Powered by TypePad

« Shrewd BS | Main | Sunday Afternoon »

January 09, 2011

Comments

diIstracting ourselves with small talk

I have never seen a comment condemning the threat of violence.

I hear it now that it's too late for the little girl.

Perhaps now you will see how important it is to be proactive on this issue.

MayBee

My position is that we don't know what motivated the shooter. I merely pointed out that the most obvious motive is right-wing politics, given his choice of victims.
I always reserve judgment until the facts are at hand. There really is no other way for me.

Snort.
While refusing to assign blame, bunkerbuster assigns blame while redefining the word "obvious".

Just keep in mind, your statement doesn't hold historically. Rabin was killed by a Jewish man, not a Palestinian. JFK was killed by a communist. The people who tried to kill Ford and Reagan were just pretty crazy.

diIstracting ourselves with small talk

I think you are well aware of the source of these pastes. I hope some self=awareness goes with it.

sbw

Narcisolator on Aisle 3!

Caliogstro

"While refusing to assign blame, bunkerbuster assigns blame while redefining the word "obvious"."

That's because 'blame' for the act in question is different from having some responsibility for the atmosphere created which emboldens such acts.

Minimalist Poster

The singer in my last band taught a course in "Government" in one of the local high schools. The guitar player taught business at one of the local universities. One rehearsal they both came in full of Nina Totenberg on Heller. I get my information from Insty, JOM & Volokh, among others. After that, I can't say that they teach "Civics" in our local high schools.

Jack is Back!

Clarice,

Great "Pieces".

I have to tell all JOM trolls, nihilists and charlatans, you do not want to mess with someone who has a 91 year old mother that can down a bowl of tainted cranberries, get on an airplane and fly from Florida to California on her own.

Pistolas? Hell, she only needs her rapier wit to rip you to shreds.

hit and run

http://www.christianchronicle.org/blog/2011/01/breaking-news-church-member-killed-wife-wounded-in-arizona-shooting-rampage/>Another we lost. Dorwan Stoddard was 76 years old. Dorwan and his wife Mavy were called the "lifeblood" of their local church,described as people who put their hearts into helping others. When the shooting began, Dorwan got on top of Mavy to protect her from the gunfire. Dorwan was shot in the head and killed. Mavy suffered three shots but survived.

Dorwan saved Mavy's life at the expense of his own.

Captain Hate

Nice to see that Frum was quick to blame Palin for this; never miss an opportunity to be relevant, eh Dave? I think it would be nice if people like Rove could come out strongly against baseless slams against Republicans, assuming that he disagrees with them.

clarice

Really, instead of all this nonsense about make believe political motivation, we have to encourage states to adopt better means for dealing with psychotics. The present system is simply intolerable.

BTW Az believes Loughner had an accomplice, a man about 50. They's released a pic of him . I have no idea how sound their suspicion of him is.

daddy

Watching the 2 Doctors just this second on FOX who did the surgery.

What an extremely impressive pair. Such a relief to hear such intelligent statements so well put forth by 2 obviously brilliant and decent guys. Still obviously a horrific situation, but man I sure am impressed by the fellows who saved her life.

Sue

daddy,

I was thinking the same thing. If ever I need a brain doctor, send me there.

MayBee

Amen, daddy.

Really, instead of all this nonsense about make believe political motivation, we have to encourage states to adopt better means for dealing with psychotics. The present system is simply intolerable.

I second this, clarice. The VaTech shooter also highlighted this problem.

Gmax

How does Paul Krugman and his ilk shoehorn into their narrative the fact that the Judge who was shot AND KILLED was a Republican appointee of BUSH! Giffords is currently reported to recover, but that aint the case for the judge. Does that come to the surface at some point or is it really just reflexive hate as TM surmises?

Old Lurker

Rob: "The guy was a lefty before he was insane."

Distinction without a difference?

clarice

Think how much richer those doctors would be if they could spout nonsense on TV like Shep Smith or Katie Couric or Christine Amanpour.

Does anyone here know a network exec? I have a tip to save them tons of money..fire all your anchors and overpaid news readers; replace them and your nitwit kid producers with smart people who care about the truth.

Rocko Lamont

The shooter was a far left lib (aka psycho) and the lefties can't stand it so they try to distract with their lies. Unfortunately for them all they are doing are showing themselves as fools.

Very entertaining.

Kendel J

After the shooting, Obama's hands-on response was to....wait for it....attend a football party. Now there's a caring and compassionate man.

matt

my own thoughts on the Giffords narrative. LUN

Old Lurker

"I have never seen a comment condemning the threat of violence."

And that is a good thing since that threat is all that ultimately protects our liberty from threats external and yes internal. Acting on a threat is a big deal, but no student of history can deny the value of acting when it must be.

glasater

For the left, in its extremis, shame has fled

MarkO @ 10:06 AM -- I remember back in the early seventies or earlier -- it was psychologists who were preaching that the cure for society was to get rid of 'shame'.

Gmax

This guy hated religion? Who does that sound like?

He read and posted on his Twitter account that the Communist Manifesto was one of his favorite books? Again I ask...

Angry Bird

"An internal Department of Homeland Security (DHS) memo quoted by FOX News Channel revealed the gunman - named by the media as Jared Loughner, 22 - is 'possibly linked' to American Renaissance.

"The group subscribes to an ideology that is 'anti-government, anti-immigration, anti -ZOG (Zionist Occupational Government), anti-Semitic,' according to the DHS memo."

I blame Anduril and Bubu.

clarice

Very good, matt, but i wished you had been more specific about what we need to do about paranoid schizophrenics. .

Jack is Back!

Clarice,

Have you ever given thought to the pharma industry and how they have convinced doctors and psychiatrists that they can handle the Schizo and Manic-Depressives and other mental derangements via medication versus internment? Some how that sounds plausible to me. For crying out loud, they're tearing down St. Elizabeth's in DC to put in the campus for DHS (most appropriate site for the most irrelevant government agency) and instead are willing to pay through the nose to keep the unbalanced medicated instead of locked up.

Charlie (Colorado)

The most obvious case is that the shooter's a right wingnut because he assassinated someone closely associated with opposing the wingnut's pet cause in Arizona: removing civil rights from undocumented workers.

Sadly, what's obvious is rarely true.

Porchlight

One thing that separates this killer from killers in the past about whose motives there was much speculation: he is still alive.

Meaning, we'll hear from him, eventually.

The left has to get the narrative established NOW so that it will be as difficult as possible to dislodge it when that happens.

Imagine if we had a real leader who would come out and condemn the hatemongering and finger-pointing (which is all in one direction).

But we don't, so this is going to get a lot uglier.

MayBee

That's because 'blame' for the act in question is different from having some responsibility for the atmosphere created which emboldens such acts.

Is there any evidence at all this guy was aware of any "atmosphere" outside his own head?
His writings don't indicate any awareness of current events. He was unaware enough socially that he made outbursts in class and was suspended from his Community College.
It seems this guy had more internal influence than external.

MUGGS

American Renaissance.

Just more radical than Tea Party, but on the same wavelength.

http://www.amren.com/

clarice

JIB as I recall it it was the libertarian/Szasz view that caused the shift. Big Phama's development of drugs that could tame the violent affects of some mental illness added to the mix but they were not the main drivers.

I recall countless stories about abuses in mental hospitals and improper institutionalizations of people who were just difficult or non conformists in the press.
This was not unlike the stories about orphanages. The outcome is thousands of kids in rarely monitored and often horrid foster care homes and crazy people living on the street.

MUGGS

"It seems this guy had more internal influence than external."

If that's true you got lucky, this time.

What about next time?

MayBee

Meaning, we'll hear from him, eventually.

The left has to get the narrative established NOW so that it will be as difficult as possible to dislodge it when that happens.

True, porch. But remember that the Pentagon report about Hassan doesn't mention the word "Islam". The shootings in Arkansas NEVER get mentioned, although the shooter declared himself a jihadist.
Even the Times Square would-be bomber declared that Muslims are in a war against America, but that got less press than the idea that his foreclosure had sent him over the edge.

(I'm not saying this to make a point about Muslims and terrorism, but to say the real story from the shooters themselves is often ignored)

MayBee

If that's true you got lucky, this time.

What about next time?

What? Who in this awful event was lucky?

matt

I think lockdown is the only answer, clarice.

Having had very close exposure to a bipolar/schizophrenic, I have watched as every attempt to help them or treat them has been foiled by their own paranoia, addictions, and self destructive behavior.

When governor, Reagan closed down most of California's mental health facilities. The same happened across the nation as the American Psychiatric Association had its own mental breakdown.Governments were simply acting on the supposedly best advice.

Now, we see many of these people on the streets. Others, like Loughner, fly under the radar. Institutions are one answer, but what about the questions of diagnosis? Who is qualified to decide the fate of these individuals when the competent authorities have proven incompetent?

Danube of Thought

Communist Party USA.

Just more radical than the ACLU, but on the same wavelength.

MUGGS

"Who in this awful event was lucky?"

There IS intelligent life at JOM !

Danube of Thought

Fair Play for Cuba Committee.

Just more radical than Americans for Democratic Action, but on the same wavelength.

Captain Hate

Just more radical than Tea Party, but on the same wavelength.

Nope, he was a mentally ill loser just like you. Own him, jerk.

Jack is Back!

Clarice,

Don't forget the effect Ken Kesey had on the generation that pushed for the liberalization of mental illness and confinement as being part of the Human Rights schtick!

MUGGS

"on the same wavelength."

At least you're not Anti-Zog/Semitic

jorgxmckie

Soviet Stalinists.

Just a teeny, tiny bit more radical than Progressives, but on the same wavelength.

Porchlight

(I'm not saying this to make a point about Muslims and terrorism, but to say the real story from the shooters themselves is often ignored)

Good points, MayBee. I'm probably being naive.

Danube of Thought

Vinceremos Brigade.

Just more radical than the Democratic Party, but on the same wavelength.

Danube of Thought

Viet Cong.

Just more radical than Jane Fonda, but on the same wavelength.

Danube of Thought

"If that's true you got lucky, this time."

Please explain in what respect we got lucky.

clarice

Interestingly the man who produced the Kesey movie said with age he's grown to empathize with Nurse Ratchet

matt,what about the Wisconsin system I described--a requirement that people so diagnosed live in supervised group homes from hich they will be locked down if they refuse to follow the rules and take their meds?

narciso

It's Venceremos, back in the 60s it was a way station to the Weather Underground, their president in the 70s and 80s was Jonetta Cole,
Spelman College President and one time Clinton education transition task force head.

Charlie (Colorado)

I wonder why that happened.

That's been reverted. It probably doesn't make much sense to pay a lot of attention to Wikipedia on this kind of current event.

MUGGS

"in what respect we got lucky."

You've already excused yourselves from ANY responsibility for the tone that inflames the nutjobs, so why concern yourself with the fact that you are weaving that web of Plausible Deniability right here at JOM, as we speak !

MayBee

MUGGS- do you find yourself motivated to violence by the current political tone?

glasater

I have as a good acquaintance a female psychologist who got a "free ride" -- having the government pay for her tuition through an advanced degree after mental institutions were deconstructed during the time Clarice mentions earlier.
These psychologists were to help "crazy people" turned loose on society.
So we ended up with a ton of psychologists hanging out their shingles who made a living catering to the 'worried well' rather than helping the truly mentally ill homeless people.

MUGGS

"do you find yourself motivated to violence by the current political tone?"


changing the subject, much?

I am not accusing you of being the nutjob, only the apparent cheerleader of such language, that is, until something like this happens.

Then you're all; "The poor little girl"

Captain Hate

the tone that inflames the nutjobs

What tones inflame you, imbecile. Loughner listened to Hendrix and The Doors. Should we ban classic crock?

Take your meds and stfu.

MUGGS

Maybee;

You are the most reasonable commenter who habitates the right wing. I am not including you in the cheerleader gang. I think it may have something to do with the tempering of your views through your spouse. JOM needs more mixed marriages.

MayBee

I am not accusing you of being the nutjob, only the apparent cheerleader of such language, that is, until something like this happens.

I'm not changing the subject. You seem to know that people are motivated to violence by the current political tone, so I'm wondering how you know that.
Which language motivates them?
Who is it that is motivated by this language?

The "current political tone" seems to have also motivated some nice people to meet respectfully with their Congresswoman at a grocery store yesterday.

Danube of Thought

"...the tone that inflames the nutjobs"

Did I miss the part where someone established that the nutjobs are inflamed by a tone? Sensible people have been rejecting that cuckoo nonsense at least since Dealy Plaza, if not since Ford's Theater. But the mushy, addleheaded mind cannot let go of comfy imbecilities.

MayBee

Loughner listened to Hendrix and The Doors. Should we ban classic crock?

That reminds me, Captain Hate, of the people who wanted to blame Marilyn Manson and the game Doom after Columbine. And Michael Moore, who made money blaming America's Military Industrial Complex for it.

MUGGS

"You seem to know that people are motivated to violence by the current political tone, so I'm wondering how you know that."

The same way you do. Or are you saying the tone is not inciting to violence? If such is the case, we have a pretend discussion.

Common sense is uncommon

glasater

There's also supposedly the Charles Manson murders and the Beatles 'Helter Skelter' album.
Wonder where that one fits in.

MUGGS

Sorry for the earlier comment, maybee.

You are the MOST radical, eviscerating, castrating Tea-Bagger on God's great Earth, and NO!, it's not warming.

I hope that helps with your paramours.

MayBee

The same way you do. Or are you saying the tone is not inciting to violence? If such is the case, we have a pretend discussion.

Yes, I'm saying the tone is not inciting to violence.

Let's flip this. Apparently, the shooter had met Giffords before, and found her stupid.
Do you think the rhetoric about some female politicians being stupid and unworthy of respect encouraged him to see Giffords as something less than human?

Gmax

Muggs = cleo

There is no worthwhile discussion to be had. Skip it.

Danube of Thought

"Or are you saying the tone is not inciting to violence?"

Absolutely.

"If such is the case, we have a pretend discussion."

No shit, Dick Tracy.

(I do think, however, that there is a tone inside this poor fool's head that compels him to say laughably stupid things.)

larry

Excellent pieces as usual, Clarice. Any scuttlebutt in DC about John 'Jack" Wheeler III's demise?

bgates-throw the last talk radio host through the last plate glass window Rick must have missed this bgates, else he'd have told you "Now that's defenestration, boy."

TM, nice to see you commenting. Thanks again for the greatest blog.

clarice

Thanks, larry. If there is scuttlebutt i haven't heard it. I think he may have suffered some brain injury or disease and it's possible he was just randomly mugged or climbed into the dumpster to stay warm. He seems on the tape and from eyewitness accounts to have been completely befuddled and the report of his placing incendiary devices at his neighbors' seems so out of character.

Sue

This sheriff can't help himself. The defense attorneys are gearing up the video as Exhibit 1 at the trial.

MUGGS

Maybe it's the wording.

Your escape clause from responsibility has to do with the difference between 'tone' and
justifiable anger.

You see nutjobs and fellow wingers as justifiably angry about the political climate, who are already angry enough to take action to reverse it. Although you do not currently sanction the use of violence, you can see how someone would be forced to
undertake such action.

But it's not the 'tone' ( thereby releasing yourselves from any responsibility for yesterday's events) which led to the tragedy;

It's the gubmint who's responsible for what happened, because they created the 'atmosphere' of political discontent.

"Obamacare killed the little girl"

MayBee

No. The responsibility for what happened yesterday is with the shooter and whatever mental illness he has.

Although you do not currently sanction the use of violence, you can see how someone would be forced to
undertake such action.

No, I don't really see how someone would be forced to undertake such action under the current tone or against the current government actions.

Sue

thereby releasing yourselves from any responsibility for yesterday's events

This nut had issues with Giffords in 2007. Long before the nation ever heard of Palin or the TEA party. Fuck off, fool.

sbw

Adding Muggs to the Narcisolator.

clarice

What took you so long?

Danube of Thought

Cleo is dabbling in some weird form of mind-reading to provide fuel for his psychobabble machine. Give it a rest, dunce. This is neither the time, the subject matter nor the place for you to make a fool of yourself anew.

If you had the slightest inkling of the contempt in which you were held here, you would never return.

MUGGS

"Fuck off, fool."

You have to admit, commentators here are a bit cavalier in their language about the implied threat of violence against political adversaries.

Call it Free Speech (the last refuge of a scoundrel), or in Mauguire's case, Fee Speech.

sbw

Maybee, if you can have no constructive influence on the troll, your attempts only instigate further anti-social behavior on his part.

As I explained on an earlier thread, the best approach is as with an ill-behaved dog -- paying attention reinforces bad behavior.

sbw

Clarice, would have sooner but I was undecorating the Christmas tree and had not followed the thread until now.

Sue

I do not consider you a political adversary. I consider you to be a fool.

Caliogstro

"some weird form of mind-reading"

*chuckle

In your case, it's not that difficult

sbw

I used to consider putting names into the Narcisolator was a pain. Now I feel it both a pleasure and a public service.

Trinculo

"Shakespearean fools are usually clever peasants or commoners that use their wits to outdo people of higher social standing. In this sense, they are very similar to the real fools, clowns, and jesters of the time, but their characteristics are greatly heightened for theatrical effect. They are largely heterogeneous. [1] The "groundlings" (theater-goers that were too poor to pay for seats and thus stood in the front by the stage) that frequented the Globe Theater were most likely particularly drawn to these Shakespearian fools or clowns. However they were also favoured by the nobility. Most notably, Queen Elizabeth I was a great admirer of the popular clown, Richard Tarlton. For the Bard himself, however, actor Robert Armin may have proved vital to the cultivation of his fools.[2]"

Frau Steingehirn

A schizophrenic killed the little girl and the others. As matt and Sara pointed out, it's young adults who experience the onset of the disease. My best friend's daughter died because of it and her younger son's life has been altered/destroyed because of it.

MayBee

Maybee, if you can have no constructive influence on the troll, your attempts only instigate further anti-social behavior on his part.

I know. But it helps me to get it out of my system. Sadly, MUGGS isn't the only person making such allegations.

Danube of Thought

Anyone recall what the tone was that got Mark David Chapman all fired up and fit to kill? What was Arthur Bremer hearing? Squeaky Fromme?

Surely it was the tone...

Ignatz

I think cleo and his ilk should be encouraged to continue their idiocies. The large majority of people of goodwill on all sides are sickened by their brand of vulturine, caluminous rhetoric, so I hope these nut jobs continue to use the crimes of another nut job to further reveal themselves for the wretches they are.

Feste

Surely it was the tone...(deaf idiot)

fixed it for ya, Effluent.

sbw

Maybee, I know. I just wrote our AP Bureau Chief and gave hime an emailful about leading with Dick Durbin opportunistic anti-Palin swill.

Extraneus

Imagine if they didn't get burned in 2000 by their gun-grabbing itch? What would we be hearing now?

These tragedies are just opportunities to the left. Always have been.

Ignatz

And BTW, we know the guy sounded probably mentally ill but let's wait until we know that for sure. Perhaps he is or perhaps he's merely drug addled. And if he is mentally ill we don't know if he's schizophrenic, bi polar, suffers from a personality disorder or any of a large range of other possibilities, most of which also begin to manifest in late teens/early adult.

narciso

It's too facile to say he was crazy, he was evil, a concept we can't quantify in our materialistic world, but it as real just the same.

DebinNC

Before the shellacking, Obama went on Univision and urged Hispanics to "punish our enemies"...the Republicans. If Gov. Brewer had been shot yesterday, would every article include speculation that Obama was to blame?

After Ft. Hood, did Obama send Gates to TX on the first plane? After the Times Square bombing attempt, did Obama send Incompetano to NYC? Other than a self-centered public relations stunt to show he's ostensibly in charge, why did Obama announce yesterday that he'd dispatched FBI Director Mueller to AZ on the first flight?

MarkO

The FBI says it has no reason to believe there is a continuing threat. So much for the phoney notion that vitriolic speech caused it. Down with that damned First Amendment. We need speech codes and bullying remediation.

No rational, seasoned observer could possibly hold the unprovable notion that Palin, Rush, or someone else in the national mix caused this. Let’s do facts: show me where anyone advocated the killing of these people. Otherwise, let it be. Ooops. A song title. Now, I’m to blame.

PaulY

The shooter hated the constitution and maybe the congresswomen was shot because she read the 1st Amendment a few days earlier. Who were the bozos who attacked the reading and inspired the shootings?

Jane the hostage taker

I do not consider you a political adversary. I consider you to be a fool.

Finally, something to make me smile.


I know. But it helps me to get it out of my system. Sadly, MUGGS isn't the only person making such allegations.

I Realized a couple of hours ago I was having the same problem because I was actually listening to the allegations. I hate to live in a bubble but the hate on the left is really intolerable.

Rick Ballard

"It's too facile to say he was crazy, he was evil, a concept we can't quantify in our materialistic world, but it as real just the same."

Hear, hear, Narciso. It's a form of infantilization to ascribe mental illness to an imperfect realization of Nietzsche's superman. The murdering scum acted in a manner perfectly consistent with a conscious rejection of all moral codes. As I said, he's needle ready and the sooner he's strapped to a gurney the better.

Charlie (Colorado)

You know, that troll would be more impressive if he knew how to spell "Cagliostro".

actually........Listening

"I was actually listening to the allegations"

A bridge really, too, too far.

Charlie (Colorado)

Rick, his behavior is also consistent with someone whose dog is bringing him messages from Sirius.

clarice

I'm not sure of that MarkO. I have had very successful moderate Dems tell me that Rush engaged in such hateful speech only to have them confess they never actually listened to him. They drew their conclusions from reports about what he said. (He's easy to misrepresent because most of what he does is satire.)

Calling all Assassins

"He's easy to misrepresent because most of what he does is satire.)"

Ya know, there's crazy, and then there's dementia.

MarkO

You are spot on, Clarice. With the Internet it is so easy to get the source material, but some refuse to do so and prefer to keep their faith. In this, they are not unlike Galileo and Pope Urban VIII.

Gmax

Its times like these when I really really miss Peter UK. His rapier wit allowed him to dispatch fools and the cuts were so quick and deep,it took time to realize they were bleeding!

The comments to this entry are closed.

Wilson/Plame