Powered by TypePad

« Team Obama - More Trouble With Their Johnson | Main | What If Davey Crockett Skipped The Alamo? »

October 26, 2011

Comments

narciso

Is there medication, that cures this level of delusion, a salve or ointment perhaps:

http://www.thedemocraticstrategist.org/strategist/2011/10/wake_up_commentators_the_most.php

Clarice

Well, DoT,I dislike Edwards as much as anyone, but I think the criminal case against him is bunk. The donor paid gift taxes on the money and it never went into the campaign chest. What's the crime?

Looks to me like another prosecutor aiming for the bright lights.

Threadkiller

In an effort to Jane that new thread I offer this.

DoT, here is the answer about the timelyness of Donofrio's journey to SCOTUS. Of note is that original complaint was not on the specifics of eligibility. It was on a violation of a State Statute.

" . I would be lying if I said I could answer that with certainty. The sabotage at Justia may have contributed to my brief not mentioning Minor. I just don't know three years later what I looked at on the weekend before the election. My state level case was based upon state statutes... in that the SOS office in New Jersey admitted to me that they did not do anything to verify whether either candidate was eligible. According to a statute in NJ, the SOS is required to establish whether the names on the ballots are allowed to be on the ballots according to law. Since the SOS office admitted no such verification had taken place, I filed a complaint in lieu of prerogative writs (similar to a writ of mandamus) in order to compel the SOS to do her job and to verify the legality of the names on the ballots. Essentially, the state level case was not designed to get a ruling on whether either candidate was eligible, it was a case to compel the SOS to investigate that issue and follow the statute. I was hoping she would be forced to petition SCOTUS to make a determination. Whether they were or were not eligible was not the core issue. The core issue was that the State officer failed to make that determination which was required according to law. I pointed out in my briefs that McCain was born in Panama and that Obama was a dual citizen at birth, but I was not booked up on case law at the time.

The NJ App Division accepted emergency status for the filing the week before the election but didn't rule until late Thursday (and a more BS ruling has never been seen -more on that some other time)... On Friday I appealed to the NJ Supreme Court who denied review within hours of the case being filed. That weekend I made a last minute decision to go to SCOTUS. I only had a very short time to research on the web (the County law library near me iss closed on weekends). I knew it was very important to file the case before the election, so that meant getting to DC and getting it filed y 4:30 PM that Monday. Furthermore, I was asking SCOTUS for an emergency stay of the election, not a full review on the merits. Under the circumstances, I thought it was enough to state the main issue, that McCain was not eligible since he was born in Panama, and that Obama was not eligible since he was a dual citizen at birth. I did NOT have the knowledge and command of the intricacies of the various SCOTUS cases like Minor at that time. Had SCOTUS granted the stay, the issue would have required more intense briefing. But, at the time I first filed the stay application, the day before the '08 election, I was NOT aware of Minor. Whether the Justia sabotage contributed, I cannot say because I do not recall what I looked at on my computer screen.

So I cannot blame Justia for my not knowing Minor at the time.

I was naive enough to believe that the SCOTUS would have to take the case since it seemed obvious to me on an instinctual level that neither candidate was eligible. Furthermore, Roger Calero was in slot C on the NJ ballots and he clearly was not eligible having been born in Nicaragua to alien parents, so the ballots in NJ were in fact defective and should have been destroyed and a stay should have been put in place... even if it was just to remove Calero. I honestly thought there was a good chance that New Jersey would be forced to vote at a later date, or that the election would be postponed. Ha! Naive? You bet. What an education it's been. Very good question, Bob. - Leo]"

Benjamin Franklin

Just like the bought cops and hired goons sent to disrupt peaceful assembly of Jimmy Hoffa's Teamsters, the Status Quo reacts when it's threatened.

Remember the corruption in the Teamster's in subsequent years?
Organized crime was brought in because that's the only protection afforded these truck drivers from the mercenary swine who held the truncheon.

http://consortiumnews.com/2011/10/27/why-ows-has-already-prevailed/


Until recent events proved otherwise, the hyper-commercialized surface of the corporate state gave the appearance of being too diffuse — too devoid of a center to pose a threat of totalitarian excess.

Accordingly, as of late, due to the violent response to OWS protesters by local police departments in Oakland, Atlanta, Chicago, and in other U.S. cities, the repressive nature of the faux republic is beginning to be revealed.

Behind the bland face of the political establishment (purchased by the bloated profits of the plundering class) are riot cops, outfitted and armed with the accoutrements of oppression, who are ready and willing to enforce the dictates of the elitist beneficiaries of the degraded status quo.

Ranger

The assault was also levied against our property in the camp, and the cops tried their best to completely destroy everything we had there. Almost every tent has been destroyed, many slashed with boxcutters, structures smashed, basically this was not an eviction, they came in to destroy everything we had.

Sounds like they learned all the tricks from the San Fran PD and how they deal with homeless people. But the mayor there supports gay marrage, so who cares what he does to the homeless.

Threadkiller

To get Jane...

Clarice

This is the worst thread in JOM history and I cannot wait for it to end.

Rick Ballard

"they came in to destroy everything we had"

Let me guess - anarchist tryouts?

centralcal

Amen, Clarice.

Benjamin Franklin

Uh huh. Political warfare....what a delusional concept.

BR

Justia company profile. LUN.

Approximately 51-200 employees. As of now, I don't think they're claiming to have been hacked. Therefore, someone within did it. Or gave access willingly.

The tampering with court documents appear over some months in 2008 according to the Waybackmachine screen shots. Waybackmachine takes screen shots at different times of different pages. But the tampering could all have been done in one afternoon in or before April 2008.

TK, can you tell from the alterations, what specifically is so dangerous to Obama in Minor v. Happersett? Is it both parents having to be US citizens?

pagar

http://bigjournalism.com/mvadum/2010/04/07/tracking-acorns-rebranding-process-a-handy-updated-guide/

ACORN hasn't gone anywhere, they've just changed their name.

Google reports 942,000 attempts to con the public into believing ACORN is no longer up to their old tricks.

Captain Hate

If governing more conservatively would have helped Bush 41, why did the electorate turn to the more liberal candidate?

Because Slick is a much better campaigner. Plus if there's a choice between a fake lib and a real lib, why not go with the one that isn't lying so much (I can't believe I just compared Clenis positively to anybody on that standard).

Porchlight

Well, I think we had some troll infestations that were worse than this. I mean, more egregious troll infestations.

DebinNC

Are there any "violent response" to OWSers cities that don't have Dem mayors?

daddy

Can I sue TM for Carpal Tunnel?

Off to class, but this video of Richard Epstein being interviewed by some NPR goofball is wonderful. Bye.

Ignatz

--But it's really the "electability" crowd that has been making the strong claims that a moderate is more electable, which is what prompted Iggy, Porch, and me to counterclaim.--

Bingo.

--As to your last question, Bush 41 alienated the base by reneging on his "Read my lips" pledge, and Clinton ran as a moderate. The voters chose a moderate who they didn't know was a liar over a moderate who had lied to them.--

See above.

Benjamin Franklin

They claim to have public interest as their motive for attacking protestors. What they really want is a Chicago 1968 moment wherein
the peaceful protestors finally had seen, or experienced enough and returned 'like-for-like' to the delight of the Status Quo and the
Me-dia.

ljm

My son worked for the Salt Lake Olympic Committee representing Gateway Computers who provided the computer system for the 2002 Olympics. He was there when Romney came on board.

Very late one evening, alone in the building, my son was working on the computer system when Mr. Romney unexpectedly dropped in. Romney didn't need an introduction and after a cordial greeting proceeded to question my son on his perception about what was working and what wasn't with the system. My son was impressed with Romney's attention to his concerns and to Romney's intuitive understanding.

Early the next morning when my son returned to work he met Mitt Romney coming out of his bosses office. Mitt had taken my sons suggestions, arranged a meeting with his boss and set the wheels in motion that would help turn the 2002 Olympics around.

My son is a liberal Democrat who vigorously supported Obama in 2008. He will be voting for Mitt Romney if he gets the GOP nomination in 2012.

Rick Ballard

Mel,

I'd bet on a GDP revision to 2-2.2. The current dollar quarterly GDP increase was $46.5 billion. XOM's top line increased by $30.3 billion.

I suspect linkage of some sort.

MayBee

One of the more obscure points that the MFM keeps out of view is how the donks are such purveyors of trash culture. For all their words of commitment to the arts, ultimately Slick opts for Lady Gag-Gag to provide entertainment at his birthday look-at-me fest. And Obama's musical tastes range from pedestrian to horrible.

Oh, too true.
It is kind of funny that the Obamas are all "oh, no Kardashians!", but they bring their girls to Beyonce concerts to watch her Gaddafi-loving bootie shake.

In a way they were very smart, though. Michelle and Barry didn't badmouth a show on a network that has given them free airtime.

Benjamin Franklin

Mayor and Chief Pig Daley (D) in 1968.

How is is you people insist on sectoring Status Quo into Democrat and Republican? Same Smell..no difference. Labels are useless. Forget what they say. Watch what they do.

Danube of Thought

the criminal case against him is bunk

Not much doubt about it. But if we must have injustice in this country from time to time--and it appears we must--I'll celebrate its happening to Edwards just as the left celebrated over Scooter. Not proud of it; just can't help it.

Melinda Romanoff

Yes, but one of those is real data. And privately held until today.

Dollar bots are busy today, included in there is a Soros "shove", I would wager.

ljm

My son worked for the Salt Lake Olympic Committee representing Gateway Computers who provided the computer system for the 2002 Olympics. He was there when Romney came on board.

Very late one evening - alone in the building - my son was working on the computer system when Mr. Romney unexpectedly dropped in. Romney didn't need an introduction and after a cordial greeting proceeded to question my son on his perception about what was working and what wasn't with the system. My son was impressed with Romney's attention to his concerns and to Romney's intuitive understanding.

Early the next morning when my son returned to work he met Mitt Romney coming out of his bosses office. Mitt had taken my sons suggestions, arranged a meeting with his boss and set the wheels in motion that would help turn the 2002 Olympics around.

My son is a liberal Democrat who vigorously supported Obama in 2008. He will be voting for Mitt Romney if he gets the GOP nomination in 2012.

Captain Hate

Is Dana having an acid flashback to 1968 because of the age of this thread?

Benjamin Franklin

CH;

These threads don't age. They mellow.

Danube of Thought

TK, the saddest part of his account is that he seems to think that mentioning Minor would have made a difference--it wouldn't.

Perhaps his experience might prompt him to consider the question I have posed here: does he really think that the judiciary is going to deprive 150 million or so Americans of the right to vote for a particular American citizen on the basis of a disputed meaning of a term under English common law? One would hope that at some point he might draw some conclusions from the treatment afforded these various challenges.

BB Key

DoT & C, I suggest the Raleigh News & Observer coverage of the Edward's hearing by Anne Blythe . The Judge hearing the motions to dismiss was recently appointed by the JEF . sorry I cannot provide the link

Danube of Thought

P.S.--And as a lawyer perhaps he might decide that henceforth he will use the hard-bound official Supreme Court reports like everybody else.

Ranger

being interviewed by some NPR goofball

Actually, that guy is very free market oriented. He is clearly playing "devils advocate" in his questioning.

I've always wondered how that key keeps his job with the News Hour... by the time I stopped watching, he was the only part of the show I could watch without cringing.

Clarice

Later.

centralcal

Got it (twice), ljm. Sorry you only have one son to switch votes.

MayBee

I did hear the Edwards filed false reports with the FEC, and that would be the crime. I'll be shocked if he does jail time, and I'm not certain paying for him to live in prison would be a good use of taxpayer dollars.

Who knows? Well, I know one thing. I know which of the two Americas he's living in.

Benjamin Franklin

Well, what would you expect a Trotskyite to say?

"Make no mistake about it: The actions of the police department in Oakland last night were a military assault on a legitimate political demonstration. That it was a milder military assault than it could have been, which is to say it wasn't a massacre, is very much beside the point. There was no possible provocation that warranted this display of force. (Graffiti? Litter? Rodents? Is the Oakland PD now a SWAT team for the city's health department?) If you are a police department in this country in 2011, this is something you do because you have the power and the technology and the license from society to do it. This is a problem that has been brewing for a long time. It predates the Occupy movement for more than a decade. It even predates the "war on terror," although that has acted as what the arson squad would call an "accelerant" to the essential dynamic."

Read more: http://www.esquire.com/blogs/politics/occupy-oakland-6530274#ixzz1c06LldPA

MayBee

This is from the Corner:


... When pressed by a reporter about why students would want to pay back the loan if they will be forgiven anyway, Secretary Duncan simply said that “people want to do the right thing.”

Oh, heaven help us.
People will want to do the right thing right up to the point they realize they are hurting their own families for no reason. Then it becomes the wrong thing.

Get Duncan out of there.

Captain Hate

Forcing Silky to listen to Rielle's vapid new age garbage would be punishment enough. And take away his shampoo.

Appalled

Ben (or Ben's Link) tells us:

due to the violent response to OWS protesters by local police departments in Oakland, Atlanta, Chicago, and in other U.S. cities, the repressive nature of the faux republic is beginning to be revealed.

While I realize that this is just the usual radical left rhetoric, I do resent the guilt by association applied to Atlanta's police, and, frankly, the the folks of Occupy Atlanta. Both sides did the arrest non-violently. There was nothing like the Oakland riots here.

Danube of Thought

From Insty:

Remember when the Tea Party was in Arizona and that one guy lawfully carried an AR-15 in a sling on his shoulder? Remember how it made the news and how the beltway crowd was really freaking the Hell out? Remember how MSNBC used selective editing to make it look like it was a disheveled white guy when it was really done by a clean cut black guy? And the media went into OMG!!!111 mode?

Funny story. Turns out, there’s a bunch of guys at Occupy Phoenix wearing camo, tactical gear and carrying around AR-15s and I haven’t heard a peep about it in the press.

Ranger

(Graffiti? Litter? Rodents? Is the Oakland PD now a SWAT team for the city's health department?)

Hey, why not. In Obama's America, the Department of Education has its own SWAT Team, so why not the Oakland health department?

MayBee

Maybe someone told the police that OWS was using Indian rosewood.

Captain Hate

LOL Maybee. OMG they're playing Gibson guitarzzzz!!!11eleventy!

Benjamin Franklin


" I do resent the guilt by association applied to Atlanta's police, and, frankly, the the folks of Occupy Atlanta. Both sides did the arrest non-violently. There was nothing like the Oakland riots here."

Your outrage is duly noted.


http://digbysblog.blogspot.com/
History lesson

by digby

I was looking around the internets this morning at the inevitable rightwing backlash against the soldier who was injured in the Occupy Oakland crackdown. (You all knew they wouldn't be able to tolerate this, didn't you?) Anyway, lots of loathing all around. (You can google the name Shamal Thomas if you're interested.) Here's a fairly typical comment:

Shamal Thomas is an a-hole for trying to promote a personal agenda WHILE HIDING BEHIND HIS SERVICE TO HIS COUNTRY. He’s just another malcontent paraded by the leftists who want to destroy our country and traditions, and want what doesn’t belong to them. HE was the obnoxious bully at the scene, NOT the police. Now he’s not only been promoted to “General”, but he’s a Wall St. expert, as well. I agree with the blogger who said he believes there’s a tasing in this man’s near future. If only……..There are marchers in the streets advocating the overthrow of our country, and this sap joins them? ALL THE A-HOLE AMERICA HATERS NOW HAIL THIS CLOWN AS A HERO. THAT’S ALL YOU NEED TO KNOW.

MayBee

I googled Shamal Thomas and got pretty much nothing. Who is he?

Benjamin Franklin

Chart of the Day

ttp://motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2011/10/chart-day-government-and-rich

Benjamin Franklin

http://motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2011/10/chart-day-government-and-rich

.

DebinNC

11Alive News/Atlanta on the benign local OWSers:

"Organizers of Occupy Atlanta are planning their next move and say they have a new plan in place, which includes antagonizing Mayor Kasim Reed, retaking the park, and becoming a moving target. Occupy Atlanta plans to show up at public events that Reed will be at, to publicly decry his treatment of the movement. Members also say they they will retake Woodruff Park, despite threat of arrest. And they've said they will hold impromptu occupations throughout the city to make it harder for authorities to stop them."

I hope they go for it. The huge number of Atlanta's black upper and middle class folks will be watching with interest. They may even regret choosing Kasim as the concensus "black" candidate in the Dem primary so as not to split the black vote, preventing a gifted and accomplished Dem woman, whose only flaw was being white, from becoming mayor.

MayBee

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZr9c1zYaOE

Via Insty.
The OWS protester is complaining that Jobs manufactured Apple goods in China.
Schiff tells him he did that for a variety of reasons, one being that Americans want to pay less for goods.
The protester says that isn't true. They are willing to pay more for American made goods.
But it seems they are not, in fact, willing to actually pay more for their American college educations.

Benjamin Franklin

Shamar Thomas.

narciso

He wore out his welcome, long ago, from this
bit;


http://thisainthell.us/blog/?p=27117

Benjamin Franklin

"He wore out his welcome,.."

More fresh Hell.

Cecil Turner

I don't get it. I guess I can see how I'm supposed to be excited over the OWS guys, or maybe the crackdown, but the guys commenting on it (the "backlash")? Don't think so.

Sorry, digby, not buying any. All you lefties, feel free to fight amongst yourselves. I've got lots of popcorn.

Benjamin Franklin

It's an old strategy, (provoking the demonstrators until they show violence) but since human nature has not changed, it probably will get nasty.


http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2011/10/police-crackdown-effort-at-occupyoakland-raises-bigger-questions-about-movement-evolution.html


So OWS appears to have matured quickly from a disruptive, novel phenomenon to what at least some cities see as a cancer-like challenge to their authority. So it should not be surprising that the ongoing power struggle sometimes escalates into open hostility.

The real danger to OWS will come when there is an eruption that can clearly be pinned on the movement rather than the police, particularly if bystanders are hurt or private property is damaged in a serious way (say a fire breaks out or windows get smashed). That will play into well established stereotypes and be far too easy for media outlets to amplify. I’m sure the OWS leadership is well aware of this danger but awareness may not be sufficient to prevent it from happening.

MayBee

I don't get it. Is this another absolute moral authority thing?

Jane

ljm,

That is a heartening story, thanks for posting it.

Maybee, I can see this is a road for increases in tuition all over the country, because why not? You can borrow any amount you want, no strings attached. Soon college will be $1.6 trillion a year. Think of all the raises for the teachers!

I am now going to guarantee a new thread: Threadkiller, I have not been paying attention to your week long conversation. Can you tell me in 10 words or yes what "justia" is?

Danube of Thought

Jobs hired Chinese workers because American workers are greedy.

GMAX

Liberals acting badly, Democrat officeholders ordeing laws to be followed and this is a foreshadowing of what exactly?

Eugene McCarthy or Walter Mondale would be my educated guess here.

Benjamin Franklin


" Is this another absolute moral authority thing?"

The only 'absolutes' are those concocted in the mind limited to black and white impressions. No 'grey' there.

narciso

I'm kind of surprised how selfindulgent and counterproductive this movement has been, it's
only the MFN serving as 'air cover' that saves them from total ridicule. It's as if they haven't learned any lesson since 1969.

centralcal

Jane: Threadkiller tried really hard around midnight to get you a new thread and I can assure you it was more than 10 words, but not quite 10 paragraphs! lol

MayBee

DoT- the protester is wrong in another way. He thinks no reporters dared to confront Jobs about why he used overseas labor. But of course Jobs was quite clear about why he did that, and he even tried to explain it to the President of the United States.

narciso

Well maybe this will serve as the catalyst for another thread;

http://blog.american.com/2011/10/for-liberals-income-inequality-is-the-new-global-warming/

MayBee

Jane- that's what's crazy about it. That's what is so heartbreaking about idiot Duncan- who is now in charge of being the banker for all of these loans- acting as if people will just do the "right" thing.

Does he really think Janet and I have endless sums of money to pay for college, like the "government" does?

Jane

10 words or LESS - what is the matter with my brain?

narciso

He comes from the 4th worst performing school system in the nation, what could possibly go wrong?

Jane

This is simply breathtaking. Plus Napolitano testifies that she never bothered to contact Holder after 2 of her agents were killed with guns from F&F.

Oh to have a media that cared...

narciso

Apparently some things never change;


http://pjmedia.com/tatler/2011/10/27/wapo-launches-second-part-of-its-destroy-marco-rubio-mission/

centralcal

765 comments and still no new thread...

Benjamin Franklin

Wo ist der moralische Entrüstung?

http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2011/10/who-is-getting-richer-who-is-not/

MayBee

I love Digby getting all outraged that people don't respect Shamal Thomas when *she* doesn't even get his name right.

But he's very important to her.

Whatever. I just hope no more people get hurt and these protests don't cost the cities too much precious money.

narciso

I'm sure it's in the oven, cc, you don't want to open it up, before it's ready.

Benjamin Franklin

Via HotAir

"In a brief interview Thursday, Rubio said his accounts of the family’s migration has been based on family lore. “I’m going off the oral history of my family,” he said. “All of these documents and passports are not things that I carried around with me.”…

His office tried to clarify the facts in its statement Thursday. After their 1956 arrival, the couple visited Cuba after Castro’s takeover. In 1961, Oriales Rubio took her two children back to Cuba “with the intention of remaining permanently.” Mario remained in Florida “wrapping up the family’s matters.” But within weeks of arriving there, “it because clear that Cuba was headed full speed towards Communism and they decided to return to the U.S,” the statement said.

Rubio’s staff allowed The Post to examine copies of his parents’ passports. They showed that between the couple’s admission for permanent residence and Castro’s victory on January 1, 1959, his father spent five days in Cuba and his mother spent no more than 2 months and 3 days there. The passports show that Rubio’s mother made at least four short trips to the island after Castro’s victory, including a month long stay in February and March 1961."

narciso

This piece surfaced in yesterday's fishwrap,
Politico, St. Petersburg Times and the Herald, what could go wrong;

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1011/66878.html

narciso

What people don't realize is the Down Under version of 'Hope and Change' was as much a
snowjob to many, as the current one. Some of our leading commentators on Spanish Radio and exile activists were quite sympathetic to Fidel, at the outset. Perez Roura, the late Agustin Tamargo Huber Matos, Orlando Bosch,. Not to mention, generally apolitical people like the Rubios.

maryrose

Yes I am happy to bring my ax to Columbus along with Capt. H. I'll try not to go all Carrie Nation on those clueless people with misguided ideas and wrong-headed moves.Ultimate goal in Ohio-Removal of Obama and Sherrod Brown in that order.
Our Governor Kasich was on Hannity last night and explained Issue 2 completely. If these communities are dumb enough to vote against it they won't be able to afford more police, fire or teachers. State money given to them has decreased.

Captain Hate

What do the dipshits at Politico care about the details of Rubio's parents' immigration? They were quite happy for Slick, Reno and Stedman to send Elian Gonzalez back to Fidel's hellhole at gunpoint after his mother died getting here.

centralcal

I read that piece yesterday, narciso. Man, they sure must fear Rubio. It is a nothing burger why or when his parents came here. Fact is they would never go back to Cuba to live, for obvious reasons.

Benjamin Franklin

"Our Governor Kasich was on Hannity last night and explained Issue 2 completely"

What were his disapproval numbers again?

narciso

Don't forget Greg Craig, the one who negotiated the 'rendition' with the Cuban Government,

MayBee

Rubio is being attacked for three reasons that I can think of. Please feel free to add on:

1. The White House is desperately afraid he will be chosen as a VP candidate

2. The left can't stand the idea that Hispanics don't all think with one brain, and do not want to highlight a Hispanic man that does not have the agenda Obama has for Hispanics- the Dream Act and free illegal immigration for all.

3. To further the idea that Castro was/is not so bad.

rse

maybee-it really is the Cloward Piven strategy and Arne knows that. Remember Ayers may have wanted Darling-Hammond but Arne was fine too.

You think of college as academic or vocational. These guys think in terms of a common leverage point to reach the masses and shape desired mindsets. It takes tyranny to a level we never thought we would see in the US. I joke about the withdrawn books but they were withdrawn because they provide explicit details of schemes. I buy them as a good lawyer would urge to defend what I am asserting with indisputable documentation. I am always shocked by what has been put into print. I finished something this morning that made me feel betrayed and in need of a shower.

Be careful in the meantime while I finish pulling this together.

MayBee

rse- I thought of you when I was watching Ken Burn's "Prohibition" the other night.

They covered the women who got anti-alcohol education into the nation's school curriculum in the late 1800's. Even though it was full of lies (one drop can kill you!), it served it's purpose.

Porchlight

I sympathize with the temperance movement somewhat, even though I know it was a seedbed of Progressivism. Imagine being a poor woman whose husband went straight from the factory to the tavern and spent all the family earnings there. It would pretty well suck and there'd be almost no recourse.

ljm

centralcal,

I have 4 sons of voting age. Two voted for Obama last time. None of them are happy with the direction the country is headed. Unless Rick Perry gets the GOP nod, I'm fairly confident they will all be voting Republican in 2012.

MayBee

Yeah, Porch, there were people with good reason for wanting it.*
I was just really surprised to see an example of using the school children to push an agenda (and feeding them lies!) so early in our history.
I guess there's nothing new under the sun.

(*one thing I loved about the show is it pointed out that most people who supported temperance supported it because it would make *other people* behave. They were all so shocked when it turned out to apply to them, too! That's the story of progressivism right there)

Captain Hate

I sympathize with the temperance movement somewhat, even though I know it was a seedbed of Progressivism.

Invariably they take it a step too far. The MADD people started with good intentions and large approval levels until they got the DUI levels reduced to absurd levels and keep lobbying to lower it further. Now they seem like a gaggle of pests that lose what little sense they have at the first mention of demon alcohol.

centralcal

ljm: 4 sons, how wonderful! However, I am a bit confused with their unhappiness in where the country is headed under Obama - they will only vote for Romney, none of the other candidates?

That is interesting. They don't seem to be all that unhappy, if he alone is their only alternate choice.

JM Hanes

Ignatz:

"I don't see how anyone can look at that record and NOT see that, at least in the last 40 years, running as a conservative gives one "a better chance at the polls" to say nothing of the success of conservative governance."

I just don't think the picture is as clear as you do, or as simple. Reagan and Bush 43 certainly demonstrate that conservatives can get elected, but one governed as a conservative, one as a moderate, and both won a second term. Beyond that, I think you're just asserting that the others lost because they were moderates, when I don't see any particular evidence that a conservative would have done any better:

Ford was the accidental replacement for a scandal plagued Agnew, and a legacy Nixon VP who pardoned the criminal boss who would have been impeached had he not resigned in disgrace. Ford's short stint as a governing moderate barely registered as an issue.

I don't think you can call Bush 43 anything more than a mixed bag. He conspicuously shut his moderate trap when Reagan signed him up, but picture Romney in that spot. Would you mistake him for a genuine conservative when he emerged on his own? Ironically, Bush 43 actually tried to run as a conservative in 1992 (Pats Buchanan & Robertson were his convention stars) and it was moderates who deserted him in droves for Clinton.

Dole ran against a popular, next generation, centrist incumbent. The good times were rolling, consumers were consuming like mad, and there just weren't any compelling conservative issues to run on.

Would Fred Thompson have won in 2000? Who knows? As you noted yourself, McCain started behind the GWB 8 ball. He was incoherent on policy, and we'll never know if the conservative Palin could have pushed him over the top, because he simply abandoned his campaign, and the bully pulpit, for a thumb sucking role as a Senator when the economy collapsed.

In fact, looking at the historical record, I think the most obvious take away is that Americans like outsider candidates for President. Bush 43 is the only Vice President who managed to get elected on his own. Dole and McCain made their names and careers in the Senate, while Obama spent so little time serving in DC, that he could run against it.

MayBee

CH- oh it's true. MADD is becoming a neo prohibitionist movement.

There is some real absurdity going on at college campuses, too.
In Michigan, the police will wander college campuses and give breathalyzers to anyone suspected of drinking. I don't mean students driving- I mean students who are doing things like hanging out in large groups laughing, or carrying their shoes home (girls w/heels) at night.

If the breathalyzer shows they've been drinking and they are under 21, they get an MIP. They have to have monthly drug tests. They will be banned from teaching in Michigan or working as a public safety office.

All because- gasp!- a non driving 20 year old had alcohol. It is absurd.

Captain Hate

There is some real absurdity going on at college campuses, too.

Many college campuses are little Stalinist enclaves where the denizens give up a significant amount of rights of the accused. Completely innocent people can get badly jammed up if they aren't careful. I'd probably have FIRE on speed dial if I were attending one today.

Threadkiller

Jane, will conjunctions and interjections count as words?

Ignatz

--I just don't think the picture is as clear as you do, or as simple.--

Okey doke, JM.
This ground is well plowed.
You plant your seed, I'll plant mine.
Let's just agree that even if we only sprout a pansy it'll be better than the noxious weed growing at 1600 Pennsylvania Ave now. :)

ljm

centralcal,

I believe I said that unless Rick Perry is the nom they will be voting Republican. Eliminating Bachmann, Santorum, Huntsman, Johnson, or Paul as having a chance, that leaves Cain and Gingrich as possibilities.

Clarice

MaBee, my recollection is that Edwards and his donor pretty well blew the FEC claim--which was the raison d'etre for this prosecution-- out of the water.

centralcal

Sorry, ljm, was perhaps too keyed in to your first heartwarming story with 1 son and Romney.

What is their greatest concern regarding Perry, but not Cain or Gingrich or Rommey?

Ranger

Clarice,

I was under the impression that the charge was using campaign donations for personal exspenses (paying to shack up his girlfriend).

Jack is Back!

Clarice,

Regarding the this thread, here is hope. Normally, when I post a comment at the end of a long thread it is usually the last one and no one ends up reading it.

There are some who are part of the 99% and then there are the hobos, bums, vagrants, homeless and ex-cons

I wonder if any of the meals meet the Bloomie trans-fat requirements?

I thank God that none of these ignorant brats are one of mine.

DebinNC

that leaves Cain and Gingrich as possibilities

I take it you accidentally left off, Romney, ljm? If you're willing, I'd really like to know why Perry's a definite "no" and whether you think many Utahans feel the same.

ljm

centralcal,

First of all he can't win against Obama. He is a terrible debater and frankly an unremarkable politician. I live in Austin. I love Texas but what's good for Texas isn't necessarily what is good for America and Perry doesn't seem to understand that.

We have big problems in Texas. Property taxes are through the roof. The 2nd highest in the country. Texas is running a huge deficit. My husband and I run a small manufacturing business here. Trying to find employees that are educated, healthy and sober (frankly) is a struggle which is why illegals are basically welcomed with open arms.

DebinNC

Hope Sue and Porch read that and chime in, because that's not the Texas we've been hearing about in the run-up to Perry getting in the race.

The comments to this entry are closed.

Wilson/Plame