Republican Fight Night!

With a nod to Michele Bachmann, what happens in Vegas won't stay in Vegas.

AHHHH!  Ms. Bachman is proving that it is impossible to discuss a Value Added Tax without the hapless audience wanting to kill either themselves or the speaker.

ROMNEYCARE:  Epic brawl between Santorum and Romney.  Romney is not offering a defense that ought to be helpful (if it is correct) - Massachusetts already had a tax meant to raise revenue to cover health costs for the uninsured.  RomneyCare re-directed this revenue stream (and some Federal funds) for its funding, without raising taxes.  That wouldn't work at the national level.

And here is the Fact Check on Romney's editing of his book:

HARDCOVER: "We can accomplish the same thing for everyone in the country, and it can be done without letting government take over health care."

To:

PAPERBACK: "And it was done without government taking over health care."

OK, NOW IT IS A FIGHT NIGHT: Perry and Romney get as nasty as I have ever seen in a debate format, and I know it will be a YouTube instant classic.  Here is some background on Romney's employment of illegal aliens.

In previous debates Perry has started quiclky and then run out of steam and lost focus.  Tonight, as a helpful timesaver for viewers at home, he seems to have gone directly to his unfocused modality.

TARP:  Santorum says Perry backed TARP; Perry denies.  This PolitiFact FactCheck scores that as half true:

This much is certain: On the morning of Oct. 1, 2008, the Republican Governors Association and Democratic Governors Association publicized a three-paragraph letter signed by their respective chairmen, Perry and Manchin, stating: "We strongly urge Congress to leave partisanship at the door and pass an economic recovery package ... If Congress does not act soon, the situation will grow appreciably worse."
   
The letter doesn’t explicitly endorse the plan then before the Senate. But no other plan was in play that day amid national fears of an economic collapse. And The Associated Press cast the governors' letter as part of a frantic national push for the $700 billion bailout of Wall Street sought by Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson and President George W. Bush.
   
Later the same day, Perry issued a contradictory-sounding second statement, partly headlined: "On Protecting Taxpayers."
   
"In a free market economy," Perry said, "government should not be in the business of using taxpayer dollars to bail out corporate America."
   
Asked to clarify at the time what Perry wanted the Senate to do, his spokeswoman, Allison Castle, demurred. "The senators have to make their own decisions," Castle said.

CUTTING DEFENSE:  Ron Paul wonders why we have US troops based in Korea.  A far better example of expensive and unnecessary foreign basing would be Germany; deterring Poland is less important than deterring North Korea.

So what is my point, that Ron Paul is a kook?

FINAL TALLY: I had to duck out for the last half hour, but on my scorecard Rick Santorum and Mitt Romney exceeded expectations.  Herman Cain got less time than I thought he would, and was OK.  Rick Perry was weak, Ron Paul was Ron Paul, and I won't survive another question to Michele Bachmann about the VAT.  Honestly, I would rather listen to an explanation of the paid-up insurance feature of my whole life policy.

AROUND THE WEB:  Prof. Wild Bill Jacobson thought Perry exceeded his low expectations.

Comments

[JM Hanes]

What's the consensus on Perry's performance? Did he manage to lay a glove on Romney?

[Sara (Pal2Pal)]

Mel: I came across this article from 2007 recently. Based on it, I think implying Romney to have an IQ of 100 or average is a bit off the mark.

[Mark Folkestad]

Thanks to Jane for blogging the debate, and the others for their comments. I had better things to do, namely negotiating rush hour traffic and an obstacle course that is supposed to be the new Central Corridor Light Rail between Minneapolis and St. Paul, all for the purpose of picking up Dr, J. for supper. It was well worth the effort. Dr. J. is a spendid chap. My record is perfect. I've met with three of the JOMO tribe and one spouse, and they are all exemplary human beings.

[Threadkiller]

Did somebody say McClintock? Here he is speaking to the Council on National Policy on September 30, 2011

http://www.tommcclintock.com/blog/governments-gone-wild

"I want to welcome this groundbreaking scientific expedition to the savage lands of the Left Coast. You are here in California to answer an important theoretical question and now you have your answer.

Yes, this is what Barack Obama’s second term would look like.

Study it. Fear it. And then go home and make sure that it never happens to the rest of the country. "

It gets better.

[daddy]

JMH,

Professor Jacobson, damning with faint praise, sez Perry was tonights winner because he was less lousy than in previous performances. Link.

I sure didn't see it, but I missed the first half.

[Jane]

He was better in the first half and actually handed Romney his hat at one point. Mitt acted like a dolt, unless you talk to Sara who thought he was splendid.

[Frau Nasevoll]

Thank you, Jane. What a workout.
I could not stay with the live debate after the cat fights between Romney and Perry. Sheesh, why don't they pile on Obama instead of each other? I think these continuous debates will make voters as sick of these candidates as they are of Obama.

[Danube of Thought]

We're all really grateful, Jane--thanks so very much.

Further to TK/McClintock, California just inaugurated its own cap-and-trade program today. No one from Moonbeam on down even pretends that it will make a scintilla of difference in worldwide emissions, but of course that's not the point. The point is that we are so noble and wonderful here in the Golden State that it is incumbent on us to set an example for the rest of the world.

[memomachine]

Hmmmm.

Paultards are really just along for the ride ... as long as it is off the deep end.

Seriously. I got into a debate with a Paultard and the gist of his point was:

1. The US Constitution does not have any power outside the borders of the USA.

2. The enumerated powers defined within the US Constitution prevents the federal government from deploying troops to foreign countries. e.g. outside the borders of the USA.

O.o

[Danube of Thought]

Just shoot the guy, memomachine. Sometimes that's the only way.

[Soylent Red]

The problem with Paul, as I see it, is that the 80% he gets right is overshadowed by the 20% he gets so very, very, drooling-idiot wrong.

Paulbots, likewise, seem to have a pretty good grasp on the fact that we need to return to operating under the Constitution. Unfortunately, very few of them have any idea what it really says or means. Of those, there is a strong isolationist bent that is just unrealistic post-1920.

I think Cain wins by default. My take was that everyone else looked silly. Cain's big challenge now is to hammer 9-9-9 into an actual workable policy, rather than a gimmick.

But, ABO.

[Sara (Pal2Pal)]

unless you talk to Sara who thought he was splendid.

Daddy: For the record, I said no such thing. On a scale of 1 to 10, 10 being splendid, I would give Perry a 1 and Romney a 3, which is a long way from splendid. If I was going to say anyone did splendid, it would be Gingrich.

[Ralph L]

The local cable news was interviewing members of the (invited) audience at O's speech in Jamestown today. First up, a young man named David AYERS. Thankfully, I had it on mute and missed his idiocy.

My sister works at the other end of the town, so she missed the fun of closed roads during morning rush hour.

[Threadkiller]

Watched the rerun of the debate. Huntsman, once again, was the clear loser.

If Cain's sole foriegn policy experience was knowing how to make an Italian crust, I would still pick him over a bunch of dunces that pretend he is creating a "state" sales tax.

I do not know if his plan will make things better, same, or worse. I do know that I will not vote for a tax lawyer that does not know the difference between state and federal taxes.

The people that challenged him, on that false premise, are no better than David Gregory. For shame.

[(Another) Barbara]

Everyone on the mainland is now safely in bed, I think, so I can say what I believe and possibly live until morning.

Perry's finished, or close enough that we can begin to mourn what could have been. Not only were his responses unfocused and rambling, in my opinion, he also came across as unlikable. That was a cheap shot, about Romney's having hired illegals. First, that was discussed endlessly in 2008, and are there any of us here who could swear that the contractor who trimmed our trees or installed our new raingutters didn't have any illegals on his crew? I think most Americans understand that few of us may be pure in that regard.

Newt, at usual, seemed like the true grown up, thoughtful, serious and informed, but we know that he won't be our nominee because he could not possibly be elected. Bachmann and Santorum neither lost nor gained, but they are clearly also-rans at this point.

I don't cheer Ron Paul's candidacy, but I'm glad he's in the debates (if only he'd get a better suit, and possibly better eyebrows). When he's not being a crazy uncle, he raises issues that merit attention. Once in a while his view sounds more sane than anything offered by other candidates.

Cain told a couple of whoppers, as regards his 9-9-9, if I understand the proposal. When he said that poor people won't be taxed more, that simply is not true in many cases (whether they should be taxed more is another question; I think everyone should contribute to federal income taxes, even if a very small amount). Continuing to rely on "that's apples and oranges," as an answer to questions about it won't do. He's a warm and congenial fellow -- definitely the most likable of the lot, but I'm doubtful he's a real contender for POTUS. (Fortunately for him, no one focused on his earlier blunder when interviewed by Wolf Blitzer yesterday. That's when he said, as president, he'd consider a release of all the Gitmo prisoners in exchange for one kidnapped American soldier, if that hypothetical situation ever should emerge.)

I thought Romney did extremely well, except for cringing when he slipped and said he fired his yard contractor who used illegals because "I was running for office." He might have at least pretended there was a principle involved. Other than that, though, I thought he looked like the only one up there I could imagine beating Obama, all things considered. I want to win far more than I want to be absolutely pure in my conservatism. Every one of them has fallen from the path at one time or another. I'm willing to live with Romney's shortcomings (as I would be willing to live with those of any other who wins our nomination).

Aim your guns low, cause I'll be still in bed when the rest of you are up and frisky.

[Threadkiller]

AB, the candidates who grilled Cain should know it is apples to oranges. The audience will struggle with that fundamental as long as their candidate makes the false charge.

Cain needs pizza pie charts for each state, showing state taxes as a constant, and the new 9 tax that replaces the federal tax.

[(Another) Barbara]

The audience will struggle with that fundamental as long as their candidate makes the false charge.

I take your point TK, but I contend that Cain did a lousy job of explaining 999's strengths (and in defending it against critics). I believe I'm as intelligent as an average voter, but had I not read a fair amount about the proposal I would have been entirely lost. Cain seemed somewhat lost too, and that suggested to me that he didn't understand its implications entirely either. I'm still on the fence as to whether I support or oppose it, but nothing he said today was adequate to move me further to his side.

But never mind that, what are you doing still up?

[Who could, or would, stop her?]

So, who doesn't think Hillary will be the next Prez? And Bill running for Intergalactic Overlord?
========

[Is that a hot potato or a grenade, Young Slick Fella?]

Gad, I can't escape 'The Holdren'. L!ink U!nder N!ame even has him.

Look, for 40 years these doomsaying Malthusians have been the coming thing; one hardly blames Romney for hiring the best available local talent, read Harvard Moron. However, that should all be laid to rest, now, and Mitt should repudiate Holdren in spades, and now.
==============

[Blue]

It's a 'cheap shot' to task Mitt about the status of workers who maintain his landscaping? Really? If you don't know what's going on at home, we should trust you with the entire country?

How hard is it to insist that a contractor certify that he hires no illegals? How hard is it to know that the guy working on your property, who can't speak more than a few words of English, might be... ???

[Ralph L]

How hard is it to insist that a contractor certify that he hires no illegals?
How many Americans actually do this?

[Nice work if you can get it.]

Yes, we must have a leader capable of throwing a hammerlock on the insidious snake of sustainability, while perusing the fine print of his contract with the gardener. What a spectacle! I mean, where are my spectacles?
=========

[Jane]

AB,

You know, your ability to be utterly rational really pisses me off. You take out all the hopes and wants and always lay it on the line. Although I generally don't like it, your analysis is always invaluable. Reality often sucks.

[Misdemeanor Disinformation. Highly criminal.]

Where's the real world in which Romney denounces Holdren and all that sad sorrowful Malthusian claptrap.
=================

[narciso]

I don't think he knows it's a problem, Kim, Mike 'Iceberg' Murphy, won't tell him, so what we have here is 'Unfrozen Rockefeller
Republican', maybe a Scranton, when we need
someone who will challenge the liberal world
view, Newt was good, up until Mitt pointed out that he has sinned as well, on the health
care front. I didn't think Perry did so bad, overall. Cain still couldn't salvage that
question on AQ.

[Janet]

I think these continuous debates will make voters as sick of these candidates as they are of Obama.

Yeah Frau. I think Sue pointed out the same thing. The debate format is harder on Republican candidates cause they believe different things....like us here at JOM. The Dems are ALL pro-abort, lots of taxes, big Big BIG government, elites taking care of victims & promising goodies,... They just have to pick their American Idol front man or woman. It never gets very contentious with them because there's not a dime's worth of difference between them.

[Melinda Romanoff]

Thanks for that piece Sara. It doesn't dissuade me that he's closer to average than 200, but it does have me looking for more evidence.

[Threadkiller]

AB, I was up doing some research on the 999 plan. If the attacks were on the function of the plan, Cain may have answered with something that helps everyone understand what his proposal is.

The main charge against him is the faux "state tax being raised" issue. If I were Cain I would point ou why Bachmann is a politician now; it is because she was a dim tax attorney.

Santorum was the only one on point with seniors potentially getting screwed. Cain responded that the "empowerment zone" keeps them safe. Santorum nods his head in approval. Wtf is an empowerment zone? As near as I can tell it is an unfair "fair tax". What was Santorum approving of?!?

Cain can ride on the 999 idea, without better explanations, as long as dummies ask dumb questions.

Cain said a loaf of bread has 6 taxes on it right now. His plan would place only one tax on it. Sara, a few days ago, mentioned adding a new fed tax to what we pay in fed taxes at the gas pump, and the hardship that would cause. Could it be Cain plans on replacing this tax?

We don't know because the dipshit candidates are worried about New Hampshire's votes, so they push the false idea that a "tax free state" is getting It's first tax.

If Cain is lowering the gas tax in New Hampshire(and everywhere else), he better say so quickly.

If his competitors have something better than straw taxmen, they better say so quickly.

[Barbara]

Jane,

Thank you for your play-by-play of the debate. As always, you were excellent. I missed the food fight last night, but actually I'd rather read your commentary than watch the debates.

[Army of Davids]

Cain was solid

Gingrich the winner IMO.

Perry is the loser.

Romney...Meh.