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July 20, 2011

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Melinda Romanoff

Oh, you mean that, given the same outstanding mortgage balance, a lower interest rate still has value.

Correct?

MayBee

That's not a recommendation from me. My first mortgage was 14% adjustable. This is nothing.

Mine, too, was quite high.
The thing is, if the interest rates go that high again, the deduction will still be capped.
What the interest rates are right now doesn't really matter.

MayBee

Yes, mel. Sorry- I'm obviously not a financial writer.

Melinda Romanoff

Nobody needs to be a "financial writer" to make clear and concise points. That was the only "fuzzy" one, so I pointed it out, that's all.

The twist on that specific point is discerning the bank's willingness to make that adjustment, without taking a loss in some form.

If you take away the deduction, where is the economic incentive to own real estate, other than as a landlord? You end up back in some feudal split in economic opportunity and no risk taking. Problematic at best, autocratic at worst.

MayBee

Nobody needs to be a "financial writer" to make clear and concise points. That was the only "fuzzy" one, so I pointed it out, that's all.

xoxox

Melinda Romanoff

{red cheeks w/grin}

Texas Mom 2010

We refinanced at less than 4% with 15 year loan last fall but losing the mortgage interest deduction will really hurt us tax wise. Not quite in top bracket but oldest child in college and can't deduct his expenses even though he is autistic and needs extra tutoring/organization help. Can't get any state help with that but they were willing to hire an employment agency to find him a minimum wage job, go to his training and help him during his first months on job (didn't need last part) also willing to pay for his gas to job, which we declined. But no help with college even with high SAT scores ( higher than mine and MIT offered me a scholarship back in the day) so instead of helping him with college where he could pay a ton of taxes after he graduates, they will help him with a minimum wage job, it is nuts.

But since I can't deduct anything else, I really need the mortgage deduction because it helps us pay for all the costs of a higher education for our oldest son. /rant off

Do our bozos in Congress ever think about the human consequences of what their idiot bills do?

Captain Hate

If you take away the deduction, where is the economic incentive to own real estate, other than as a landlord? You end up back in some feudal split in economic opportunity and no risk taking. Problematic at best, autocratic at worst.

That's a great point which nobody seems to be making. Right now we're at the point where we have home ownership by some people who are extremely ill-equipped to be in that position strictly because of politics. To over-react to that would be running a huge risk of creating the scenario you did.

Danube of Thought

"where is the economic incentive to own real estate"

As an investment (with risk, like most), and also the degree of control you have as the owner, as opposed to being a renter.

Jane

If you take away the deduction, where is the economic incentive to own real estate, other than as a landlord?

Equity

Melinda Romanoff

DoT & Jane-

From where I sit, the present value of cash on hand would be a thumb on the rent side of the scale in the rent vs. buy calculation, until the price of real estate became too cheap. Which is what I believe would occur.

Is the deduction market distorting? Yes, as would its elimination.

MayBee

And Jane- I shouldn't have just said Oy. I admit this proposal has me quite concerned.

MayBee

If you take away the deduction, where is the economic incentive to own real estate, other than as a landlord?

Equity

The millions of people underwater currently don't have equity. And if the deduction phase-out reduces value further, as I suspect it will, equity will be further reduced.

MayBee

And Jane- I shouldn't have just said Oy. I admit this proposal has me quite concerned.

OMG, writing that makes me remember when Al Gore said, "No need to get snippy". Ahh. Good times.

Jane

You guys keep assuming I support that change. I never said that.

Assuming the market ever comes back - and it won't unless we allow it to completely crash, people will own houses as a vehicle to accumulate equity, which makes it a good investment.

Danube of Thought

I don't believe anyone has proposed the elimination of the deduction. A decreasing amount would be allowed as yougoabove $500K.

I think the present value of cash in hand has to be weighed regardless of the deductibility of themortgage interest; it's just that the arithmetic comes out differently and would indicate "rent" more frequently. I would never buy real property if I didn't expect a pretty nice long-term return in any event. As a homeowner I can attest to the great benefit of being able to add to or otherwise modify the house and the grounds.

MayBee

I don't believe anyone has proposed the elimination of the deduction. A decreasing amount would be allowed as yougoabove $500K.

I have heard various proposal, but the fact that it will only be reduced and not eliminated doesn't change much for the people/homes for whom it will be decreased. The effects would still be the same.

MayBee

Jane- I disagree with what I thought was your assessment that it was a good time to do it.
But I shouldn't have gotten snippy.

Jane

Maybee,

You aren't capable of getting snippy.

Extraneus

I shouldn't have just said Oy.

You can say Oy any time you damn well please, MayBee, and don't let anybody tell you otherwise.

Danube of Thought

There's a good article on the tax proposal by Janet Novack of Forbes at Lucianne.com (can't link).

Jane

Oh and my only point is that if you are going to do it, it is presumably better when you have a 4% mortgage than a 14% mortgage. The 14% mortgages were under Carter - and the severe drop in housing prices put lots of people under water. The difference was the requirement to put 20% down so everyone had some skin in the game.

bgates

The millions of people underwater currently don't have equity.

Those people have less of an economic incentive to own real estate, which might be just as well, because from a strictly financial perspective, they're not very good at it.

Danube of Thought

Via Hot Air:

"A new report out yesterday from The Heritage Foundation shows private sector job creation dropped dramatically almost immediately after President Barack Obama signed the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act (a.k.a. Obamacare) into law.

"From the recession’s low point in January 2009 until April 2010, when Obamacare went into effect, the private sector created about 67,600 jobs a month. After the president signed PPACA into law, that number slowed to a meager 6,400 jobs a month — a more than 90 percent decrease or less than one-tenth the previous rate."

Jane

WOW DOt

Captain Hate

Yep; remember those Town Halls when Bammy kept saying that nobody was hiring because they were concerned about the uncertainty of health care costs they'd have to provide and how BammyCare would resolve that. Pure freakin' genius.

jimmyk

Ignatz and Rick,
The response I always get to those statistics about share of income taxes paid by the top 1% or top 10%--and I think it's a valid point--is that some of the increase may be because their share of income is higher. That's certainly true if you use an income cutoff like $200K. But it's probably true if you use a percentile. I haven't had a chance to look at the data. My guess is there's still a relative increase, but the statistic we need is something like: The share of income going to the top 1% went from x% to y%, but their share of taxes went from z% to w%, and see whether the jump from z to w is clearly larger than that from x to y. Sorry to get all technical, but maybe I'll try to look at the data later and see if I can get that.

jimmyk

On the idea of phasing out mortgage interest deductibility: This is yet another sly way to make taxes more progressive, as if they haven't gotten progressive enough. All these "phaseouts" of deductions effectively increase marginal tax rates.

And I don't think the mortgage interest deduction is such a loophole. As we've discussed here, all interest used to be deductible (until the late 80s sometime), and that made sense because we pay taxes on interest earnings, we should at least be able to deduct interest expenses.

In my preferred tax system, interest income wouldn't be taxed at all, and then eliminating the mortgage interest deduction might be ok.

The real subsidy to homeownership is the fact that implicit rental income is untaxed. If you rent, the income to the landlord is taxed. If you own, you rent from yourself tax free. I'm not advocating making it taxable (I'd rather make the landlord income tax-free), but it does give an advantage to owning over renting.

jimmyk

After the president signed PPACA into law, that number slowed to a meager 6,400 jobs a month — a more than 90 percent decrease or less than one-tenth the previous rate.

But it sure was important to rush that through in the depths of a recession. Actually, maybe it will turn into a blessing that they did that. I think the left sometimes gets away with stuff like this more easily in a booming economy.

Sara (Pal2Pal)

The problem is that it is average middle class families, particularly military families, who will be hurt the most by a mortgage deduction loss. It is a whopping tax hike on them. Add in the loss of the charitable deduction and you have major, and I mean major, problems for the average tax payer who, unfortunately, lives from paycheck to paycheck, with a mortgage on a house they probably bought 10 or 15 or more years ago that is financed at 8-11%, which was the going VA rate then.

I heard one of the "Gang" say last night, not to worry, the mortgage deduction will get added back in, when they "fix" the bill after it passes." For some reason that gives no comfort.

glasater

If you rent, the income to the landlord is taxed.

That's true Jimmyk but no fica taxes are paid on that income.

Danube of Thought

Priceless video for any who may have missed it.

jimmyk

I heard one of the "Gang" say last night, not to worry, the mortgage deduction will get added back in, when they "fix" the bill after it passes." For some reason that gives no comfort.

Did they really say that, Sara? That's pathetic--not for the specifics of the deduction, but it just confirms they are playing games to get the debt ceiling raised, and aren't serious about anything else. That should be broadcast all over.

As for your point, I wouldn't think the $400,000 mortgage limit would be so relevant for the people you describe, but I don't know the details of the proposal--whether it would be phased in, whether if you have a $401,000 mortgage you still can deduct 99.75% of your interest, etc. And anyone who still is carrying an 8-11% mortgage needs some serious financial counseling.

Clarice

Heh, DoT. why does anyone watch these airheads anyway?

Extraneus

Priceless is right. Heh.

Ignatz

--The response I always get to those statistics about share of income taxes paid by the top 1% or top 10%--and I think it's a valid point--is that some of the increase may be because their share of income is higher.--

That's because wealth is always a zero sum game to lefties.

Danube of Thought

Jimmyk, a while back there was an OED report floating around showing the ratios of percentage tax paid to percentage share of income earned, and the US ranked highest in the world.

Sara (Pal2Pal)

Jimmyk: Maybe not in all of the country, but out here in California, where there is heavy concentration of military, a $400,000 house is practically ghetto land, more so a couple of years ago, when the mortgages were written and funded. That said, the first I've heard a cap mentioned is here today. If there is a cap, then maybe it isn't as bad as it seems at first glance.

narciso

Everyone do a Nelson Muntz at David Brooks:

Over the past months, Republicans enjoyed enormous advantages. Opinion polls showed that voters are eager to reduce the federal debt, and they want to do it mostly but not entirely through spending cuts.
There was a Democratic president eager to move to the center.

Ignatz

Ha-ha.

Danube of Thought

Here's the OECD data I was referring to. In the US, the top 10% earn 33.5% of the income, but pay 45.1% of the income tax. Highest ratio (1.35) among the 24 member nations. In Sweden the ratio is 1.0; in France it is 1.1.

Clarice

RCP reports the president will now accept a short term increase in the debt limit. Sounds like he's really in the driver's seat.

jimmyk

Thanks, DoT, do you have a link? It would also be useful to know how that's changed over the years. I'll bet it went up during the GWB years when he supposedly gave all those tax cuts "to the rich."

Surprising that it's so low in Sweden and France especially since they have a VAT as well (which is pretty much a flat tax).

Sara (Pal2Pal)

A teacher held a sales contest. After students got up and told how they sold girl scout cookies and magazines, making $30 to $45, it was Johnny:

Then it was Little Johnny’s turn. Oh no. The teacher held her breath. Little Johnny walked to the front of the classroom and dumped a box full of cash on the teacher’s desk. “$12,467,” he said.

“$12,467!” cried the teacher, “What in the world were you selling?”

“Toothbrushes,” said Little Johnny.

“Toothbrushes!” echoed the teacher, “How could you possibly sell enough tooth brushes to make that much money?”

“I found the busiest corner in town,” said Little Johnny. “I set up a Dip & Chip stand and gave everybody who walked by a free sample.”
They all said the same thing, “Hey, this tastes like dog crap!”
Then I would say,"It is dog crap. Wanna’ buy a toothbrush?”

“I used the Obama approach of giving you something shitty for free, and then making you pay to get the taste out of your mouth.”

Danube of Thought

Jimmyk, I thought I had created a link but I didn't, and I'm not at the computer now. I found it by Googling something like "OECD report tax share income."

Extraneus

Here's one from the Tax Foundation, jimmy.

Table 1, updated in 2010, says:

The top 1% earned 20% of total AGI, paid 38% of total income tax.

The top 10% earned 46% of total AGI, paid 70% of total income tax.

Old Lurker

JimmyK: "The share of income going to the top 1% went from x% to y%, but their share of taxes went from z% to w%, and see whether the jump from z to w is clearly larger than that from x to y. Sorry to get all technical, but maybe I'll try to look at the data later and see if I can get that."

I think one can no longer ignore the taxes that will be required to service and repay the federal debt. At $14-16T and rising, you just know that servicing that debt and reducing it will fall on the same top x% and their estates. Now that that debt is so large, Jimmy's W% should be adjusted upwards for the share of debt that will be serviced by top taxpayers.

DebinNC

AP: "In a sign of the closing window for action, the White House said for the first time that Obama would accept a short-term extension of the debt limit, but only if a broader deal was already in place and required more time - perhaps a few days - to get through Congress."
.............................................
I don't see why Boehner et al don't take the Cato folks' advice and pass a stop-gap $2T debt ceiling raise with generally accepted $2T in cuts targeted by Obama's Boyles-Simpson Commission, and let Obama veto that reasonable solution if he dares.

Danube of Thought

The data I presented are from a site called carpe diem.

Extraneus

From the same table, the top 10% paid a total of $721 billion in taxes. In order to eliminate the deficit, they'd have to more than triple that, and pay a total of about 60% of their income in taxes.

As if.

Mikey

Correct me if I am wrong, once the president expresses the desire for a short term deal doesn't he now own the debt ceiling.?

jimmyk

I'll look for it. From Rick's tables, I got the following for 2000 vs. 2007 (I tried to pick comparable years--I figured 2008 would be unrepesentative): For AGI $200,000 and above:

2000: 26.1% of AGI, 45.4% of income tax
2007: 31.7% of AGI, 54.3% of income tax

I'd call the increase in the share of tax paid bigger than the increase in AGI, but it's arguable. Anyway, it would be better to use percentiles than income cutoffs.

Extraneus

Yeah, the table I cited was 2008 data, updated in 2010. Still eye-popping, though.

Ben Franklin

Hey Danny....

How'z about we put those tells to work and make this. exercise in futility, profitable for one of us......

What say you? I'll make a wager with you ten to one, your identity politics is absolute hogwash.

That's $10,000 to you if you are right, $1,000 to me if you are wrong about the Pitzer Dana Ward being, yours truly.

It's time to shit or get off the pot..........

Ben Franklin

In spite of a dew point of 80% coupled with triple-digit temps, DoT's Convention of salient facts, presses on...............


Nebraska manure expo goes on despite stifling heat

David Hendee
Reuters US Online Report Domestic News

Jul 20, 2011 16:54 EDT

OMAHA, Neb (Reuters) - What's your idea of a fun outdoor activity on a day with temperatures about 95 degrees (Fahrenheit, 35 degrees Celsius)?


How about a manure show?

Norfolk, Nebraska, the hometown of the late U.S. television personality Johnny Carson, hosted on Wednesday the 2011 North American Manure Expo.

The trade show was billed as the only training event in the world that spreads animal waste to demonstrate the latest advances in manure management technologies.

Managing manure is a big issue on farms. A 300-cow dairy operation produces an average of 8,725 gallons (33,000 liters) of waste per day, or more than 3.1 million gallons (11.7 million liters) a year, according to Clemson University researchers.

Manure spread on cropland provides important nutrients to soil and plants.

The expo was rich in material. Attendees could test their knowledge at a "Manure Scene Investigation." Or they could watch history be made when feedlot manure is applied below the surface of the soil for the first time using a device developed by U.S. Agriculture Department researchers in Arkansas for poultry litter.

Antique manure spreaders slung waste in demonstrations of how far the industry has progressed.

"There's something for everyone, including anyone that is concerned for the environment and wants to know how livestock producers are handling manure to avoid water contamination," said Leslie Johnson, project coordinator for the Animal Manure Management work group at the University of Nebraska-Lincoln.

More than 50 exhibitors from across the United States and Canada displayed and demonstrated all types and sizes of manure handling equipment including manure and fertilizer spreaders, manure incorporation equipment, GPS equipment for manure application and manure storage options.


Extraneus

I don't see why Boehner et al don't take the Cato folks' advice and pass a stop-gap $2T debt ceiling raise with generally accepted $2T in cuts targeted by Obama's Boyles-Simpson Commission

Maybe that's their strategy, Deb, and the Balanced Budget Amendment is just a bargaining chip -- something they can say they had to compromise on and drop until after 2012, since Obama and the Democrats refused to consider it.

Extraneus

Rush made a good point today, citing the 116-degree Washington DC "heat index" headlines. All of a sudden, this government-defined metric is being featured instead of the relatively common 100-degree or so actual summer temperatures, which have less shock value.

The "heat index" is some combination of temperature and humidity.

Is humidity now a tenet of the AGW religion?

Ben Franklin

In conjunction with Joshua Tucker’s post below, it seemed worth noting a quote tucked into David Leonhardt’s column in today’s NY Times. In it, David Plouffe, President Obama’s political adviser, claims that “The average American does not view the economy through the prism of GDP or unemployment rates or even monthly jobs numbers. People won’t vote based on the unemployment rate. They’re going to vote based on: ‘how do I feel about my own situation?…’”

The question Plouffe raises is not quite, as Leonhardt frames it, whether the economy matters to the president’s reelection. Rather it is how it matters. Do voters look at national numbers? – on the grounds that a rising tide floats all boats – or do they only look at their own water level? Plouffe, for good reason, wants the latter to hold true. The great intuitive political scientist Bill Clinton said something similar back in 1996: “Those big numbers don’t mean much to people; they really want to know how they are doing in their communities—‘how is it on my block?’”

This debate – which has been framed (by Kinder and Kiewiet in 1979, for instance) as “sociotropic” versus “pocketbook” voting – is hardly new to regular readers of this page (see, for example, here, and here.) The problem for Plouffe is that, as Steve Ansolabehere, Marc Meredith, and Erik Snowberg, note in the Monkey Cage post linked above: “The literature on economic voting notes that voters’ subjective evaluations of the overall state of the economy are correlated with vote choice, whereas personal economic experiences are not.”

Note Ansolabeher et al’s stress on the word “subjective.” How voters interpret the state of the national economy clearly matters. Still, Bill Clinton was probably right. Only he was right in 1992

http://themonkeycage.org/blog/2011/07/20/floating-all-boats-or-just-mine/

Threadkiller

"Gang of Six" was the original name for Fox's "The Five". After Beckel and the dark haired gal ate one of the hosts, the change was made.

Ps. This is one of the worst shows on Fox.

narciso

It's like Red Eye, but without the intentional
humor.

MarkO

TK, it's unwatchable.

Ben Franklin

This is the stupidest decision I've heard POST-hacking.....

He will get more conversational.........

http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2011/jul/20/glenn-mulcaire-legal-fees

News International has terminated "with immediate effect" its arrangement to pay the legal fees of Glenn Mulcaire, the private investigator at the centre of the phone-hacking scandal.

The move follows evidence given by James Murdoch to the Commons culture, media and sport select committee, when he told MPs he was "as surprised as you are" when he discovered "certain legal fees were paid to Mr Mulcaire" by News of the World publisher.

The News Corporation management and standards committee met on Wednesday morning and decided to terminate the arrangement.

It said in a statement: "News Corporation's management and standards committee met this morning and has decided to terminate the arrangement to pay the legal fees of Glenn Mulcaire with immediate effect.

"The MSC is authorised to co-operate fully with all relevant investigations and inquiries in the News of the World phone hacking case, police payments and all other related issues across News International as well as conducting its own inquiries where appropriate."

Mulcaire was jailed for intercepting voicemails on phones used by aides to Princes William and Harry at the behest of the News of the World, has run up a legal bill of hundreds of thousands of pounds as he battles a string of ongoing phone-hacking lawsuits.

He worked under contract for the News of the World until 2006 – and took careful notes of who at the newspaper commissioned his services.

Danube of Thought

I wouldn't trust your proof, Dana, and if I lost the bet I'd welsh on it anyway. Time to shit in your hat.

Ben Franklin

Prove it for yourself. You don't need me......

But I think you've already had your doubts, but that admitting your wrong thing............that's a bridge too far for the Danube of Doublethink.

Melinda Romanoff

Mulcaire was convicted of planting coke on a "problem", in conjunction with a dirty cop.

A bit different, and no one seems to mention the depths of police corruption implicated in this across the entire swath of Fleet Street.

A rush to judgement? Hmm.

Rick Ballard

"Anyway, it would be better to use percentiles than income cutoffs."

jimmyk,

That's true for certain types of economic analysis but it doesn't comport with the President's "anybody making over $200K deserves to be mugged" political swill.

The absolute number of returns filed showing income over $200K grew by 41% during the Presidency of George Bush. The total population grew by 7%. The Bush tax cuts didn't just generate more revenue, they generated a lot of new entrepreneurs.

Hussein Obama will be renowned only for the huge increase in the number of individuals dependent upon the taxes extracted from each entrepreneur and for having reduced the number of entrepreneurs so significantly that the dependents which he is creating every day are going to be much worse off than the dependents were under Bush.

This President is the apotheosis of lose-lose.

narciso

Didn't the Guardian, have to apologize for one of their most recent claims about the hacking, when does the lives cut short by Assange's flagrant disclosure of those who aided us, against the Taliban and AQ. That has much greater consequences, it's a valuable
resource, however there is a reason why diplomatic cables are kept confidential,

Extraneus

According to the Tax Foundation tables:

2001: Top 10% of earners made $2.7T = 43% of total AGI, paid $576B = 65% of total taxes.

2007: Top 10% of earners made $4.2T = 48% of total AGI, paid $794B = 71% of total taxes.

One could take note of the fact that their share of total AGI increased by 5%, but their share share of total taxes increased by 6%.

Sen. Rubio: "We Don't Need New Taxes, We Need New Taxpayers"

narciso

So, he's more like one of Francis Urquart's operatives, who was 'dispatched' in due course.

Extraneus

(That was from Tables 3, 4, 5 and 6.)

Ben Franklin

It's not a rush to judgement. There is no judgement, as yet, except the judgement most people use in their own 'smell test'.

This is the exposed nerve of News Media coziness with law enforcement and government.

"Embedding" has the root word associated with infidelity.

Danube of Thought

"But I think you've already had your doubts"

Think again.

Ben Franklin

The Rise of Pro-Democracy Journalism
July 18, 2011
The old idea of journalism – arming the people with facts they need for democracy to work – has been betrayed by major U.S. news outlets, like the New York Times and Washington Post, which have instead aligned themselves with national power under the guise of “objectivity.” But Nozomi Hayase sees the Internet as a more democratic hope.

By Nozomi Hayase

July 18, 2011

There is much controversy over the future of journalism. The discourse surrounding WikiLeaks in its relation to traditional media has become the eye of the storm.

Both the New York Times and The Guardian have come out strongly critical of WikiLeaks and Julian Assange. Bill Keller, executive editor of the New York Times has refused to refer to Assange as a journalist.

In an interview on PBS, Keller described Assange as an activist with an agenda to promote, carrying an ideology of transparency, claiming that his aim is to embarrass the U.S. government. Recently, Keller’s view on this topic has shifted a bit. He came close to admitting WikiLeaks is a journalistic entity.

Yet, he distanced himself from the non-profit whistle-blower site, saying “it still wasn’t ‘my kind of news organization,’ and that if Assange was acting as a journalist, ‘I don’t regard him as a kindred spirit — he’s not the kind of journalist I am’” [as cited in Ingram, 2011].

There are various possible motives at work here. American mainstream media’s lack of support and even hostility towards WikiLeaks could indicate simple jealousy of WikiLeaks’ accomplishments and also may come from sensing a threat to the familiar way of practicing “journalism.”

Yet, the debate surrounding WikiLeaks’ status as a journalistic organization and the question of whether First Amendment protections cover the unauthorized release of sensitive or secret government documents bring out a larger issue. It urges us to reexamine what freedom of speech and the press really is.

http://consortiumnews.com/2011/07/18/the-rise-of-pro-democracy-journalism/

Melinda Romanoff

That's different than the seeming intent of prior posts. A Brzenski echoing DNC talking points is just as thrilling, I suppose.

Ben Franklin

"Think again"

Brilliant retort. It has me totally revamping my approach to debate.

I think you should re-name yourself, "Bright Blue Danube of DoubleThink"

Ben Franklin

"seeming" intent. Yeah. A lot of people here seem locked into
their opinion of me.

Danube of Thought

"It has me totally revamping my approach to debate."

Here's a bulletin for you: you're not debating.

Melinda Romanoff

Ruts in the track.

Ben Franklin

btw;

The Hayase piece touches on what I've said re; MSM and Wikileaks.

They (media) saw WL as threat to their turf, as conscience, no doubt pricks them for failing in their investigative traditions.

If you go back as far as Tunisia and listen to the Media decry the
WikiLeaks box of pandora, then watch them go silent when the Arab Spring sprung, you have an inkling.

Ben Franklin

More and better genius.............blanks are your preferred ammo.

Got anything else? No? then gfy.

Danube of Thought

It is clear to me that merely controlling the House is insufficient to get genuine deficit and spending reduction. It's going to take one more election, and if the GOP doesn't get both the Senate and the WH we are permanently consigned to European GDP growth and unemployment. It could be very close; I think there are a lot of people in this country who think that is just fine.

glasater

I find it very upsetting to learn Dennis Kucinich is moving to my beautiful state.

Threadkiller

MarkO, narciso, I am pleased I am not the only one who gave that show a try. No wonder Jane caught Chris Matthews the other day, with this as the competition.

Captain Hate

I find it very upsetting to learn Dennis Kucinich is moving to my beautiful state.

How is the little carpetbagger being regarded? If you want I'll do some research and try and find a multi-part piece that the alt-media did on what a race-baiting little worm he was when he was first getting his start on Cleveland's West Side. I guarantee you he can't make a name for himself without declaring war on somebody there; hopefully he and one of your homegrown dimwits like Patty Murray will destroy each other.

Sara (Pal2Pal)

The Five the worst show on television? Obviously you have never watched Tweety or Maddow or Schultz or Olbermann or Shep or a whole host of others. Beckel and Perino get too much face time compared to Greg Gutlfield, but that will equal out over time.

But the worst show, hardly.

Sara (Pal2Pal)

This is going to be my last day and evening at JOM for awhile. I can no longer put up with Danube of Thought and his constant childish baiting and nastiness. I wish you all a good rest of Summer and let's hope that the Tea Party wins out over some the squishes that seem to have bred in the swamp around here.

I appreciate the care and advice so many of you have offered over the years and I'll stay in touch through other venues.

Ben Franklin

sara;

I won't respond to DoT. You are needed here.

Captain Hate

Obviously you have never watched Tweety or Maddow

I went to some website today that wasn't where I usually go (not porn) and saw an embedded vid where it looked like some bratty young male was spouting off about something (sound muted); I scrolled down for what I guess I was looking for and when I came back the vid had ended and it was an MSLSD clip for Maddow. Has she been really laying on the butch lately?

Danube of Thought

Excelsior!

Threadkiller

Sara, if you are there, I said worst show on Fox.

I believe that to be true.

qrstuv

Is the 8:02 post really Sara?

MayBee

which might be just as well, because from a strictly financial perspective, they're not very good at it.

That's not necessarily true. A lot of investments go up and down in value, just as homes do.

Ignatz

--If you go back as far as Tunisia and listen to the Media decry the
WikiLeaks box of pandora, then watch them go silent when the Arab Spring sprung, you have an inkling.--

If Wikileaks gets the credit for the Arab Spring does it also get the blame if, as seems increasingly likely, that Spring turns into a long, hot, bloody Summer of marching Islamists in Tunisia, Libya, Yemen and Egypt and a massacre in Syria?

glasater

Captain-

Sorry to be late on this but my antennae is giving vibes Kucinich would set up residence on the West side of the state to run for governor.

Send me anything you want. You know how to reach me:-)

Thanks!

Granny

Late to the party, but if, as the AP is still reporting this evening, the Gang of Six proposal is the loss of tax deductions for health care, home ownership, charitable giving and retirement savings, I can't think of anything that could be better designed for breaking the backs of middle class families. NO NO NO

Ralph L

Has she been really laying on the butch lately?
I suspect she prefers the femme type.

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Wilson/Plame