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January 09, 2011


Rob Crawford

You're a coward, 'cleo.

A scared little twerp, too afraid to even post under your own name.

Go cry yourself to sleep, scared of all the big bad right wingers.


Sara (Pal2Pal)

So DHS puts a target on American Renaissance in the same way Napolitano put a target on returning war vets?


I would be amazed if Loughner weren't a drug user.

Rob Crawford

I would be amazed if Loughner weren't a drug user.

I'll be amazed if there's no connection between him and 'cleo.


Haven't been watching Fox but want to know from Sue's comment:

The "hero" is agreeing with the sheriff. Except she went one step further and named right wing radio, republicans and television

So the gal who was shot and helped keep the shooter from re-loading is now saying this garbage?

Unbelievably horrible!

No Way

No connection to tea party

"-- Online, Loughner complained about the "second Constitution," a term legal scholars sometimes use to describe the post-Civil War amendments that ended slavery, extended the right to vote and required equal protection under the law. Its meaning to Loughner could not be clearly discerned.


She said she wasn't shot. But yes to everything else, glasater.


the news was breaking and Shep was on. It took all of what,3 or 4 minutes,and I was begging her to turn it off.

So sorry you had to endure that.

Ms">http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1345386/Gabrielle-Giffords-shot-Congresswoman-fighting-life-Arizona-gunman-identified-Jared-Loughner.html#ixzz1AaXrAB45">Ms Giffords’s father Spencer, 75, wept when asked if his daughter had any enemies. ‘Yeah,’ he said. ‘The whole Tea Party’ – the Right wing of the Republican Party.

This is from the Daily Mail. I never thought of the Tea Party as the right wing of the Republican Party. But that is what the MFM wants you to think.


Sue--Is she connected to the congresswoman?

Maybe she's in shock or something.

No Way

Hosea 8:7 "They sow the wind and reap the whirlwind"



WH tweet:

No officlal word yet - but WWR hears President Obama may travel to Arizona. Earlier today he cancelled Tuesday's New York trip.

Bet he goes! This is going to get even uglier.

Danube of Thought

Vick should go back to dog-fighting.


I would be amazed if Loughner weren't a drug user.

That's been out there for the past 24 hours or so. BTW, they say "pot" can worsen psychological problems:

"Today, there are over 30 published papers linking marijuana to schizophrenia or other mental disorders."


So now we get blaspheme eh No Way?

Rob Crawford

Shit. Sorry about the italics.


Obama is now pushing for internet ID so yeah Ann this is going to get really ugly.


Here is part of an email from one of his classmates - "We have a mentally unstable person in the class that scares the living crap out of me. He is one of those whose picture you see on the news, after he has come into class with an automatic weapon."

A responsible media would be looking into mental health issues, & how this guy stayed in class after the fiasco of the VA Tech shooter (known mental problems, teachers & students afraid of him,...).
This isn't about politics at all.

Captain Hate

I agree with anduril on the likelihood of Loughner being a pretty heavy pot user. Again I want to pose the question of why he has so many arrests and no criminal record.


A responsible media would be looking into mental health issues

Perhaps the Telegraph will cover that angle.


"A scared little twerp, too afraid to even post under your own name."

Maybe after you assholes free up some space on your 'people we need to shoot' list.


This is a great group and some really clever posts. It seems to me that the left wing attempt to put this on Palin and the Tea Party has fizzled. The Sheriff was carrying on about "bigotry," by which he means a desire for a secure border, but that clearly has nothing to do with this crime. They have to fantasize some ridiculous connection between Palin's year old "cross hairs" map and this nutjob and the more people think about it, the stupider that gets.


criminal record for purposes of purchasing a firearm = felony convictions.

Per NYT:

Loughner's misdemeanor drug charge was initially dismissed by Pima County's senior justice of the peace, Judge José Luis Castillo, Jr. The records suggest that Loughner paid a $20 fee and completed a court-ordered program for drug offenders.

In September, three years after his arrest, Loughner asked the court to set aside a supposed judgment against him. But Castillo denied the request, ruling that since the diversion program was completed and the case dismissed in 2007 there was no conviction verdict to set aside.

Frau zum Kotzen

With reporting like this: Der Spiegel's D.C. reporter Gregor Peter Schmitz has already written for the German public that there were "shots in the land of the preachers of hate." His entire article centers around the Tea Party. No mention is made of the shooter's background and leftist connections. Gabrielle Giffords' father was asked, according to Herr Dr. Schmitz, if his daughter had enemies. He responded, "The Tea Party."

Sara (Pal2Pal)

Janet: Did you see the interview Shep just did with one of Loughner's college teachers? He (the teacher) said he was so paranoid when he had to turn his back to write on the blackboard that he'd turn back quickly in case Loughner had a gun. He reported his constant disruptions and weird behavior to the counselors and dean and was told there wasn't much they could do to get him out of that class unless he actually did something violent.


NICS checks criminal history records to identify convicted felons and those convicted of misdemeanor domestic violence crimes.


--I have several and I have bought them from different venues - gun shops, military, shows, private treaty. What you say is what is written in the regs but is not necessarily the way it really works. Are you able to pass that background check?--

Umm, I'm an FFL and if it isn't working the way anduril described, the parties involved are committing a number of serious federal crimes.


Low moment in a long line of low media moments...

An interview a CNN reporter (don't remember which one) had with Facebook founder's sister. She was practically gushing about recounting the role of Facebook in covering the tragedy.

Even without the biased political angle the media is pushing here, their coverage has hit a new low.


What's with these people who don't use their narcisolators?


1. So Loughner is apparently the first person ever to have shot and killed a bunch of people due to overheated political rhetoric? Name me a single other case where this was true, ever.

It's complete and utter bullshit. There's always a more substantial reason than that, or no reason at all.

2. The Norwegian media have fallen all over themselves pushing the "Palin 'target' map made him do it"-angle, while none of them have noted that Loughner was a leftist. In other words, all is normal here in Norway.

In fact, the Norwegian state channel NRK even featured video from some kind of vigil for the victims where some dude was all like, "I have a message for Sarah Palin, you don't put peoples' name on a hit list, if you want to be a leader, you have to apologize for what you did, bro". I may have inserted that last word, but it was inferred. Haven't seen this on any American sites, so I'm kind of wondering where it came from or where it was.

The NRK news reader also said that SarahPAC's map was a "hate list" and NRK also misspelled Arizona as "Ariszona".

Really do love the media over here, they put the liberal blogs in the US to shame.


As far as I can see the discussion is pretty much over.
Cleo demonstrated convincibly with his 5:03 post that we have one Thomas Jefferson to thank for this tone of hatred.
Didn't he found the Democratic Party?


How quick they are to see a connection between Palin's year old map and this guy's actions. How do we know that he ever saw the map or that he gave two figs what Palin thought? The notion that he was so devoted to her that he waited a year to carry out some grotesque distorted understanding of her "target list" is pure fantasy. These people do not like Palin and they will grab at any excuse to smear her.


Check out this video from 1:25-1:46:

The douche bag at the vigil said to Palin:
"If you want to be a leader, you need to step up and take responsibility for what you did"

Yes, really. Watch it.


Hi Seixon.

Sara (Pal2Pal)

Judy Clarke, who defended the Unabomber, has been appointed as Loughner's attorney.


wingnuts say it's not a bullseye, but Sarah says otherwise.

Sarah Palin, Tweet Nov 2010: Remember months ago "bullseye" icon used 2 target the 20 Obamacare-lovin' incumbent seats?"

Captain Hate

Wow George, do you have any alternatives to NRK?

Danube of Thought

It's an object lesson in media trustworthiness around the globe.

We can expect some pretty robust efforts at the suppression of free speech to flow from this. It's what the left always tries when they're losing.

shit in my eyes

Yeah. It's not crosshairs. And she never said to 're-load' either.

More MSM lies.

Sara (Pal2Pal)

Clarke was also an attorney for Susan Smith.

Captain Hate

What does Jugears McFly think going to Arizona will do that is positive? Maybe he should extend his "moment of silence" until January 2013.

shit in my eyes

"We can expect some pretty robust efforts at the suppression of free speech to flow from this."

Uh huh. Like when they said you can't yell 'Fire!' in a crowded theater.

Evil suppression

Charlie (Colorado)

Sarah looks like she knows what she's doing.

Anduril, Sarah is shooting in a standup heavy rifle hunting position; Gifford's shooting in the military drill "offhand" position. You drop back so your elbow can rest on your side. I was never really comfortable in it, but my ROTC drill sergeant insisted it was better.

Odds on CAPT Kelly gave her some drill before she was on the range with the photographers.

Cleo is incontinent
. I never thought of the Tea Party as the right wing of the Republican Party. But that is what the MFM wants you to think.


That stuff always blows my mind. Imagine thinking belief in freedom, the constitution and fiscal sanity is the wing of anything. I always ignore it when I hear it, and I think I have to start fighting back.

Boy the battle really has been framed. The moonbat press is really trying to get its mojo back.


"What does Jugears McFly think going to Arizona will do that is positive?"

Maybe he'll take a bullhorn and find some rubble. Wingnuts really lap that shit up.

Charlie (Colorado)

People like this kid used to be institutionalized based on their obvious pathology.

Yeah. The problem was that people also got institutionalized for being pathologically inconvenient, like the Kennedy girl, or Ezra Pound, who was seditious, perhaps a traitor, but too embedded in the High Culture for FDR to have him arrested.

Rob Crawford

Someone really needs to let the authorities know about the lunatic working himself up into a lather right here in this thread.

It's scary, watching a psychotic break in real-time.


"I never thought of the Tea Party as the right wing of the Republican Party"

They're the 'wrong wing' of any party.

Conservatives have never done anything for this country. Their true love is for the multinationals who happen to rent space here.

Soylent Down Under

Bet he goes!

Me too. There are some lovely golf courses in and around Tucson and Phoenix.

Internationally this is not playing well for the left. Even in Workers' Paradise Melbourne. Had a conversation last night with a dude who basically said, "What is wrong with those people?", i.e. the Left.

I told him if we only knew we could fix it.


Hi, Seixon,Always nice to have you around

Jim Rhoads a/k/a vjnjagvet


Shouting fire in a crowded theater is not a problem if there is a fire giving rise to the misconception you are suggesting. FYI, Here is the quote of Holmes, J. in Schenck v. US,

The most stringent protection of free speech would not protect a man falsely shouting fire in a theater and causing a panic. [...] The question in every case is whether the words used are used in such circumstances and are of such a nature as to create a clear and present danger that they will bring about the substantive evils that Congress has a right to prevent.


You're assuming he was ever sane, Rob, 'facts not in evidence'


"It's scary"

Rob just got out of his NAMBLA meeting and he's feeling fragile.

Time for a group hug!


For the troll, a bit of hate for you:



--Internationally this is not playing well for the left.--

They ain't doing much better domestically.
Keep ranting cleo & comrades. The country is listening.

Cleo has 7 toes


We need to hear more from Oz. Are you having fun? Where else are you going?


One is reminded of this, in recent memory;


Cleo the stalker

WOW! Cleo even has You Too at the LUN. Who know he was so jealous of me?


It is however uncommonly kind of cleo to give Jane a link to her site. She just got some more traffic courtesy of the nutbar.

Jim Ryan

Loughner's motivations are unintelligible. He makes Manson look lucid.

This guy is so far gone that only the lefties blaming the Tea Party are sicker. Loughner's is an individual disease that strickens an individual only. But the social disease plaguing the left spreads from person to person and can take down a society; it has done so many times in the last 100 years. Part of the disease's MO is to make it hard for those who don't carry it to believe that it exists - just like the the devil's biggest lie.

The country is not polarized enough.


-- Cleo has 7 toes --

Per foot or in toetoe?

Danube of Thought

"Like when they said you can't yell 'Fire!' in a crowded theater."

The "they" was not the American left, it was a unanimous Supreme Court, you fool.

Try to imagine what sort of dunce would equate anything Palin, the Tea Party or anyone else has said with the "clear and present danger" (to use Holmes's term) standard set forth in Schenck v. U.S.

But it seems it's OK for the president to talk about bringing a gun if his enemies bring a knife.


Gifford's shooting in the military drill "offhand" position.

When shooting offhand (that is, from a standing position without a rest), start by standing with your body at about a 45 degree angle to the target, left shoulder forward and left foot forward, left foot pointed at the target. You feet should be approximately a shoulder's width apart. Do not be in an exaggerated stance. Stand upright, weight slightly forward on the balls of your feet--don't lean back. This balanced position will help you recover quickly from the recoil of the rifle:


Greetings, Soylent!

Danube of Thought

Glenn Reynold's, in tomorrow's WSJ:

To be clear, if you’re using this event to criticize the “rhetoric” of Mrs. Palin or others with whom you disagree, then you’re either: (a) asserting a connection between the “rhetoric” and the shooting, which based on evidence to date would be what we call a vicious lie; or (b) you’re not, in which case you’re just seizing on a tragedy to try to score unrelated political points, which is contemptible. Which is it?

I understand the desperation that Democrats must feel after taking a historic beating in the midterm elections and seeing the popularity of ObamaCare plummet while voters flee the party in droves. But those who purport to care about the health of our political community demonstrate precious little actual concern for America’s political well-being when they seize on any pretext, however flimsy, to call their political opponents accomplices to murder.

Where is the decency in that?


OY vey! this whole thread!


Thanks, DoT. That says it best.


"hard for those who don't carry it to believe that it exists"

People don't want to believe it. Sometimes it seems like too many are too far gone. The country can survive a few bubu cleo types but an incident like this should is a awakeup call when widespread delusional hair trigger hate flashes unrestrained.


Guess which graphic appears in the Sydney Morning Herald? They're obviously hating on the left.


Hi Soylent!

Please post as often as possible. I bet I'm not the only one who just grins with pride when I realize It's you.

Loved the kangaroo pics.

Cleo  is impotent

Glenn hits it on the nose.


Tim Blair reviews the coverage, with a focus
on the pure idiocy of the left;


Rob Crawford

Ah, so the anonymous coward troll once more resorts to libel.

Rob Crawford

Cleo is impotent

'cleo isn't even man enough to be impotent.

Hell, he doesn't even believe the shit he throws around. If he did, he wouldn't cower in fear and hide behind other people's names.


Andy get rid of the guns,we're proud of you.


The Daily Kos uses "target" and "bullseye" with regard to the named representative and no one in the media mentions it. Much more likely that this idiot read Kos than Palin's Facebook page.

The desperation of the left is all over this thread, including impersonation.

A crazy boy shot 20 people. He's unconnected with any group and even the idiot sheriff says he has no evidence that any speech motivated him.

There's nothing left.


"The country can survive a few bubu cleo types but an incident like this should is a awakeup call when widespread delusional hair trigger hate flashes unrestrained."

The country survived an insurrection of fully-armed right-wing assholes back in the 1860's, so I'm guessing we'll come through this in one piece.


That is excellent from Insty.

Charlie (Colorado)

The use of the hip as a support for the non-dominant elbow and the use of a sling are sometimes considered within the definition of 'offhand'.


Some competition shooters also cock their weak-side hip out and place their weak side elbow upon it.



I'd do more but I think 3 links is the limit.



If I teach a mentally incapable cleo for 20 consecutive minutes to replace an ad hominem or nonsensical statement with a real and cogent argument then the mentally incapable cleo speaks and pronounces the new real argument that's replacing an ad hominem or nonsensical statement in 20 consecutive minutes.

I teach a mentally incapable cleo for 20 consecutive minutes to replace an ad hominem or nonsensical statement with a real and cogent argument.

Thus, the mentally incapable cleo speaks and pronounces the real and cogent argument that replaces an adhominem or nonsensical statement in 20 consecutive minutes.

Simple, right? Don't let the grammar police get you. Are you there, listener?

Cleo  is impotent

Well I'm going to bed now, lest there be any doubt that Cleo has the smallest penis in the country.


There's an op-ed piece on the front page of this week's NYT "Week in Review" by Jeffrey Rosen entitled "If Scalia Had His Way." The article itself is predictably liberal, but doesn't say anything particularly incendiary about Scalia; Rosen basically argues that Scalia, unlike Thomas, is not a consistent and hardened originalist, and that originalism might actually support liberal results, blah, blah, blah.

However, the aricle is illustrated by a quaint little 10" by 12" graphic with the words "We the People" surrounded by: nooses, guns, leg irons, a guillotine, a scourge, the Gadsden snake, gravestones, and many mice (?!?).

Lest it was not clear before, the editorial staff of the NYT are certifiably insane.

Charlie (Colorado)

I should probably have said "in the 70's." Sometimes I forget how long ago that was.


Right now, based on the evidence available, including the shooter's rants against illiterate members of his Congressional District and his characterization of the Congresswoman as illiterate, I can see where the motive was the letter from Giffords that misspelled the shooter's name.

So far, at least to me, it is the only theory that draws from every part of the record.

And by this morning and by Monday at the latest, there is absolutely no telling the level of vitriol that this incident will have brought forth from the radical wing of the Democrat party and their friends in main stream media.
It is truly amazing how this tragic set of events has unleashed a political "Rorschach test" on our "unbiased" media

Sorry MarkO. I don't see Palin or TEA Party in your theory. Won't work.


--Some competition shooters also cock their weak-side hip out and place their weak side elbow upon it.--

Yeah, I've often used this stance, but she is clearly not doing it.
In her case she would have her left hip pushed out and her left elbow resting on it.
It also usually requires the gun be supported by the fingertips, none of which I'm even sure she could do given the weapon she has and her stature.


Yeah, Sue. Just the same I'm happy for Clarice that they've got the guy locked up.


I hear Muslim groups will be posting a map of Republican congressmen/women with their districts marked by a surveyor's symbol.

This will of course be defended by the people on this board.


Still ad hominem and nonsensical....

Danube of Thought

Chaco (or anybody else) shed any light on this?

Back in the 50's a couple of times as a kid I accompanied my father up to Camp Perry, Ohio where he went to shoot in the national matches. He only competed in the pistol, and only with the .45 (I don't know what other pistol events there were, if any).

Every single shooter shot in the classic one-hand stance, with his left hand either on his hip or in his pocket. I believe it certainly must have been the case that a two-handed stance was not allowed, and my guess is that those guys would have scoffed at it.

I'm also guessing that that can no longer possibly be the case, but I wonder when the change came. (Last time I saw it was over fifty years ago.)


Everyone loves surveyors.


Sue, I'll rework it now that Duke beat Maryland.

Isn't it odd that someone would know the number of his congressional district? But, if you read a letter from that district that misspells your name every day for two years, you'd be on top of it.

When one fires 31 rounds and hits 20 people, that's not a political assassination; that's undiluted, crazy anger. The kind that springs from hearing---what did he say, himself?-----bad grammar.


--I'm also guessing that that can no longer possibly be the case, but I wonder when the change came. (Last time I saw it was over fifty years ago.)--

I belive it is still a category of shooting at many competitions, DoT.

Here's a quick discussion.


How easy is it to make cleo jump?
Check his LUN.

Rob Crawford

I'm also guessing that that can no longer possibly be the case, but I wonder when the change came.

Jack Weaver came up with it in 1959, LUN.

Two-handed stances are stronger, more stable. I don't remember exactly if bulls-eye pistol shooting requires a round of one-handed shots or not.

Danube of Thought

"This will of course be defended by the people on this board."

Of course it will, you bigoted simpleton. It would be their right to do it. No one would seek to suppress it, and no one would be dumb enough to think anyone was going to get killed because of it.

Have you ever mustered up the courage to actually make an argument, and to defend it against critiques? If you have, I certainly don't recall it.

You are not as sick as this guy Loughner, but you are beyond a doubt a mentally troubled man.

Rob Crawford

Those family photos, 'cleo?

Danube of Thought

Thanks, Iggy. I don't recall knowing of any combat-shooting events at Camp Perry. But there's no doubt that it's much easier to hold 'em and squeeze 'em with two hands than with one.


Snow update. We've gotten about 2 inches so far in the last hour and a half. The interstates are at a crawl and some are practically shut down. There are several cars being pushed by folks on the interstate due to lack of traction. The side roads are pretty slick as some guy just tried to come down the hill to the cul de sac in our street and wound up in the woods at the bottom.

Guess my snow melt purchase didn't work like a talisman.

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