Pre-Debate Warm-Up

As we brace for the Republican debate (featuring the national debut of Gary Johnson), let's pick up on some LOL action from the left.

Steve Benen of Political Animal notes a NY Times pic of the Tampa debate in which Gov. Rick Perrydoes not have his hand over his hert during the pledge, although the other visible candidates do (Ron Paul, cropped nearly to oblivion, has his right hand at his side.)

This prompts Mr. Benen to jog down memory lane.  Back in 2008 Obama slouched through the national anthem holding his crotch like a rapper, and (believe it or not!) some people questioned his patriotism.  So why the double standard, wonders Mr. Benen?

Please.  We will come to the long answer in a minute.  The short answer is that this is a bit of a "gotcha" photo.  At the Daily Beast, we see all eight candidates with a hand over a heart; the Denver Post settled for five (including Mr. Paul).  For reasons that I imagine are mysterious to Mr. Benen, the Times picked the photo that showed Mr. Perry as out of the mainstream.  (The Getty Image library is here; a search for "Republican debate Tampa" on September 12 indicates the range of choices.)  Someone with a TiVo and too much free time could review the tape to see whether the Governor was slow on the uptake when the national anthem aired.

As to the long answer to why people were questioning Obama's patriotism, let cut to Obama's speech from the campaign where he tackled that very question:

Still, what is striking about today's patriotism debate is the degree to which it remains rooted in the culture wars of the 1960s - in arguments that go back forty years or more. In the early years of the civil rights movement and opposition to the Vietnam War, defenders of the status quo often accused anybody who questioned the wisdom of government policies of being unpatriotic. Meanwhile, some of those in the so-called counter-culture of the Sixties reacted not merely by criticizing particular government policies, but by attacking the symbols, and in extreme cases, the very idea, of America itself - by burning flags; by blaming America for all that was wrong with the world; and perhaps most tragically, by failing to honor those veterans coming home from Vietnam, something that remains a national shame to this day.

Well, yes.  And today, earnest libs walk around explaining that America was stolen from the Native Americans, built on the back of slaves, and fought multiple colonial wars in the 20th and 21st centuries.  We don't lead on greenhouse gases, we do lead in consumption of resources, and we are on a path towards planetary destruction.  But they love America!  They love it for what it might be one day, not for what it is right now (sort of like their love for Uncle Bob in rehab...).

Incredibly, not everyone is sufficiently nuanced to pick up on that as a patriotic vibe.

Comments

[hit and run]

I bet it's a Texas secession thing!!!

[Jack is Back!]

Actually, if he wants, Perry, as a veteran, can wear a hat during the playing of the national anthem and salute the flag in civvies. [W era EO, one all Vets applaud]. None of the other guys unless they are Vets can do that. I do not for one believe that Rick Perry, a Vet and Governor, would avoid for spite or anger (like our current POTUS) protocol in regard to the Pledge. In fact, they should make them all say the Pledge prior to the start of the debate.

Thinking about it, we play the Anthem with really bad celebrity singers for the start of every kind of ball game but for something really important to the future direction of the country we ask for opening statements like its a Perry Mason repeat.

[Gmax]

Seriously why would the NYT and Benen care? I mean about such a sappy and anachronistic ritual I mean? Cuz they have no intention of voting for the most patriotic of all them, and one might get the impression that they only bring it up when they think it might harm a Republican ( especially one who dares run against the man who made the oceans stop rising!).

[Benjamin Franklin]

"And today, earnest libs walk around explaining that America was stolen from the Native Americans, built on the back of slaves,"

from which you exclude the ancestors who stole land from the Native Americans, before we stole it from both? This must be what's left of the the former democrat;

http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/278074/perry-s-ambiguous-employment-record-steven-camarota

We found that of jobs created in Texas since 2007, 81 percent (225,000) were taken by newly arrived foreign workers (legal and illegal). The Census Bureau asks immigrants to say when they came to the United States, so it is easy to look at new arrivals who took jobs. Of newly arrived immigrants who took a job in Texas, the data show that 93 percent were not U.S. citizens. We estimate that about half of newly arrived immigrants who took jobs in Texas since 2007 were illegal immigrants. This means that about 40 percent of all the job growth in Texas between 2007 and 2011 went to newly arrived illegal immigrants and 40 percent went to newly arrived legal immigrants.

[`yeah it's me]

I watched a little of Chris Matthews tonite, I'm actually starting to feel sorry for the Bens of this world. It is not possible to be more delusional.

Is someone following the FOX debate site. It sounds like it is going to be very interesting.

[Colt 45]

Most likely Pakistan and Mexican poly sci professors specializing in anarchy studies.

[Janet]

Seems like there is a big Romney push going on. My little local paper even had this article - Moran: Romney Would Be The Most Difficult To Beat...

"An August National Journal “political insiders’ poll” found that 48 percent of those surveyed thought Romney would be the strongest Republican presidential nominee,..."

and

"“He’s got economic credibility, he seems smart, he has a bit of polish, and he doesn’t seem like a complete loon,” one of the poll respondents said of Romney. “None of the others have that whole package.”"

I wonder who that anonymous "poll respondent" was? David Brooks, Frum,...?
Nice to see Moran had time to give his opinion...not out beating a kid, getting drunk, or bashing Israel.

[Colt 45]

Janet,

Mitt has money to burn, his and the donors. That buys all kinds of PR and Oped's and rumor mongering, whispers and damnations. This is going to be the rule rather then the exception until someone concedes. Mitt's team are old hands at these perfectly legal polysci psych ops.

[narciso]

Last time, he was able to swing the Iowa straw poll, now he can't even do that

[Danube of Thought]

"from which you exclude the ancestors who stole land from the Native Americans,... "

Everyone take a guess as to the antecedent of "which."

[Danube of Thought]

While you're at it, guess who "we" are. You and Dana? Dana and his former faculty mates? Dana and his children?

[Colt 45]

DoT,

The Chinese, right?

[Benjamin Franklin]

""As a governor who's made a great deal of decisions with consequences over the years, I couldn't have done so without being driven to my knees on many occasions."

I pray he was praying.........

[centralcal]

So glad the debate starts at 6 pm (PDT), means I can fix a cocktail and dinner and not have to play catch-up.

My computer/office is away from the TV, Jane, so I will be following your snark on the iPad and if I feel the urge to comment will run back into the office to do it (since I am all thumbs at typing on the iPad - unlike here where I am usually only one thumb. lol)

I sure will be glad when we start to winnow the field. When and how will that occur? Anybody know? Do they actually have to drop out or can they be given the hook?

[Jack is Back!]

Back to the mattresses people. Whatever massage therapy Hit worked on this piece of special turd did not even get close to covering the stink. Why the hell do we have to tolerate his carp? If cutting and pasting every damn left wing MFM site adds more to our commentary and discussion then I am the one lost.

[Ignatz]

Another bad day for Barry.
Ben must be poppin' bennies to keep up this pace of inane comments.

[Benjamin Franklin]

GAWD! Now we have to listen to insipid drawlings of his brilliance for the duration.......

"Doubts about Perry’s intellect have hounded him since he was first elected as a state legislator nearly three decades ago. In Austin, he’s been derided as a right-place, right-time pol who looks the part but isn’t so deep — “Gov. Goodhair.” Now, with the chatter picking back up among his enemies and taking flight in elite Republican circles, the rap threatens to follow him to the national stage.

“He’s like Bush only without the brains,” cracked one former Republican governor who knows Perry, repeating a joke that has made the rounds."

Read more: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0811/62214.html#ixzz1YjQoqz2h

[narciso]

Well Megyn will bring some sharper questioning than usual. Yes Ben/Dana is just a variant of the Griffin/McGuinness phenomenon
seen on the other thread

[hit and run]

"“He’s got economic credibility, he seems smart, he has a bit of polish, and he doesn’t seem like a complete loon,”

Mitt Romney walks into a bar. The bartender asks him, "Hey, have you heard the latest Pollack joke?" Mitt Romney replied, coldly, "No. And I'll have you know Jim Moran said that I have a bit of polish." That's O.K.," said the bartender, "I'll talk slow."

[Clarice]

Dudge says the WH is fighting on Slyandra and gave the NYT tons of stuff for an article tomorrow..Stenography..?

[Comanche Voter]

Nuance is for the nancy boys and other metrosexuals at the New York Times. I like my sex straight and my words plain.

[Jim Rhoads a/k/a vnjagvet]

Vodka, tonic, lots of lime, Thursday night college football and Jane's play by play. What's not to like?

[Jack is Back!]

Cincy v. NC State is a good game if you are an ex-Bearcat like me. Collaras is a handful but that NC State defense is a tough one. This may not be what it seems like right now.

Jane, are going to blog the debate? If so, I can continue to watch the game and just follow you on the JOM thread.

[Jack is Back!]

Sorry, but it is Collaros. And he is one tough QB.

[hit and run]

Back to the mattresses people. Whatever massage therapy Hit worked on this piece of special turd did not even get close to covering the stink.

Oh,ok.

[Charlie (Colorado)]

Everyone take a guess as to the antecedent of "which."

Grandwitch?

[Danube of Thought]

Let's see if he works up the courage to tell us the antecedent of "which" or the meaning of " we."

(This guy actually taught at a college.)

[Charlie (Colorado)]

“He’s like Bush only without the brains,” cracked one former Republican governor who knows Perry, repeating a joke that has made the rounds."

Ben, at this point we've, first, heard the "dumb Republican" bit so many times that the edge is getting a bit dull; and second, we've had the recent essay about Bush by a liberal academic who didn't vote for him, but who made it clear (albeit a little late) that Bush was both very smart, and a good and moral man.

In contrast, we've got Ears, who is supposed to be the smartest guy in the room but who doesn't appear to be competent to organize a Las Vegas drive through wedding.

I don't think the "let's call Perry dumb" trope has a lot of milage left on in.

[Benjamin Franklin]

"(This guy actually taught at a college.)"

http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/dward/

mmmmppppffff ! Bwahhahhhhhh !

[Jim Rhoads a/k/a vnjagvet]

Intrigued by Clarice's Drudge reference:

BLINDED: NYT SETS 'WHITE HOUSE PUSH-BACK' ON SOLYNDRA FOR LEAD FRIDAY EDITIONS, SOURCES TELL DRUDGE...
Review of hundreds of documents, interviews with Obama officials... MORE...Didn't know 'true financial condition and risks of the investment'... Developing Late...

Sounds Nixonesque to me. And a very risky gambit.

[Benjamin Franklin]

"I don't think the "let's call Perry dumb" trope has a lot of milage left on in"

That's my point, Chaco....it's counter-productive....e.g. "Obama's
Dumb", but that doesn't ratchet down the rhetoric.

[narciso]

Aggresive ignorance, is their fall back strategy.

[`yeah it's me]

It's on!!

9 candidates. Fox and google.

Perry looks pumped, Romney looks sad, Paul looks idiotic, Michelle looks smiley, Newt looks like Newt, Rick looks like he's mad there is not enough time for him, Herman looks excited and Gary looks new.

There will be no dog bell.

I love Brett Baer. DOn't tell anyone.

Dave wants to know how he gets confidence as a small bus owner to hire new employees.

Rick - lower taxes, predictable regulatory climate and tort reform.

Details please? Where is your jobs plan.

Look at Texas and see what we have done there, if you want to know the plan,, but okay I'll write one.

Mitt: WSj says your plan is timid and tactical, particularly the 200k threshhold for something.

I have a job and I can make America the most attractive place to do business. Trade, energy and 59 things in total. I'd cut taxes for the middle class.

what is rich?

I want everyone in America to be rich.

He's bashing Obama not Perry.

[Clarice]

Very, for both the WH and the NYT, Jim.

[Barbara]

...at this point we've, first, heard the "dumb Republican" bit so many times that the edge is getting a bit dull; and second, we've had the recent essay about Bush by a liberal academic who didn't vote for him, but who made it clear (albeit a little late) that Bush was both very smart, and a good and moral man.

Thank you, Charlie, for stating this so well. That same old meme of "dumb Republican" is so over done and insulting that it has lost it's intended sting.

OT - A belated wish for a very Happy Birthday to Centralcal! You lift my spirits every time I read your comments. Here's to a great year!

[Clarice]

I mean, what's the plus for the WH?
We were too dumb to figure out the scam?
It was only half a billion?
No one here even ran a lemonade stand so how were we to know what to look for?
I hired stupid people?

[Danube of Thought]

"Didn't know 'true financial condition and risks of the investment..."

So there was no reason not to guarantee a half-billion dollar loan. Great.

[Threadkiller]

Bachmann has no answer

[matt]

How the hell is Obumble going to argue against Solyndra's own auditors? What a tool.

Even before the money was transferred back in, I believe '09, Price Waterhouse stated unequivocally that they did not believe the firm would survive despite the massive cash injection.

We did business with them and knew long ago they were a waste of time. It was a lousy design. They were lousy engineers. They put their plant on high priced real estate right on the 880. It was economic autoeroticism from the outset.

[`yeah it's me]

Go to fox news and vote on what is rich.

Michelle, out of every dollar I earn how much should I keep? Michelle says "all of it" - wow so no taxes under Bachmann, oops she says there will be taxes but under another mindset. She attacks Obama, talks about free enterprise.

Rick: right to work states v union -Union battles are incredibly relevant. WOuld you support a federal right to work law allowing employees to choose.

Rick picks out public employee unions and bashes them, rightly so. He would support a bill saying no public employee unions.

Newt: Would you justify extending unemployment benefits furhter?

You have to tie it to a training program. It's wrong to give people money for doing nothing. have the states do it.

[Clarice]

I know..how's this for a defense--Due diligence is so hard?

[PD]

"Didn't know 'true financial condition and risks of the investment..."

Weren't they sitting in on the company meetings?

Perhaps they were paying attention as much as Obama (says he) paid attention to Rev. Wright.

[Jack is Back!]

DoT,

Is your skin scrawling yet? Mine is.

[PD]

Due diligence is so hard?

Right. "Because if it was easy, it would have been done already."

[Threadkiller]

My wife is right. Huntsman is "Ellis" from Die Hard.

Hans! Boobie!

[Clarice]

Perhaps the staff work was as good re Solyandra as it was when they sent him to a bridge that doesn't qualify for the program he was pimping there.

[bgates]

what's the plus for the WH?
We were too dumb to figure out the scam?

Wavering Obama voters could find something very sympathetic in the idea of being too dumb to figure out a scam, Clarice.

[`yeah it's me]

HUntsman,

You will subsidize natural gas inddustires and how is that different from Solyndra.

He talks about his wife and skews to the economy and still makes my skin crawl Now he says subsidies don't work and green doesn't work this week which is different from last week.

you didn't answer the question.

Ok I would do it if I could get out fast.

Cain - 999 program - shouldn't you repeal the income tax before you put new taxes? Are we at risk for a new president adding old taxes.

No. (okay) New tax code is where it is at. Audience agrees, Romney sucks

Romney: I'll help people most hurt by Obama.

Paul: How will you restore the 10th Amendment? (they must be tea partiers)

Paul would veto every bill that violates the 10th amendment

gary will balance the budget in the first year - sorry my computer crashed.

[Danube of Thought]

Not watching, JiB. I'm relying on all of you.

I'm pretty sure the Bush EO authorized saluting even without a hat on, theretofore anathema in thr Navy and the Marine Corps.

[PD]

Be nice if they could figure out that Obama himself is the scam.

[centralcal]

Okay, I gave up on the iPad - no filtering (eyeroll).

FIX YOUR COMPUTER JANE - NO CRASHES ALLOWED.

[Benjamin Franklin]

"Not watching, JiB. I'm relying on all of you."

'Blind' drunk.

[centralcal]

So far, the debate seems to be moving along - I think Google (bah humbug, I use Bing) - actually is adding a little something to the format. (Can't believe I said that!)

[Melinda Romanoff]

Romney's stumbling.

Perry got some schooling.

[pagar]

"No one here even ran a lemonade stand so how were we to know what to look for?"

I'm not sure there is anyone in the Administration that has ever even bought anything from a child ran lemonade stand.

With all the stories about children needing licenses to sell Girl Scout cookies etc, wouldn't they have to denounce themselves and go to rehab if they had.

Not to mention the possibility that someone has failed to buy a license for their rabbit and thousands of new Dept of Ag employees will be needed to check all rabbits to find out if they have a current license.

[PD]

"I actually wrote my book." -- Mitt

Yeah!

[Sara (Pal2Pal)]

Last time, he was able to swing the Iowa straw poll, now he can't even do that

The fact that he didn't participate might have had something to do with it. Just sayin'

[Danube of Thought]

Tell us the antecedent of "which," Dana. Lost your trademark courage?

[Jack is Back!]

Bachman is an idiot.

[Dave (in MA)]

FIX YOUR COMPUTER JANE - NO CRASHES ALLOWED.

Oh, I thought she was quoting Gary Johnson.

[PD]

Good question about eliminating Fed. departments.

[PD]

How about getting rid of the EPA, and letting it STAY gotten rid of?

[Dave (in MA)]

The little time's up noise on the debate sounds exactly like the Facebook new message beep.

[`yeah it's me]

Govt spending and debt:

Perry - how will 50 separate ss systems work?

First of all notning will change for the people on it or near.

We never said we would move it to the states what we said is the state employees could have a state program which is how it is in MA (edit:and it is bad I might add)

Mitt: That's not what you said in your book so find that Rick perry and get him to stop saying that. SS is the job if the feds.

Rick: Romenycare is a bust and you said it was great in your book, then you took that line out in your paperback, so neaner neaner.

Mitt: we were talking about social security, but I'll change. I said no such thing. I told the Washington Post it was not national.

Bachmann and Rick and Newt all say Obama is a socialist. What do you say Mitt?

He wants him to be former president Obama, he wants us to be like Europe and social democrats in europe. I believe in capitalism. I only spent 4 years as governor, I didn't inhale.

Huntsman: Tax hike on millionaires 66% agree, do you side with those people? this is the worst time to raise taxes. Now I will quote ronald reagan. Get rid of loopholes, 3 rates.

Cain: What dept would you eliminate from the Federal goverment and why? I would start with the EPA (edit - i'd eliminate all of them)

they have a 2012 regulation against dust. I would them make a good EPA. And now let me talk about ChilAAA.

Newt: We take in 6b and spend 10b a day. how can you slash spending. If you assume Washington stays the same way we may as well by Greek bonds and go down together.

I'll create a new plan soon. Obama sucks.

[pagar]

"Romney: I'll help people most hurt by Obama."

Holy jalapenos! That'll be every American and all the rest of the world except the MB.

[narciso]

OT, Perfidious Albion, has gone totally insane:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/morgue-is-ready-for-the-living-dead-2359451.html

[snarky]

Is anyone reading this? Should I stop?

Education: I missed the question: gary will balance the budget and get rid of the fed dept of education. They give states 11 cents and have 16 cents attached so it is a net negative.

Rick: Schools are worse because it doesn't serve the parents. Government now says it is not your responsibility parents.

Newt: Pell grants for K-12.

Paul: get the feds out of education. Don't enforce no child left behind, it's not good. Give tax credits to people who opt out.

Rick, lots of good ideas here. I like school choice, vouchers, and charter system. Romeny is for race to the top and that is not conservative.

Mitt - "nice try". Need to get the feds out of education. Best thing for education is great teachers, pay them right, test them. Oh Gawd he is a liberal.

Did Perry lie?

I'm not sure what he said. i think Arne Duncan is good at evaluating teachers.

Michelle - we need local control\ This week k she has 5 kids - 3 last week. She would get rid of Feds.

Cain: Cut all the strings to the feds.

[Jim Rhoads a/k/a vnjagvet]

Romney: I'll help people most hurt by Obama.

What ever happened to those dreaded 9 words, "I'm from the government and I'm here to help"?

[PD]

What's a non-biological kid?

I assume she meant she's the biological mom of five kids, not the mom of five biological kids?

I'm glad I'm not up there trying to get words to emerge properly.

[Threadkiller]

Can't post a pic right now. Ron Paul is looking more like Walter the Puppet every day.

[PD]

Is anyone reading this? Should I stop?

Only if you don't care about your kneecaps.

[narciso]

facepalm with an octopus, Jane, maybe if he had talked with Michelle Rhee, he would have a clue,

[Threadkiller]

I am reading Jane. PD it has to do with natural born.

[Dave (in MA)]

Jane, I have you and Vodkapundit's drunk blogging in adjacent browser tabs.

[Clarice]

Keep on, Jane.

[Danube of Thought]

She must be alluding to her numerous foster chilfren.

[PD]

PD it has to do with natural born.

Oh no you don't.

[Jim Rhoads a/k/a vnjagvet]

Jane. Jane. Jane.

Better than live.

[Rick Ballard]

Jane,

Every word. The laugh from your neener neener startled my wife.

[PD]

Rick, and how did you explain being online with another woman?

[Threadkiller]

:-)

[Porchlight]

You're brilliant, Jane. I can't bear to turn it on so I'm just following you.

[Ann]

Jane, great job.

I think Perry and Romney look foolish. Sad

[Clarice]

Without Jane I don't know how I'd get thru the Obama administration.

[PD]

Santorum's apoplexy is unbecoming.

[snarky]

Huntsman: I did a voucher bill and early childhood development. localize, localize localize.

Bachmann: Illegal immigration: would you support each state enforcing immigration laws because the feds are not, and how do you square that with the constitution.

Obama sucks for suing AZ. I'd do what you are supposed to do. I'd build a fence on every inch of the southern border and enforce the laws and not allow taxpayer funded benefits for illegals and their children.

Newt: Are you for Everify? some tea partiers object. Do you?

We'd be better off outsouorcing it to american express because they can do it without fraud. and what do employers object to? English as official language, strong borders, and modernizing the legal visa system so they can come to Disney World.

Mitt: You vetoed legilsation to give instate tuition of illegals (Deval Patrick changed that) Perry lets them in.

I don't get it. it's a 100k discount to an illegal. It's a magnet. We ahve to do all sorts of things.

Perry: Everyone wants to ask you about immigration. you haven't tried to stop them, will you try? Last year 16k childrten of illegals took advantage of instate tuition.

I've worked on border security more than anyone. we spent 400 m. But I still think you have to educate children because they will drag on the economy (get rid of them) Cheers and boos

Santorum: Is perry soft on illegal immigration. We don't have to subsidize illegals - they can go, but why subsidize them and why give them preferential treatment. he's soft on illegal immigration. he wanted bi-national health insurance.

Perry: You can't build a fence for 1200 miles. You need boots on the grouond. as President we will stop.

Ron paul: re; the fences keeping us in. Do you know a lot of people who want to take their money and flee America.

Some.

[peter]

I sure don't like Perry's immigration and illegal alien positions.

[Threadkiller]

Perry is right on the fence. He will never be able to explain to the excessive amount of people who have never rode the border. A tough narrative has been built. Now the fence needs to be built.

[PD]

I think Paul made a good point when he said that the way to discourage illegal immigration is to attack their benefits: No in-state tuition, etc.

It may not be the only way, but there's merit in that idea.

[Jack is Back!]

Perry is losing the illegal immigration issue. big time.

He didn't even answer the issue of tuition. This is his achilles heel. We are not all Texas even though Texas does a lot of bad ass things, this is not one of them for the rest of America.

I still like him but Romney has an issue here and if he is smart he will push it hard.

[Threadkiller]

Never ridden?

[snarky]

My arm is killing me!

Now we have a bunch of charts. Find them on Fox news.

oh good a break!

Is Ann here? Your prize arrived! I can't wait to give it to those kids. And I love love love the card. I see you ANN! Thank you, thank you! And I agree about romney and perry.

And where the hell is Caro?

[Melinda Romanoff]

Jane-

Mitt is guessing about Arne. Trust me, and rse'll back me up on that.

Sharkskin-clad used car salesman.

[pagar]

Jane, Thanks for all you do. If it wasn't for you I would have no info on how Romney was going to help everyone who has been hurt by Obama.

Wait, I still don't know how he is going to do it.

Anyway keep up the good work!

[centralcal]

Jane - you go girl!

Ann: I agree with you. Romney and Perry seem to be cancelling each other out.

[Jack is Back!]

Please God, give Newt some sound bites that put teeth marks in Obama's ass! The game is making me nervous.

[narciso]

WE got our new superintendent, from Chicago,
enough said,

[Porchlight]

It's not just a discount (tuition to illegals). That illegal takes the place of a citizen at a publicly-funded Texas university. Those spots are increasingly harder to get. They should go to citizens first. DUH.

[peter]

link for jane, please

[Jack is Back!]

snarky Jane,

You are doing terrific. I love your shorthand. You could we be a contender.