Powered by TypePad

« Post Game | Main | The Collectivization Of Life, Liberty, And The Pursuit Of Happiness »

September 23, 2011

Comments

Captain Hate

With an idiot like this advising them, is there any wonder Enron went tits up?

Danube of Thought

I assume all those income figures are pre-tax.

narciso

Krugman, reminds me about that Dangerfield line in 'Back to School 'he really seems to care, about what I have no idea'

Clarice

misleading statistics and dubious moral claims is us.

Captain Hate

During that period, Rodney could've probably skewered Duke and Duke as effectively as he did country clubs and colleges; if Eddie Murphy hadn't been available.

centralcal

...increased lumpiness in compensation.

Does that phrase seem to cry out for a bgates treatment?

Comanche Voter

Krugman has beclowned and befouled himself so much over the years that, if he were a parakeet (with an old NYT edition on the bottom of the cage) he'd be squished between the top of a very tall cage and his own "birdcrap" below.

bgates

So do the wealthy look to you like the victims of class warfare?

First, that's a ballsy question to ask after two paragraphs of misleading income statistics designed to whet his readership's appetite for class warfare.

Second, what's the argument here - "Obama can't possibly be proposing class warfare against the rich now, because look how much money they made during the Bush administration"?

matt

Michael Moore is making threats now as well. Looks like the Journo-List is back agitating again.

narciso

They never stopped, matt, much like Horatio
Caine, 'they never close'

Jane

Hey, I just posted about Liz at You Too.

Benjamin Franklin

Warren: http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/political-animal/2011_09/the_underlying_social_contract032342.php

"“I hear all this, you know, ‘Well, this is class warfare, this is whatever,’” she said. “No. There is nobody in this country who got rich on his own. Nobody.

“You built a factory out there? Good for you. But I want to be clear: you moved your goods to market on the roads the rest of us paid for; you hired workers the rest of us paid to educate; you were safe in your factory because of police forces and fire forces that the rest of us paid for. You didn’t have to worry that marauding bands would come and seize everything at your factory, and hire someone to protect against this, because of the work the rest of us did.

“Now look, you built a factory and it turned into something terrific, or a great idea? God bless. Keep a big hunk of it. But part of the underlying social contract is you take a hunk of that and pay forward for the next kid who comes along.”

Class Warfare? Mmmmmppppfff !

Ignatz

--Now, I know how the right will respond to these facts: with misleading statistics and dubious moral claims.--

Funny that the first dog's butt to win the Nobel prize in economics should say that, since his column came out precisely one day after this prescient and useful article on median income at Forbes by Kyle Smith.

Captain Hate

Since this seems to be a popular culture reference thread, was anybody as turned off as I was by Ashton Kutcher being on "Two and a Half Men" doing in essence the same role from "That 70s Show"? Not that following Charlie Sheen, who was extremely unfunny and pathetic in recent seasons, is something they want to waste any talent on. Also CSI-Cheers felt strange.

Ignatz

--But part of the underlying social contract is you take a hunk of that and pay forward for the next kid who comes along.--

The "social contract" Warren describes does not require a "hunk" [is she a poet?] from anyone, rich or poor.
Fire, police, roads are indeed proper functions of the state. I happen to think public education is a disaster and should be abolished but even if one grants it is a proper state function all of them put together require fairly minimal taxes and more importantly NONE of them are a proper function of the federal government other than the enforcement of federal crimes and a little bit of interstate highway work.
The "hunk" we are asked to pay for the federal government is, besides defense, almost wholly a creation of a new and largely unconstitutional and definitely unsustainable progressive "social contract" that has little to nothing to do with the one this country was founded on.

Benjamin Franklin

" this prescient and useful article on median income "

"The American economic story looks considerably more like dynamism than stagnation, and the worrisome “long term” trends are, so far, just short-term ones dating back all of 36 months."

Yeah. Everything's coming up roses....we're winning in Iraq and we can't do anything about cow flatulence and there are no approaching glaciers.

Whew !!!

narciso

Even under Rawl's rather expansive view of a Social Contract, that explanation doesn't make much sense, I chalk it up that shee doesn't understand what she is talking about.

Benjamin Franklin

"a creation of a new and largely unconstitutional and definitely unsustainable progressive "social contract" that has little to nothing to do with the one this country was founded on."

It was founded during an agrarian period with an economic foundation which required cheap labor (slaves), but as we evolve culturally and if we find the status quo unacceptable, we change and move forward.

Captain Hate

Nice, Iggy; I can only hope that Scotty Centerfold can provide at least half as articulate a response as you stated. Although at times he seems like such a pandering jackhole that he might just say "what she says goes double for me".

Ignatz

--Yeah. Everything's coming up roses....we're winning in Iraq and we can't do anything about cow flatulence and there are no approaching glaciers.

Whew !!!--

Very convincing rebuttal.

Danube of Thought

Does Warren think anyone disputes the propriety of paying taxes for roads, police, highways and public education?

What these people want to do is take a larger "hunk" from investment bankers who wouldn't touch Solyndra with a ten-foot pole so it can be "invested" by the Energy Department wizards who fell in love with it.

Ignatz

--.......and if we find the status quo unacceptable, we change and move forward.--

Which is exactly what is scaring the bejeebus out of you and your fellow travelers as Barry's progressive experiment blows up in your hands.
Instead of admitting the truth you do what all leftists do and pretend he's somehow betraying the revolution and it's failing again because it's never really been tried.

jimmyk

It's almost certain that most of that top 0.1 percent vary from one year to the next. But the group in the middle also changes. I don't have the studies handy, but many in that middle group move up to the next, and some in the current middle moved up from lower groups. Of course some move down as well. But the point is more general: You can't learn much of anything from these statistics about how actual people are faring. Krugman knows this--he's smart but evil.

MarkO

Less Krugman, please. Is it like soft toss for the thread?

NK

Tom- Love your conclusion:

"Let's be aware of this bit of projection from the Earnest Prof:
'Now, I know how the right will respond to these facts: with misleading statistics and dubious moral claims.'
Indeed."

Perfect. Herr Doktor K knows he's full of poop, and he's giving up the game by telling his Upper West Side readers to ignore the real data that put the lie to his BS. It's like the 'Wizard' teling the masses to ignore the silly man behind the curtain. Dr. K IS that silly man-- in spades.

Benjamin Franklin

" it's failing again because it's never really been tried."

The truth of your statement speaks volumes about the efforts to stop it.

"The single most important thing we want to achieve is for President Obama to be a one-term president," Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell told National Journal's Major Garrett in October.

Fox News' Bret Baier asked McConnell Sunday if that was still his major objective.

"Well, that is true," McConnell replied. "That's my single most important political goal, along with every active Republican in the country."

If it fails it's because Obama failed.

Danube of Thought

"It was founded during an agrarian period with an economic foundation which required cheap labor (slaves)"

This twaddle, reflecting a shocking ignorance of the debates surrounding the founding and the founding documents themselves. It is roughly as sensible as saying "it was founded during a period when the winters were very cold." But what else should we expect?

Ignatz

--The truth of your statement speaks volumes about the efforts to stop it.--

The truth of my statement reveals the dishonesty of yours and your entire world view.
"It" has been tried in various forms for centuries, from Plymouth Rock to the Ukraine, and it ALWAYS fails miserably.

People want to stop it not because it's never been tried and it might succeed. Normal, sentient, non-blinkered people try to stop it because it has been tried hundreds of times and ALWAYS produces misery, despair and death.
But true believers like you always have some lame delusion to explain away the piles of corpses and bankrupt states and communities left in the wake of progressivism, statism, collectivism, whatever ism you wish to apply to the age old desire to covet your neighbors' property and life.

bgates

Does Warren think anyone disputes the propriety of paying taxes for roads, police, highways and public education?

I dispute the propriety of paying taxes for public education. Also, roads are fine, but I draw the line at highways.

Danube of Thought

This *is* twaddle...

Benjamin Franklin

"Normal, sentient, non-blinkered people try to stop it because it has been tried hundreds of times and ALWAYS produces misery, despair and death."

Apples and oranges...what revolutions? isn't the Tea Party considered a revolution?

Semantics.......

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-cooperation_movement

MLK used the same approach. Was it a failure?

Danube of Thought

From a woman who was at the debate:

"I was at the debate, in the audience on the right hand side about halfway back (here's my tweet of the video screen that was right in front of us). The person who booed was just a few rows in front of us. The booing got an immediate and angry reaction from nearly everyone sitting around him, who hissed and shushed at him. Lots of loud gasps, "Shhhh!" "No!" "Shut up, you idiot!" etc."

Kathy Kattenburg

It was founded during an agrarian period with an economic foundation which required cheap labor (slaves), but as we evolve culturally and if we find the status quo unacceptable, we change and move forward.
Not to mention the fact that the concept of a "social contract" between individuals and the government comes from Rousseau's book of the same name. Rousseau was a key Enlightenment figure, and the United States was founded on Enlightenment principles -- or, if you prefer, the Founders were deeply influenced by Enlightenment values and ideas.

That same book by Rousseau has the famous line that everyone, including the anti-government far right, likes to quote: "Man is born free, and everywhere he is in chains." Rousseau's concept of a social contract derives from that fundamental notion -- that meaningful individual freedom is realized through the contract between the people and its government. But of course, right-wingers want to take the ringing line that sounds great (and is great), while rejecting the governing mechanisms that make it real.

narciso

Actually Kathy is it is the 'General Will' embodied in Rousseau's conception of the general will, that leads to Jacobinism, Bonapartism, fascism and communism, and all other forms of despotism

Clarice

Rousswau, the guy who pawned his kids off to godawful orphanages as soon as they were born? That champion of the natural and good life?

Benjamin Franklin

""Man is born free, and everywhere he is in chains." Rousseau's concept of a social contract derives from that fundamental notion -- that meaningful individual freedom is realized through the contract between the people and its government."

Hi Kathy..

The anarchic notion that business and it's customers need not be
antagonistic, but symbiotic is what is objected to. It reminds me of the story of how Heaven and Hell differ.

A man goes through the Pearly Gates and asks St Peter; Where shall I go. "You must be hungry, your dining hall is the first on the left"

Upon entering the man finds a huge table filled with delectable dishes. But his eagerness turns to disappointment when he finds everyone struggling to eat with forks too long to reach their mouths.

The frustration felt by all in the Hall was palpable, including his.
Returning to the Gate he asks; "Everyone is hungry, how do you expect them to eat? Is this Heaven?" "No, Heaven is in Hall #2, but you are not allowed to eat there. But you can visit for a short while."

Upon entering, there was little difference in Hall #2 except everyone was happy and eating to their heart's content, because they were feeding each other with the elongated utensils.

------------------------------------------------------

But I am sure some will find fault with the analogy..........

Ignatz

--Not to mention the fact that the concept of a "social contract" between individuals and the government comes from Rousseau's book of the same name. Rousseau was a key Enlightenment figure, and the United States was founded on Enlightenment principles -- or, if you prefer, the Founders were deeply influenced by Enlightenment values and ideas.--

Virtually all of the Founders were hostile to Rousseau and his philosophy, either all or in part.
Perhaps you are thinking of the French Revolution which indeed embraced Rousseau's principles and as a result ended up in what is known as the Reign of Terror.
Sounds like a dandy social contract to me.

Appalled

Kathy:

The Constitution and the Declaration are inspired by John Locke. I am not aware if the framers ever commented on Rousseau -- but I can't see Hamilton, Madison or Jay being a fan -- the Social Contract posited a Leader tuned in the waves of a mysterious Popular Will. As for Jefferson -- maybe.

In any event, this is Rousseau:

The sovereign, being formed wholly of the individuals who compose it, neither has nor can have any interest contrary to theirs; and consequently the sovereign power need give no guarantee to its subjects, because it is impossible for the body to wish to hurt all its members

This is about as alien to the design of the Constitution (designed to protect branches of the government from each other) and the Bill of Rights (designed to protect the people from the government) as it gets.

Zarkon

At the moment I am not aware of a single reference to Rousseau in any of the founders' writings. I am sure there are likely to be some, but it is certain that he played no material part in their thinking.

caro

Even 1-year-olds want to feed themselves.

Benjamin Franklin

An Examination of Rousseau's Influence on Jefferson's Declaration of Independence

http://www.customessaymeister.com/customessays/US%20Politics/3928.htm

Thomas Jefferson considered himself a contributor to the Age of Enlightenment. Through many of his writings he expounded upon the philosophies of the great European writers of that era - Rousseau, Locke, Hume, and Leibniz. Jefferson's Notes on Virginia, pamphlet A Summary View of the Rights of British America, and many of his letters adopted Enlightenment philosophy to the American colonies and the challenges they faced in declaring independence from the British crown and creating a new republic. In the Declaration of Independence, Jefferson directly adopted many themes found in the work of French writer Jean-Jacques Rousseau. In this paper I will explore several ways in which Rousseau's The Origin of Civil Society provides a foundation for much of Jefferson's ideas in the declaration.
In the opening of the Declaration of Independence, Jefferson lays out several main themes that reflect Rousseau's concepts. Jefferson borrowed from Rousseau's thinking on equality and freedom when he wrote, "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable Rights" (Jefferson 76). Rousseau spoke of equality by refuting the philosophies of Thomas Hobbes and Hugo Grotius. These men supported the notion that the term "human race" referred only to a small, select class of people - the ruling class (Rousseau 56). Rousseau thought the philosophies of these men lacked justification, that "All men are born free, and everywhere he is in chains"

Benjamin Franklin

Oh. I just noticed the reference to 'Ruling Class'.....

More class warfare...

Porchlight

The college professor quotes an essay mill in an attempt to make an argument. Incredible.

bgates

while rejecting the governing mechanisms that make it real

like Solyndra, public sector unions, cowboy poetry festivals....

Benjamin Franklin

" an attempt to make an argument. Incredible."

It should be simple to de-bunk the notion of Rousseau's influence over Jefferson..

Go for it............

narciso

Words fail, I think the line from 'Annie Hall'
best embodies it 'you teach a class, you know
nothing of my work,'

Rob Crawford

It was founded during an agrarian period with an economic foundation which required cheap labor (slaves)

But enough about the Democrat party...

Rob Crawford

But true believers like you always have some lame delusion to explain away the piles of corpses and bankrupt states and communities left in the wake of progressivism, statism, collectivism, whatever ism you wish to apply to the age old desire to covet your neighbors' property and life.

Bullshit. He knows exactly where it leads. They *ALL* know exactly where it leads.

THEY WANT THOSE RESULTS.

Dana has stated he *WANTS* to be a slaver. He *WANTS* to treat people as little more than cattle. The historically repeated end state of socialism is his desired goal.

Ignatz

--Bullshit. He knows exactly where it leads. They *ALL* know exactly where it leads.--

My point was they have to come up with an excuse for the rest of us who don't desire such an end and that it necessarily is in the form of a delusion as reality makes the opposite case. Perhaps "fantasy" would have been a better term.

--The historically repeated end state of socialism is his desired goal.--

Which is why I said he is the latest in a long line of those who covet their neighbor's property and lives.

Benjamin Franklin

"Dana has stated he *WANTS* to be a slaver. He *WANTS* to treat people as little more than cattle. The historically repeated end state of socialism is his desired goal."

'Liar' is not enough. You are an unmitigated, pathological, serial Liar.

Ignatz

--It should be simple to de-bunk the notion of Rousseau's influence over Jefferson..

Go for it............--

Rousseau was very slightly correct about a few limited things which is why I said he was rejected "all or in part" by the Founders.
The large and quite objectionable balance of Rousseau's work was anathema to the principles of the Founders and the Declaration and to a great deal of the Enlightenment itself, although an argument can be made they are the logical end of a good deal of the Enlightment's ideas, as the French Revolution and the various horrors that have descended from it demonstrate.

Appalled

Ben Franklin:

It should be simple to de-bunk the notion of Rousseau's influence over Jefferson..

Go for it............

Google is not your friend, on something like this, but Google books can be. What the giant google monster does make clear, with a serch of "Rosseau influenced Jefferson" is that this has been an area of historical dispute since the 19th century. Jefferson does not appear to have mentioned Rousseau in his voluminous writings, but certain historians find echos of Rousseau in the Declaration. The way, I think, to reasearch this, is to trace the availability of The Social Contract in the USA circa 1770, and to not attribute to Rousseau what can be attributed to Locke.

This is not the typical stuff you can do in 10 min on a Friday afternoon, so I think I will leave it at that.

Porchlight

The way, I think, to reasearch this, is to trace the availability of The Social Contract in the USA circa 1770, and to not attribute to Rousseau what can be attributed to Locke.

Interesting. Although Jefferson would have had access to French publications not widely (or at all) available in the colonies.

Which is not to say that I support the position that he was influenced by Rousseau. As you say, Locke covers it, and if Jefferson never mentioned Rousseau in his writings, that is certainly telling.

Jim Miller

Just so you can be ready to duck: NASA is now saying that parts of the UAR satellite might hit the US.

Kathy Kattenburg

Even 1-year-olds want to feed themselves.

And even 1-year-olds CAN feed themselves. If they have food.

Gosh, that one was easy.

Kathy Kattenburg

The college professor quotes an essay mill in an attempt to make an argument. Incredible.

But that essay includes supporting references at the end. It would take some effort to check them, because they're not online, but assuming they are real, it's only fair to take that into account before dismissing an essay simply because it comes from an "essay mill."

Porchlight

LOL.

Kathy Kattenburg

Just so you can be ready to duck: NASA is now saying that parts of the UAR satellite might hit the US.

Yes, but the odds of it hitting any one individual is one in 3,200, according to my local CBS news outlet.

So, be comforted.

MJW

That Jefferson-Rousseau essay is pitiful. All is says is Jefferson and Rousseau held some common views, so Jefferson must have taken them from Rousseau. That the Declaration of Independence "reflects Rousseau's thinking" or "obliquely borrows from Rousseau's argument" proves nothing. As Appalled so aptly pointed out, there's no reason to attribute Jefferson's ideas to Rousseau, whom he never mentions, when you can attribute them to Locke.

MJW

Yes, but the odds of it hitting any one individual is one in 3,200, according to my local CBS news outlet.

That's the odds of hitting any individual. It it were the odds of hitting any one individual, someone would almost certainly die!

Clarice

What are the odds that Kathy is really Sylvia?

Kathy Kattenburg

BF,

No problem. :-)

Kathy

Kathy Kattenburg

That's the odds of hitting any individual. It it were the odds of hitting any one individual, someone would almost certainly die!

I don't understand the distinction you're making.

Kathy Kattenburg

What are the odds that Kathy is really Sylvia?

Who is Sylvia, and why do you think I'm her?

Clarice

Because she was as dense and flighty as you are.

MJW

The odds of any one individual will be hit are the odds that any particular person you choose will be hit. So the odds that you'll be hit are one in 3,200, as are the odds I'll be hit. Since everyone has a one in 3,200 of being hit, the odds that no one will be hit would be miniscule. The odds the any individual would be hit are the odds that someone, somewhere will be hit. So the odds no one will be hit are 3,199 in 3,200.

Porchlight

I don't understand the distinction you're making.

The odds of it hitting somebody - any person anywhere in the world - are 1/3200.

The odds of it hitting a particular person, like you or me, are much, much less - like 3200 x (world population).

Kathy Kattenburg

... there's no reason to attribute Jefferson's ideas to Rousseau, whom he never mentions, when you can attribute them to Locke.

Here is what the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy has to say about John Locke:

John Locke (b. 1632, d. 1704) was a British philosopher, Oxford academic and medical researcher, whose association with Anthony Ashley Cooper (later the First Earl of Shaftesbury) led him to become successively a government official charged with collecting information about trade and colonies, economic writer, opposition political activist, and finally a revolutionary whose cause ultimately triumphed in the Glorious Revolution of 1688. Much of Locke's work is characterized by opposition to authoritarianism. This opposition is both on the level of the individual person and on the level of institutions such as government and church. For the individual, Locke wants each of us to use reason to search after truth rather than simply accept the opinion of authorities or be subject to superstition. He wants us to proportion assent to propositions to the evidence for them. On the level of institutions it becomes important to distinguish the legitimate from the illegitimate functions of institutions and to make the corresponding distinction for the uses of force by these institutions. The positive side of Locke's anti-authoritarianism is that he believes that using reason to try to grasp the truth, and determining the legitimate functions of institutions will optimize human flourishing for the individual and society both in respect to its material and spiritual welfare. This in turn, amounts to following natural law and the fulfillment of the divine purpose for humanity. Locke's monumental An Essay Concerning Human Understanding concerns itself with determining the limits of human understanding in respect to God, the self, natural kinds and artifacts, as well as a variety of different kinds of ideas. It thus tells us in some detail what one can legitimately claim to know and what one cannot. Locke also wrote a variety of important political, religious and educational works including the Two Treatises of Government, the Letters Concerning Toleration, The Reasonableness of Christianity and Some Thoughts Concerning Education.

URL: http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/locke/
Don't see anything in there inimical to the idea of there being a social contract between the individual and government.

Here is what the Academy of Natural Sciences has to say about the philosophers who most influenced Thomas Jefferson:

Of the two, Thomas Jefferson was arguably the most strongly influenced by European thinkers. Three prominent figures of the English Enlightenment, Isaac Newton, Francis Bacon and John Locke, were central to Thomas Jefferson's philosophy and outlook. For instance, in an 1811 letter to the Philadelphian physician Benjamin Rush, Jefferson reported that the three "were my trinity of the three greatest men the world had ever produced."

URL: http://www.ansp.org/museum/jefferson/otherPages/enlightenment.php
"Of the two" refers to Benjamin Franklin, who was also heavily influenced by European Enlightenment thinkers.

Here is some information on how Rousseau influenced the writers of our founding documents:

His influence on the United States can be found throughout the writings of the early founders. Read the words of the Declaration of Independence with the Social Compact in mind:
When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and Nature’s God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind required that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness.—That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just power from the consent of the governed.—That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government


Then again in the Constitution:
We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

URL: http://hua.umf.maine.edu/Reading_Revolutions/Rousseau.html

The emphasis is in the original, but I had to put it back in because it was stripped out in posting it here in the Comment box. In the original, the emphasis is done by underscoring; here I did it by using bold.

Kathy Kattenburg

Because she was as dense and flighty as you are.
Clarice, I admire your respect for substantive, intelligent arguments.

Kathy Kattenburg

Porchlight,

Okay. It seems like an esoteric distinction to me, but I do understand it.

Kathy

Clarice

Even in the crap you cite, no one claims Rosseau had a direct influence on Jefferson.

Sara (Pal2Pal)

"Dana has stated he *WANTS* to be a slaver. He *WANTS* to treat people as little more than cattle. The historically repeated end state of socialism is his desired goal."

If this is true, it sucks. But, I do not recall BF saying these things. When, where, context?

Danube of Thought

It seems that the material Kathy quotes establishes that Jefferson was particularly influenced by three Europen thinkers, none of whom was Rousseau. (It might also be a good idea at this point to note that Jefferson played no role in the drafting of the constitution.)

For my part, it does not seem that the bolded words and phrases from the Declaration establish much of a link to Rousseau himself, inasmuch as they were the common parlance of the day. I talk (and argue) often of the proper relations among Man, God and the State, but that does not mean I am influenced by Rousseau. It means I think about the same things he did.

Ignatz

--Don't see anything in there inimical to the idea of there being a social contract between the individual and government.--

A social contract as a political idea is nearly universally accepted; the question, as always, is what form it should take.

Clarice

That's a nicer way to put it than I did, DoT.
The interesting leaps from one point to another without any evidence , but only a desire to have something--no matter how factually lacking and unpersuasive-- to sustain a desired conclusion is so like Sylvia, isn't it?

Chubby

I don't know how reliable this source is but it is interesting in terms of who holds the top spot and how far down Rousseau is.


The Founding Fathers' Library LUN

((The Founding Fathers of the American Constitution made it clear what authors and texts had influenced their own thinking on the idea of liberty. Donald S. Lutz has examined the speeches, letters, journalism, and theoretical works of the founding generation in order to draw up a composite "library catalog" of that generation. His list includes most of the texts on the Goodrich Seminar Room list and a few more besides. Lutz's "top 40" texts (actually 37) by frequency of citation by the founding generation are listed below. ))

The "Top 40" Authors cited by the Founding Generation (with links to material in the Online Library of Liberty)

1.St. Paul
2.Montesquieu
3.Sir William Blackstone
4.John Locke
5.David Hume
6.Plutarch
7.Cesare Beccaria
8.John Trenchard and Thomas Gordon
9.Delolme
10.Samuel Pufendorf
11.Sir Edward Coke
12.Cicero
13.Thomas Hobbes
14.William Robertson
15.Hugo Grotius
16.Jean-Jacques Rousseau
17.Lord Bolingbroke
18.Francis Bacon
19.Richard Price
20.William Shakespeare
21.Livy
22.Alexander Pope
23.John Milton
24.Tacitus
25.Plato
26.Abbe Guillaume Raynal
27.Abbe Gabriel Mably
28.Niccolo Machiavelli
29.Emmerich de Vattel
30.William Petyt
31.Voltaire
32.John Robinson
33.Algernon Sidney
34.John Somers
35.James Harrington
36.Paul de Rapin-Thoyras

Sara (Pal2Pal)

Influence can be either positive or negative. If someone studies a variety of Enlightenment figures and their stated philosophies, you can reject some and accept others. Rejecting a position is not not being influenced by that position, it just means you were influenced in the negative and therefore rejected it or decided that position is not compatible with your own.

In this country, we have laws regarding undue influence, i.e, taking advantage of someone due to their vulnerabilities. But we influence each other all the time consciously and subconsciously, sometimes for good, sometimes not.

Free speech means we all have the right to speak up to influence others. Where it gets dicey is when it is "the government" trying to influence events/policy by decree rather than by the will of the people.

Are we influenced by our computers? No, they are machines, tools. We can be influenced by the content we can access by our computers. "The Government" is just a tool. It should have zero influence. It is the content that the people making up the parts of the tool produces that should be scrutinized, debated pro and con, and then accepted or rejected, by vote of the people who have voted to abide by that vote. The government is just the tool to put things into play, it, in itself, has no ability to influence.

As usual this is strictly my own opinion which I expect no one to either agree or disagree. (Disclaimer)

Danube of Thought

Thanks for that, Chubby. We can count ourselves lucky that they relied more heavily on ol' Samuel Pufendorf than on JJR.

Kathy Kattenburg

Even in the crap you cite, no one claims Rosseau had a direct influence on Jefferson.

The problem with your logic here, Clarice, is that I never claimed Rousseau had a direct influence on Jefferson. I didn't even mention Jefferson in my initial comment. So you're rebutting an argument I didn't make.

Kathy Kattenburg

I talk (and argue) often of the proper relations among Man, God and the State, but that does not mean I am influenced by Rousseau.

The argument here is not about Rousseau's influence on you, though. It's about the influence of Rousseau and other Enlightenment thinkers on the Founding Fathers.

Kathy Kattenburg

A social contract as a political idea is nearly universally accepted; the question, as always, is what form it should take.

What form do you think it should take?

Sara (Pal2Pal)

From Drudge:

Nasa put the odds of anyone being struck by a falling part of the spacecraft at one in 3,200. The individual risk to a particular person is much less – one in 3,200 multiplied by the billions that live under the satellite's flight path. "The odds of you as an individual being hit by this are around one in 20 trillion," Dr Robert Massey of the Royal Astronomical Society told the BBC.
Rick Ballard

Chubby,

your link is also supported by this piece which details references made by Jefferson himself in his Commonplace Book. I would note that Madison, Hamilton and Jay all gave precedence to Montesquieu above Locke as an influence. Witherspoon (Madison's mentor at Princeton) would have promoted both Locke and Montesquieu but Montesquieu was discussed more frequently than the Empiricists among his students.

narciso

Not surprisingly, Professor 'Red Herring' is mentioned in 'Confidence Men' apparently her
family's circumstances in the Depression figures into her world view,

Clarice

Another trick of Sylvia's is to try to shift the terms of the debate when she's lost.

Danube of Thought

The argument here is not about Rousseau's influence on you, though. It's about the influence of Rousseau and other Enlightenment thinkers on the Founding Fathers.

Of course it is not about his influence on me. My point was simply that the evidence that he influenced the Founding Fathers is no stronger than the evidence that he influenced me.

Those who have been dismissing the suggestion that Jefferson was influenced by Rousseau have been doing so in response to Ben F's post about the "Examination of Rousseau's Influence on Jefferson's Declaration of Independence." If you think, as I do, that such an influence was non-existent except in some of the terminology used by the two men, then we can agree to agree on that score.

Danube of Thought

What form do you think it should take?

Come on. You want that question answered here?

You go first...

sbw

Gosh, people, it is the ideas that mattered, not the people who spoke them.

... and Rousseau spoke some of the silliest ideas you have ever heard. He was, fortunately, sliced and diced by Voltaire well before the founding fathers had to deal with him.

... and even if he weren't, it is up to us to be smart enough to discard silly ideas like, for instance, civilization destroys morals so let's return to nature.

DVd drive

thank you very much, it is good
http://www.drives-storage.com.au
http://www.dreamboxok.com
http://www.dreamboxs.com

DVd drive

http://www.drives-storage.com.au
http://www.dreamboxok.com
http://www.dreamboxs.com

The comments to this entry are closed.

Wilson/Plame