To The Shores Of Benghazi

The NY Times reports on a plot twist that will surprise Samantha Powers, Hillary Clinton and no one else - Qadaffi's troops are experienced, savvy, and not interested in being targets of allied aircraft:

BREGA, Libya — A NATO airstrike intended for the forces of Col. Muammar el-Qaddafi apparently killed at least eight rebel fighters in the battle outside this pivotal oil port, an ambulance driver and news reports said Saturday.

The deaths underscored the challenge that the Western allies and the rebels face in relying on airstrikes to push back the Qaddafi forces as the two sides mix in the battle zone along the front.

Perhaps in response to the Western airstrikes, the Qaddafi forces are increasingly plunging into combat in equipment similar to what the rebels are using, mainly pickup trucks mounted with machine guns or artillery. The move makes it increasingly difficult for even the combatants to distinguish one group from the other at first sight.

Hmm.  From what has been reported about the poorly trained and led Libyan rebels, Qaddafi's troops would have to be prohibitive favorites in close engagements.  But surely we can bomb their tanks and heavy equipment, yes?  No:

The battle lines remained largely unchanged, centered to the east of Brega, as the fighting continued Saturday. A few rebels had established a light presence in the city, near the university, but the Qaddafi forces remained in solid control. Although airstrikes have taken out some of the Qaddafi forces’ tanks and heavy weapons, the militia had evidently held back some of its military equipment in the relatively dense urban area, where the NATO forces cannot strike without the risk of civilian casualties.

No kidding.

The WaPo reports that non-success is an option:

Stalemate in Libya increasingly viewed as a likely outcome

By Joby Warrick and Liz Sly, Friday, April , 9:07 PM

U.S. officials are becoming increasingly resigned to the possibility of a protracted stalemate in Libya, with rebels retaining control of the eastern half of the divided country but lacking the muscle to drive Moammar Gaddafi from power.

Such a deadlock — perhaps backed by a formal cease-fire agreement — could help ensure the safety of Libyan civilians caught in the crossfire between the warring sides. But it could also dramatically expand the financial and military commitments by the United States and allied countries that have intervened in the six-week-old conflict, according to U.S. officials familiar with planning for the Libyan operation.

Taking us where?

U.S. analysts have concluded that Gaddafi will likely not step aside voluntarily, despite recent defections by top aides. Nor is he likely to be driven anytime soon from his Tripoli base, where he has surrounded himself with highly paid fighters and tribal kinsmen who remain fiercely loyal, the officials said.

One likened the current conflict to an evenly matched football game, with two sides skirmishing over a few yards in midfield.

“Neither side seems capable of moving the ball down the field,” said the U.S. official. “It is also true that neither side has endless resources.”

A stalemate could mean an open-ended mission for the coalition of NATO and Arab countries now enforcing the no-fly zone over Libya, increasing both the financial and political costs for the participants. But analysts are increasingly confident that Gaddafi can be largely contained within a divided Libya, unable to significantly threaten his neighbors and gradually weakening over time.

One wonders - will Qaddafi become a more energetic sponsor of international terror from his reduced enclave?  His reasons for doing so should be obvious.  Then again, the benefit of restraint would be that the quicker he drops off Obama's radar the quicker NATO will turn its attention elsewhere.

It might have been better if Obama had not declared that ousting Qaddafi was US policy.

FIRE DISCIPLINE:  From the WaPo:

The strike, which killed 13 rebels and injured seven, illustrated the hazards of conducting an aerial bombing campaign against a fluid and fast moving front line. Several cars and an ambulance were also incinerated, and opposition leaders said rebels may have been responsible for the bombing because they had fired their guns into the air in celebration.

Foreign trainers would have plenty of material to cover.  "Don't shoot at your air support" would be one good rule to emphasize.  A bit later, we see this:

But Iman Bugaighis, an opposition spokeswoman, said a publicity campaign was underway in mosques and on the radio to try to stop rebels from firing their weapons arbitrarily into the sky, a common practice.

Safety concerns aside, she said, “these ammunitions are very valuable because we have to use them on the front lines. We are trying to get the message out.”

 

Comments

[narciso]

From the last thread:

http://www.longwarjournal.org/archives/2011/04/ex-gitmo_detainee_tr.php

[Cecil Turner]

A stalemate remains the best probable outcome of the current approach. Which means this war falls afoul of one of the primary requirements for just war (jus ad bellum):

Probability of success
Arms may not be used in a futile cause or in a case where disproportionate measures are required to achieve success;

Makes it doubly illegal (unconstitutional and immoral). Of course, we could probably fix the "immoral" part just by being in it to win it; but since we aren't . . .

[Pops]

Why are so many still confused by Obamas actions?

Its simple news media, Obama wants the US and the West to be seen as useless and incapable.

This is not an accident, this is Obama doctrine.

[narciso]

And Steyn chips in, on the ludicrousness of it all;

http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/263675/obama-s-missionless-war-mark-steyn

[Pops]

And please, please even the 'right wing' news media is calling the MURDERS of people 'protests' against the Koran burning.

Murdering someone is NOT a 'protest', it is a crime.

[Pops]

""It might have been better if Obama had not declared that ousting Qaddafi was US policy""

Not if your point is that The United States is no more than a back-ward third rate has- been country that mouths off and makes grandious statements that it can't possibly do anything about.

It is time for the US to start mouthing off on policies and then not following through, you know like Cuba and Iran and Syria, and Bangladesh, and everyone else...

[Jack is Back!]

My friend, the Brit black ops guy, who was there in '69 tells me that the rebels are spineless without a ruthless and cut-throat leader (no doctors or lawyers need apply:). They will run and melt into the adobe once they meet an organized security force. He thinks The Big Q survives another day or finds a way to exit with the necessary capital to live an Italian count's life style.

P.S. Phil the Thrill is making a big move at Houston in prep for The Masters!

[Cecil Turner]

A NATO airstrike intended for the forces of Col. Muammar el-Qaddafi apparently killed at least eight rebel fighters in the battle outside this pivotal oil port, an ambulance driver and news reports said Saturday.

Maybe they were attacking civilians? Or we just wanted to convince 'em we were serious (and unserious at the same time, which ain't easy).

[Jim Rhoads a/k/a vjnjagvet]

What do you expect when a girly men Obama, Rice and Clinton are running the war? Clausewitz,

The whole exercise reminds me of the words of one of the verses of Tom Lehrer's Fight Fiercely Harvard:

"...Won't it be peachy if we win the game, oh, goody
Let's try not to injure them
But fight, fight, fight - Let's not be rough, though
Fight, fight, fight...."

Clausewitz, Sun Tsu, Gudarien, Rommel, Patton and Eisenhower would be gobsmacked.

[daddy]

Good morning,

New Drudge Headline says NATO accidentally killed 15 Libyan Rebels, so I don't know if thats just doubling the original 7 from TM's link, or if thats 15 in addition to the earlier 7, so now totaling 22. But Drudge also sez that 7 are injured, so all in all I think, per the previous thread, the answer is probably 37.

And scrolling down a bit I see Drudge also has a headline that the Rebels are calling for a Cease Fire, but I don't know whether they're asking for a Cease Fire from NATO or a Cease Fire from Quadaffi.

My head hurts. Anybody know if BedBugs can crawl into your ears like what happened to Chekov in that Star Trek movie, or are they simply finicky epidermis eaters?

[maryrose]

Jim
Once again I agree with you.
Obama really is a girlie man.
Pops The Obama Doctrine is as you describe it. He deliberately wants us to look weak and helpless in the eyes of the world. The possibilities abound for anti-Obama campaign ads and I hope the ad-masters are hard at work as we speak. He knows nothing about military maneuvers because like Clinton he never served.

[narciso]

I think Zapp Brannigan, said it best, when he inquired 'what makes a person go neutral' daddy, of course, that's before he blasted
DOOP headquarters;

I think the brain slugs of CEti Alpha V1 explain a great deal of today's commentary.

[Ignatz]

--New Drudge Headline says NATO accidentally killed 15 Libyan Rebels--

Well, Hotair's headline a couple of days ago was that there are less than a thousand rebels.
At this rate we will have killed everyone opposing Gaddafhi with about 30 or 40 more missions.
Go Kinetic NATO!

[Rocco]

The Ayers/Dreams stuff is really interesting but I wish the conservative blogosphere would apply more pressure to Ayers and Dohrn for their involvement with the murder of San Francisco Police Sergeant Brian V. McDonnell. FBI mole Larry Grathwohl went underground in the Weather Underground and testified before a US Senate Subcommittee that Ayers told him Dohrn had to plan, make and plant the bomb that killed Sergeant Grathwohl. And since there's no statute of limitation for murder, wouldn't it be nice to see him finally brought to justice?

Enlightened you've been through the mill lately, you're in my prayers.

[clarice]

Ask Patton: If there's one thing Americans cannot stand it's a loser.

[Rocco]

that killed Sergeant McDonnell, not Sergeant Grathwohl!

[daddy]

Narciso,

That is the perfect Futurama reference for this Obama policy.

Other great moments in Neutralness:

"I have no strong feelings one way or the other"

"All I know is my gut says maybe."

"Your Neutralness, its a Beige Alert."

[Sara (Pal2Pal)]

If you aren't in it to win it, you are a loser before you ever fire a shot.

[Jack is Back!]

Here is the extra-ultra exercise in neutralness:

Butler or VCU?

Kentucky or Connecticut?

Houston is busy tonight - Phil is leading the Shell and the final four starts with all the neutralness that Houston can bring.

[daddy]

Too hard a call to make while sober JiB, so off to McSorley's for enlightenment.

[Extraneus]

Oh to live an Italian count's lifestyle. Just the sound of it gives me pangs.

[Jane]

Rocco,

Wanna come to Boston with me for the Tea party? We are meeting TC there.

Plus don't forget the Worcester tea party on the 18h.

[clarice]

OT--The latest Birtharama--which among other things claims the COLB presented is not recognized under federal law as proof of birth.
http://thedailypen.blogspot.com/2011/04/final-report-obamas-birth-announcements.html

[Pops]

Isn't it time for another Obama vacation?

He's been in DC for days....what gives?

[Extraneus]

Obama really is a girlie man.

I didn't read the books. Has either Obama autobiography ever mentioned him getting into an actual physical fight as a kid or adult?

[Pops]

I'm thinking its really time for the Republicans to throw out the rule book on the budget.

this whole talk of cuts is ridiculous. They need to start talking in terms of tax dollars spent versus foriegn money borrowed.

They should speak in terms of how much they are going to spend in terms of dollars collected, versus the Democrats plans to raise taxes to spend more.

When the Democrats claim they are cutting, they should say, they are not cutting, they are going back to a sensible budget before Obama, Reid and Pelosi went on a wildly irresponsible spending bing that is bankrupting the country.

[maryrose]

Ext:
Not to my knowledge. He's probably been using "smart diplomacy" since he was a kid.

[Elliott]

Prescience, he has it:

“The President does not think that Gadhafi will prevail,” a senior administration official says, distancing the president from comments made by Director of National Intelligence James Clapper this afternoon.

President Obama “believes that Gadhafi has lost the legitimacy to lead and should leave, and that history is on the side of the Libyan people and their call for change,” the official says.

Much inspirational.

[Sara (Pal2Pal)]

Clarice: I just linked that story on the other thread and I didn't read it that the COLB isn't recognized as proof of birth. The story is about the newspaper blurbs announcing the birth and how they come about and how a good number do not come from the hospitals or from vital medical records of the birth.

[maryrose]

Pops,you are on a roll today and I am in agreement with all your statements. This joke of dems cutting spending has got to be revealed for the trojan horse that it is.

[Pops]

The House should change the terms of baseline budgeting.

The BASELINE should be the amount of tax money you collected last year (i.e. income). Not how much you would like to spend (i.e. teenage girl at the mall), or politician buying votes.

[Rocco]

Jane...I was planning on making the Sturbridge Tea Party on the 18th. When is the Boston Party?

[hit and run]

1773

[hit and run]

Daddy -- check your email.

[Rocco]

In New Hampshire?

[Jack is Back!]

Hit,

HeeeHeeee, what a doofus you are. Everyone on the east coast near Havaaad and Yail know that this constitution thing started in 1776. Get with the program.

BTW, VCU v. Butler is starting to move beyond beige - do they have it on at McSorley's?

[Rocco]

I apologize to all the Bachman fans...I just can't forgive her for that gaffe.

[rse]

hit-

Human eating machine popped in for 24 hours today so Fl looks more likely now.

Dr J-

Replied briefly to you. Have so much more but you best stock up on antacids.

Wishing everyone here the best as I do a college tour and wind up in Chicago to see a U-Boat tour.

Told my daughter under the circumstances though if any college admin asks what I do, tell them I do health care. Almost true, I still track it.

[hit and run]

Yail

Like no place on earth.

[Rocco]

April 18th is a state holiday in Massachusetts commemorating the Battles of Lexington and Concord fought on April 19, 1775. For a great read check out The First To Die.

I know I post this every year on Patriots Day but since the subject came up...

[hit and run]

rse:
Human eating machine popped in for 24 hours today so Fl looks more likely now.

That would be awesome.

[Rocco]

Those Concord Minutemen stole the glory. It was the Acton Minutemen who saved the day when the Concord Minutemen chickened out!

[DrJ]

rse, I didn't get anything by email. Did it bounce? There's nothing in my spam box.

[DGS]

Absolutely Rocco. We also lost the commander of our Minutemen on the opening volley.

[rse]

Will send again Dr J.

[DrJ]

info at sonatabio dot com in the event I mistyped earlier.

[clarice]

Sara:

“This also explains why Obama’s birth announcements appear in the succession of announcements where and when they do. His alleged “Certification of Live Birth” is not approved by any federal authority as an official source of demographic data or medical verification of his birth. It is merely a record of birth registration. Therefore, the order of printing of announcements in the local papers comes directly from the list which is ordered based on the birth registration office location, not the chronological or alphabetical order of the medically verified birth.”

[Jane]

Rocco,

The Boston Tea Party is tax day - the 15th - when they should be happening all over the country. I think it is Friday. Monday is patriots Day and we are all consolidating in Worcester. It's a tea party and also a pig roast.

If you want to go to Boston we should try and drive together, and kidnap Dave on the way.

[Jane]

..I just can't forgive her for that gaffe.

I can. She is being Palinized. I saw Jay Leno say something about her being stupid and meant to email him. I know him so he might actually read it. Then Mathew Dowd wrote something recently and used a very mocking picture of her. So I wrote him and he actually replied.

As I told him, I'm not big on the ism's but it is sexist as hell to treat every conservative woman as if she is stupid. Bachmann has a law degree, a masters in Tax,her own business, 5 kids and about 25 foster kids. She is no dummy.

[Rocco]

Truly has it been said, “The soul of action on that morning was the soul of Isaac Davis, and when that soul was fled the action was over.” Indeed, when the company of regulars returned from Col. Barrett's, soon after Davis was killed, they were allowed to pass within a few rods of the Americans and over the bridge without molestation, to join their comrades in the village.

I used to drive within 20' of a monument in Acton twice a day where the bodies of Captain Isaac Davis, Abner Hosmer and James Hayward were interred. I also drove by the young fifer, Luther Blanchard's house on my way to and from work. Captain Isaac Davis is my hero!

[Rocco]

I can make both parties Jane, just let me know what you have in mind.

[Janet]

Here is that Freeper link I always post telling about the 3 different acceptable birth records.

[sammy small]

Last year, the defense contractor I work for issued new badges for all employees under new federal identification guidelines. These are the ones that work with badge readers on computers, etc. Required were a local drivers license, and either a valid passport or an official certified birth certificate, not the short form type. Otherwise, no badge would be issued.

I hope Obama never tries to apply for a job supporting defense work.

[Neo]

this is looking more and more like a repeat of Gulf War I.
I guess by that reckoning, it will require that Sasha or Malia become President before Libya will be free.

[Ignatz]

--As I told him, I'm not big on the ism's but it is sexist as hell to treat every conservative woman as if she is stupid. Bachmann has a law degree, a masters in Tax,her own business, 5 kids and about 25 foster kids. She is no dummy.--

But a dork who says there are 57 states, that Austrians speak Austrian and Afghanis speak Arabic is not just smarter than us, he's evolved into some type of new lightworker-being, according to these mental pygmies.

[Sara (Pal2Pal)]

Oh okay Clarice, I think we are saying basically the same thing. I read your comment as putting the emphasis on "federal authority," which I kind of skimmed past in reading, concentrating instead on the difference between medical and administrative registration/authority. I think I see this as the different point of view between a lawyer and a genealogist thinking in terms of primary and secondary sources.

A newspaper birth announcement is clearly a secondary source and as a genealogist would only be used as a clue to date, place of birth, but not proof. Primary birth sources are a certified birth record, a baptismal record recorded in a church record. Primary sources for one piece of info can also be a secondary source for something else. Death certificates are primary for official date of death, they are secondary as to age/birth date of decedent, parent names, place of origin, etc. Same with marriage certificates. Primary for establishing a legal record of marriage, secondary as to ages of bride and groom, etc. People giving their own info or the info on a loved one sometimes make mistakes, guess, or outright lie, or repeat longstanding lies. This is especially true on age.

BTW, one of the things I love most about genealogy is the thrill of the hunt. I love both hunting down the information and I really love laying out all kinds of disparate info and begin to see patterns or little clues that lead me on to the next thing. And there is absolutely no high like the high you get when you finally find that last piece that suddenly opens the floodgates. I've been in libraries where suddenly someone will jump up at a microfilm reader and start yelling "I found it! Look! Look!" I am intrigued by the mysteries of the birth records, not so much because I really give a damn, but because I'm compelled by the genealogy gene to pay attention. I tend to think in terms of, would the New England Genealogy Society, the National Genealogy Society, the DAR, the LDS church, or other respected libraries/record keepers accept this info as primary proof. A much different viewpoint than whether it would be acceptable under existing law.

[Ranger]

So, I find it interesting that at the moment, there is not one story about Libya on the BBC news page. The number one story is this:

Ivory Coast: Abidjan in grip of fierce fighting

Heavy fighting is taking place in Ivory Coast's main city, Abidjan, for a third day as rival forces battle for power.

Internationally-recognised President Alassane Ouattara's fighters fought for control of key areas held by troops loyal to incumbent Laurent Gbagbo

...

Meanwhile the UN, quoted by AFP, says many of the hundreds of deaths in the western town of Duekoue this week were at the hands of Mr Ouattara's forces.

So, under the new Obama non-doctrine for initiating Kinetic military action, this would seem to be a prime case for a week or so of non-war to support one side, or the other in achieving, or not achieving, something or other.

[Pops]

The only proper response to the lamestream media complaints about birthers:

SORRY, BUT I WAS TAUGHT IF YOU SEE SOMETHING, SAY SOMETHING.

[Ranger]

There is, by the way, a story on the BBC news page focusing on Africa, about the bombing of the Libyan rebels... A key point:

The rebels were on their way to Brega when they fired into the air with an anti-aircraft gun, the BBC's Nick Springate reported from the scene of the attack.

It seems to not have occured to our intrepid allies in Libya that firing an anti-aircraft gun into the air while a NATO aircraft flies by could be taken as a provocative action by the NATO aircraft.

No wonder we pulled all our A-10s and AC-130s from the mission. If the rebels keep firing off their AA guns in celebration every time we fly by, there would be none left to fight Gaddafi by this time next week.

[Pops]

Tonight, on a very special Who Do you Think You Are?

Barack Obama looks at his history, his controversial birth records and his life since birth.

Barack Obama: "I was born....."

This concludes this very special episode, tune in next week when Michelle reveals her family ties to Secretariat....

[Jack is Back!]

Butler wins. Obama demands a recount.

[Sara (Pal2Pal)]

I have begun to play around with the thought that the whole BC subject might have been a surprise to Obama. I have found so many papers and journal entries after my Mother's death, it occurred to me that either during his Grandma's last days or on the next trip, he went through her papers and may have discovered things that suddenly became problematic.

On another aspect of Obama's story, is there ever an explanation as to why Stanley Ann went to Washington and registered for school there rather than go back to Boston with her so-called husband/baby daddy and register for school there? Surely there was a school near Harvard that she could attend, since she was willing to leave home and go to another state anyway.

To me, the hinkiest part of the story is the idea of newlyweds heading in two different directions just weeks after their first child is born. It doesn't track.

[narciso]

The Times squirmish Scot, MacFarquahar, has come around to sheepishly telling us, what we
already suspected, that Salafism has gained
great strides in the last month in a half, when Colonel Zomor, a name I had to go back
to the Looming Tower for, the quartermaster
of the Sadat assasination was released, when
the kin of evil Santa, Sheikh Rahman, has asked he be released. What Rough Beast rises
in Cairo, and slouches toward Jerusalem.

[PD]

Looks like even the left is noticing that Obama's false choices are bogus.

[Janet]

Pops, THat is a great idea! President Obama could go on Robert Gates Jr.'s PBS show, African-American Lives, & find out more about his ancestry!
It would be interesting for us all...

[Ignatz]

Link to narciso's 9:27 reference.

[Ignatz]

--So, under the new Obama non-doctrine for initiating Kinetic military action, this would seem to be a prime case for a week or so of non-war to support one side, or the other in achieving, or not achieving, something or other.--

No Ranger, dead civilians only count if they're near an oil well and they aren't black.

[narciso]

"No Blood for Cocoa" doesn't have the same ring either,

[Robert]

I'm betting this was no accident. People have been openly wondering about the "Rebels" Well, not the MSM but free thinking-NOT Involved in Obama-worship people have been...

A group of rebels might have been found to be "Radical AQ" types by our "Non-Boots on the ground" and targeted for that reason. Think it's far fetched? I don't.

Obama has to be concerned with the aftermath of his decision. IF Libya falls into an AQ/Radical Islamic state because of his action, he and his party LOSE bigtime in 2012...

[hit and run]

Ignatz:
No Ranger, dead civilians only count if they're near an oil well and they aren't black.

"Some nations may be able to turn a blind eye to atrocities in other countries. The United States of America is different. And as President, I refused to wait for the images of slaughter and mass graves before taking action."
--stuff Obama said defending his actions in Libya

He would soooooo move to intervene in the Ivory Coast if only they knew how to upload videos to youtube.

[PD]

U.S. officials are becoming increasingly resigned to the possibility of a protracted stalemate in Libya

Protracted stalemate, huh? They can't bring themselves to say "quagmire."

[Porchlight]

This concludes this very special episode, tune in next week when Michelle reveals her family ties to Secretariat....

Blasphemy! How dare you sully the name of the monumental Secretariat by mentioning that vile woman in any connection with him. :)

[hit and run]

I would like to report some good news on the JOM-family health front.

My m-i-l has been in and out of the hospital over the past couple of months with debilitating pain. She's now found a doc who has diagnosed some serious vertebrae misalignment that he says he can fix via surgery. To cap it off -- and if you've been paying attention you might have noticed a couple of comments between rse an myself -- we are spending spring break with family down in Florida celebrating mrs hit and run's parents' 50th anniversary. The hospital visits of the past month put the trip in doubt. And the impending surgery made us all think it was all over but for the fat lady singing. But the surgeon today said that he was sure that she will be far enough along in recovery that she will be able to make the flight to Florida in a few weeks. Hallelujah. mrs hit and run's parents have had some serious carp in their lives over the past several years and by golly I just want their 50th anniversary to be something carpless. (I want their 50th to be the most joyous and celebratory occasion in the history of mankind,but with all that's gone down,simply carpless would be big step up). At this point it looks like it's a go,the flight's been booked,and we're all just hoping this doc knows what he's talking about.

Secondly -- my dad had some serious pains a few weeks ago -- enough to warrant a trip to his doc. Doc ran some tests,thought it might be an aneurysm. Carp carp carp. Nope. That wasn't it. Thought it might be congestive heart failure. He had quintuple bypass surgery 5 years ago so carp carp carp.

Well,just got off the phone with Mom and tests all came back normal. They can't explain the pains he was having -- which by the way went away a week and a half ago -- but all test show that there are no serious underlying issues. Free and clear for now.

And so they're driving here to spend some time with us next week. hit and run jr and princess hit and run are beside themselves with joy.

As am I.

[scott]

This war is lost. But hey, I just saw Jane Eyre with a couple 10 year old girls and Leftie shot 63 today so all is well.

[clarice]

No one deserved joy more than you and the entire h & r meshpucha ( la familia)

[Sara (Pal2Pal)]

Ivory Coast: aid workers find 1,000 bodies in Duekoue

What the hell is going on anyway? The whole world is going nuts.

[narciso]

Seriously, what that's the word, I'm looking for, neither of these characters, Oattara or
Gagbo, can be trusted, more than one could throw them.

[Ignatz]

--"No Blood for Cocoa" doesn't have the same ring either,--

Heh.

[clarice]

-"No Blood for Cocoa" doesn't have the same ring either

Speak for yourself. It does for me.

[cathyf]

On another aspect of Obama's story, is there ever an explanation as to why Stanley Ann went to Washington and registered for school there rather than go back to Boston with her so-called husband/baby daddy and register for school there?

As near as I can figure out, the timeline went something like this:

Obama born in Hawaii, Aug, 1961.

2-3 weeks later, Stanley Ann leaves Hawaii for college in Washington.

For the next 2 semesters (Fall 61, Spring 62) Barack Sr. is a student at the University of Hawaii, Stanley Ann is a student at the University of Washington, and Barack Jr. lives in Hawaii with Grandma and Grandpa.

At the end of the school year, June 1962, Barack Sr. graduates and leaves for Boston and Stanley Ann returns to Hawaii to transfer into the University of Hawaii in Spring 1963. She met Lolo Soetero there and married him in 1965, and he left when he graduated in 1966.

At some point between 1962 when Stanley Ann returned to Hawaii, and 1967 when Stanley Ann and Barry decamped to Indonesia to join Soetero, Stanley Ann resumed her responsibilities as Barry's mother.

In mid-1971 Barry went back to Hawaii to live with his grandparents. His mother and sister arrived in 1972 and stayed until 1975, when they went back to Indonesia.

[cathyf]

-"No Blood for Cocoa" doesn't have the same ring either

Speak for yourself. It does for me.

You tell 'em, sistah!

[jimmyk]

U.S. officials are becoming increasingly resigned to the possibility of a protracted stalemate in Libya

Now there's a shocker. Jump into the middle of a civil war with limited forces and no clear goal--who would have believed both sides wouldn't just immediately lay down their arms and hug each other?

Hit, that's good news. Not my business, but I hope she can get a second opinion. Back surgery is not something to rush into.

[Sara (Pal2Pal)]

For the next 2 semesters (Fall 61, Spring 62) Barack Sr. is a student at the University of Hawaii, Stanley Ann is a student at the University of Washington, and Barack Jr. lives in Hawaii with Grandma and Grandpa.

I thought she had the baby with her? I think I remember reading something to that effect, but I don't remember what or where.

[Sara (Pal2Pal)]

Hmmm. Watching a Science show that just showed a chimp troop hunting down and killing a monkey for its meat. According to the show, chimpanzees and humans are the only two primates that hunt and kill for meat. The question: what drives the chimps to hunt for meat since meat is not required in their diet of mostly vegetative food? Answer: Politics and sex.

Today's headlines anyone?

[clarice]

Yes, Barack was with his mother when she went to school in Seattle. His parents "separation" is no big mystery. There is in fact no record of their ever having lived together anywhere nor of any marriage. In Dreams (p.26) Obama says he found the newspaper interview of his dad about his heading off to Harvard and noted there was no mention of the Messiah nor his mother by Barack .

J Pod in Contentions:
There’s a lot more throat-clearing and argle-bargle about the necessity for investigations and the need for balance and the like, but the simple fact is this: That Richard Goldstone did not know in 2009 that Hamas is a terrorist monstrosity which functions parasitically off civilian populaces while Israel is a beacon of war-fighting restraint in a manner practically unknown in the course of human history suggests even more plainly than the report itself that he is a dupe, a fool, a clown, and a worldwide embarrassment. Not to mention a special kind of reprehensible and appalling figure of inglorious, hideous shame to his own people through the delivery and promulgation of a false document that helped anti-Semites everywhere feel themselves justified.

_______

Niters. The international stench is really overwhelming isn't it? And we pay for most of this terrorist, kleptomaniacal carp.

[Sara (Pal2Pal)]

Team O Rolls Out Another 129 Obamacare Waivers – Half Are to Unions

[jimmyk]

there was no mention of the Messiah nor his mother by Barack

I haven't focused a lot on these issues, but I do find the Frank Marshall Davis paternity hypothesis pretty compelling. It explains a lot of the behavior of BO Sr and "son," and Barry looks a lot more like FMD than BO Sr. And it explains why they don't want the actual birth certificate coming to light.

[bulcrack]

Facebbok for Lybia,Twitter for Egypt.Google for ME.

[MJW]

I noticed a comment about me by Walter, so I thought I ought to drop in and say hello.

Walter, you can quote my comments all you want -- I generously relinquish my copyright.

BTW, I'm actually a "he" not a "she." That's not the first time my comments have been assumed to be from a female. Must be something in my writing style. Also, I'm not, as Ignatz suggested, a lawyer. I try not to mention that too often on law blogs like Volokh Conspiracy, where the opinions of non-lawyers are not, shall we say, generally held in high regard.

I noticed on the previous thread Walter mentioned Milwaukee Journal Sentinel v. Department of Administration a Wisconsin Supreme Court case that's supposed by many to be contrary to State ex rel. La Follette v. Stitt. I thought I'd explain why, in my non-lawyer opinion, it's not.

Stitt held that the court wouldn't examine the process by which a bill was passed unless the process violated a constitutional requirement. For example, the bill in Stitt was supposedly passed without being referred to a particular committee as required by a Wisconsin statute, but the court refused to determine whether it was. However, the court did invalidate a law that was passed without recording the yeas and nays, because that's required by the state constitution.

In Milwaukee Journal Sentinel, the legislature ratified a collective bargaining agreement that exempted some records from Wisconsin's open records law. The ratification was completed by enacting a bill that referred to the agreement, but didn't include its text. When a newspaper sued to obtain some of the exempted records, the court had to decide whether the open records law still applied.

Wisconsin law requires that all laws be made by bills passed by the legislature, and published in order to give the public proper notice of the law. A statute also required that any changes in the law made by a collective bargaining agreement must be enacted as part of the ratifying bill or by a companion bill. The statute is merely a codification of the constitutional requirement.

The court decided that the open records law still applied to the records, because the changes to the law hadn't been properly enacted. In particular, it held that merely including a reference to the agreement in the ratifying bill wasn't sufficient for the amendments to the open records bill to be published within the meaning of the constitution.

Two aspects distinguish the case from Stitt and from the present open meeting case. First, Milwaukee Journal Sentinel was about the result of the legislative process, not the process itself. The court didn't need to look at the legislative history of the ratification bill; it only needed to look at the content of the bill that was passed. Second, publication is a constitutional requirement.

The defendants argued that the power of the legislature to make its own rules extends to the power to enact the provisions of bills by reference if they so choose. The court rejected the argument, but what they rejected isn't the principle that they won't interfere with the legislative process; instead, they rejected the notion that the determining the validity of final form of the legislation falls within the rule-making power.

[Threadkiller]

Clarice says:

His alleged “Certification of Live Birth” is not approved by any federal authority as an official source of demographic data or medical verification of his birth.

Sara responds:

BTW, one of the things I love most about genealogy is the thrill of the hunt. I love both hunting down the information and I really love laying out all kinds of disparate info and begin to see patterns or little clues that lead me on to the next thing. And there is absolutely no high like the high you get when you finally find that last piece that suddenly opens the floodgates.

Tee hee, I guess girls will be girls when it come to gossip.

My high comes from a self-admission that BO was born a dual citizen and that the Constitution does not allow dual citizens to be President.

From Barack’s website:

“When Barack Obama Jr. was born on Aug. 4,1961, in Honolulu, Kenya was a British colony, still part of the United Kingdom’s dwindling empire. As a Kenyan native, Barack Obama Sr. was a British subject whose citizenship status was governed by The British Nationality Act of 1948. That same act governed the status of Obama Sr.‘s children.

From congressional record that has never been overturned or debated to the contrary:

“All from other lands, who by the terms of [congressional] laws and a compliance with their provisions become naturalized, are adopted citizens of the United States; all other persons born within the Republic, of parents owing allegiance to no other sovereignty, are natural born citizens. Gentleman can find no exception to this statement touching natural-born citizens except what is said in the Constitution relating to Indians.”

Oh well, with enough of your careful research we may learn if Timmy ever kissed Sue (I can’t wait to find out), but until then you will still miss the point.

Ps. Why is this so difficult to grasp?

[Sara (Pal2Pal)]

Well TK, despite your snark, let me say that as far as I can determine, Barack Jr was never a legitimate child of Barack Sr and would not be even if some kind of marriage record between Stanley Ann and Sr were certified true blue and DNA tests were available. Sr was already married to someone else, so even if Jr. is Sr's son, he cannot be a legitimate son under the law unless Sr formally adopted him after birth, which, of course, he did not.

Oh and for the record, a BTW is just that. It was not my response to what you quoted from Clarice.

[Jane]

Nice too see you MJW. And i agree with Walter about your brilliance.

[EnquiringMindsWantToKnow]

Wait, but if Frank Marshal Davis was the father, than Barack could be a "natural born citizen" and legit that way, it would just make the whole narrative of his life a lie. Do I have that right? Aren't there porn pics of Obama's mother that she posed for for Frank Marshal Davis, and don't they think he may be the "Pop" from the only existing poem we know Obama wrote. What would be her motive to falsely name a different father? So weird.

[MayBee]

Could Obama have been born in Washington and still have the Hawaii certification? I wonder if stanley's parents didn't pack her off to hide her pregnancy. On the campaign trail did Obama ever play up his tie to Washington? I know he did to Kansas and Indiana, both stretches.

[Sara (Pal2Pal)]

Seems odd to send her off to her old stomping grounds and where she went to high school, if hiding the pregnancy was the goal. They surely knew more people in Washington than in Hawaii. The family didn't move to Hawaii until after Stanley Ann graduated from high school in June 1960 and she was pregnant by November of 1960. That is barely enough time to unpack.

[Jake]

I just watched Geraldo Rivera and the show was INSANE.

He kept going on about the Lockabie Bombing like it happened yesterday and he threw in the Berlin Disco Bombing too, in order to get us really upset. You know that bad Kadaffi did that he kept repeating.

Yeah, I remember all that. I remember that when IT ACTUALLY HAPPENED. And look I can hold a grudge as long as anyone but her is what ELSE I remember.

I remember that the best President in the 20th Century bombed him for all that and as a result he stopped messing with us.

I ALSO THOUGH remember that the FRENCH would not let us use their air space for the bombing. You know, the same French that we are helping now. I also remember, and this is quite recent that we caught one of the bombers of that plane, and allowed the Scots to convict him, BUT THE SCOTS LET HIM GO FREE! You know the same UK that we are allied with now.

So, yeah if you want us to be angry about that plane, you know something that happened a generation ago, yeah, I am angry. But because of my anger I want the US planes to stick a missile lock to the damn French Planes and say - HERE'S YOUR AIRSPACE - BOOM!

And we shouldn't even think about helping the UK on anything remotely having to do with Libya until they turn over to us the people who released the bomber and put them in Gitmo forever!

The truth is that I also remember something that we call in the states 9-11. And that was done, at least we are told and I do believe because I am no truther by a group called AL QUADA. And it's this Al Quada that we are giving weapons in Libya and no doubt these weapons will find their way into Afghanistan and Iraq to KILL our soldiers there.

THIS IS INSANE. And no 20 year grudge is going to blind me to that. We are funding to kill our own soldiers!

Look, it's the Europeans OIL. That is why the French didn't let us fly through their airspace back then. That is why the Scots let the bomber go recently. If they want this war, then IT'S THEIRS.

IT'S NOT OURS. NOT EVEN AFTER WHAT HAPPENED BACK THEN, ESPECIALLY AFTER WHAT happened back then.

Like I said, if anything what happened back then makes me want to attack FRANCE! DAMN THEIR AIRSPACE!

[DGS]

Rocco,

We almost bought Issac Davis' house when it was for sale in 1991. We decided not to buy it when we found out how restrictive the Historical Preservation Society is in our town.

[clarice]

http://www.americanthinker.com/2011/04/the_unified_theory_of_obama.html

**********

I think the theory that Davis is his father has a great deal going for it. Davis , of course, was married with a child at the time. His wife was a white heiress from Chicago.

The only poem we know for sure Obama wrote-in fact, one of the very few things we know he wrote--is a stupid one about a monkey. The poem about Pop, Cashill argues with some merit may well have been written by the old commie pedophile *Davis) himself.

MayBee, as I understand it, he could be born anywhere and still get the COLB if his family registered his birth in Hawaii.

We don't know why Stanley returned to Seattle so soon after giving birth but Barak were the father he had a history of alcoholism and abusive behavior; if davs were the father it might have been decided that she should leave so that his wife didn't find out. Who knows? The Duhams seem a weird lot.

[clarice]

***but IF Barak were the father, he had a history of alcoholism and abusive behavior; If DAVIS were the father, it might have been decided that she should leave so that his wife didn't find out. Who knows? The Duhams seem a weird lot.*******

[Pops]

My children were born in Virginia, but my parents paid to have their births published in our hometown newspaper in Pennsylvania.

That doesn't make them born in Pennsylvania....