Pulling The Band-Aid On The Health Care Mandate, Take Two

Mickey Kaus suggests that Team Obama might benefit from a quick Supreme Court decision overturning the health care mandate:

If the law is as unpopular as it seems to be, and if the individual mandate is “the most hated piece of the law,” then the Court, by removing the threat of the law, or at least the mandate, on constitutional grounds, would remove a big reason to oppose Obama, no? Health care “repealers” could reelect the President without fear that he’d require them to buy insurance–or, if the entire law collapses, without fear that the law would not be repealed over his veto.

Interesting.  I had mumbled something similar earlier this week before deciding against the idea:

Obamacare does not poll well and Republicans will be campaigning on its repeal whatever the Supremes decide.  And (just thinking out loud here) Obama might actually benefit from a Supreme Court ruling against Obamacare, since it would give him an excuse to give the people what they want.  Put another way, if the Supreme Court upholds Obamacare it will be obvious that the only way to end it is to end Obama's reign.

AllahPundit didn't buy that notion:

Interesting point, but having a conservative Court uphold the mandate would be a huge psychological boost for Obama and the left and might even help legitimize the program to independents who have been lukewarm about it until now. Don’t forget either that the White House is expecting Romney to be the GOP nominee. Even if grassroots conservatives feel energized by the Court decision, how jacked up can they be to replace Obama with … the architect of RomneyCare, who did more than anyone else until The One himself to introduce health-care mandates to America?

What I can’t figure out, though, is why O would run the risk of the mandate being struck down before the election. That would be demoralizing for the left and delegitimizing for Obama. What’s left of his first term if his signature domestic policy “achievement” ends up rubbished by SCOTUS as a violation of the Commerce Clause? I guess the thinking is that if the mandate is struck down, he can point to it as proof for liberals that they desperately need to appoint more left-wing justices to the Court and the only way to do that is to re-elect him. But even so, Obama’s not the kind of guy who wants to deal with X factors in the middle of the campaign: That’s why the Bush tax cuts were extended until after election day and why he insisted on a debt-ceiling deal that would carry through past November of next year. Now suddenly, by bypassing the 11th Circuit rehearing, he’s risking the Court dropping a flaming bag of shinola on his doorstep four months before the polls open. He must be awwwwwwfully confident that he’s going to win.

It's possible that Obama is a victim of lefty epistemic closure, where everyone he knows thinks ObamaCare is the cat's meow.  Or, he may have experts telling him he will win at the Supreme Court.  Here is Orin Kerr predicting that the mandate will be upheld with 6 to 8 votes (Thomas is his only sure "no".)  Eva Rodriguez at the WaPo makes a similar calculation, as does Robert Barnes.

Or for more fanciful thinking - would a Supreme Court rejection of the individual mandate re-vitalize the left by reviving the public option?  I can't imagine Obama wanting to run on "Health Care II - This Times, Let's Keep It Legal", but who knows?

Comments

[Neo]

Sorry, I know I told some of you folks that I would have a story on Hillary's connection to Gunwalker this week, but I have to make sure this one's right ...

[Neo]

In what appears to be an attempt to overwhelm their critics, postal union members have sent more than 100 pounds of mail to a tea party group advocating for United States Postal Service reform. ... “I find the idea of the unions attacking a tea party group for simply supporting a bill that would make our whole country more efficient and that would lower the cost of the taxpayers’ yearly contributions to an inefficient agency, is just outrageous"

Isn't this an admission that the USPS is part of the problem ?

[Thomas Collins]

I hope Perry isn't done because of his tuition policies re illegals. No candidate can satisfy every voter on every issue. Perry has put entitlement reform front and center in his campaign. I can't blame folks for getting angry about the tuition issue, but the simple fact of the matter is that if we don't reform entitlements, we won't have to worry abour illegals or legals, because we're going down the toilet.

[Thomas Collins]

For light bedtime reading on Friday night, see LUN for the Eleventh Circuit opinion. The severability discussion is in Part VII. (pages 189-205). That portion of the severability discussion dealing with the insurance reforms (guaranteed issue and prohibition of preexisting conditions exclusion) is contained in subpart C. of Part VII. (pages 194-205). The Eleventh Circuit viewed as a close question the issue of whether the insurance reforms could be severed from the individual mandate. Ultimately, however, as has been noted above, the Eleventh Circuit decided that the entire remainder of ObamaCare could be severed from the individual mandate.

[peter]

I would say that Tampa Bay made a pretty resounding statement about Texas tonight.

[Captain Hate]

I'm not convinced Perry is done.

I'm not either but I don't think it's asking too much for him to have explained the situation as coherently as Janet did @ 6:33.

Janet 2012

[Thomas Collins]

It's early, peter, but I'll bet Texas would have been happier playing the Red Flops.

[Jane]

I just want you all to know I am watching myself on Tv right now. I know it is obnoxious to announce that, but it is still very weird.

[Thomas Collins]

Only problem, CH, is that Janet, as a newcomer, probably ultimately wouldn't get the nomination, but she'd absolutely embarrass the rest of the GOP field with her piercing but humane wit and clearheaded reasoning.

[Thomas Collins]

Is there anywhere we can access the show, Jane?

[caro]

How does the lipstick look,Jane?

[Ignatz]

--Surely this is an onerous precedent, antithetical to a free society, and should be overturned.--

I would hope that goes without saying.

[Clarice]

Odd to hear one's voice, too, isn't it, Jane?

[Janet]

Thanks, but no way...I have a very sordid background! I inhaled....& I've got numerous friends in low places. I also couldn't hide my smoking. If a debate became too boring I might even be off to the side of the stage puffing away.

[Ignatz]

--Is there anywhere we can access the show, Jane?--

Jane's house. BYOB.

[Janet]

I would LOVE to see Jane on TV.

[Captain Hate]

Yes TC; Janet would give Duke & Duke terminal conniptions with her honesty and goodhearted nature, something which is an outlying point of their business as usual.

[MarkO]

Do you look hot, Jane? I'm guessing, yes.

[Pops]

Janet, et al.

Why does every person who takes Perry's side, INCLUDING PERRY HIMSELF have to start their argument by mis-identifying the issue??

We are not talking about legal citizens, we are not talking about legal citrizen kids whose parents are iillegal, we aren't talking about not providing a FREE public education and we are not talking about barring them from college.

We are only talking about actual illegal aliens who have their tuition paid for by other citizens, and not just texans, because evry student ends up making up the difference. They don't reduce the amount they pay professors, they don't reduce the state employees pay to make it up, they take citizens tax dollars to pay for illegal aliens and its a one-way street.

[centralcal]

Jane, for heaven's sake - how can we "watch" you too? Helloooo Jane!

[peter]

Terry Francona the latest to lose his job in the Obama economy

[Jane]

I'm used to my voice, and frankly it is my best asset, but I hate having my picture taken, so that part freaks me out. I'm learning not to move around so much. Oh and the lipstick is good, Caro.

You are all invited to visit. It plays 6 times every weekend so you can come whenever you want.I'll serve booze, you may need it. And Mark, I will leave you to your delusions.

On another note, the tea party did a stand out in Sturbridge today, and the reaction was interesting. Lots of young kids giving us the thumbs up, and lots of young kids giving us the finger. We are getting more and more polarized.

[Pops]

DallasNews 2010:

15 March 2010 12:17 PM

The number of illegal immigrant college students paying in-state tuition and receiving financial aid at Texas' public colleges and universities continues to climb, according to state higher education records.

During the fall semester, 12,138 students - benefited from the state law granting in-state tuition, according to the Texas Higher Education Coordinating Board.
Texas awarded about $33.6 million in state and institutional financial aid to those students between fall 2004 and summer 2008.
-------------------------------

And it continues to rise.

Of course they can't legally work in Texas after we paid for their degree.

[Danube of Thought]

Filburn could have used some of his allowed production for his own use, or done without wheat. He was not forced to buy anything.

One of the judges in the 11th Circuit majority said in oral argument that Wickard might have been even a greater intrusion on individual liberty than the insurance mandate.

[Janet]

I know Pops. I was upset about it when my daughter was accepted at UT but we couldn't afford out of state tuition. I joked that we were gonna drop her off in Mexico & have her swim over to Texas to get in-state.

[Jane]

Ya know I'm pretty sure illegals in MA get in-state tuition. They get free Romney care and a pass on breaking any law. Romney should talk.

[pagar]

""postal union members have sent more than 100 pounds of mail to"

Under the Obama admin NLRB unions can do anything they want to do.

"it retroactively took action and cancelled secret ballots that had already been cast or were set to be cast.

http://biggovernment.com/dloos/2011/09/30/obamas-nlrb-shredding-of-democracy-exposed-in-congressional-hearing/

Does anyone believe people who are willing to end secret ballots in union elections have any qualms about ending secret ballots in general elections in America?

[Army of Davids]

Early estimtions for next Friday's payroll number...

50,000 jobs created.

What would that number be if ObamaCare had never been passed?

We will never know. But I'll bet it would be a good bit higher.

[boris]

Illegal immigration is a national issue that can only be addressed with cooperation of both sides. Cooperation that is not in the cards (for the foreseeable future).

The dimorats have no intention of stopping the influx ... for ideological reasons that can be dressed up in their own minds as compassion but are more about political advantage. They want to spin the issue to (1) lock in the hispanic vote, legal and otherwise (2) drive conservatives to self destruction about something they have no control over.

There is no solution as long as the situation remains like it is now.

In the meantime there are strong valid reasons why the GOP should avoid advocating anything the looks like defacto apartheid ... with a large fraction of population subject to "untouchable" status. Those optics are rotten.

IMO the only issue worth addressing now is border security. Until that can be stopped obsessing over tuition is just drinking the koolaid.

[Clarice]

big fur Hat's doing some MO and her common touch campaign. Here's one
http://iowntheworld.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/MICHELLEKEGSTAND.jpg

[pagar]

Illegal Immigration!

"newsrooms discontinue using the terms “illegal alien” and “illegal immigrant.”

"Rebecca Aguilar Resurfaces, Gets Journalists to Quit Using Ordinary Legal Terms in their Reports"

You can read the rest at The Tatler at Pajamas Media.

[pagar]

Clarice, one could have nightmares over that picture.

[Thomas Collins]

Click on the word "petition" in the first paragraph of the LUNed article to obtain access to the petition to review the Eleventh Circuit decision.

[cathyf]

Stupid question I know, but I'll ask it anyway.

Does any politician in Chicago ever obey the law?

Carol Moseley Braun failed to file documentation on how campaign spent $315K.

Yeah, the term we use is that Moseley Braun is a member of the Criminal Caucus.

(Of course this whole freaking administration is the Criminal Caucus.)

[Thomas Collins]

And the Feds have asked SCOTUS to delay review of the petition (by the losing party in the Sixth Circuit) to hear an appeal from the Sixth Circuit's decision (upholding ObamaCare) pending the SCOTUS's decision on the Feds' petition to review the Eleventh Circuit decision. In the alternative, the Feds requested SCOTUS to consolidate the two cases.

[Thomas Collins]

See LUN for the petition from my 11:08 post for the Feds' petition to delay on the Sixth Circuit decision.

So, the Feds' would prefer that SCOTUS hears only the Eleventh Circuit case. The Feds' argument is that consolidating the two cases would complicate the briefing without a corresponding benefit (that is, a SCOTUS decision in the Eleventh Circuit case can be applied to resolve the other case).

[Clarice]

I expect the court will consolidate the cases, don't you? As for why else DoJ might have sought a delay of the review of the 6th's decision, my recollection is that it was very poorly reasoned.

[Thomas Collins]

I agree, Clarice, that they ought to consolidate. The argument by the Feds that the losing party in the Sixth Circuit could file amicus briefs doesn't strike me as particularly compelling.

[Rick Ballard]

"Early estimations for next Friday's payroll number...

50,000 jobs created.

That may be a tad optimistic. The Commerce personal income report today, showing the first drop in income in two years, strongly suggests a flat to negative employment report.

[Thomas Collins]

In any event, whichever way SCOTUS goes, there will be ample fodder for student law review notes and faculty tenure pieces. And most importantly, TM initiated threads at JOM!

[Dave (in MA)]

Ya know I'm pretty sure illegals in MA get in-state tuition. They get free Romney care and a pass on breaking any law. Romney should talk.

The in-state tuition for illegals happened under Cadillac Deval's watch.

[Clarice]

Virginia has filed its appeal with SCOTUS tonight:
and from CBS:

WASHINGTON - Late Friday, the White House turned over new documents in the Congressional investigation into the ATF "Fast and Furious" gunwalking scandal.

The documents show extensive communications between then-ATF Special Agent in Charge of the Phoenix office Bill Newell - who led Fast and Furious - and then-White House National Security Staffer Kevin O'Reilly. Emails indicate the two also spoke on the phone. Such detailed, direct communications between a local ATF manager in Phoenix and a White House national security staffer has raised interest among Congressional investigators looking into Fast and Furious. Newell has said he and O'Reilly are long time friends.

[Ignatz]

--The number of illegal immigrant college students paying in-state tuition and receiving financial aid at Texas' public colleges and universities continues to climb, according to state higher education records.--

I guess I'm kind of naive on this. If they know the precise number of actual illegal aliens receiving in state tuition then presumably they know which ones are the illegals.
Since nearly every person at university or a college is an adult, why are they not deported rather than educated?
And if they are college age and illegal and therefor long past any amnesty program how can they be on a path to citizenship?
Any of you Texicans know?

[Clarice]

Iggie, Texas lacks authority to deport. Potential deportees are entitled to a trial before an federal immigration judge, and appeals before they can be deported and only the feds can initiate such proceedings.

[Porchlight]

Ignatz,

Supposedly they receive in-state tuition in exchange for embarking on some kind of path to citizenship, whatever that means. But it has no teeth - there's no penalty for never following through.

Yes, they're here. So what. Why do they get to jump the line ahead of US citizens and legally admitted international students?

Also, why does Perry respond to voter's legitimate questions about this issue by telling them they're heartless? That's what has really hurt him. Just imagine that type of response to other issues. It's Obamaesque.

[Porchlight]

Iggie, Texas lacks authority to deport.

Surely there is a middle ground between deporting and giving them a path to citizenship replete with in-state college tuition rates.

[Neo]

The documents show extensive communications between then-ATF Special Agent in Charge of the Phoenix office Bill Newell - who led Fast and Furious - and then-White House National Security Staffer Kevin O'Reilly. Emails indicate the two also spoke on the phone. Such detailed, direct communications between a local ATF manager in Phoenix and a White House national security staffer has raised interest among Congressional investigators looking into Fast and Furious. Newell has said he and O'Reilly are long time friends.

[jimmyk]

I can understand in the abstract that the mandate could be severable even without the severability clause in the legislation. But in this specific instance, removing the mandate makes the law fiscally nonviable. It's like saying one tire is severable from a car--technically true, but the car isn't drivable without it.

[Ignatz]

--Iggie, Texas lacks authority to deport. Potential deportees are entitled to a trial before an federal immigration judge, and appeals before they can be deported and only the feds can initiate such proceedings.--

Yeah I know clarice, but they could just as easily have passed a law saying when they sign up for tuition we'll hand em over to ICE.

--Supposedly they receive in-state tuition in exchange for embarking on some kind of path to citizenship, whatever that means.--

Oh, I see, Porch. That's an interesting bargain. You entered our country illegally so to make amends we'll grant you in state tuition and in return you will grant us the immense privilege of letting you become a citizen.
Those Texans drive as hard a bargain as the moonbeam Californicators.

--It's like saying one tire is severable from a car--technically true, but the car isn't drivable without it.--

How do you think we keep ending up in the ditch, jimmy?
One large Slurpee for the back of the bus, please!

[jimmyk]

Yeah, Iggy, maybe I should have stayed away from car metaphors. How about this: Obamacare is a big house of cards--while any one card is "severable", pull it out and the whole thing collapses.

Of course it's worse than that, because it's going to collapse anyway.

[rse]

My. My. My.

If it isn't one of the links between ICLEI and education.

LUN is the announcement by Arne Duncan from 2 days ago on the "Green Ribbon Schools" program. Who pays for these sites and provides the propaganda materials? With a noted assist from the EPA and the WH Council for Envmtal Authority.

Mel-what are the chances that the cos with the credentials to build and certify to these standards are pals in the best political tradition?

[glasater]

Virginia Makes Supreme Health Care Appeal
Cuccinelli on Greta's show this evening.

[Pops]

Perry is violating current Federal Law:

The law and order government who says Obama doesn't enforce laws...kind of doesn't care when it comes to his support for illegal aliens.

CURRENT FEDERAL LAW STATES:
Federal law passed in 1996 prohibits illegal aliens from receiving in-state tuition rates at public institutions of higher education. Specifically, Section 505 of the Illegal Immigration Reform and Immigrant Responsibility Act of 1996 (Title 8, Chapter 14, Sec. 1623(a)) states: "an alien who is not lawfully present in the United States shall not be eligible on the basis of residence within a State (or a political subdivision) for any postsecondary education benefit unless a citizen or national of the United States is eligible for such a benefit (in no less an amount, duration, and scope) without regard to whether the citizen or national is such a resident."

These state laws attempt to circumvent the federal law by simply not asking students whether they are in the US legally.

[Pops]

And I am really tired of the argument that we 'shouldn't punish children for the crimes of their parents'.

We do that all the time with American citizens.

---------------------------------------

Rick Perry just cuts Texas public education funding by 537 dollars per student, thats close to 4 Billion dollars.

But all the while taking funds away from American kids education he left the illegal alien subsidies alone.

Now how do you justify this heartless act against American kids, while trumpeting your funding for illegal aliens and saying if we try to cut that - your heartless.

PERRY'S PROBLEM IS HIS ARGUMENT WON'T FLY NO MATTER HOW HE TRIES TO EXCUSE IT.

He's violating Federal Law, he's cutting American kids funding and he's saying I'm a heartless bastard if I cut one penny from going to people here illegally.

He will never get my vote.

[Extraneus]

You make a strong case, Pops.

[Cecil Turner]

We're in the middle of a significant fiscal crisis. If this presidential election turns on education policies for illegal aliens, we're all doomed. It's a silly issue, and a good illustration of why that sort of debate does little to clarify the candidates' qualifications for office.

[Jack is Back!]

Pops, et. al.

I am no fan of the Texas model regarding in-state tuition for criminals but in a way, it is Perry and Texas exercising State rights regardless of what the Federal law says. And he has always defended this action because the Federal government refuses to secure the border. If he would stop there, okay. But he has really stepped in it with his "heartless" comment because that takes it outside of Texas. Can't have it both ways.

[Pops]

Clearly Perry is dodging again with the whole States rights issue.

It is long settled that the Federal government controls Immigration policy and Federal Law forbids subsidizing illegal aliens unless you do the same for all citizens in the country.

He can't claim the feds aren't enforcing the law - if he himself is breaking it to pander to Hispanics.

[Pops]

Do't get me wrong, I'm no fan of Romney either. But Romney could put Perry away right now by bringing up the education cuts Perry just signed in Texas and relating it to his heartless comment.

He would be holding Perry up to his own standard - is he heartless for cutting education to American kids.

Perry's problem is he can't answer the question.

Pery had a choice, more cuts in K-12 american children education, or cut the illegal alien subsidy, he chose to keep the subsidy for illlegals.

Add that to the whole immunization by fiat and its becoming clear he's not the principaled conservative he claims to be.

[jack is Back!]

Smile!

[DebinNC]

It's a silly issue

FWIW, my problem with Perry is not his stance on immigration issues, but his inept bungling when the issue was raised, i.e. why was he was embarrassingly unprepared to defend/explain his views over the course of three debates, even getting worse.

This week his dying-to-be-FLOTUS wife trotted out the "He's never had a debate coach..haha, but he sure does now..haha" excuse. Please, no. He has one more debate outing to change my mind, but I think Perry has intractable issues within that coaching can't fix.

[DebinNC]

And Perry has a serious crony capitalism record that's gone unexplored but will loom large in any ad war.

[jack is Back!]

DebinNC,

Exactly, and that is the dynamic that has given pause to Christie re-thinking his entry (although, I can't see him surviving the scrutiny of his conservative credentials or the physical abuse a national campaign provides). Probably the same for Palin. They see some one like Herman Cain taking advantage of the Perry fall while they are on on the sidelines and not able to do that.

[Never met the man, but I suspect he's a sneak.]

Durbin knows O'Reilly from working with him in the past.
============

[Cecil Turner]

FWIW, my problem with Perry is not his stance on immigration issues, but his inept bungling when the issue was raised, i.e. why was he was embarrassingly unprepared to defend/explain his views over the course of three debates, even getting worse.

I agree he handled it badly, but would liken it to handling a question on bedbugs badly. Who cares? All it shows is that he's not a very slick debater, which is at best a tertiary issue. And on the immigration issue itself, it probably makes him more electable, not less.

To extrapolate that into a vote for Romney is out there. IMNSHO, Romney is so far down the socialist accomodating continuum that he barely qualifies for the "RINO" moniker. I'm so unexcited about him I might seriously consider staying home (depending on other races). I recognize I'm hardly representative, even for conservatives, but wonder how many of the base would sit out a Romney general election. I suspect it's more than you'd think, and that he's actually less electable.

[Jane]

And I am really tired of the argument that we 'shouldn't punish children for the crimes of their parents'.

We do that all the time with American citizens.

Pops,

Sheesh your post really put me back on my heels. I'm a Perry fan and I also agree with you. Now I am verklempt.

[boris]

The way to secure the border is to administer a dimorat drubbing so severe the pols and bureaucrats perceive cooperation to be a matter of political and career survival.

A severe drubbing that's not going to happen if conservatives form a circular firing squad every time the issue comes up.

[boris]

"We do that all the time with American citizens"

Maybe we shouldn't. Two wrongs ...

[Threadkiller]

Still unanswered from our Texas delegation: How did this "dream act" pass so overwhelmingly(177-4, I think) in the Texas legislature? Have any state politicians felt the same repercussions Perry is experiencing? What gives?

[Pops]

Boris,
I'm pretty sure no one cared if Anwar Awlaki's kids were in his car with him.

So if Perry really believes you are 'punishing' the children of illegals because of what their parents did, then what about all the American kids that went to Texas schools and their parents lived and worked in Texas for decades and paid school taxes, etc. and then the parent decides to move to Florida when the kids are 16 and 17?

Perry says - sorry no heart for you; you pay out of State tuition kid.
Is that not punishing the kids for the parents?? Except in that case the parents were doing something LEGAL, not breaking federal law.

[boris]

"I'm pretty sure no one cared if Anwar Awlaki's kids were in his car with him."

Pretty sure nobody opposes sending the illegal parents' children back to Mexico with them if that's your analogy.

It seems possible to say the "problem" is charging out of state tuition. The people who benefit from the distinction are Texas taxpayers. Sounds to me like they voted for the current situation. Not sure anybody else's sense of fairness is relevant.

[Ignatz]

--So if Perry really believes you are 'punishing' the children of illegals....--

Again, are we talking about the children of illegals, most of whom, for better or worse, are anchor baby citizens or are we talking about recipients of in state tuition who are actually illegals themselves?
It's not a small point but in either case it seems to me it's dwarfed by the question of preventing illegal immigration in the first place, since it renders the first issue increasingly irrelevant if the border is secured.
I find Perry's stance there more troubling than the tuition thing, since as TK points out just about every person in the TX legislature was for the tuition deal.
Fences work, period. And there's no shame in a country building one to keep illegals out; only when it's necessary to build one to keep its citizens in.

[Melinda Romanoff]

kim-

None bigger.

[boris]

"Perry's stance there more troubling"

Supposedly Obama told a border state official that securing the border would not be a big problem for the US government if it chose to do so. But that is not going to happen as long as the GOP refuses to get on board for bipartisan amnesty.

The obvious inference makes it seem like the GOP is the obstacle holding up border security ... but dimorats have no intention of holding up thier part. Ever.

[Pops]

'Pretty sure nobody opposes sending the illegal parents' children back to Mexico with them if that's your analogy.'

So in your mind living in you home country where you legally recide and are a citizen of; is the same as a bomb exploding your car and killing you.

Hummm.

No, my analogy was American children being denied the benefit simply because of a legal decision by their parents...to move from Texas to Florida. This is Perrys position...illegal alien parent breaks law - kid gets benefit...American parent, follows law, kid losses out on benefit.

[boris]

"is the same as a bomb exploding your car and killing you"

So are you calling me a terrorist now? Is it Obama who killed me or Dick Cheney? Cuz that would make a big difference in the big picture.

[Army of Davids]

Thomas Donahue, U.S. Chamber of Commerce, on the mandates, new taxes, uncertainties and new regulations in ObamaCare.....

"it's a job killer"

[Threadkiller]

Iggy, I think Perry is failing, once again, to explain with clarity the "fence" problem. There are many places where a physical fence won't do jack. Where do you fence the Rio Grande? As the river has changed course of the years, treaties have resolved ownership issues between the US and Mexico. I posted a story, on a previous thread, that showed how they have built ramp trucks to clear the fence.

It is Perry's own fault that he looks weak on border security.

[Pops]

Apparently some still don't get what this Perry legislation was, it has NOTHING to do with kids who are citizens (who's parents are illegal). Under this law, you SIGN and SWEAR an affadavit that you are an illegal alien and that you plan to apply for residency in the United States (Not tht you have applied, but that you will sometime).

Perry was also asked about that in the debate and he claimed the Texas Education Agency checks and follows up to make sure that happens. But reporters followed up and found the TEA does NOT do that, in fact they only monitor K-12 education.

In fact PolitiFact says:
"For the moment, it appears that no state agency checks up on whether students benefiting from HB 1403 pursue permanent residency. We rate both Perry's claim — and his campaign aide's attempted correction — False."

[Ignatz]

--Where do you fence the Rio Grande?--

Well TK, as I noted before, as long as Mexico is allowing and encouraging its citizens to invade our country, a confident and ascendant US would build it on Mexico's side of the river and dare em to take it down.
A fence is not the be all and end all, but in tandem with employer sanctions and greater use of e-verify along with cutting off welfare for illegals, the problem would essentially vanish.

[glasater]

So Pops, are you saying that if Perry got the nomination you wouldn't vote at all?
That would essentially give Obama a vote...by your not voting that is.

[Ignatz]

--Apparently some still don't get what this Perry legislation was, it has NOTHING to do with kids who are citizens (who's parents are illegal).--

Thanks for someone finally answering my repeatedly asked but never responded to question for which I couldn't find a clear answer through binging.
I could have done without the exasperated huffiness, but beggars can't be choosers, I guess.

[glasater]

I've driven across the border into Mexico and government officials keep track of you when you get into their country.
There is kind of an open zone along the borders where Mexico has relaxed rules for trade/enterprise purposes. But as one goes farther into the country one has to do some very serious paperwork at checkpoints.

[Threadkiller]

I missed the build it on their side plan. That is a great idea!

If Perry could repeat your last paragraph, on a national stage, he would do much better.

[narciso]

Come on, Pops, you know better than to rely on 'there are no death panels' Politifacts, which is McClatchy's SouthWest Florida arm,

[Ignatz]

--Under this law, you SIGN and SWEAR an affadavit that you are an illegal alien and that you plan to apply for residency in the United States (Not tht you have applied, but that you will sometime).--

Wondered about how that works.
This link, apparently from some commie lawyer who specializes in getting illegals residency, seems to say their options are fairly limited, especially if their parents are illegals too but by the end of the column he's bragging about the chances for permanent residency of some broad who is an illegal who was arrested for battery of her illegal husband, solely because they have two teenaged sons. Doesn't say whether the sons are citizens but based on his earlier comments it seems they'd have to be for her to have a chance.
So I'm still not clear on exactly how an illegal just saunters on down to immigration and applies for residency with much hope of success.

[Ignatz]

--I missed the build it on their side plan.--

You should sign up for my email service which notifies you when I've made one of my trenchant comments here at JOM. :)

[Porchlight]

It's a silly issue, and a good illustration of why that sort of debate does little to clarify the candidates' qualifications for office.

On the contrary, having watched Perry in action for several years, I happen to believe that the DREAM Act issue is quite clarifying and illustrates several key weaknesses of Perry's.

1. He takes credit for everything good in Texas and blames the Feds for everything bad.

2. Says different things to different constituencies - first he doubled down on the DREAM Act, then when he figured out it didn't poll well he came out with "the Feds made me do it."

3. The "heartless" comment suggests that he'll blame voters, too, if he doesn't like their pushback.

4. His support from big business depends on an endless supply of cheap illegal labor, and he'll do what it takes to maintain that supply. I don't think it's a stretch to imagine that will translate to doing a lot of other favors for those same supporters once in higher office.

YMMV

[Threadkiller]

Where did it not poll well, porch? How did it do so well in the Texas legislature?

[Porchlight]

Polling may be too technical a word, TK. I meant that his debate answer on it did not go over well and that's why he changed his tune this week.

As for the TX Lege, I have no idea. The Lege was significantly less Republican in 2001 before re-districting. But regardless, Perry voiced full support of it during *this* campaign, so no matter the circumstances of its passing in 2001, he owns it now.

[Threadkiller]

The program has been around since 2001? Was there a referendum against the people that created it? I am so confused on how it is accepted in Texas.

[Porchlight]

Yes, it was passed by the legislature in 2001. The reason it was accepted in Texas is that Dems are pro-illegals and Repubs are pro-cheap labor and everyone got together on it so as to look compassionate and pro-education. That's about all I can figure, anyway.

BTW I do agree with others that this particular piece of legislation is a drop in the bucket. I just think it's a very illustrative one, same as Gardasil.

[boris]

"Dems are pro-illegals and Repubs are pro-cheap labor"

I am neither pro-illegals nor pro-cheap (illegal) labor. If we can't keep them out (feds) and we can't send them back (feds) then an accomodation that suits the state of Texas is okay with me. It's not a "tell" I'm interested in.

[glasater]

I've been around Mexicans since I was a little kid when my Dad was a principal at a small country school in the Yakima Valley and had migrant workers kids come in to the school -- mostly from Texas -- every Spring. And in those days there were quite a few white migrant workers.
I don't have quite the problem with illegals as some people have expressed in this forum because they do jobs that caucasians will not do. So until that fine day comes along when jobless white people or black people for that matter do the back breaking jobs of harvesting onions, grapes, apples, etc. I pretty much ignore this issue.
I just don't want them voting.

[Porchlight]

Like I said, YMMV, boris.

But pretend it's not about illegal immigration. Pick any issue or legislation and then imagine that if on Thursday a candidate said:

I fully support this initiative, I thought it was the right thing to do at the time and I think it's the right thing to do now, and if you don't agree with me, you don't have a heart.

and then saw how poorly that went over and on the following Thursday said:

Actually, I don't think it's the right thing to do. I didn't want to do it but the Feds forced my hand.

Does that strike you as principled?

That's what I'm trying to get across when I say it's illustrative.

[boris]

"Does that strike you as principled?"

Apparently so since my stated position on this site has been similar. See if you can figure out how that is consistant with ...

If we can't keep them out (feds) and we can't send them back (feds) then an accomodation that suits the state of Texas is okay with me.

Because it looks pretty consistant to me.

[Porchlight]

Okay, boris, if you think that taking the following positions inside of one week:

1) I fully support X and you're a jerk if you don't and

2) I actually don't support X but someone else made me do it

is consistent and principled, go for it.

[boris]

1) The feds stuck us with a problem

2) Our accomodation to the situation was based on what we thought was right under that circumstance

3) That doesn't mean we advocate what the feds forced upon us or that we would have done anything simlar without that or that we would consider it the right thing to do without that.

[Porchlight]

That makes sense. But that wasn't his response. He gave the act unqualified support at the time of passage and at the debate. Then he qualified it later by saying he wouldn't have supported it, but circumstances forced his hand.

In other words he only walked it back/provided the larger context when he felt he had to. Had he explained it the way you did from the beginning, I wouldn't be taking issue with it.

He seems to have formulated a pretty good revision of his earlier position so maybe he'll win folks back with it. We'll see.

[Like lucia and Lord Monckton.]

Two different kinds of consistent there, porch and Boris. You're both right.
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