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February 13, 2011

Comments

Army of Davids

Welcome Back Kotter.

I do not think it is an exaggeration to say history is largely a history of inflation, usually inflations engineered by governments for the gain of governments.
Friedrich August von Hayek

clarice

IMO, He was just voting "present" again.

narciso

God how they embarrass themselves, if Zahedi
had been put in charge, instead of Reza Pahlevi, which is essentially what happened, would that have been better.

bgates

many of us believe that the US will have both allies and interests even after Barack has moved on.

We call those people "optimists".

I enjoyed the phrase "coverage that made it look as if". That will help the Times readers distinguish the public statements from Obama's envoy and his Secretary of State on Mubarak's indispensability vs the coverage (probably on Faux News) that was designed to make it look as if the Obama administration was treating Mubarak as indispensable.

bgates

Taylor Marsh says the article "looks a lot like a planted article from the White House".

I always identify the name brand vs the generic in taste tests, and I can spot fake boobs under a sweater from 75 yards away-
but I bow to anyone who can distinguish an article this admin would tell the Times to write from one they'd write on their own.

Extraneus

Hillary should hit him hard over this.

This is the moment... This is the time.

bgates

if Mr. Obama did not encourage the young people in the streets with forceful, even inspiring language, he would be accused of abandoning the ideals he expressed in his 2009 speech in Cairo, like he did later that same summer when he played golf while a similar uprising was crushed by a much worse dictatorship in Iran.

bgates

Speaking of fake boobs - He told Vice President Joseph R. Biden Jr. to take a hard line with his Egyptian counterpart

Will the famously proud Arabs swallow the insulting suggestion that their government has a counterpart to Joe Biden?

narciso

You're on a role, bgates, Ext, you are too trusting to think Hillary will strike back.

clarice

bgates is ON A ROLL this morning.

BobS

Wonderful post and thread. The young people who were the force behind the revolution are what we didn't realize existed in the middle east. They are educated, tech savvy and most speak more than one language. If they are given a free press, the MB won't have the easy path to power we fear. LUN

Extraneus

I just think she has to take her shot in 2012; otherwise it'll be too late for her. And she could probably air out some serious laundry over this Egypt thing. After all, Biden isn't a fake boob, and neither is Obama. Big naturals, both of them. Kerry, too.

Take of the gloves, Hillary. Let's see those claws.

hit and run

workers in the West Wing also worried that if Mr. Obama did not encourage the young people in the streets with forceful, even inspiring language, he would be accused of abandoning the ideals he expressed in his 2009 speech in Cairo.

The fierce moral urgency of worrying about being accused.

hit and run

The arc of history is long,but the coward always tries to bend it toward avoiding being personally accused.

Janet

The "worried about Obama's credibility" group -

"Inside the White House, the same aides who during his campaign pushed Mr. Obama to challenge the assumptions of the foreign policy establishment were now arguing that his failure to side with the protesters could be remembered with bitterness by a rising generation.

Those onetime campaign aides included Denis McDonough, the sharp-tongued deputy national security adviser; Benjamin J. Rhodes, who wrote the president’s seminal address to the Islamic world in Cairo in June 2009; and Samantha Power, the outspoken Pulitzer Prize winner and human rights advocate who was once drummed out of the campaign for describing Mrs. Clinton as a monster." (bold mine)

Like PaulL pointed out on the other thread..."So Samantha Power still steers Ibama and she's always been on the wrong side on everything."

BobS

Wael Gohnim tweets that he's been in a meeting with two generals from the higher council of the armed forces. This reveals the legitimacy of the protest movement he helped spawn on facebook.

hit and run

For I am absolutely certain that generations from now, we will be able to look back and tell our children that this was the moment when we . . . avoided being accused of abandoning our ideals.

Carol.Herman

Hillary could resign.

That would probably be her best prop. Or card. Because if she can't see herself as leaving, the bamster pushes her out. At least because she'd push the entire front end of the bus ... UP. Where's the benefits to keeping Hillary?

We'll get to see what Daley's made of.

MarkO

We were going to write "argue" rather than "claim," but we think that may be too generous. Neither article is a serious piece of legal analysis, because both professors simply refuse to take seriously the legal arguments on the other side, even after those arguments have been accepted by two federal trial judges. Rather than grapple with a novel legal issue in a serious scholarly way, it's as if they stick their fingers in their ears and sing "Law law law law law."

I am certain that someone with insight and understanding can explain to me exactly what is different for the Egyptian people today from a week ago. New names? The military ran the country last week and it still does. There are promises of reform in the future, which there have always been. Wasn’t there to be an election in September anyway?

Every time Mubarak spoke, Obama showed up 5 minutes later, as if to make it clear that Obama had forced action and was there to take credit. Calling it amateur would be generous.

I would not be one to gloat over this win for “freedom” just yet. At best it was a coup; at worst it was really nothing. And, to be sure, “really nothing” is something Obama understands.

MarkO

Wow, don't know where the first paragraph came from. Eeek. Sorry. It is well written, however. I should take credit. Yes. That's it.

MarkO

And, I see this from Althouse:


So, at this point, it's pretty much a military coup, making references to an entity called "the opposition," dissolving parliament, and suspending the constitution. I'm just trying to understand what's going on and why we should feel so much confidence about it.

hit and run

"I don’t oppose all attempts to overthrow an authoritarian government. And I know that in this crowd today, there is no shortage of patriots, or of patriotism. What I am opposed to is a dumb attempts to overthrow an authoritarian government. What I am opposed to is a rash attempt to overthrow an authoritarian government. What I am opposed to is the cynical attempt by those who say that Manuel Zelaya is not the rightful president of Honduras.

"What I am opposed to is the attempt by political hacks to distract us from a rise in the uninsured, a rise in the poverty rate, a drop in the median income — to distract us from corporate scandals and a stock market that has just gone through the worst month since the Great Depression by trying to play up the protests in Iran in 2009 -- a dumb attempt to overthrow an authoritarian government.

"That’s what I’m opposed to. A dumb attempt to overthrow an authoritarian government. A rash attempt to overthrow an authoritarian government. An attempt to overthrow a authoritarian government based not on reason but on passion, not on principle but on politics.

"And now that I see that Mubarak has stepped down, thanks in no small part to my forceful, even inspiring language given in Cairo, this here is a smart attempt to overthrow an authoritarian government. Well, for now anyway. We'll have to see how it plays out."
--stuff Obama (almost) said

narciso

Ou Harvard and Oxbridgean pundit, finds the 'light at the end of the tunnel;

1.) Stop treating Islamic fundamentalism as a bogyman and allowing it to drive American foreign policy. American paranoia about Islamism has done as much damage as Muslim fundamentalism itself.

In Somalia, it led the U.S. to wink at a 2006 Ethiopian invasion that was catastrophic for Somalis and resulted in more Islamic extremism there. And in Egypt, our foreboding about Islamism paralyzed us and put us on the wrong side of history.

hit and run

MarkO:
Wow, don't know where the first paragraph came from. Eeek. Sorry. It is well written, however. I should take credit. Yes. That's it.

If my eyes aren't deceiving me,that's Taranto.

RichatUF

BobS-

The Iranians were middle class, tech savvy, and worldly too. And the MB at its senior levels are upper middle class, tech savvy, and worldly.

caro

One of my favorites.Claire Berlinski writes

Flownover [commenter at Ricochet] asked me for my opinion about what the Turkish military is thinking today. I expect he meant, "What they're thinking about Egypt," but I have to imagine their minds are on more immediate matters: The courts have just issued orders to lock up 162 of their officers:

Another nugget is a comment by JMH in the linked VDH blog.

Captain Hate

I am certain that someone with insight and understanding can explain to me exactly what is different for the Egyptian people today from a week ago.

A week ago the military hadn't suspended the constitution and dissolved Parliament.

Lebanon

Just ask us how much Obama supports Democratic movements in the ME!
Have you heard him even mention us lately?

Chubby

((The Iranians were middle class, tech savvy, and worldly too. And the MB at its senior levels are upper middle class, tech savvy, and worldly.))

I would not be surprised to learn that there is an Islamist faction in the military as well.

((A leaked U.S. State Department cable posted on the website Wikileaks, which cited "academics and civilian analysts," called Tantawi "Mubarak's poodle" and said mid-level officers in the Egyptian military were infuriated by his incompetence and blind loyalty to Mubarak. Tantawi has served Egypt's military for years and fought alongside the U.S. and its allies in the 1991 Gulf War.))

http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/egypt-trades-torture-supervisor-mubaraks-poodle/story?id=12895439

RichatUF

But doesn't Hezbollah provide health care, schools, and day care?

BobS

Rich: Iran 1979 does not equal Egypt 2011. Nor does the Iranian Guard equal the Egyptian Army which has significant ties to ours. It is this relationship that maintained the constant back channel between the US and Egypt.

Janet

Caro, Thanks for noting the JMH comment. Wow!

glasater

So half the population of Egypt is under the age of 25 and rebelled against the Mubarak regime--and won.

Kind of reminds me of the late sixties in the US when there was rebellion with the boomers.

BobS

captian hate: (still my favorite handle of all time, btw) While the cabinet is still in place, a couple have been deatained such as the Minister of Info who mant believe unleashed the thugs on the protesters.

Ignatz

--If they are given a free press, the MB won't have the easy path to power we fear.--

Do the beggars in Cairo ride horses?

MarkO

Hit, you are correct, sir. Now, how did I put it in my post? Oh, well.

MayBee

hit- I love you.

Danube of Thought

It was Taranto discussing the near-simultaneous columns published by Laurence Tribe and some other hack whose name now escapes me.

I would feel a lot more hopeful about Egypt's future if I didn't keep seeing these polls about how huge majorities of them feel on some pretty fundamental issues. Heaven help them.

narciso

That would have been Akhil Amar, Danube, those poll numbers are disheartening, one hopes they are unrepresentative as the results
done by CBS/New York Times

Ranger

I posted this in the last thread, but I'll repost it here in case people missed it...

From the NYT via Instapundit:

CAIRO — The Egyptian military, for the first time publicly laying out the terms of its rule, said Sunday that it had dissolved the country’s parliament, suspended its constitution and called for elections in six months, according to a statement by the Supreme Council of the Armed Forces read on state television.

...

The military did reiterate though that the civilian cabinet would remain in place over the next six months.

So, how does one effect "changes to the consitution" without a constitutional process for ammendments?

And it is interesting to note that the "civilian cabinet" is made up almost entirely of retired generals.

Oh, and elections in six months means September, exactly when the original elections were schedualed.

So its looking like Mubarak's final political act was to jump on the grenade of the demonstrations for the military regime. By sacrificing himself, Mubarak has preserved the military's hold on power.


bgates

Heaven help them.

Christianist. Identity Christianist, even. You're probably one of those clinging to the myth of the importance of military power in the Middle East, even after the people's revolt in Egypt delivered that country into the hands of the Egyptian...erm...Egypt's most respected institution.

BobS

ignatz: Nope. Camels. Those images of Mubarak's thugs charging protesters on camels was hilarious.

RichatUF

Ignatz-

Camels.

BobS-

The MB has been around since the 20's, includes a large percentage of the Egyptian professional class, members assassinated Sadat, and they have been a key cog of international terrorism for decades. Some starry-eyed internationalists and twitter mobs aren't going to dislocate them with a few facebook pages because the MB won't hesitate to shoot them. Agreed though that Egypt 11 isn't Iran 79.

Captain Hate

Thanks BobS; you've been covering this very well btw.

vishnu verheer

the White House, State Department, intelligence apparatus, and and other organs of government were caught flatfooted and then were unable to operate in a coherent manner with multiple priorities and factors.

So in the end they dithered and looked like fools. If there was still a Soviet propaganda machine, this would have been trumpeted all over the world. Now foreign leaders keep their own counsel and the world sees America as a tragic farce.

clarice

Here--to save everyone time--is jmh's comment on riccochet:

It's really much simpler. Obama doesn't have a system; he just relies on those who do, from mentors to wife. He's found them in lefty enclaves where he came of age and cut his political teeth. It’s about comfort zones, not core beliefs.
You only need to know two other things:

1) Obama is a floater. He scopes out a room and becomes whatever folks want him to be. After his "bitter clinger" remarks, when he discovered folks outside the room were listening, he stuck to a single, “inspirational” script rooted in biography. His speeches are nearly interchangeable today.

2) He was once quite frank about the key to success as a "black" man in a white world: make yourself non-threatening. He may play badass in private, but his public attacks are usually oblique. On the international stage, where allies can be ignored, he’s still trying to figure out how to tell the other players what they want to hear, without suffering in domestic polls. He's floundering because no one can actually tell him what that is.

Ignatz

I have a lot of respect for Reuel Mark Gerecht at the WS but I think he's considerably too sanguine on the prospects of consanguinity of Islam and liberal democracy.

BobS

Thanks, C Hate!

RichUF: It's irresponsible to ignore or underestimate the MB - or be taken in by their propoganda. However, they have always been enabled in the Arab world be a complaint press. The Egyptian state media has essentially been acting as Bahgdad Bob. During the protests many of the commentators and reporters publically resigned. Things will not be the same under the army.

Porchlight

If I were an energetic White House staffer trying to win Obama to my side, would I say (a) "this decision is in America's best interests", or (b) "this decision wil make you look good"?

Please. The phrase "America's best interests" does not pass the lips of anyone in the White House from one year to the next.

Ignatz

--ignatz: Nope. Camels. Those images of Mubarak's thugs charging protesters on camels was hilarious.--

Heh. Good point, Bob and Rich.
But the Arabians do have some experience with horses, even if like an unfortunate number of their namesakes they are a bit short in the spine department.

glasater

I don't know how to take David Horowitz's opinion. On one hand his credentials appear pretty solid but in the link below--it's of his speech at CPAC--he goes after Grover Norquist for making nice with some Islamists. But he mainly goes after MB.

PD

But he [Obama] apparently feared that saying so openly would reveal that the United States was not in total sync with the protesters, and was indeed putting its strategic interests first.

Yeah, that'd be obnoxious, the President of the United States putting the interests of the United States first.

Porchlight

That was an awesome comment by JMH. Thanks clarice for reposting.

BTW I notice that Peter Robinson and VDH, both former NRO contributors, are blogging at Richochet. Are they still at NRO as well? I confess I do not read The Corner very often these days.

Danube of Thought

"So, how does one effect 'changes to the consitution' without a constitutional process for ammendments?"

A group of remarkable dead white males managed to do it in the late 18th century, transitioning from the Articles of Confederation to a new constitution by means of a convention in which they exceeded the authority granted them by the Articles.

But this is not something we can expect to see with any great regularity, and I wouldn't think that 2011 Cairo is a fertile breeding ground for such a miracle. I sure do wish them well.

bgates

"And this helps explain, perhaps, my relationship with Hosni Mubarak. As imperfect as he may be, he has been like family to me. He strengthened my position in Africa, gave me a platform to address the Muslim world in Cairo, and laughed with me when we threw nickels at Rahm. Not once in my conversations with him have I heard him talk about the Muslim Brotherhood in non-secular terms, or treat Copts or Jews with whom he interacted with anything but courtesy and respect. He contains within him the contradictions – the good and the bad – of the community that he has served diligently for so many years.

I can no more disown him than I can disown the Muslim community. I can no more disown him than I can the nation of Israel – a nation that helped elect me, a nation whose sacrifices I have demanded again and again, but a nation which is responsible for all the hatred and violence in the Middle East, and which on more than one occasion has embodied racial or ethnic stereotypes that made me cringe."
-stuff Obama (might as well have) said

RichatUF

Ignatz-

I've got a picture of a camel on the Giza plateau. Don't let them lick you...yuck.

BobS-

I want to revise-and-extend my remarks. Facebook and Twitter are the sprint and the elections are the marathon. Ranger's post above: the constitution suspended and the "civilian" cabinet in the hands of retired military points to a situation closer to Algeria 1991.

The youth movement will be squeezed between the 2 power centers of Egypt-the military and Islamists-and neither will provide the jobs to get the armies of unemployed, both educated and uneducated, off the streets. Neither will bring down the price of wheat. Nor will they establish an environment where Egypt's largest industry (travel and tourism) can flourish.

rse

Porch-

VDH still does.Robinson does the Uncommon Knowledge interviews.

There's a new City Journal article on Vagueness in language. You would enjoy. Will try to find before going back under my rock.

PaulL

I hate to quote myself but then who else is going to? What I posted on March 07, 2008:

****
The BBC interview with Samantha Power was wonderful. I sure wish there were one American TV host who could interview someone with that skill.

Samantha revealed way too much about what Obama would really do and really thinks. I think that's why she was fired, not for the Hillary is a monster comment.

My favorite part of the interview was when Samantha compared Obama to . . . wait for it . . . Cicero. LOL!

****

If anyone needs a memory jog, Power said among other things to the BBC interviewer back in early '08 that President Obama would not be bound by things Candidate Obama said.

Why would Ibama have cared that Power called Hillary a monster? She is.

clarice

worth repeating:

RichUFThe youth movement will be squeezed between the 2 power centers of Egypt-the military and Islamists-and neither will provide the jobs to get the armies of unemployed, both educated and uneducated, off the streets. Neither will bring down the price of wheat. Nor will they establish an environment where Egypt's largest industry (travel and tourism) can flourish.

clarice

BTW, I understand the largest block of tourists in Egypt has been Israeli.

maryrose

clarice-
Totally that Obama is a "floater" and as usual is voting "present'
I am surprised that Hillary is allowing herself to look out of touch and invisible and that she has a better handle on all this than Barack.I also agree with bgates that Obama feels this urgency to comment on every 5 seconds of this struggle. By doing so he just diminishes himself and looks like the inept fool that he is. Also I don't need Oprah telling me to respect a marxist socialist. Where was she when Bush bashing was at its height? I don't agree with obama'a policies and I don't care for him personally. He hasn't shown enough respect for the american people or our allies. When he does that to my satisfaction then maybe I'll give him the time of day. Until then, pfeh!

caro

Porch,I think NR and Ricochet have a sharing relationship. The Ricochet podcasts,which are terrific, are cross-posted on NRO.

Porchlight

Thanks rse and caro - it does seem NRO and Ricochet are connected somehow.

There's a new City Journal article on Vagueness in language. You would enjoy. Will try to find before going back under my rock.

I would love to see this. And please don't go back under your rock. :)

caro

Porch,on the 2008 after election cruise there were some night owl panels that had some of the Ricochet people on stage. I imagine that the good chemistry they had may have been the beginnings of the Ricochet concept. Lileks is now writing for both,too.

BobS

rich: your argument assumes there are three seperate areas of self-interest. The Egyptian Army consists of conscripts who more identify with the protesters than they do their commanders. The later are aware of this. Suleiman,whom is held in high regard of the Army high council, opposses the MB.

Chubby

(( rich: your argument assumes there are three seperate areas of self-interest. The Egyptian Army consists of conscripts who more identify with the protesters than they do their commanders. The later are aware of this. Suleiman,whom is held in high regard of the Army high council, opposses the MB.))

if the conscripts are more in tune with the protestors than their commanders, and the commanders oppose the MB, what does this say about the protestors?

jimmyk

I would not be one to gloat over this win for “freedom” just yet.

As a starting point, how many "populist" uprisings that have successfully brought down a government have resulted in more freedom and democracy versus less? Well, there was the American Revolution, and some of the eastern bloc countries with the fall of the USSR. These are the exceptions, and they were all in relatively prosperous and educated countries. I don't see any George Washington (or even Boris Yeltsin) in Egypt.

RichatUF

BobS-

Why would the conscripts of the Egyptian army identify with educated youth elite that have access to facebook and twitter?

The army is going to go back to more central planning and price controls and the disorder is going to drive away tourists. More hungry mouths and more unemployed going into the elections-who is going to exploit that the best-the technocratic youth elite,those on facebook and twitter, that had instituted the recent economic reforms that the army of unemployed in part blame for high wheat prices or the MB that can promise paradise from the mosque to satiate some of the hunger and thirst?

Danube of Thought

You got it, JimmyK. We got Madison, Jefferson, and Hamilton; the eminently civilized and enlightened French got Robespierre. It is too bad there are some Americans who don't know how fortunate we were and are.

clarice

And we had a big, underpopulated country rich with resources while Egypt has a big population that is ill educated and desperate ; few resources and a long history of corruption and
graft which make economic development exceedingly difficult.

BobS

The Army's conscripts come from all walks of Egypt. Mandatory service takes young people from every class. Recall that they soldiers refused to fire on the protesters and in fact did their utmost to protect them from the Mubarak hired thugs - all for $8 a day, btw.

"Educated youth elite" is an unfair and narrow characrerization of the entire group of protesters which included both Muslims and Coptic Chritians. Furthermore, the group illustrates that there is a considerable part of Egyptian society that is seperate from the group think of the MB.

Chubby

((they soldiers refused to fire on the protesters))

I thought they were ordered not to.

RichatUF

jimmyk-

I'd say that South Korea got it mostly right.

BobS-

From the Newsweek write up on Gohnim:

In little more than a year, he was promoted to head of marketing for the Middle East and North Africa, a position based in Dubai, where he and his family moved into a house in one of the city’s affluent suburbs.

Ghonim and Wahab met electronically last spring, after Ghonim volunteered to run the Facebook fan page of Mohamed ElBaradei, the Egyptian Nobel Prize winner who had emerged as a key opposition leader; Wahab offered to help with PR.

rse

Here's the link to this fun Vagueness story in the LUN.

It's the 1985 part that gets me. If that's the sea change, I hope there are employment opportunities now for chewing gum.

Or "I'd like to make my living as an IMer or monitoring facebook for you. Oh no, I cannot live on minimum wage. Everyone always told me I was special and that was enough."

Am on an advisory panel and everytime we meet I recognize some other aspect being hidden and off researching I go.

Last week I barely knew who Karl Popper was and now I'm writing myself notes that what I'm reading is "holism" and where to get the refutation. I think I am too old for this much new learning.

Ranger

Well, the Army only protected protestors inside specific safe zones. Also, the Army only began directly protecting protesters after first pulling back from the square and giving the Mubarak loyalists a night of free fire into the square. The Army returned to the square after it was clear the Mubarak loyalists would not be able to dislodge the protestors by force.

Rob Crawford

Nor does the Iranian Guard equal the Egyptian Army which has significant ties to ours. It is this relationship that maintained the constant back channel between the US and Egypt.

You realize the Iranian military of 1979 was as US-trained and equipped as the Egyptian military of 2011, right?

The Egyptian Army consists of conscripts who more identify with the protesters than they do their commanders.

And those conscripts have no say in what the army does. Sure, a unit primarily raised from Cairo won't fire on Cairo protesters. But all such armies maintain units from the hinterlands for just such a purpose.

Rob Crawford

The army is going to go back to more central planning and price controls and the disorder is going to drive away tourists.

Dunno. The attacks on tourists always came from the Muslim Brotherhood types. If the military can keep them from indulging their baser instincts, tourists will be safe, and economic disaster inside Egypt will only bring more tourists in, as foreign cash will buy more.

Boatbuilder

"...I can spot fake boobs under a sweater from 75 yards away."

Bgates, in addition to your many other fine qualities, your ability to maintain focus in the face of such distractions is what makes you an inspiration to us all.

RichatUF

BobS-

That the army didn't fire on the protestors is a testament to their training. It helped that it was armor forces in Cairo and not the infantry and that the army (and military generally) was looking longer term. The youth movement is a narrow coalition and once it goes bad those that have the means to leave will. The protestors managed to displace an elderly and dieing man and to cheer that the military has suspended the constitution, dissolved the parliment (such as it is), and military control of the civilian cabinet.

Danube of Thought

Thanks very much for that link, rse. My wife and I discuss that phenomenon regularly as it relates to certain relatives.

RichatUF

rse-

Let's see if this works. A book that was published in 1982, Popper and After, is a critique of Popper's and his derivatives work.

BobS

Rich: Thank you for the Newsweek tip on Ghonim. Al Baradei is not someone the west can entirely trust and his early allignment with the MB is troubling. Ghonim's own association with Al Baradei will come under a level of scrutiny as it is. Not all the protesters were fans of Al Baradei.

Rnager: I don't agree with your assessment as it does not correspond with the tweets I followed on the one day the Mubarak thugs has their one day shelf life.

Rob: The 1979 version of the Iranian Army was not aware - nor was anyone else - on the perversion of Islam that he intended to implement. The fact that both armies being trained and equipped bu the US is where similarities end.

All: My own current opinions in no way diminish the concern all parties should have regarding the MB. Nor can anyone have any illusions about the many generations of irrational hatred that Arabs everywhere have for Israel. The MB have proved themselves to be cunning masters of propoganda that our terribly naive press give far too much weight to out of devotion to PC. An educated class of Egyptians, we can only pray, sees through their BS.

Janet

Obama doesn't have a system; he just relies on those who do,

Thinking about JM Hanes comment & the NYT article listing Obama's one time campaign aides (apparently NOT just one time!) still steering him...led me to this Am Thinker article from 2008 that talks about Samantha Power, Zbigniew Brzezinski, and Robert Malley.
That article linked to another Am. Thinker article on Robert Malley & the International Crisis Group.
Robert Malley has a piece in the WaPo today.

I don't know what it all means, but a lot of players are out at once & a common thread is that they hate Israel.

Frau Fragezeichen

In 2001, Samantha Power (Mrs. Cass Sunstein and mother of little Declan Power-Sunstein) took the Clinton administration to task for ignoring the genocide civil war in Rwanda. Using 10 pages in the Atlantic Monthly, she had nothing good to say about the cast of Bent Willie's characters--Richard Clarke ("Do we have an exit strategy?", Susan Rice ("Will this impact the coming election?") and whoever said, "We should not use the word genocide." Now she is part of That Old Retread Gang of Mine in the WH.

narciso

Of course, Serwer has to pop up like a drunk groundhog, and get it wrong, in the LUN

jimmyk

I'd say that South Korea got it mostly right.

Rich, what in SK history do you have in mind? 1960? Park did well with the economy, but I'm not sure about the freedom and democracy end of it, though eventually it got better.

jimmyk

You got it, JimmyK. We got Madison, Jefferson, and Hamilton; the eminently civilized and enlightened French got Robespierre.

Yep. Shows that being civilized and enlightened may be necessary but not sufficient for moving away from tyranny. (Germany 1933 being the other obvious case.) We were amazingly lucky.

Ranger

BobS,

The tweets you were following were most likely from the square itself. AJ had a very good vantage point and their camera's clearly picked up the Army pulling back from the square to new positions just before the fire on the square began.

Also, the Army made no attempt to stop pro-Mubarak groups from grabbing and taking people way within sight of the Army check points around the square. Nor did the Army make any attempt to protect demonstrations outside very specific location. There were many reports of anti-government demonstrators being attacked around Cairo for days after the Army began protecting the square.

I think you are romaticising the role of the army in all of this. If anything, what has happened is a "counter-revolution", where the efforts to open up Egyptian politics to elements of society outside the Army have been completely reversed.

The Cabinet that will run Egypt for the next six months is the same cabinet of retired generals that Mubarak himself put in place two weeks ago.

RichatUF

jimmyk-

The 3-8-6 movement and political liberalization of the late 1980's and early 1990's.

Carol.Herman

I don't believe a word of what I read in the papers!

For Tahrir Square, I anticipate choreographed traffic jams. And, better security for the Cairo museum. I expect, as time passes, people will miss Mubarak being in Cairo. And, there will be nice crowds coming to see him at his resort palace. Where he will buy time with "quiet."

Hillary may be fired, ahead? Where's the downside to Obama? He doesn't like her! He doesn't like her husband! And, she's no longer in position to claim she's got women voters all sewn up.

Will the tourists return to Egypt? Well, I have no idea! If people weren't spooked enough over airline "pat downs" ... they've got to think "what if?" So, I'll bet tourism (a $10 billion industry to Egypt, has suffered some sort of calamity. But what? I dunno.)

vishnu verheer

South Korea was a pretty brutal dictatorship for most of its history. Make money, don't talk politics, and keep quiet were the rules.

Once Park left the stage, the following rulers allowed greater and greater levels of dissent but it still got ugly. Chun, if you recall, was sentenced to death for responsibility for the massacre in Gwangju in 1980.

Roh Tae Woo was the implementer of real democracy and was arrested and sentenced to 17 years hard time for his troubles. I got to meet him at the Seoul Olympics in '88. Seemed like a nice enough dictator.

I was in Korea a lot during those times and it was a little spooky. It had the trappings of a modern society, but the Koreans are crazy intense.

Extraneus

the perversion of Islam

What do you mean by this term, BobS? I've seen it many times before, but never have I known it to be used except to describe the reversion to true, actual, by-the-book, Islam -- stonings, polygamy, lashings, choppings and all. Do you mean something different?

Captain Hate

Serwer has to pop up like a drunk groundhog, and get it wrong

Out of curiosity I had to check that out; it's like Ezra has a twin.

BobS

Extraneus: yes to your "reversion to true, actual, by-the-book, Islam -- stonings, polygamy, lashings, choppings and all. Do you mean something different?"
Khomeni never let his intentions be known.

Ranger: You may prove correct, but to be so the vast population of Egyptians will have to be wrong as well.

Army Communique#5 - LUN may serve as a map.

matt

This from a friend of mine on the ground in Afghanistan.

" I can see from the comments on news stories that anytime Karzai mentions the need to funnel money through his government a majority of my fellow citizen are convinced the money will just disappear. Jeeez that would be weird given how transparent the flow of aid money is now. I’m no fan of the current government in Kabul but if someone could explain to me the fundamental difference between giving a member of the Afghan ruling elite a suitcase full of money to get something done or paying Tom Daschle’s wife a few million bucks to get a favorable ruling from the USG I’d love to hear it. From Hillary Clinton’s cattle futures swindle to our current treasury secretary dictating to the IRS when and how much he would pay in back taxes (until he was appointed to his present post) American politicians are as corrupt as Afghan politicians but more sophisticated. The only other difference is that America has the largest economy in the world allowing our political class to enrich themselves and their families without killing economic growth."

A smart guy and this particular post is excellent. I urge you to read the whole thing. LUN

Army of Davids

inflation is not kind to bonds.

inflation forces are growing globally.

global bond bubble? I think so...and the repercussions will be serious.

Frau Fragezeichen

"An educated class of Egypt..."
Is this the 10% not imposing female genital mutilation on their daughters?

I remember that the 9/11 group were from educated homes. If this was a facebook/twitter revolution, is it another of the Soros+Code Pinko and ElBaradei+U.N. accomplishments?

Neo

I still puzzled. Maybe somebody can give me some explanation to square the line ...

even as Mr. Obama was demanding that change in Egypt begin right away
.. with ...
So let me be clear: no system of government can or should be imposed upon one nation by any other. -- Cairo 2009

Tell me he "grew in the office" or some other nonsense that will keep me from believing that he will say anything to make himself look good.

Janet

I remember that the 9/11 group were from educated homes.

Yeah,...what hath the supposedly well educated wrought here in America? Were they educated in our "hate the West" universities or their own?

MayBee

Oh, Neo. Not to mention his campaign talk about no nation being above another. But for some mysterious reason, when he is President of the United States, our nation has every right to demand another country's leader step down.

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Wilson/Plame