Sunday Morning Open Thread

Go, Huskies!

Comments

[clarice]

Late GOOD MORNING JOM!!!!!!!!

[Melinda Romanoff]

Good morning World!

Tried on the new microbrewery last night, it fit too well.

Bourbon Stout, mmmmm.

[jorgxmckie]

Go, Butler. I always pull for the underdog.

[Gmax]

Isn't Yukon in the Canadian Northwest? I am confused, why is Yukon playing in the NCAA finals?

[Janet]

This is kinda interesting - Rosie O'Donnell's teenage son interested in the military.

[pagar]

From the "To the shores of Benghazi" post:
Threadkiller asks--"are you OK with a fraudulent quote filed with the court?"
His question was asked in a different context,but in the forecloser fraud fraud mess, we appear to have some judges awakening to the fact that almost everything the banks/servicers are being to the courts are lies and fraudulent documents.

"Angry and exasperated by faulty foreclosure documents, judges throughout Florida are hitting back by increasingly dismissing cases and boldly accusing lawyers of "fraud upon the court."

"From an April 7 hearing in Pinellas County. Judge Anthony Rondolino set aside his prior ruling awarding summary judgment to the bank.

Rondolino: 'I don’t have any confidence that any of the documents the court’s receiving on these mass foreclosures are valid.’"

The lists of lawyers who Florida judges have NO confidence in grows by thousands every week.

[Gmax]

Maybe the answer is that foreclosure does not need to be handled in a courtroom? Lots of states use a nonjudicial process, and it works just fine.

Never forget for all of this supposed "fraud" the facts of the matter are the homeowner/debtor has stopped paying on his mortgage.

If the freeloaders win in any significant number, it will make the cost of mortgages infinity higher, and may make it much more difficult to get a mortgage at all in judicial foreclosure states. The laws of unintended consequences and all...

[Gmax]

infinity = infinitely

I think the software filled out the word for me on this one! Sheesh

[Danube of Thought]

If the freeloaders win in any significant number

I think the freeloaders have got a pretty good start on taking this country over.

[PaulL]

According to Rasmussen, blacks give Ibama positive ratings on handling the economy at 88/11.

[The Death of Tea before you and me]

As the Congressional Republicans try first to load their spending cuts on those who can afford it least (heating oil subsidies for the elderly and Poor Head Start children) they are exempting BIG OIL from cuts as they approach the drop-dead budget deadline.

FOX;

WALLACE: A lot of Democrats that are already saying, even before they’ve seen your budget, that you do all of this balancing of the budget on the spending side, and unlike the President’s debt commission, you don’t do it on the revenue side. Do you eliminate tax breaks? Do you bring in new revenue by eliminating, for instance, tax breaks for oil companies?

RYAN: We don’t have a tax problem. The problem with our deficit is not because Americans are taxed too little. The problem with our deficit is because Washington spends too much money. … So we’re not going to down the path of raising taxes on people. […]

WALLACE: But for instance, you will not eliminate tax breaks for Big Oil and Gas?

RYAN: Those are the kinds of details that we’ll come out later with, that the Ways and Means Committee will work on. We’re not going to go into the little details of which tax expenditure goes and which tax expenditure stays.

Sometimes when people say good-bye, they say it with the slang; "Later!"

[pagar]

IMO, whether it is a nonjudicial or judicial foreclose state, the underlying fraud is the problem. Get rid of the fraud caused by the banks /servicers and the process would work like it supposed to.

Why would any law abiding American condone such actions?

Firm is under investigation for alleged fraudulent signatures on deeds"

LUN

Bonus question-- What would a deed with a fraudulent signature be worth?

http://www.msfraud.org/law/lounge/clear-title-may-not-derive-from-a-fraud.pdf

"Clear Title may not derive from a fraud"

[Frau Krankenkasse]

"Big Oil and Gas" do not frighten me. Big Union take over of all government threatens my country.

Carp with adjectives is still carp. During my years as a teacher in a low economic part of town, I did not see that Head Start children were poor. The results of the program, though, were poor. Some parents were glad to have children taken off their hands earlier than kindergarten does.

[Frau Krankenkasse]

To the public it was announced, that ObamaCare was to be fine-tuned "later" and for the creators of the monster, that meant never.

[MarkO]

I loved this tweet from Bill Simmons about the KY/UConn game:

"I'm enjoying the To Be Vacated Later Classic."

[Hypocrites, Demogogues and Skinflints]

To his credit ED MORRISSEY awards a CERTIFICATE OF HYPOCRISY to Republicans in Congress for doing what they accused Obama of doing.

" Republicans screeched when Louise Slaughter attempted to push a “deem and pass” strategy for ObamaCare a little over a year ago, arguing that the notion of deeming the bill as passed in the House without a direct floor vote was an affront to democracy and the Constitution. Democrats agreed — in 2003, when Republicans tried the same thing on a tax-credit measure. In the end, Democrats abandoned “deem and pass” as a strategy after less than a week and held a floor vote on ObamaCare instead, which passed.

Republicans swore to restore Constitutional processes if returned to the majority in the House. They’re not off to a great start. They have revived deem and pass, with a twist — instead of claiming that a bill has passed, the GOP voted that a House bill would be deemed as effective law if the Senate failed to act (via David Brauer):

The House narrowly passed legislation on Friday that calls for a House-passed FY 2011 spending bill to become law should the Senate fail to approve a spending bill by April 6. It would also prevent members of Congress from being paid during a government shutdown.

The bill, H.R. 1255, was approved over bitter Democratic opposition in a 221-202 vote in which no Democrats supported it, and 15 Republicans opposed it.

Several Democrats argued that the measure is unconstitutional, charging that it would “deem” that the 2011 spending bill, H.R. 1, has the force of law if the Senate fails to act. Some Democrats seized on the floor comments from Rep. Louie Gohmert (R-Texas), who broke with his party and said on the floor that this aspect of the bill “violates my conscious and the Constitution, and I cannot vote for it.”

[Hypocrites, Demogogues and Skinflints]

The do 'screeeeeeaaaaccchhhhh' alot.

Just like the Pastor in SC, screaching does some damage though.

[Captain Hate]

Screaching?

Btw what damage did "the Pastor in SC" do?

[PaulV]

Where should the Huskies go? Off the floor, out the door? Double secret probation?

[MarkO]

In any decent league, they would be ineligible to play on Monday.

[narciso]

what does that tell you about the league?

[sbw]

So, when deem and pass is challenged in court by Democrats, do Republicans let the court rule against them and then apply the precedent to Obamacare.

Sheer genius!

Or stupidity. Take your choice, both seem correct.

[maryrose]

I love that the repubs have the dems looking like idiots. I think if the Senate doesn't act in a timely fashion, full speed ahead and send that sucker to Obiminee's desk. I dare him not to sign 61 billion in cuts and show the world how he doesn't take cutting the deficit seriously.

[Danube of Thought]

The $61 billion is a detour. The problem is that we are now spending 25% of GDP, as opposed to the historical 20%. Neither the president nor the Dems will do anything about it, and they will demagogue the bejeezus out of the GOP proposals.

I predict that there will be no serious cuts, and that the debt will continue to inrease until it brings about something close to catastrophe.

[Captain Hate]

what does that tell you about the league?

I think they're potentially in big trouble. The Ohio $tate football problems keep getting slimier as more info keeps coming out. Ordinarily they'd love to take a pass on punishing a proven ca$h cow like the Buckeye$ but the Sweater Vest has painted them into a corner by deliberately turning a blind eye to obvious, albeit minor, wrongdoing. Holding a dumbass press conference to gloss over things was extremely ill advised.

The basketball situation where Calipari can glide from program to program while penalties accrue in his wake has been begging for adult supervision. That it's happening to the Methcats whose idiot fans treated Tubby Smith like garbage is scant solace.

They both prove that colleges can't be trusted to regulate themselves when it comes to engaging in anything that generates revenue. Sad but true.

[narciso]

Who is the sweater vest, Captain, sometimes you really need to bring the Rosetta.

[Captain Hate]

Tressel. Sorry narc; if I confuse you...

[narciso]

When does the warranty run out on Lindsey, time to send him back to spec;
http://www.bluecollarphilosophy.com/2011/04/senators-reid-and-graham-consider-looking-into-koran-burning-incident-video.html

[jorod]

I think I found a use for Fannie and Freddie. They could buy the receivables from hospitals and other health care providers and package them up and sell them to investors. The health care providers would have more liquidity and be able to provide more health care options. Like housing, we would soon be drowning in providers. It's heaven on earth.

[pagar]

Wonder if any Korans were damaged in this incident?

"Two suicide bombers killed 41 people and wounded more than 65 in an attack outside a Sufi shrine in central Pakistan today, The attack is the latest at religious sites and events in Pakistan.

I believe Sen Reid, Sen Graham, and Sen Durbin ought to get hearings on this incident started right away.

[Gilgamesh]

On 10 April 2006, a DC-9 jet landed in the port city of Ciudad del Carmen, on the Gulf of Mexico, as the sun was setting. Mexican soldiers, waiting to intercept it, found 128 cases packed with 5.7 tons of cocaine, valued at $100m. But something else – more important and far-reaching – was discovered in the paper trail behind the purchase of the plane by the Sinaloa narco-trafficking cartel.

During a 22-month investigation by agents from the US Drug Enforcement Administration, the Internal Revenue Service and others, it emerged that the cocaine smugglers had bought the plane with money they had laundered through one of the biggest banks in the United States: Wachovia, now part of the giant Wells Fargo.

The authorities uncovered billions of dollars in wire transfers, traveller's cheques and cash shipments through Mexican exchanges into Wachovia accounts. Wachovia was put under immediate investigation for failing to maintain an effective anti-money laundering programme. Of special significance was that the period concerned began in 2004, which coincided with the first escalation of violence along the US-Mexico border that ignited the current drugs war."

Bean-Counters, Bankers and Engineers (especially Nukers) must be primarily Tea-Bagged. The fruits of their activities
have a similar smell.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/apr/03/us-bank-mexico-drug-gangs

[jimmyk]

Sorry narc; if I confuse you...

Narciso complaining about a cryptic reference? Irony of ironies. Of course I love narciso's posts for the challenge of trying to figure out the obscure allusions and layers of meaning.

[clarice]

Hw many korans were burned when the big Shiite mosque in Iraq was bombed?
Hw many bibles were burned in the endless attacks on churches throughout the Middle East?
How many torahs were consumed in fire when the Jews were driven by the tens of thousands out of the Middle East?

It's about time someone stopped kowtowing to this nonsensical demand for super special treatment and asked those questions.

[maryrose]

All religions have suffered persecution throughout the ages. No one is persecuting the Muslims. They are killing and beheading us and sending suicide bombers to continue their barbarism. We simply cannot let the barbarians win this fight. Obama is seen as weak so the leaders in the Middle east are taking full advantage of the situation. We should be helping in the Ivory Coast but instead we are diddling in Libya and hoping Obama gets lucky. Pathetic!

[Captain Hate]

Burning 7th century porn causes moderate members of a death cult to murder UN loads? I'm looking for a downside...

[pagar]

No report that I can find details how many Korans were damaged in this incident.

But Gateway Pundit has this:
"Muslim Troops Slaughter 1,000 Civilians in Ivory Coast Massacre"

"Thousands of people left their homes to escape the fighting and an estimated 40,000 sought refuge in a nearby Roman Catholic mission’s compound. The priests who operate it are running short of food, clean water and medical equipment to treat those they say arrived with gunshot wounds."

LUN

[Danube of Thought]

"Ordinarily they'd love to take a pass on punishing a proven ca$h cow like the Buckeye$"

Tell that to the once-proud Trojans.

[Captain Hate]

Well DoT, they certainly took their time investigating circumstances dealing with Reggie Bush; I think he was on his second contract before the penalties came down. As it was, given the violations it was pretty light as far as the severity of the punishment. I have a feeling that Pete Carroll being gone worked in U$C's favor.

[Gmax]

the underlying fraud is the problem

Well its not fraud for starters. Its process, and while the process may have been less than stellar, AGAIN, there is no doubt that these folks borrowed money and failed to continue to pay. Mortgage holders dont attempt to foreclose on homes that are paying as agreed.

Lose the ambulance chaser rhetoric and focus on the real issue.

[Danube of Thought]

"Well DoT, they certainly took their time investigating circumstances dealing with Reggie Bush"

As I recall, it took so long because none of the people with knowledge of the facts would talk to the NCAA. The NCAA had to wait until evidence was taken in the civil lawsuit involving Bush's parents.

Carroll blew town just in time, and now they've got a serial corner-cutter and certifiable weirdo in his place.

[jimmyk]

Its process, and while the process may have been less than stellar, AGAIN, there is no doubt that these folks borrowed money and failed to continue to pay.

I agree, gmax, and if the community organizer types use this as a way to get free homes for deadbeats we'll have a much bigger problem on our hands. Yes, the banks should have adhered to the letter of the law, but that doesn't entitle the deadbeats to free homes.

[jimmyk]

Not sure which thread to post this on, but I want to report that I just got back from a great hour and half with daddy at the local Irish pub, where we quaffed down some Guinness and got to know each other. My first JOM face-to-face, and needless to say, daddy is just as charming in person as online. I only wish it could have lasted longer, but I had parental obligations. Thanks to hit & run for brokering the date.

[clarice]

jimmyk, I am SOOOOOOO jealous.

[narciso]

Much like Alanis Morisette, trolls are not acquainted with the definition of ironic:

http://www.americanthinker.com/2008/09/how_allies_of_george_soros_hel.html

[jimmyk]

Clarice, if you promise to be nice I'll share him with you.

[DrJ]

jimmyk,

Caro, when we met, related a story about entering a restroom with another JOMer (Jane, I think). Said person, in a voice loud enough for everyone to hear, exclaimed that "daddy says the first time is special!"

daddy was my first too, with Elliott.

[Captain Hate]

Carroll blew town just in time, and now they've got a serial corner-cutter and certifiable weirdo in his place.

On the plus side of that, his presence drives Alice Davis even further into terminal dementia.

[Boatbuilder]

Agreed, Gmax. The only parties who should have a right to complain about an allegedly "fraudulent" signature are a) the person whose name was signed (if they did not authorize it) or b) someone who suffered actual harm as a result of an unauthorized signature; c) someone who acted upon the belief that the person signing the document was actually that person. Anything else is just a
distraction.
Pagar--would the people now in default have not taken the money if they knew of the allegedly fraudulent robo-signatures? Of course they would.

[PD]

just got back from a great hour and half with daddy at the local Irish pub

Was there any poise and confidence sauntering nearby?

[Jane]

Dr. J,

Boy did you screw that one up. Caro and I were traveling somewhere and both walked into a ladies room at the same time. Caro then said in a loud voice: "Daddy says the first one is the cleanest". And she has certainly repeated that often enough.

It was hysterical at the time given our ages. And it is hysterical every time she does it.

[bgates]

the banks should have adhered to the letter of the law, but

Why? It's just a bunch of boring old paperwork. If a bank says it wants to take possession of a house, it must have a good reason.

[DrJ]

Boy did you screw that one up.

I knew that you or Caro would correct me. Thanks!

[maryrose]

These people not paying their mortgages need to go through the foreclosure process if they can't make good on the back payments that they owe the bank. Nobody gets a free house. It took my husband and I 15 years to pay off our mortgage and we weren't eating out every weekend and upgrading every 5 minutes electronically or driving new cars. It was a lot of sacrifice and now in retirement we have that security.

[pagar]

"Well its not fraud for starters"

http://4closurefraud.org/2009/10/21/mers-is-a-sham/

IMO, and the opinion of judges in several states every single thing about MERS has been fraudulent from the day a bunch of shysters cooked it up. The only way that it could be legal is if there were state laws that allowed MERS to operate legally.

Banks knew how to handle mortgages legally for a good many yrs, than all the sudden we have such things as liar loans going thru.
What happened to the fact that income/assets are supposed to be checked before the loan was approved.

http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2010/10/debunking-banks-procedural-problems-defense-on-the-foreclosure-crisis.html

"At the heart of any trial or hearing is the determination of the truth of the matter. It is the very purpose of the rules of evidence and what law and fact is presented to the court. If the affiants lied, as it appears, then the truth of whether they owned the note and held the mortgage and the borrower was in default is at issue. Courts, Attorneys General, and bar associations need to serious consider actions that will assure compliance with the rule of law."

This country cannot stand as a democracy if there is one set of law for the banks, corps, elites and another set of law for the rest of us. Perjury and fraud on the court is very serious matter. It is not a mere paperwork problem."

IMO, procedual errors that number in the millions are simply fraud being used to over whelm the system.

[Janet]

“Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid says congressional lawmakers all are discussing taking some action in response to the Koran burnings of a Tennessee pastor..."

No word on the Mormon bashing play that is coming to a theater near you....so far it is getting rave reviews in the WaPo.

[Gmax]

As was well pointed out by Boatbuilder, the affidavit that you seem so exercised about, was not relied upon by the borrower to any degree whatsoever.

This should work just like tenant laws in most states. The first and only question should be "Did you pay?" If the answer is no, there is nothing else to talk about. Its an independent covenant, and you do get to hire a fancy lawyer and assert a bunch of offseting claims. In fact even if you have a valid beef, you probably dont have a right of direct offset.

Everything else about the whole robosigning, smells like ambulance chasing trial lawyers on steroids to me, anyway.

[Gmax]

You do NOT get to hire a fancy lawyer...

[Gmax]

The Texas economy is in better shape than almost anywhere ( North Dakota might be an exception ) and we dont have a huge overhang of foreclosures here freezing the market, unlike Florida. It might ( nay I say it has quite a bit ) have something to do with the fact that foreclosures are handled outside of the judicial process. You post public notice, wait the required number of days and sell on the courthouse steps but are allowed to credit bid. No fuss no muss, and no trial lawyer yelling at the top of their lungs about something that does not make a warm pile of dung.

[Rick Ballard]

Gmax,

Who are you putting in the ambulance? Somebody has to be in it 'cause chasing empty ambulances is a waste of oxygen. A deadbeat doesn't have a claim.*

I've had it in the political ploy column (keep hope alive for ACORN clients who believe that BOzo really is going to pay their mortgage) and market disruption as a part of Cloward-Piven.

Political hack judges coupled with "public interest" puke attorneys seems a better fit than good old ambulance chasers.

*MBS fraud aside - different kettle.

[Jim Rhoads a/k/a vjnjagvet]

GM and BB:

You make out a compelling case that the borrower should not get a free ride.

But there is a difference between fraud on or by the borrower relating to a transaction and fraud on the court. If the rule of law is to prevail, courts cannot tolerate fraud of witnesses, falsification of legal documents just as it cannot tolerate perjury. Nor can it ignore something judges consider even worse - fraud on the court by attorneys appearing before it.

Frankly, when judicial process is attacked, most courts don't consider it relevant that one party or the other may benefit from making sure such attack is not successful. That's just the way it is.

[caro]

Well,Jane has the quote right, but DrJ has a perfect sentiment when it comes to JOM in-person meetups.

[bgates]

Let me see if I follow this:

1. Somebody borrows a bunch of money to buy a house.

2. The loan is sold and securitized any number of times.

3. Any bank that has ever done business in North America can seize the house at any time.

4. But no bank would do that unless it really deserved to get the house.

5. So the banks can be trusted to act on the honor system because deadbeats gotta pay.

What am I missing?

[Gmax]

Apparently you believe that these bad banks ( they are corporations so that is real scary ) are just trying to seize assets that they are not entitled to. Meanwhile the valiant little proletariat borrower, much put upon, deserve a free house ( despite the chilling effect this would have on the willingness of other to make loans in the future ) cuz the paperwork which says the deadbeat is not paying, and this is collateral for the loan, has a signature on a piece of paper that gasp might not have been properly notarized.

Hell its damn lucky its Florida, they might kill you for less in Afghanistan.

[Gmax]

Jim

Thanks for the rational response. I am not going to get into the weeds of the legal argument here, as I have already pointed out, many many states handle this process outside of the judicial process. That is the right answer.

I will point out that processs did not seem to trouble the court in Wisconsin. Elsewise, parties unnamed would not be enjoined. So forgive this nonlawyer, that it would seem to me courts, judges and lawyers have and do tolerate far worse.

The true story is we dont need lawyers, judges and courts to enforce a creditors right to seize pledged collateral when the debt goes unpaid. Get it out of the court system, and your major concern crumples into dust like a 200 year old piece of papyrus.

[RichatUF]

jorod (@3:40)-

Now you know how the Greeks were able to hide so much debt.

[pagar]

Over the years I have gotten the feeling that most JOMers are law abiding citizens. There are an entire set of laws in every state in the union that are set up to handle foreclosure. The courts set up to handle the foreclosures (in the states that handle it that way) are saying:

"Angry and exasperated by faulty foreclosure documents, judges throughout Florida are hitting back by increasingly dismissing cases and boldly accusing lawyers of "fraud upon the court."

http://www.palmbeachpost.com/money/foreclosures/foreclosure-crisis-fed-up-judges-crack-down-disorder-1369862.html

If "fraud upon the Court" becomes acceptable in foreclosure court, than in what court will it not be acceptable. Signing a document is supposed to mean something, when a Robo signed document appears in a court it does not mean what it is supposed to mean (that the signer know that the facts stated have been verified)

"The affidavit issue is being portrayed in the MSM at a paperwork problem. Lying to the court is not a paperwork problem. Attorneys are prohibited from making a material misrepresentation to the court of fact or law. Further, attorneys in most jurisdictions have an affirmative duty to report known perjury by their clients to the court."

The problem with the affidavits is perjury on behalf of the affiants and possibly the notaries depending on the notaries’ knowledge that the affiants had not reviewed the files, the promissory notes, the mortgages, or the records of default."

http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2010/10/debunking-banks-procedural-problems-defense-on-the-foreclosure-crisis.html

"This should work just like tenant laws in most states. "

IMO, it should work the way the foreclosure law says. What started all the problems in the first place was that a bunch of people thought they could ignore the law and just run the mortgage market the way they wanted.
If things needed to be changed, the law needs to be changed first.

[Ignatz]

--just as it cannot tolerate perjury--

In my experience somewhere between 75 and 90% of witnesses perjure themselves, without consequence, so there seems to be a whole lot of perjurin' goin' on and since nobody's getting in trouble for it they sure seem to be tolerating it.

[pagar]

http://4closurefraud.org/2009/10/26/lies-a-new-tool-in-foreclosures/

Why are we being asked to believe this is an acceptable way to run a court system?

Foreclosure fraud in Texas--Google--About 5,890,000 results (0.15 seconds)

[Janet]

Burn flags, take down crosses, remove references to our Judeo-Christian heritage...but DO NOT touch this book you infidels or these women in ANOTHER COUNTRY, for goodness sake, will start killing.

The insane beliefs & actions of foreigners are now gonna dictate what American citizens can do?

[Minimalist Poster]

As I understand the foreclosure problem the question is not wnether ANY bank can foreclose, but WHICH bank can foreclose.

Some entity loans the borrower the money to buy the house. The borrowers gives the lender a promissory note. The borrower is obligated to pay the holder of the note. That obligation to pay is secured by a mortgage or a deed of trust on the house which gives the lender the right to foreclose if the borrower does not pay in accordance with the terms of the note.

If the original lender keeps the note and the mortgage, there isn't a question as to which lender has the right to foreclose if the borrower defaults. If the note and mortgage are properly transferred to another lender, that lender has the right to foreclose on default. The problem here is that a lot of secured loans were transferred a number of times. The right paper didn't wind up in the right hands at the right times. The problems with the transfers seem to be essentially careless errors due to the volume of transfers rather than due to any intent to decieve the borrower or the court.

As I understand it, in all but a very small number of cases, the borrower has defaulted. A lender that believes it has the proper documents to foreclose and therefore a contractual right to forclose under those documents initiates foreclosure proceedings. Since the right to foreclose is contractual under those documents, the lender must show that it has those rights and is the proper party to foreclose.

If the lender that has initiated foreclosure is not the proper party, the remedy is to get the proper documents to the lender that has initiated foreclosure, or to bring in the lender that has the proper documents and the contractual right to foreclose.

[DrJ]

In my experience somewhere between 75 and 90% of witnesses perjure themselves, without consequence

That's my experience too. Perjury in court, or on signed statements, happens a lot. The penalties for doing so are low, and they are almost never enforced.

So much for the integrity of the court and its officers.

[pagar]

Minimalist Poster, Well written. Thank you.

I think the key is proper documents.
----------------------------------------------

Off to another topic that ties into fraud.

http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2011/04/wachovia-paid-trivial-fine-for-nearly-400-billion-of-drug-related-money-laundering.html

[mockmook]

Re: perjury

After every verdict, many of the witnesses for the losing side would be technically guilty of perjury.

[Danube of Thought]

What am I missing?

The deadbeats.

[clarice]

what if we just forced the banks to repay anyone improperly foreclosed on 15 times the debt plus legal fees and let the clearance process continue, pagar?

Your plugging up the pipes for what seems to be an infinitesimal process problem.

[clarice]

***You're***'

[bgates]

Apparently you believe that these bad banks ( they are corporations so that is real scary ) are just trying to seize assets that they are not entitled to.

Apparently you believe that it doesn't matter whether a bank can produce any valid documentation establishing it is entitled to an asset.

What am I missing?
>> The deadbeats.

I'm not missing them. They're still in the house, until a creditor can demonstrate a right to take it.

[Ann]

I hear you Janet. :) (Move to the Just Say No thread.)

[narciso]

Since today seems more surreal, than usual, I'll chime in with the latest novel I finished
Agent X, it's by a former FBI agent Noah Boyd
(the pseudonym of Paul Lindsay, an already published author) which takes a rather familiar view of counterintelligence, to us anyways. that we know well, here, in the lead characters tackling a Russian spy ring,

[daddy]

Big big fun!

So's we meet at this Upper West Side Irish joint at like eighty-toid and toid and Amsterdam Street whatever, and
pretty soon JimmyK revealed the important information that he was not a Duke fan, had never been a Duke fan, had nothing whatever to do with Duke, wouldn't let his 9 year old daughter go to Duke in a million years, and didn't give a damn if the place burned to the ground yesterday, so right off the bat I was charmed by this gentlemen, and was glad to shake the hand that had shook the hand of an OSS agent that took a pee in a Top Secret lavatory in Wartime England with General Dwight David Eisenhower in 1944. (Great story---but maybe you had to be there).

Anyhow, here's Keeley's err, excuse me, here's George Keeley's Pub. Unlike the Irish Joint that Melinda took me to in Chicago, this place was not converted from the city's most famous house of Prostitution of a 100 years ago. Keeley's was clean and friendly, very nice beers, and had a bunch of families with kids in strollers. A very inviting neighborhood bar!

I was in the first table on the left, 2 Guinnesse's ahead, but was standing watching an ugly Boston baseball team getting their butts kicked on the overhead 3 days in a row by Texas, (Yeowch) when suddenly JimmyK walked in. We immediately recognized each other, and shortly were gleefully yammering away about JOMer's and the deficit and Libya and Wisconsin and whatall else. At least one of us not being an Economics Professor, I was struggling for a moment, and it got a tad testy when (him being a member of the Teamsters and me being a member of ALPA), he called me a JOM racketeer (or maybe he said raconteur), but whether it was that French racoon thing or the other regardless, I think he felt suddenly it was time for him to buy the next round which he did, and suddenly everything was back on the upside all over again and we had a great fun time from there on out.

Sadly tho' JimmyK had to dash home just as we were getting started on his interesting personal family stories about PANAM and the Wartime OSS and a great college roommate, so I quickly jotted down some points on a Bar Napkin after he left, but it's kinda smudged and crumpled now, so I don't know if I was supposed to say that he went to Har...or not, and then to some Institute of Technology for gradschool, but he definitely did not go near Duke-Yippee!, and I know didn't screw that part up.

For the record---none of the bar staff carried themselves with the poise and confidence of a seasoned athlete. At George Keele's they were all guys anyway. JimmyK remembered that on his last visit to McSorley's that the bar guys generally looked unfriendly, and I agreed, remembering thinking last night that every one of them looked like Charlie Manson.

Anyhow, JimmyK is way handsomer than Charlie Manson; good head of thick hair, no bedbugs, and a Detroit Tigers fan. (Not that there's anything wrong with that!)

Thank you JimmyK. I really, really enjoyed that this evening. Thanks very much. Great fun. Hopefully we'll do it again. And thank you Hit for doing the the logistics.

[clarice]

I told Jimmy I was jealous, daddy. what more do you want?

[MarkO]

daddy, except for the expected and accepted Duke bashing, a fun post.

[MarkO]

There is a pandemic of perjury in the judicial system. Those willing to lie gain an almost insurmountable advantage in litigation. When impeached, even severely, the Courts tend to overlook it and rarely (never in my experience) refer it out for prosecution. Not all forgetful witnesses are guilty of perjury. Moreover, you would be more likely to find perjurers on the winning side of a finished case.

That said, the importance of clear and reliable title to real estate is of overriding concern to American property law. It is one area of the law that holds some reasonable certainty. These concerns would cloud title and present issues for generations if not cleared now. Because I am unfamiliar with the evidence in these cases I can’t really say that the documents are fraudulent or even weak. Additionally, there is no legal reason that the rights to collect on and foreclose these debt instruments cannot be assigned to any legal entity anywhere. Those assignments, however, must also be clear enough to encumber the real estate.

So, these cases are only a subset of the perjury in the system. For a perfect example of why courts don’t refer perjury cases, take the Bonds trial as Exhibit A. For a perfect example of why such a referral could lead to severe injustice, also involving perjury in the very criminal proceeding, take the Libby case as Exhibit B. Bonds is clearly guilty; Libby clearly not.

[Jim Rhoads a/k/a vjnjagvet]

Non-judicial foreclosure is nor a panacea.

Georgia is a non-judicial foreclosure state. In November, a 84 page multi-count class action was filed in the federal court for the Northern District of Georgia against banks, bank employees, servicing companies and real estate foreclosure law firms. In essence it alleges that the defendants did not comply with the minimal standards prescribed under GA law.

[Ann]

Not all forgetful witnesses are guilty of perjury.

Tell that to Scooter Libby.

[Danube of Thought]

"They're still in the house, until a creditor can demonstrate a right to take it."

Here's a solution I should think we can all agree on: there being no doubt whatsoever that the deadbeat has forfeited the right to possession, let title escheat to the state, to be sold on the open market after a reasonable period in which any bona fide creditor can come forward to establish title. All proceeds from state sales are to be refunded to state taxpayers.

No one is unjustly enriched, and the market clears.

[Melinda Romanoff]

clarice-

Through the securitization process, using MERS, clarity of title doesn't exist, the foreclosure robosigning fraud merely exposed this bigger problem.

All for the banks to avoid the little filing fee in 3,163 different counties across the country.

This is a Massive problem and Dodd-Frank is just one layer to force the Feds into financing their mistakes, thus making the government complicit.

The mortgage-backed securities are the linchpin to a whole string of actions by the originating agents and various lending institutions, fully funded by Fannie and Freddie.

I've written earlier about this, as pagar knows, and, will in the future, but not now.

This is the remaining sick core of the financial crisis and the housing market will not heal until it's resolved.

More later.

[jimmyk]

Daddy, I deny everything. I know nothing. Nothing happened. Well, I'll only say that daddy bears a striking resemblance to a beloved football hero, and I don't think he said anything nasty about the Red Sox or Yankees, though I could be mistaken about that.

[Jane]

You guys are so coy!

[daddy]

"Coy"

What the hell? That's like 2 times today somebodies called me something that sounds French. I tell you what Jane, if you're gonna' start slinging around Frog lingo every time the RedSox take one on the chin this year, pick up a French Dictionary in Paree' in a couple days, 'cause I think you're gonna' need it..

Bon Voyage:)

[Jim Rhoads a/k/a vjnjagvet]

DOT:

What about the court appointing a trustee (e.g. a real estate management company not involved in the mortgage transaction) to take possession and manage, rent or sell the property? if revenue is generated by rental or sale, the proceeds less administrative costs could be impleaded into court until the true owner is determined.

[Danube of Thought]

OK by me, JR. What trumps everything is the need to let market pricing establish itself. It may well never happen, because every manner of mindless government intervention has so buggered the whole process. Efforts to unscramble omelettes of this kind do not have a good track record.

[Jim Rhoads a/k/a vjnjagvet]

Maybe some courageous judge will try it out.

[bgates]

there being no doubt whatsoever that the deadbeat has forfeited the right to possession

To which the deadbeat response would be, "what, because I stopped writing checks to an organization that is unable to demonstrate a legal interest in the property?"

No one is unjustly enriched

Since the deadbeat vs bank struggle evokes a level of sympathy in me somewhere between the Hillary-Obama primary and the Iran-Iraq war, I'd be thrilled to come up with a way that lets them both lose.

Heh. Here's a twist on your idea to make it stupid enough to be palatable to the governing class: federal legislation stating that if the result of this mess is that clear title cannot be established for the first time in the history of white settlement in North America, the property reverts back to the Indians.

[Danube of Thought]

"what, because I stopped writing checks to an organization that is unable to demonstrate a legal interest in the property?"

No, because you yourself can demonstrate no legal interest in the property. Get out, and let property accrue to those who can usefully manage it, in accordance with age-old principles.

I think my proposal does indeed let them both lose, and it has the added advantage of allowing an actual market for housing emerge. But if someone with whom I am unsympathetic should happen to benefit, that would be fine with me so long as a free market emerges.

[Threadkiller]

--“What am I missing?
Posted by: bgates"--
Appraisal fraud.

We have been conducting reviews of appraisals that were done by Countrywide KB Home Loans on homes that were being sold in Arizona by KB Home. The reviews have found a number of irregularities, such as that the appraisers overlooked sales that were more similar in size and closer geographically in favor of sales of homes of dissimilar sizes that were much farther away (10 miles in one case).

In a particularly egregious case, Nathan Johnson sought to purchase a home from KB Home for $394,000. He tried to get a mortgagee through the Navy Federal Credit Union. However the Navy Federal appraiser valued the home at just $351,000.
Rather than lower the price, KB Home tried to get the Navy Federal appraiser to increase the value. When this failed, Countrywide did its own appraisal which found that the house was worth $394,000, and Countrywide KB agreed to make a first and second mortgage for the full amount. Mr. Johnson and his wife had just relocated from California and were expecting a baby soon and so felt they had to go ahead with the purchase.

The homeowners whose appraisals we reviewed are now the plaintiffs in a $2.8 billion class action lawsuit filed against Countrywide KB and its appraisal firm Landsafe. We believe that
5 similar claims may exist against the other homebuilders. An independent review of a Pulte appraisal found that:
• “The original appraiser traveled two miles for one of the comparable sales when sales were available closer to the subject” and
• “The appraiser used a sale that had 442 square feet difference of gross living area than the subject. Using a sale with this big difference tends to over/under state the value conclusion due the adjusted amount. The reviewer found sales the appraiser could have used with GLA within 50 square feet of the subject.”

--“No one is unjustly enriched, and the market clears.
Posted by: Danube of Thought”--

So I hope that an industry that created a phony value to lure a borrower in does not get unjustly enriched. If there were no equity then there would be no loan. If they lied about the equity through fraudulent appraisals, is the borrower 100% to blame?

--“clarice-
Through the securitization process, using MERS, clarity of title doesn't exist, the foreclosure robosigning fraud merely exposed this bigger problem.
Posted by: Melinda Romanoff”--

I can’t explain the Natural Born process to Clarice. I hope you have better luck explaining the securitization process to her.

[jimmyk]

"what, because I stopped writing checks to an organization that is unable to demonstrate a legal interest in the property?"

I rather doubt that was the reason that any of them stopped paying their mortgage, but if that is the issue, we can add to DoT's fine proposal the possibility of the current resident making payments into an escrow account while the legal issues are worked out.

I suspect the various laws and regulations involving recording and filing fees and such did not conceive of securitization on a grand scale. Securitization is a useful tool that unfortunately got misused and abused. Hopefully regulations will be rewritten to allow it to occur while preventing fraud and abuse but without imposing huge burdens. In the meantime, as DoT said, let's get the housing market functioning again.

[pagar]

For those who believe it's just procedural errors.

"[The bank’s lawyer had admitted the securitized trust that filed the lawsuit, sought summary judgment, and filed an affidavit in support did not exist]."
LUN
I suspect this is one Florida foreclosure judge that is going to be looking a lot harder at the BS carp the banks are sending him.

The way to clear the housing market, IMO, is arrest the MERS officials for fraud. Get the money that is owed to the counties for transfer fees from the banks and let the county recorders do their job of recording the paper trail of the property.

[Melinda Romanoff]

pagar-

We're on the same page, but cleaning up the clouded title issues, where they exist, is probably going to take legislation.

[jimmyk]

Pagar, if there is a compelling case for fraud, I wouldn't have a problem with that. But this bothers me (from your LUN):

Although in most cases the bank is allowed to refile the case with the appropriate documents, in a growing number of cases judges are awarding homeowners their homes free and clear after finding fraud upon the court…

I don't think that's a good outcome, nor is it in accord with the rule of law, and it bodes ill for future borrowers hoping to get a mortgage on reasonable terms.