Do Androids Dream Of Electric Sheep?

Do androids dream of electric sheep?  The most intriguing thing I read recently suggests they do; here is a NY Times book review on the puzzles of human consciousness:

[The author] begins with the curious case of color in dreams. When people today are asked whether they regularly dream in color, most say they do. But it was not always so. Back in the 1950s most said they dreamed in black and white. Presumably it can hardly be true that our grandparents had different brains that systematically left out the color we put in today. So this must be a matter of interpretation. Yet why such freedom about assigning color? Well, try this for an answer. Suppose that, not knowing quite what dreams are like, we tend to assume they must be like photographs or movies — pictures in the head. Then, when asked whether we dream in color we reach for the most readily available pictorial analogy. Understandably, 60 years ago this might have been black-and-white movies, while for most of us today it is the color version. But, here’s the thing: Neither analogy is necessarily the “right” one. Dreams don’t have to be pictures of any kind at all. They could be simply thoughts — and thoughts, even thoughts about color, are neither colored nor non-colored in themselves.

I think I am being told that dreams are a social construct.  If (IF!) the same phenomenon apples to androids, well, there is your answer.

Comments

[Chubby]

I was sure this was going to be a question about Google spyware

[Thomas Collins]

I dream in black and white, mostly black (when I do the endless falling dream, it is all black). I guess I should ditch my computer and go back to a typewriter.

[matt]

so what device did Dorothy use in Wizard of Oz, then? Where did the idea come from to go from B&W to color?

Perhaps some dreams are B&W and some in color?

[peter]

I don't foresee this as being one of the more popular threads.

[Threadkiller]

Dreams From My Processor

[Army of Davids]

"Watching him turn into Carter before our eyes"

Maureen Dowd

[Dave (in MA)]

Nightmares are in black and white.

[bgates]

Where did the idea come from to go from B&W to color?

What? The idea came from the fact that color film was available and they knew the transition would be a neat effect.

When I was dragged to see Titanic, there were two dopey kids sitting behind me, and during the scene where Jack does the charcoal drawing of what's her name, one kid said, "Why is the picture in black and white?" and his friend answered, "Because they didn't have color back then."

[Tom Maguire]

As another data point, when Martin Luther King said "I had a dream", he was talking about black and white...

[Threadkiller]

Are Ted Turner’s dreams “colorized”?

[Captain Hate]

I wonder if Ted ever watches Barbarella

[Charlie (Colorado)]

I think I am being told that dreams are a social construct.

I think you're being told that the way we describe dreams is a social construct.

[Charlie (Colorado)]

As another data point, when Martin Luther King said "I had a dream", he was talking about black and white...

Oh my.

[Ignatz]

--Do Androids Dream Of Electric Sheep?--

I bet lonely Waziristan androids do.

[Danube of Thought]

Last night I dreamed I was playing QB for the Ravens against the Steelers in overtime. The Steelers' uniforms were in vivid color, as were the gaily-clad fans in the stands.

I report, you decide.

[Threadkiller]

You sure you weren't eating a York Peppermint Patty?

[matt]

I dreamt once that I was playing golf with Dwight Eisenhower and there were colorized and B&W segments.

I believe it symbolizes my desire to turn back the clock 50 years on the economic mess. I played par too! That's why they're called dreams.

Would a remake with elephants be called Babarella, CH?

[Sara (Pal2Pal)]

I never remember dreaming, although I have on rare occasion awakened to some kind of intense feeling the dream left me with, fear, joy, whatever, but I never remember the actual dream.

[jimmyk]

So what did people dream in before movies or television of any sort? Maybe they dreamed in cave drawings or text.

[Thomas Collins]

My dreams, all in black and white, are typically about endless falling, suddenly remembering I have an exam or work deadline the next day and having done no preparation, being about to be shot or captured by someone, or some other unpleasant event. I always solve the problem by waking up and going to the other disasters, emergencies and kerfuffles awaiting me in my waking state (those are in color).

[MayBee]

Ha, jimmyk! I wonder if people in the 20's dreamed in herky-jerky movements?

[MayBee]

I dream in color and sometimes the oddest people are involved. I also sleepwalk on occasion. I remember some of my dreams from when I was 2 years old.

When my son was about 4, he had a dream that he was flying low over the ocean and the dolphins were jumping up to meet him. I have always been jealous of that dream.

[JackisBack!]

My Mother always said that dreams are unfinished business. If that is true than I must want to emulate Jackson Pollack.

[Captain Hate]

Would a remake with elephants be called Babarella, CH?

I'm trying to think of a snappy comeback to that but am drawing a blank, matt. It would sure be a different movie though; although I imagine that Vadim has some outtakes that keep Hanoi Jane worried will ever see the light of day. They'd certainly be more interesting from an (ahem) aesthetic point of view than the topless pictures of Stanley Ann ::vomit::

[Melinda Romanoff]

"Operation: Dumbo" has already been made, I'm afraid.

[matt]

so this is now the Siegmund Freud thread...cool....

that would mean that people back in the 1800's would dream in either formal posed photos or large paintings.

In medieval times they would dream in tapestries.

What the author fails to recognize is that almost no one asked anyone about the color of their dreams prior to the 20th century.

I would make the case that much religious art, especially that portraying the visions of saints etc reflects the dreams of either the subject or depictor.

In addition, the visions of seers and dream interpretations by medicine men/witch doctors were probably in technicolor, especially considering some of the things they took to give them those visions.

[cathyf]

The dreams that really piss me off are what I call the "rage dreams" where I wake up with heart pounding, screaming some silent string of obscenities. Usually what I can remember of the dream is totally incoherent -- I have no idea what I was mad about. But I do figure that all of the real stress hormones shorten my life every time it happens!

[Threadkiller]

CathyF, is bunkerbuster in your dream?

[Agent J. (formally known as "J"..]

My dreams are of two different variety's. The first is when ever my sleep is disturbed by planes, (think B-2 from Whiteman AFB) I become an Air Traffic Controller from the 60's, the old fashion way..no RADAR..and the other, I do not have often I could/can fly and escape captivity. Those are enjoyable..they were caused by my own personal deficit spending program or lack thereof. All dreams in my case are black & white.

[jimmyk]

My dreams, all in black and white, are typically about endless falling, suddenly remembering I have an exam or work deadline the next day and having done no preparation

Does anyone not get those? I thought it was almost universal.

For as far back as I can remember I've had a recurring dream that I could "fly"--sort of an extended long jump that I could keep going for 50 or 100 yards by pumping my arms. Kind of cool, actually.

[jimmyk]

Oops, by "those" I meant the deadline/no preparation anxiety dreams, not the "endless falling."

[Tom Maguire]

I think you're being told that the way we describe dreams is a social construct.

Good point.

[Tom Maguire]

So what did people dream in before movies or television of any sort?

Great question, and for an answer an eager researcher could turn to literature. Dreams are certainly mentioned (Hamlet, "to sleep, perchance to dream..."), so the trick would be to find descriptions of them.

Once Google has digitized the world, this will be easy. But I have the complete works of Mark Twain on my Nook...

[Threadkiller]

Anyone still have the American Dream?

[Stephanie]

It self deported to Mexico.

[Janet]

Nobody knows if these kids dreamed in color or B & W, but they were always serious in their dreams...no funny business going on.

[Captain Hate]

TK has been killing it all day

[Threadkiller]

In all seriousness CH, if an Android has a wet dream, does HAZMAT clean the sheets?

[Stephanie]

Would androids use a vibrator or have a built in vibrator? Would that be considered masturbation or adultery?

[Captain Hate]

TK, I think they send it to the Superfund people.

[Frau Staub]

I bet the Roomba takes care of it, TK.

[Frau Staubsauger]

My dreams are mixed color and b/w depending on how much time and effort my mind wants to put into the dream.

[Frau Staubsauger]

From TM's NYT article:
"The philosopher Eric Schwitzgebel, in “Perplexities of Consciousness,” contends that our minds, rather than being open-access, are largely hidden territory. Despite what we believe about our powers of introspection, the reality is that we know awfully little about what our conscious experience amounts to."

I've always lamented that my mind has a mind of its own.

[OldTimer]

Gabrielle Giffords just voted in person-in the House! Amazing.. She looks very good considering her ordeal.

[MayBee]

I'm happy for Giffords, but I remember all too well the Democrats wheeling Robert Byrd in to cast his "historic" healthcare vote.

It's been done.

[OldTimer]

Her appearance brought tears to my eyes, but hoping the Dem's are not just using her, as they've done with other health and age-debilitated members. It certainly is a valid concern.

[PD]

TK, I think they send it to the Superfund people.

More likely those guys at the SEC.

[Barry Dauphin]

I think I am being told that dreams are a social construct.

I think you're being told that the way we describe dreams is a social construct.

Why don't we just agree that Joe Biden is a social construct, whatever color he dreams in.

[JM Hanes]

TM:

"As another data point, when Martin Luther King said "I had a dream", he was talking about black and white..."

Wait, I thought there was no way to know whether or not he actually knew what he thought he was thinking about when he thought he was remembering his dreams -- especially when he was saying I have a dream at the time, which in this context would suggest some possible confusion between sleeping and waking, no?.

[JM Hanes]

peter:

"I don't foresee this as being one of the more popular threads"

You're kidding! Almost everyone is fascinated by their own dreams. There's almost nothing people love to talk about more, or like to listen to less.

[Captain Hate]

Almost everyone is fascinated by their own dreams. There's almost nothing people love to talk about more, or like to listen to less.

Oh dear God, when Mrs H *has* to tell me about her dreams it takes me very far from my happy place. I, on the other hand, have no desire to talk about mine.

[Ignatz]

--There's almost nothing people love to talk about more, or like to listen to less.--

As one who almost never remembers his dreams, I've never quite understood why the first part of that sentence so utterly overwhelms the second.
You'd think simple common courtesy would prevail when the poor trapped victim starts looking at his watch and squirming in his chair, but noooooooooooo, there's invariably another ten minutes of torture remaining.

[PD]

You'd think simple common courtesy would prevail when the poor trapped victim starts looking at his watch and squirming in his chair, but noooooooooooo, there's invariably another ten minutes of torture remaining.

Instead of looking at the watch, try: "That's fascinating. Now I have some slides of my last vacation I'd like to show you. It'll be quick, I promise; there can't be more than a few hundred."

[peter]

You're kidding! Almost everyone is fascinated by their own dreams. There's almost nothing people love to talk about more, or like to listen to less.

I was loud wrong, and you called me on this JMH. Thougth it was going to turn into an exercise thread. I personally find other people's recounting of their dreams to be boring. But I don't like science fiction either. I have enough wonder and awe concerning the real world. Besides, are persons describing their dreams after they wake up really sure that they accurately remember the dreams?

[Captain Hate]

O/T According to the comments at Weasel Zippers, Tweety is really going off the rails tonight.

[Ignatz]

Who's tweety, CH?

[Captain Hate]

Chris Matthews

“The Republican leadership going along with the tea party is able to hostage take, they're able to use the hostage of the government crashing, the economy crashing. We elected President Obama, the American people and we’re stuck with Bush’s economic policies because they keep hostage-taking to keep Bush in power.”

[narciso]

matthews, although I don't recall why Capt, dubbed him that way.

[Chubby]

hmmm, never occurred to me before, but I wonder if there was any subliminal intent in the title of Obama's memoir --"Dreams" to allude to MLK's "Dream".

I've not read his book and don't know if MLK is mentioned in it.

[Captain Hate]

I think he looks like the cartoon canary.

And is a bird brain.

[Janet]

I have enough wonder and awe concerning the real world.

from True Grit -
Col. Stonehill: I do not entertain hypotheticals. The world itself is vexing enough.

[Ignatz]

--We elected President Obama, the American people and we’re stuck with Bush’s economic policies because they keep hostage-taking to keep Bush in power.”--

They're amazing. They take hostages even before they're in office like when Barry and the Dems extended the Bush tax cuts.

He does look like Tweety now that you mention it, Cap'n.

[Captain Hate]

Yeah but the trail of broken capillaries is getting too much for even the pancake makeup to keep up with.

He also tried to tie the Tea Party to Gabby Giffords tonight; there was a link at AoS for that but it takes you to some garbage site that takes forever to load.

[maryrose]

Matthews has really marginalized himself. My theory for all his rants is he sees what is happening to Obama as the same thing that happened to his boss Jimmy Carter and he knows deep down that Obama with this economy is going to have trouble getting re-elected. It's deja vu all over again for him -hence the off the hook raving maniac behavior.

[Dave (in MA)]

I'm guessing Crissy got that "hostage" crap from some talking points that Robert Reich wrote currently making the rounds in the moonbatosphere, and also appearing on the facebook walls of normal people.

[Janet]

Watching the NBC/MSNBC meltdown makes it hard to stomach the fact that in the "he said/he said" Libby trial, Tim Russert's testimony was believed. What a nest of vipers over there.

[jimmyk]

Watching the NBC/MSNBC meltdown

And that's over a bill that cuts 0.6% of government spending in the 2012 budget (relative to some baseline increase). I think they fear the end is finally coming for their dreams of a Euro-style welfare state, and they're just sticking their fingers in the dikes.

[Ignatz]

--I think they fear the end is finally coming for their dreams of a Euro-style welfare state, and they're just sticking their fingers in the dikes.--

Presumably Maddow goes without saying, correct?

[narciso]

Isn't it quite clear, they don't have the slightest shred of a clue, how the world works

[Rick Ballard]

The pivot and stumble towards the center should give the President a bit of a bounce in approval ratings. The Muddle will reward him for 'playing nice' and accepting a compromise. It will be nothing like the Kill Binny bounce but it will be noticeable. I'd say we'll see the full effect by Friday - and then the July jobs report will hit.

[Sara (Pal2Pal)]

I said upthread I never remember dreams, but that isn't completely true. I used to have a recurring dream (which may be why I do remember it). It started not long after my father died. I am always on a tour of some English castle where the walls are lined with life-size portraits of ancestors. During the tour I drop back and suddenly a man in one of the paintings steps out and starts walking alongside me. I realize it is my Dad. We talk about my life and decisions I need to make and then he steps back in the picture with a warning to not tell anyone or they'll think I'm crazy.

And another recurring dream that started after the home invasion attack. In that dream, all I see are these crazy insane looking eyes coming toward me. It must be in color because I know the face is a black man with scary brown eyes, just like the cop who threw me down and stomped on my back. I'm terrified and I wake up shaking and sometimes even crying. It takes me hours to calm myself down. Surprisingly, the last time I had that dream was the night before the last court appearance where I won the case and got a decent settlement for my injuries. But, that case dragged on for over six years and I had the dream frequently during that time.

My Mother used to have those dreams about projects unprepared for and also the falling or flying dreams. I don't think I've ever had either of those.

My dreams, such as they are or are remembered, all center around fear and my subconscious need to be protected from the tigers under the bed.

[PD]

and then the July jobs report will hit

Any predictions for the "unexpected" results?

[Rick Ballard]

PD,

Flat to slightly negative. My bet is that June will be revised to show actual losses. That ISM report plus state and local budget problems indicate quite heavy negatives and I don't see any offsetting positives.

[Melinda Romanoff]

PD-

Predictions? Not falling for that standard economic trap. I will go as far to say that the data will be unexpected, someplace.

[Rick Ballard]

C'mon, Mel. At least make a guess at the sector showing the highest gain (or lowest loss). I'll take travel/leisure.

[Melinda Romanoff]

I'll take medical services for the gain.

[PD]

I do remember dreams, but I can tell from the comments upthread that no one except Ignatz wants to hear about them.

[PD]

I will go as far to say that the data will be unexpected, someplace.

So they won't be, unexpectedly, expected?

[Melinda Romanoff]

Just by me, they won't.

Oh, and temp services will be up as well.

[PD]

Did anyone ever explain "Gig 'em!" ?

[PD]

(that was an oblique way of saying I'm still trying to work my way through tabs from a month back)

[JM Hanes]

Check out frog gigging, PD.

[PD]

So what do you do with a fan of the opposing team after you have gigged one?

Sautee? Deep fry?

[Melinda Romanoff]

JMH-

It's the boat that's the gig.

[daddy]

Can't access TM's NYTimes story, but concerning color and the mind:

In Neurologist OLiver Sach's best book on neurological abnormalities, An Anthropologist on Mars, one of the short case studies is called "The Case of The ColorBlind Painter.

A mid 40's professional artist gets a slight concussion in a car wreck and shortly after realizes he has lost the ability to see anything in color. It's all shades of black and white. I can't recall now if Sacks pinpoints the precise area in the brain where this guy had his micro-trauma, but Sacks makes a good case that the ability to see color resides somewhere in the brain that the Evolutionary folks believe evolves well after the sections that allow black-white vision.

Sacks deals well with the guys frustration. I remember that the guy said that now having only black-white vision, he realized that he could see things at very far distances, much better and clearer than he could previously, such as being able to read license plates at great distances whereas he never could previously done such a thing. He believed removing the color sensing ability gave a great sharpness to his vision.

Interesting thing to me was that by Sacks followups with the patient a few years later Sacks says that the artist (who continues as an artist simply in black-white) now says that he can't even remember what colors look like. He can't for instance call up in his imagination what a red would look like. That sense has been completely lost to him. After the initial accident he knew what was lacking in his vision but now he can't even imagine it. Perhaps the dreaming part of our brains cycles through the older black-white sections of the noggin' rather than the color section.

Anyhow, a fascinating read, and interesting food for thought from an evolutionary perspective as to how and why some animals develop different color perceptions.

And as for a nutty dream sequence...the other day, thick into the Neptune's Inferno book featuring Dot's dad prominently, I had a dream where I was a kid on a skateboard whipping around a parking lot at great speed, and somehow DoT was there and I was asking him questions about Guadacanal. He was indistinct, but somehow I knew it was Dot. Wierd, but it makes sense.

Am I the only JOMer to have had a dream that included another JOMer? Not that there's anything wrong with that...:)

[Melinda Romanoff]

Rick-

Here's something I'm looking at, as a field.

[Sara (Pal2Pal)]

After my Mother's first stroke, she could not recognize color. Little by little it came back. First bright red, then pinks and oranges as variants of red. After a couple of months she saw a yellow daffodil and knew it was yellow. It was many months before she reported being able to see the blues and purples. I don't remember the green shades.

[Ignatz]

--It's the boat that's the gig.--

You'll have to explain that one to me, Mel.

[daddy]

Interesting Sara.

I do not know but I wonder if the rods and cones we use for night vision are in any way wired more towards systems of the brain that are black-white oriented than the color processing areas. Thought it also interesting that in the Neptune's Inferno book, that after the horrible conflict that sunk the Atlanta, that the high Navy brass demanded some recommendations from the folks that went thru the battle. One prominent recommendation was something like "make sure your rescue teams that are standing by are away from bright lights and have acclimated their eyes to night vision, so that they're not initially functionally blind when they're running around the darkened deck after impact trying to see what's what in the darkness."

I forget which ship that recommendation came from, but you smack your head in hindsight and say "But of course. Why didn't we think of that beforehand?" Very understandable, but a tough way to learn a lesson.

[jimmyk]

Presumably Maddow goes without saying, correct?

Yecch! I had a feeling I was going to be in trouble with that metaphor.

[PaulV]

When I dream I dream in motions and sensations, not picture. Once in my dream I realize how I was hurting my hip from doing an excerise wrong. My eyes are closed and there is nothing to see.

[Threadkiller]

Daddy, I hope this link works:

http://www.yourdiscovery.com/video/mythbusters-top-10-eyepatch-master/

[boris]

As a kid long ago I remember night time in a flat bottom boat with a flashlight spearing bullfrogs. As I recall frog legs are tasty. According to the internet certain kinds of spears are called gigs.

[matt]

There is a type of boat called a Captain's gig. It is whatever boat that is designated for exclusive use of the Captain of a ship. I think this is Mel's thinking.

Daddy, reading that book will produce nightmares, so I'm not surprised. Guadalcanal will probably live in the memories of those who empathized with the survivors for generations.

I have a special connection with some of the Marines and sailors who were there. We can talk off-line sometime. The Vietnam vets were happy they survived. They used to say life's a skate after that.

The veterans of Guadalcanal just had that long stare. 20+ American ships sunk, a few with almost all hands. The Marines were abandoned after the landings and were living off of Japanese rations.One of the great messes, but one of the great triumphs of the war.

Contrast it with that washed up KGB f*ck Putin. Once again, they don't know nor respect the American character. That works for us if we're smart.The ROW forgets that Americans have been dying for 100 years on behalf of the checks other people wrote.

Pukin is sitting on top of the world's greatest crookocracy. The only real industry they have is natural resources. The next step, if we were smart and the Krauts weren't so dependent upon Russian gas, would be to starve their asses. That was the way the game used to be played.

I don't know if we have the smarts at this point.

[Ignatz]

--There is a type of boat called a Captain's gig. It is whatever boat that is designated for exclusive use of the Captain of a ship. I think this is Mel's thinking.--

Ah-so. We non nautical types refer to Poseiden's mighty trident on the end of a broom handle stickin in the back of a frog as a gig.

[daddy]

Thanks for that link TK. Fits with my experience.

Once in Hawaii at the big island, took the family on a long trek near Kilauea to watch the Lava flowing down the hillside and into the ocean.

Found a good viewing perch, and then waited for darkness to get a great view of the fire. The mile long walk back over the broken but cooled lava fields concerned me. We each had a flashlight, but I decided lets not use the lights and just use our night vision, and it worked out beautiful. My little girls loved the nighttime adventure, plus learned the benefit of eyeballs adapted to night vision. A great family memory.

Matt,

That book struck me like few others have in recent times. Having the luxury of being able to read it rapidly, in just a few days, for very long stretches of time, it really had an impact. My dreaming about it makes sense to me.

[Sara (Pal2Pal)]

I can't believe you guys don't know what a frog gig. I made my first one out of bike spokes and a rake handle.

[glasater]

If this video doesn't give JMH nightmares--I don't know what will:-)

[sbw]

I thought a gig was what you got at West Point when you did something wrong... and you had to march them off.

[peter]

Good morning, everyone. Do you want to hear about what I dreamt last night?

No? I didn't think so.

By the way, the funniest remark I ever read about Oliver Sacks was "the neurologist who mistook his patient list for a writing career." LUN