5B2%5D.jpg?imgmax=800>Keep your eye bleach handy

Reason says a survey show the voters really really dislike her lunchroom grab. How long before that multi billion dollar piece of nonsense hits the chopping block? Americans really do not believe childhood obesity is a "national security" issue either. Thank you Princeton and HLS for educating this genius so well. And Ikram, keep up the good work on the costumi.

[MayBee]

The WH has really trotted out the wife and kids for the holidays, haven't they Clarice?
Even when Barack read to school children yesterday, he read "his" new book to his daughters.

[jimmyk]

Do you suppose that open gays will qualify for special forces or Marne combat operations?

I agree with Pagar and Porchlight that whether they genuinely want it or not, they will scream discrimination if they are denied combat or special forces positions.

Reminds me of the joke about gay marriage: "Sure, I'm for it. Why shouldn't they be as miserable as the rest of us?"

Be happy the Congress isn't applying the ADA act to the military and requiring they hire schizophrenics and physically handicapped combat troops.

Ssh, Clarice. Don't give the Dems any new brilliant ideas.

[Clarice]

I regard family sightings as a more reliable indication of WH internal polling than any other,MayBee.
Polls down, roll out Sacha and Malaria..

[Captain Hate]

No one knows what the death toll for this feel good garbage will be but >1 is a certainty.

Exactly; Maybee is entitled to whatever opinion she (Maybee is a she, correct?) has but I want to know how this positively impacts the efficiency of the military, which should be the sole criterion for changing anything associated with it. I'm too old to join the military but I don't pitch a bitch about it because it would be stupid to do so in terms of efficiency. The military isn't a "job" that you go to and leave and too many anti-DADT act like that's all it is. Sexual entanglements are poison to military preparedness and this just ups the ante. This is all Clinton's fault for having DADT as a fallback position after that white-trash idiot stupidly tried to start off his 8 years of debauchery with having gays in the military and then faced the inevitable shitstorm. Btw, does anybody think that there are some gays in the military, perhaps a majority, that think that DADT is just fine?

And yes, having the DREAM nightmare go away is very excellent. Suck it Reid and Murscruntski.

[Clarice]

well, it's not as if many Congressional offspring will be on the lines and facing any danger , is it?

A little sherbet from IOwnthe World

http://www.americanthinker.com/images/includes/1166.gif

[Stephanie]

Leggings??? On a first lady?

Next she'll be shopping at Walmart in solidarity with the "people." Any bets on whether she'd make the cut at that people of Walmart site?

[MayBee]

I regard family sightings as a more reliable indication of WH internal polling than any other,MayBee.

Absolutely.

[Clarice]

She's edging it, Steph.

apt I know a number of older gay men (well, a couple have died of AIDS) who served without problem in the military Given their ages I suspect they were drafted, that it was at a time where being gay was considered a great deal more shameful than it now is, that they were careful with whom they shared that information, and that they were not in front line positions.

I bet DoT could confirm that it as not that unusual.

[Neo]

DADT repeal and now talk of women in combat.

As a former single white male who went thru a "draft lottery," it seems that I will soon have equality.

No more discrimination over who gets to be in a foxhole ... also all that will be left for COs is CO status.

[Captain Hate]

Clarice I've always assumed that was the case. My point is not to be anti-gay, which zealots assume that being pro DADT is about, but to be anti-getting-troops-killed.

[Janet]

Men & women don't bunk together because of sexual tension...are they gonna separate the girlboys from the women, & the boygirls from the men? Did anyone ever ask some of these politicians the hard, embarrassing, realistic questions? What fools.

[peter]

Re: Barack reading his book to the kids. Would have loved it if one of the little tykes asked him if Bill Ayers ghosted it.

I can dream, can't I?

[MayBee]

The military seems to me to be very good at expecting certain behavior and enforcing it.
Sexual preference of those serving shouldn't be the issue. Behavior should continue to be.

[MayBee]

Janet- I agree there are complications along those lines (boygirls and girlboys?) but the fact is they are already sharing bunks and showers. I do realize that knowing is different than not knowing, and there may be discomfort.

In high school, the out boys shower with the straight boys after gym class. Ditto the girls. It's something the younger generations are getting very used to dealing with.

[It's the same old story-BIGOTRY]

"I want to know how this positively impacts the efficiency of the military, which should be the sole criterion for changing anything associated with it."

Remember (historically, that is) what was said about integrating the troops with BLACK people?

"In the late 1940s and early 1950s, our military took on the racial integration of its ranks, before the nation at large had done so … By our assessment, the resistance to alter at that age was far more intense: surveys of the military revealed opposition to racial integration of the Services at levels as high as 80-90% … Some of our best-known and most-revered military leaders from the Earth War II-era voiced opposition to the integration of blacks into the military, making strikingly alike predictions of the negative impact on unit cohesion …"

[Gmax]

Let me say AMF to the Dream Act. You do not get on a path to citizenship merely by going to college. I have more sympathy for serving in the military as a path but we have screwed and looked the other way for so long, that we simply must get control of the border first, then we can discuss who and how might get a path. Nothing before controlling the border. Focus.

[It's the same old story-BIGOTRY]

We know the results. The Naysayers were wrong.

" May 1986

Success Story: Blacks in the Military
Blacks occupy more management positions in the military than in any other sector of American society

by Charles C. Moskos

The banquet for black officers of flag rank fairly glittered with stars. Seventy-six black generals and admirals -- active, reserve, and retired -- were being honored at the National Guard Armory in Washington, D.C. The date was February 26, 1982. More than two thousand people were present. The secretary of defense, Caspar Weinberger, gave the principal address. Perhaps predictably, the banquet received little attention in the national media. Surprisingly, however, it also received little attention in the black press.

The absence of coverage was noteworthy because the record of the U.S. military in race relations is one that deserves recognition. Some 400,000 blacks serve in an active-duty force of 2.1 million. Most of these men and women serve in the enlisted ranks, many as noncommissioned officers, or NCOs, and an increasing number can be found in the officer corps. Blacks occupy more management positions in the military than they do in business, education, journalism, government, or any other significant sector of American society. The armed services still have race problems, but these are minimal compared with the problems that exist in other institutions, public and private.

A visitor to a military installation will witness a degree and a quality of racial integration that are rarely encountered elsewhere. At many points in their terms of military service whites are sure to be commanded by black superiors. In the performance of their military duties blacks and whites typically work together with little display of racial animosity Not only do whites and blacks inhabit the same barracks but also equal treatment is the rule in such non-duty facilities as chapels, barbershops, post exchanges, movie theaters, snack bars, and swimming pools. Observation of any dining facility (as the mess hall has been renamed) reveals little informal racial separation. A rule of thumb is that the more military the environment, the more effective the integration. Interracial comity is stronger in the field than in the garrison, stronger on duty than off, and stronger on post than in the world beyond the base."

[Captain Hate]

STFU dunce. Clouding the issue with sexuality == race. False analogy, idiot.

[It's the same old story-BIGOTRY]

Bigotry is the issue, malcontent.

Try wrapping your feeble intellect around your 'Hate'.

[Danube of Thought]

Clarice, the entire time I was on active duty it was widely understood that there were gay men serving among us. It wasn't much of a topic of discussion, but I do remember two instances, one involving an officer aboard a destroyer and the other an enlisted man in Vietnam, where some sort of gay activity was learned of and both men were whisked away immediately. In both cases not one word was said about it by the command, and we never learned what happened to those men. I assume they were discharged. These events were in the 60's.

I can't claim any expertise this far down the road, but I do know from observing people in their 20's and 30's today that they are infinitely more accepting of gays than we were when I was that age, which I think is an unambiguous good.

The issues of showering and bunking together would seem to pose real problems, and I have no suggestions about how they should be resolved. But it is one thing to be in a group shower with the generalized background understanding that maybe someone in the group is gay, and being there knowing for certain that one of them is--and knowing which one.

I feel sure that today's armed forces will adapt to this, simply because they are so infinitely adaptable. But it all strikes me as very unnecessary, and not undertaken to improve the fighting efficiency of the armed forces but instead to further unrelated agendas.

At least it is better that the repeal comes about this way rather than as the result of some goddamn judge. This is, after all, squarely within congress's constitutional prerogative.

[Gmax]

Answer:

Sens. Jon Tester of Montana, Max Baucus of Montana, Ben Nelson of Nebraska, Mark Pyror of Arkansas, and Kay Hagan of North Carolina voted against the bill.

Question:

Can you name a bunch of vulnerable Democrats in 2012?

LOL

This will play out in 2011 over and over, these frauds are going to be to the right of Jim Demint!

[MayBee]

No, bigotry isn't the issue.

It does no good to pretend that sexuality doesn't affect military life, and can adversely affect performance. They have rules on fraternization for a reason. Good reason.

Discrimination based on race didn't involve that very real complication at all.

[Captain Hate]

It's something the younger generations are getting very used to dealing with.

I'm really tired of reading this "oh the children are soooooo advanced" garbage; high school is not the military. In fact most high schoolers don't join the military; although they might if recruitment and re-ups go down enough because of this to make a draft necessary.

That the troll supports this should tell you all you need to know that this is about weakening the military.

[MayBee]

There. I should have just waited for DoT to comment. I agree.

[Wayne]

DADT is a military issue, not a social issue. The problem is that heterosexuals will abandon the military in droves, turning it into primarily a homosexual organization. To compensate, expect the government to bring back the draft. And that is the real purpose in the first place. Then Obama, if still in power could have his domestic military he craves. Remember it is always about power in the hands of a few.

[Janet]

Oh no, there is no way I think this is a good idea at all. I was just wondering if any "journalist" ever asked any hard questions of these politicians.
This crosses the line of tolerance...to acceptance of a sinful behavior. It is a sin, & we are fools to be so morally weak that we won't say it. I led a really wild, edgy life for awhile. My family always loved me, but they never told me those choices were good, or accepted my behavior.

Love the sinner - hate the sin.
The rule is now, love the sinner - make them feel okay by saying their behavior isn't a sin - promote the behavior to all others.

[MayBee]

I'm really tired of reading this "oh the children are soooooo advanced" garbage; high school is not the military. In fact most high schoolers don't join the military;

Very true.
I'm not saying they are advanced, just saying they view things differently. Obviously I can't predict how this will turn out, but I do know the kids I know who are joining the military or applied to the academies simply believe that DADT's repeal was a foregone conclusion.

Obviously, not everyone will like it. I just believe the military can control behavior that doesn't meet its standards.

[Danube of Thought]

heterosexuals will abandon the military in droves, turning it into primarily a homosexual organization. To compensate, expect the government to bring back the draft.

Neither of those things will happen.

[jimmyk]

The military seems to me to be very good at expecting certain behavior and enforcing it.

Really? Have you seen the statistics on pregnancy in the military? True, the ones who become pregnant get discharged, as I understand it, but I doubt that's what you mean by "enforcing good behavior."

[MayBee]

Really? Have you seen the statistics on pregnancy in the military? True, the ones who become pregnant get discharged, as I understand it, but I doubt that's what you mean by "enforcing good behavior."

At least people engaging in gay sex won't get preggers.

(I do believe in the military and its standards for behavior. Perfect? no. Strong? Yes. Perhaps the best on earth)

[Clarice]

I knew a woman who was in the first class at Princeton to live in coed dorms.The bathrooms were coed, too, and the showers had only flimsy see thru plastic curtains. Now, I won't say this is something I would like or easily habituate to. I probably would have developed severe bladder and colonic distress, but apparently they did get used to it.

[pagar]

"At least it is better that the repeal comes about this way rather than as the result of some goddamn judge"

This is what judges do to decisions involving the US military today. The case does not involve DADT, but rather combat experiences vs pure BS. More and more in America we see judges coming down on the side of < a href="http://www.lifesentencesblog.com/?p=904"> pure BS .

"What outraged veterans’ groups was the majority’s view that knowing about Swisher’s lies probably would not have mattered to the outcome of the case. Critics see this as a “slap in the face” to combat veterans.
As one veteran put it, the majority opinion implies that “the average American no longer attaches any significance to a veteran’s wartime service.”

I believe repeal of DADT is being pushed by people, who have no intention of serving in the US military and do not value the service of Americans who do serve. It is strictly a way to cause more problems for the military members.

[Clarice]

They are already assigning women to submarine duty--how much closer can you get to the opposite sex than that?

[pagar]

Once again the LUN in my 03:O8 post works.

[Gmax]

Cant you just feel KOS pain here:

There are Democrats I expect to be a--holes. I never thought Jon Tester would be among them.

Anybody who votes to punish innocent kids is an a--hole. Plain and simple. And while I expect it from Democrats like Ben Nelson and C-Street denizen Mark Pryor, I honestly thought Jon Tester was different. I was wrong. I am now embarrassed that I worked so hard to help get him elected in 2006. I feel personally betrayed.

Not only will I do absolutely nothing to help his reelection bid, but I will take every opportunity I get to remind people that he is so morally bankrupt that he'll try to score political points off the backs of innocent kids who want to go to college or serve their country in the military.

To me, he is the Blanche Lincoln of 2012 -- the Democrat I will most be happy to see go down in defeat. And he will. Nothing guarantees a Republican victory more than trying to pretend to be one of them.

Say Adios to the fraud from Montana!

[Thomas Collins]

See LUN for the existing statutory language. It strikes me that the existing law, about to be repealed, is a good common sense approach to military service by homosexuals. In addition, although Congressional findings are often trumped up, it seems to me that the findings in the case of the 1993 were right on the mark.

I am now going to try to find the language of the about to be enacted law.

[Danube of Thought]

My cardiologist was in the Naval Academy class of 1977; his senior year was the first year that women were admitted (they entered in July 1976). He tells me that the Academy was caught pretty flatfooted by the whole thing and had no idea how to proceed, but the very first rule was that none of the women would live on the first floor of Bancroft Hall--otherwise all the guys would be sneaking around peeking in the window.

But they figured things out over time, I guess.

Incidentally, the law requiring their admission was enacted without a single congesssional hearing.

[jimmyk]

apparently they did get used to it.

Europeans have evidently gotten used to high taxes, cradle-to-grave welfare, and nationalized health insurance, but that doesn't mean we should inflict them on ourselves.

Pregnancy in the military is just the tip of the iceberg. The issue, as others have said, is cohesion. If some soldiers are getting pregnant, many more are involved in relationships that can jeopardize cohesion, and that will be as true among gays as among straights.

[sbw]

When I look at gays in the military I see a parallel to the problems I face trying to establish and manage a dress code in our business.

* First of all, I have more important things to do.
* Second, no written policy is going to fit all circumstances.
* Third, business comes first.
* Fourth, so the concept should be don't do anything to draw attention to yourself.
* Fifth, don't mix business with pleasure.
* Sixth, don't make a big deal out of it.

[Thomas Collins]

I hope that the LUNed bill language, which I got of the Thomas.Gov web site, is not the final language. It is a horrible bill. It invites social engineer federal court judges (of which there are many) to interfere in military affairs (the bill bans actions for damages, but federal courts can do just as much damage with injunctive relief). I thought there would be some provision mandating deference to military judgment as to conduct that might disrupt military cohesion, but I didn't find any on first glance.

I am hoping I missed something in my quick initial read. This bill appears to be an invitation for federal courts to intervene in military discipline.

[MayBee]

Anybody who votes to punish innocent kids is an a--hole.

Thanks, GMax.

What backwards thinking. A vote against the DREAM act doesn't punish innocent kids, it just puts them on the same footing as any other person who wants to immigrate here.

The idea that any child can be protected against the consequences of the decisions of their parents is liberal fantasy.

I wouldn't mind finding some way to create a visa path for kids who were brought here illegally at an early age, but the DREAM act wasn't it.

[Clarice]

jimmyk, I expect that familiarity breeds contempt more often than it does passion. Just saying.

[Thomas Collins]

I read it again and it is just as bad on the second reading. The existing law clearly is consistent with homosexuals serving in the military. The new law is a godsend for activist groups that want to harass the military with lawsuits.

[sammy small]

How long before an openly gay soldier, wounded in combat and bleeding profusely, infects his buddies with HIV while trying to save his life.

[Clarice]

Do you suppose this act bans removing HIV infected soldiers from the battlefield?

[Commando Cody@AL's Cafe]

Ya, but no one was really mission ready cause of the terror 'from the moon' Bad op like val.;messy ass,s using others for their dirty work.

[Clarice]

I haven't read the act, TC, but it wouldn't surprise me. Minority "rights" of any sort have been the Trojan horse cover under which the left has undermined many things including public education and good order.

[Captain Hate]

Try wrapping your feeble intellect around your 'Hate'.

LOL @ a damaged idiot like you suggesting a course of action to somebody else: Life Lessons from the Imbecile. Shouldn't you be preparing one of your holiday gifts where you act like you're PUK or bad posting from Hell? Those are the acts of a sane individual, right? Or were those from one of the voices in your drug addled head that may have been temporarily silenced through whatever pharmacological concoction you inflict on yourself?

[Thomas Collins]

I don't think the bill bans removing HIV infected homosexuals or heterosexuals from the battlefield. The problem with the bill is that it will spawn litigation on whether military regulations that are neutral on their face are a pretext for sexual orientation discrimination.

I understand the argument that folks who like to litigate aren't likely to want to go into combat. Lawsuit machines would probably prefer to claim discrimination from a cushy job. However, the military has many non-combat positions, and the Hasan case conclusively demonstrates that a dangerous amount of PCness has already crept into the military.

The job of diversity facilitator may be the next big career opportunity in the military.

[It's the same old story-BIGOTRY]

Psychotropic therapy...............

Git yerself a new palin-drone. Or is boredom your strategy for dealing with opposing views?

I enjoy your boring attempts at prenatal prose.

[Captain Hate]

Btw, don't you think Congress would be serving the troops better by making sure they all have absentee ballots that are counted? And I'd like to thank Snot Brown, Voinovich (thank god he's gone after this session, the ME twins, Murscruntski and whatever other Repukes voted for this after saying they wouldn't vote for anything until a budget was passed. Another case of Repukes' words meaning nada.

[Thomas Collins]

Clarice, the bill demonstrates the importance of a POTUS who will appoint and a Senate that will confirm federal judges who believe in the rule of law as opposed to the rule of use of statutes to promote their idea of social justice. I agree with you that "rights" litigation in the hands of a prog judge is a recipe for institution undermining.

[Captain Hate]

I enjoy your boring attempts at prenatal prose.

I enjoy that you believe anybody cares about or respects a single thing you say; and that you only exist to relieve my occasional boredom by rattling your self-imposed cage.

[MoodyBlu]

Hey Captain,

What up with MD giving Fridge the boot? Will you be pulling for my Hokies in the Orange Bowl?

[LouP]

I guess I'm just a dinosaur on the DADT issue. I admit that it has been years and years since I last served in the destroyer Navy, and have no idea how females were accomodated in the living arrangements. But I know that small combatants like destroyers and submarines are extremely space-limited, and that every time a new gender is added to the crew, and if living and bathing accomodations are segregated, then the space required increases by a geometric progression, not a linear one.

Destroyers have, however, been getting bigger and bigger. Maybe the next destroyer design will start with a cruise ship painted gray and just add a few strap-on missles. All to accomodate the social experiment du jour. And maybe we can make submarines that are run by robots. Potential DADT problems are not limited to "combat troops."

I seriously doubt that any of the Navy Admirals who are going along with this are tin-canners or submariners; most Admirals come from the space-is-not-a-problem carrier Navy.

[squaredance]

It is preposterous to treat homosexuality as just some sort of prejudice that old fogies have and one that will soon be wiped from history due to "social progress". Rather, this is social degeneracy and what will be wiped from history will be this nation

It is in no way normative or nominal behavior.

A civilization, society or nation that thinks otherwise is headed for destruction. This is why the Left encourages it--in fact it was a known and articulated destabilization strategy (and tactic too) of the political direct action directorates of the USSR, and it was target specifically at the USA. Of course, the Left care no more about homosexuals than they do about Black people. It is merely a ruse. It is in one sense no different from than the Left's promotion of Islam. It is cultural Marxism and must be rejected pure and simple. It is just suicidally idiotic not to grasp this all. This is a direct attack on the Judeo-Christian foundations of our civilization. Once they are shorn away, it will be a Hell on Earth. Soon to follow the repeal of DADT will be suppression and vilification of Christian in the Armed Services. That is just the point of it.

It is not merely a practical or utilitarian matter, and people who base their morality on such arguments in fact have no morality at all. And be clear, this is a moral matter of great and grave import.

Decent men and women will not in the end countenance this sort of immorality and nor will they accept it thrust on it from above. They in the end will not have their religious beliefs repressed. Great social destabilization will come of this. This too is the point.

Though as a practical matter, in a real war, those gays will get fragged. No decent man will take orders from a man who desires to engage in sodomy nor are they going to sit in front of their sons and explain why this would be a good thing to do. It is one thing for cultural relativist to sit on the Upper East Side and promote this. It is another thing to take it out to a battle field (or a middle school, for that matter).

(In fact, the military needs to shed it current Feminist nonsense. The last thing we need it to lard it up with even more PC idiocy.)

People here who think that this is all nonsense have not thought it through and a stuck on a extremely shallow and superficial grasp of human life and how the human experience is expressed in a decent society, though to be fair, they are perhaps not capable of it--enough here, though they do not realize it, have already internalized a great many of the Cultural Marxist's cant, "positions" and world view, "Gay Rights" being but one of them.

It does not surprise, however that the pseudo-conservatives at JOM either mince around the issue or so wrongly imagine that the "gay community" has some sort of legitimate moral basis or grounds for grievances. Let us be clear: They have neither.

Our very civilization is at risk, and not merely from the economic insanity of the left.

Cultural Marxism must be wholly rolled back and firmly reject. This most certainly means that the its pernicious dictum of the moral equivalence of homosexuality an heterosexually must be squarely faced and dealt with.

It is not that the older generations were "less able to deal with it", but rather they were not so morally decadent to imagine that it was anything other than the great sin and immorality that it is. How profoundly narcissistic it is to imagine that for the entire history of Christendom up until this generation our forebears were mislead by their bigotry. It is the opposite that is the case.

If you think that a restoration of The Republic is merely a matter of controlling the purse string in Washington you are deeply mistaken, and you are deeply ignorant and confused about both the nature of your civilization and the mortal danger it is in.

I do not know how some of you people here can call yourselves conservatives. You sound like shallow, utilitarian opportunists. It is shameful.

[Danube of Thought]

The issue of HIV-infected men on the battlefield is a big one--blood gets all over everybody. I assume that a gay soldier is much more likely to be infected than straights, and if so very frequent testing would be important.

And you just know for certain that they'll feel they have to test everybody with the same frequency rather than "profile," which is high in the pantheon of today's sins.

[MayBee]

I hope the military is currently testing everyone for HIV. Especially since DADT, which eliminates any ability to profile, is already the law of the land.

[MayBee]

Now.

Let's talk about whether Andrew Sullivan, et al, will freak out when openly gay interrogators are allowed near Muslim detainees. Will that be abuse, in the way letting dogs and women near them was declared abuse?

[It's the same old story-BIGOTRY]

"I enjoy that you believe anybody cares about or respects a single thing you say;"

Your enjoyment, like your personal views, are not based upon any relevant facts.

IOW; You've obviously mistaken me for someone who gives a crap.

[Ignatz]

I served on active duty and the reserves in SAC for six years. In all of the bases I was at it was coed service because we were flight-line, crew-chief enlistees which was considered non combat even though we went with the planes on any deployment other than a day return trip and even then we often went along.
There were a few competent women on the flight line but overall it was very detrimental for preparedness, competence and personal conflict and tension. If you toss openly gay people into the same mix it is impossible to see how it could improve things and will only make matters worse.
Sure, the military will adapt and still be competent. But the measure should be how do we make it the most competent and efficient we can, because the difference between 'fairly competent and chock full of equal rights' and 'extremely competent and chock full of the best warriors we have in the best circumstances we can provide' can be the difference between winning and losing a war.

[Captain Hate]

What up with MD giving Fridge the boot? Will you be pulling for my Hokies in the Orange Bowl?

I have mixed feelings on Ralf. He did an excellent job of lifting us out of the Vanderlinden vat of despair and making us more competitive; but he couldn't take us to the next level. Even though he ended up with a good record this year we still didn't beat a single good club in a down year for the ACC. If we can get somebody like a Mike Leach it would be a good step up. Btw, assistant coach Franklin, who was supposed to take over for him eventually, was hired by Vanderbilt; so it's not like the Fridge leaving was something that wasn't being planned for. In summary, Ralph was a good coach for the Terps and will be remembered fondly for what he did.

I'll be cheering for your guys but if Beamer pulls another Chokie special, I'll turn it off quickly. Good luck though; I've heard Tie-Rod Taylor has had a very good senior year.

[Porchlight]

The military seems to me to be very good at expecting certain behavior and enforcing it.

One of the ways they enforce it is to do things like place people who are sexually attracted to one another into separate living quarters.

The creation of a new protected class ensures that minor (if not major) infractions will be routinely ignored. It's the same mentality that resulted in Nidal Hasan getting promoted over and over again rather than being kicked out.

[Danube of Thought]

My great nephew has served in a destroyer the past two years. It has been stunning to me to learn how much of his time, and that of his shipmates, is taken up by gender issues. This is not to suggest that they aren't fine officers and sailors--they are--but their very presence introduces a great deal of inefficiency.

My young cousin graduated from the Academy in May and is now an Ensign in a deployed destroyer. I can't wait to see her and get her thoughts on the matter.

[Porchlight]

it just puts them on the same footing as any other person who wants to immigrate here.

And not even that, because the kids who are already here are just that - already here. They're already enjoying the benefits of living in the United States. The ones who would like to immigrate are still SOL on that score.

[Dave (in MA)]

DADT:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25Qhbdijv5Y> src=http://i3.ytimg.com/vi/25Qhbdijv5Y/default.jpg>

The Brits had it figured out a long time ago.

[MayBee]

One of the ways they enforce it is to do things like place people who are sexually attracted to one another into separate living quarters.

The creation of a new protected class ensures that minor (if not major) infractions will be routinely ignored.

I'm not sure how the second paragraph follows.
I don't think anyone's bad sexual behavior should be ignored in the military. Although jimmyk says there is currently a problem with pregnancies.

As far as putting people who are sexually attractive to each other in separate living facilities- DADT has made that impossible when it comes to gay people. Only gay people who discuss it are removed, and even then it can be for discussing their own gay partner rather than their sexual attraction to someone in the bunk.

Now, I do appreciate that it is uncomfortable when we know someone who may be sexually attracted to us can see us shower, etc. It is different than someone who is sexually attracted to us watching us shower and not knowing. I'm not dismissing that.

I'm just saying that given the fact gay people are already serving (legally), it seems the military can find a way to target inappropriate behavior in a way other than simply saying gay people just can't admit they are gay.