Sunday Morning Open Thread

Here we are.

Comments

[Rocco]

There's a difference between old school mace (CN) and new school pepper spray (OC). Before our facility switched to the newer pepper spray we were trained with CN. It's an irritant as opposed to pepper spray (OC) which is an inflammatory. When you spray CN you aim at the chin as the fumes rise up into the eyes. Pepper spray however is supposed to be sprayed directly into the eyes to be effective. And yes, once a year during training in Chemical weapons we were sprayed directly into the face with a full blast of pepper spray. We were told it was for litigation purposes should we ever be sued that we would know what the effects were. I used to ask them if they were also going to shoot us during firearms training?

[Jack is Back!]

Grossman to Gaffney in the End Zone with 14 seconds to go;

Skins 14 - Boys 14

"Hail to the Redskins,
Hail Victory
Braves on the Warpath
Fight for Old DC"

[Porchlight]

Yea! One disruptor diva gone for the day.

Give me a break. DoT is not a "disruptor diva."

[Jack is Back!]

My bad. Skins 14 and Boys 10.

[Ignatz]

--Yea! One disruptor diva gone for the day.--

Are there other "disruptor divas" and if so who are they?
Initials, if not names?

[centralcal]

No kidding, Porchlight. Sounds more like projection, to me.

[Sara (Pal2Pal)]

In both groups, all were conservatives to boot

A conservative at a UC campus must be a real rarity. Did they have "conservatives" back in the day? I don't recall this term used as a party designation until more recently, like after Clinton. It was a philosophy, yes, usually designated as someone stuck in the past (known in slang as the Mayberry party), but not as a political party. Now, though, you can join the Conservative Party USA here and more about Project Mayberry) here .

This is a recent study:

According to their research, some people genuinely know what it means to be a conservative in the current political debate and indeed express matching preferences across all issues. But these “constrained conservatives” (as Ellis and Stimson call them) account for only 26 percent of all self-identified conservatives.

More common are the “moral conservatives” (34 percent), who think of themselves as conservative in terms of their own personal values, be they social or religious. And they are indeed right-leaning on social, cultural and religious issues. But they also like government spending on a variety of programs and generally approve of government interventions in the marketplace, hardly making them true conservatives.

And still others, “conflicted conservatives” (30 percent), are not conservative at all on the issues. But they like identifying themselves as conservatives. To them, it somehow sounds better. “They like the word,” explained Ellis. Or at least, they like it better then their other choices in the traditional self-identification questionnaire: moderate and liberal.

Finally, a smaller group of self-identified “conservatives” (10 percent) could be classified as libertarian — conservative on economic issues, liberal on social issues.

I, for instance, fall into the last group, conservative on economic issues, liberal on social issues (abortion the exception).

[Rocco]

Oh the brutality

[peter]

Just beneath Clarice's excellent piece at AT was an article about a Catholic stealth-socialist organization founded by Saul Alinsky. I had never heard of CCHD until I read Stanley Kurtz' Radical in Chief. There's a collection the Sunday before Thanksgiving in every Catholic church, and the money goes to a radical group founded by Saul Alinsky. I think the word must be getting out about this stealth organization because this morning in church I noticed very few people put money in, and the priest who was saying the mass announced the collection in the most perfunctory fashion possible. More about cchd at the LUN.

[Sara (Pal2Pal)]

Give me a break. DoT is not a "disruptor diva."

You're joking, right?

Ignatz, don't be cute, you know exactly who they are.

[Barbara-Lurking]

Whenever OC was deployed on my shift in the prison where I worked, I, as medical staff, had to assess the inmate(s) involved after they'd been decontaminated. The staff was geared to the max, including masks, while I had the privilege of entering the unit in street clothes, sans mask. That brief exposure always resulted in an efficient sinus clearing.

[Sara (Pal2Pal)]

No kidding, Porchlight. Sounds more like projection, to me.

You should know ccal. Isn't about time you got some new pom poms?

[Gmax]

There was no special collection in church this AM so you information is off at least on that point.

[narciso]

Zany madcap humor,

http://dailycapitalist.com/2011/11/18/bob-shrum-hearts-jon-corzine-but-doesnt-want-us-to-know-about-the-missing-customer-funds/

[Jack is Back!]

Rocco, LOL.

Also, isn't there tasing training?

Of course, what really happened is that this hurt their feelings more than their eyes because they never expected it. Plus there was a former US Poet Laurate in the crowd and you never, never spray a poet especially one so honored.

OT: Skins FG - Now 17 to 10:

"Hail to the Redskins,
Hail Victory.
Braves on the warpath,
Fight for Old DC"

[narciso]

And you wonder why I stopped going to these things;

http://www.miamiherald.com/2011/11/20/2508571/born-troublemaker-shows-other.html

[DrJ]

because they never expected it.

If you are referring to the Davis incident, it should have been expected. There was a similar sort of protest about a year ago, when UC raised their fees. The protest march headed to I-80 (a major freeway), and the same sort of thing happened.

The protesters locked arms, went to their knees, and resisted arrest. The campus police used pepper spray in the very same way.

I wouldn't be surprised if the organizers drew from the same crowd, and hoped to get a newsworthy "incident."

[Jack is Back!]

DrJ,

If so, I wonder if the Nat Brown letter was already written and ready for distribution on an immediate basis to all friendly outlets like Bill Ayers website:)

[Sara (Pal2Pal)]

I think to be fair, everyone here should have to post publicly the names and addresses of their employers, their home addresses, and pictures of their spouses or former spouses, so that if any of the rest of us don't like some opinion or link you post we can stalk you and write letters in the hopes of getting you fired. And, of course, we need to see those pictures so we can mock their looks too. C'mon, what's fair is fair.

Who wants to go first?

[Jane]

Why don't you Sara, lest you be labeled a disruptive diva.

[Gmax]

Sara why dont you get a room with your boyfriend?

[Gmax]

Does that song have a second verse?

Cowboys tie it up. Grossman or Romo, who has the advantage?

[(Another) Barbara]

everyone here should have to post publicly the names and addresses of their employers, their home addresses, and pictures of their spouses or former spouses, so that if any of the rest of us don't like some opinion or link you post we can stalk you and write letters in the hopes of getting you fired.

We've already done that. It's in a place called FaceBook.

[narciso]

I was struck in my fishwrap's coverage of the local Occupy cell's in Little Havana, and one figures they try to find the most presentable faces, there was nobody from a very working class era such as there, or in Greater Miami,
the reports from the NY front had a little more variety, of course they had no such reticence is slagging the Tea Party relentlessly for the last 2 1/2 years.

[Porchlight]

You're joking, right?

No, I'm not.

[Jack is Back!]

OT:

Mrs. JiB returned last evening from Antwerp via Frankfurt on Lufthansa to Orlando. Yippee!

But she brought with her two new jars of Lotus speculoos one of which is "chunky". Now Frederick has an alternative to Nutella in the morning- chunky speculoos on English muffin. Yummy!

[Gmax]

Dana said he wasnt Dana so which is it, are you publicly supporting a liar? And you wondered why you met with less than enthusiasm here? Think then post...

[DrJ]

To change the topic, the dinner menu has been set: roast duckling, creamy mashed potatoes, sweet and sour red cabbage (from scratch!) and apple pie (home made, from garden-grown apples). And a nice Zin. Or two.

Thanks all for the good wishes!

[Gmax]

Demarcus Ware turns Grossman into turf pulp...

[centralcal]

Hi (A)B! Did you go on the NRO cruise this time too?

[hit and run]

Don't worry,Sara. All that information is on The List. Plus social security numbers and mother's maiden names, college transcripts, the passwords to everyone's email accounts, and a copy of everyone's long form birth certificate. Except Threadkiller's for some reason.

Anyway,it's in safe hands . . . as long as The List is happy.

[Porchlight]

Fantastic, DrJ - love the menu. Make it two Zins. :)

Speaking of wine, has anyone tried the nouveau yet this year? I have a bottle (Georges Duboeuf) but have been waiting to open it. Think I will do that tonight and toast DrJ.

[centralcal]

hhhmmm, Hit. I thought you were supposed to be the primo stalker of JOM (at least someone was fully convinced you were)? The List . . . as long as it doesn't involve chain saws, I am not too worried. lol.

[Charlie (Colorado)]

Charlie, I got caught in tear gas back in the Seventies, as I was trying to be a student at the University of Minnesota, as the cops tried to control rioting mobs that were tossing Molotov cocktails and blowing up transformers.

Mark, if that picture showed people throwing molotov cocktails or blowing up transformers, my opinion of whether that's appropriate force would be different.

These were people sitting passively on the ground. If you CS'd those people in the Army, you'd get a general court and might well end up in Leavenworth.

If you think a face full of pepper spray is appropriate force for someone sitting passively, I don't think we've got sufficient common ground to discuss appropriate force.

[hit and run]

Hail to the Redskins' D!

[Gmax]

How about a third verse to the song? Whitten goes for the go ahead TD

[Charlie (Colorado)]

My son went through basic training and part of that is tear gas in an enclosed room without a gas mask. Seems to me that the Army would not do that if there was any lasting negative effects.

Well, two things: first, a face full of pepper like that is like tear gas squared. (Look it up.) Being next to someone getting peppered at the DNC was like the tear gas exercise.

Second, being beaten with a rubber hose doesn't produce lasting negative effects either, but we'd call it brutal if the cops were beating those kids with a hose. Or their batons.

[Clarice]

Hit:" passwords to everyone's email accounts, and a copy of everyone's long form birth certificate. Except Threadkiller's for some reason."

HEH!

I sure hope Sylvia's not reading here today.

[hit and run]

I can neither confirm nor deny that I have a hidden webcam in Sylvia's house.

[Strawman Cometh]

This is starting to piss me off. How about a class action lawsuit against Whitehorse, Kerry, Bachus, et al. The plaintiff class would be the investors who bought these soon to be devalued stock shares (or sold shares that were soon to go up).

[Gmax]

Like I said, I got Romo. You want Grossman? The Bears didnt. Interception Cowboys. A steady diet of Demarco Murray awaits methinks.

[Charlie (Colorado)]

If you have ever experienced tear gas whether direct hit in the eyes or face or in an enclosed facility, it doesn't matter. Same effect.

Jack, you're just wrong here. First of all, tear gas, like most things, is dose dependent: higher concentrations are worse. Second, pepper spray it considerably worse than tear gas; different chemicals, different effects.

I realize we've already arrived at the groupmind consensus, but you just don't have your facts right.

[Mark Folkestad]

Charlie, where's your reading comprehension? I did not say the UC-Davis protesters were throwing Molotov cocktails or blowing up transformers. That was mentioned to explain why a lot of tear gas was present on my campus. The UC-D people were not sitting passively. They had repeatedly defied lawful orders to move and had locked arms to actively resist removal. Too bad my eldest brother isn't still around to hear your suggestion about ending up in Leavenworth. He was senior non-com at Ft. Leavenworth Disciplinary Barracks (prison).

[(Another) Barbara]

Hi (A)B! Did you go on the NRO cruise this time too?

No,CC. Dammit. First (domestic) one I've missed in a long time, but we had returned from the East Coast 4 weeks earlier and I couldn't face traveling that far again. I worried that Jane and Caro wouldn't have much fun without me so I arranged for them to be at Mark Steyn's table, as compensation. Jane apparently had other plans for that evening, though. A shame, yes?

[Charlie (Colorado)]

Of course, what really happened is that this hurt their feelings more than their eyes because they never expected it.

Jack, you're being an idiot. Go read about the actual effects of pepper spray ing the face: blindness, agonizing eye pain, incapacitating coughing and retching, and the occasional fatality if someone happens to have bad asthma or pulmonary problems.

[Jim Miller]

DrJ - Happy birthday! (And you have my sympathy for the paperwork in those proposals.)

Back to UC Davis:

The water neutral part is mildly puzzling: "One example is the new winery they opened: it is carbon and water neutral, and has zero emissions."

But I decided that just means that they recycle their dish water, or something like that.

And no one needs to tell them that it is pretty hard to make wine without using carbon.

[Jack is Back!]

ChaCo,

"These were people sitting passively on the ground. If you CS'd those people in the Army, you'd get a general court and might well end up in Leavenworth."

Actually, no. MP's carry pepper spray or Mace for detainee control. They could be sitting together refusing to move or go into their cells. You think that if the MP sprayed them he qualifies for a general court martial? I doubt it.

At NAS Jax for the air show all the naval police carried Mace - for a reason - to be able to employ it other than deadly force. You do not have to be in a active mode but resisting passively - it doesn't matter. Its purpose is to change the action or inaction of the belligerent (those refusing lawful orders by an authority).

[narciso]

THat big blockbuster revelation had a little flaw in it;

http://weaselzippers.us/2011/11/20/msm-making-excuses-for-occupiers-rampaging-through-the-streets-lobbying-firm-considered-plan-to-smear-movement/#comment-393386

[boris]

Charlie is a big guy with martial arts background and I've seen him on video acting to defuse an escalating incident involving activists hostile to Michelle Malkin.

Would not be surprised if Charlie does not think most cops do it right. (I know, Hooda thunk).

So Charlie, active resistance (locked arms) is not passive so one of your "facts" is actually a bit of an exaggeration. Still, their tools are pepper spray, taser, club, sidearm, and orders are to remove obstructing protestors. How should they proceed?

[Gmax]

My own personal experience with pepper spray and a very snarling German Shepard was he was uninterested in me any longer almost immediately but back to his snarling anti social self in about 20 to 30 minutes. YMMV

[Strawman Cometh]

DeAngelo Williams needs a haircut.

[Charlie (Colorado)]

Too bad my eldest brother isn't still around to hear your suggestion about ending up in Leavenworth. He was senior non-com at Ft. Leavenworth Disciplinary Barracks (prison).

Was that supposed to actually make any sense?

[Charlie (Colorado)]

So Charlie, active resistance (locked arms) is not passive so one of your "facts" is actually a bit of an exaggeration. Still, their tools are pepper spray, taser, club, sidearm, and orders are to remove obstructing protestors. How should they proceed?

Same way they usually do it: grab them, drag them away.

[Mark Folkestad]

Yes, Charlie. He'd be laughing his head off over your ideas of incarceration over using pepper spray.

[boris]

"grab them, drag them away"

If you are strong enough to rip their armlocks. Some officers may not be.

[Mark Folkestad]

Okay, Charlie, so the cops are going to move a whole group of interlocked people HOW? Use the batons as pry bars? Break bones and cause massive bruising, possible complications from blood clots? Or bring in the front end loaders, as in the crowd control method seen in "Soylent Green"?

[Strawman Cometh]

and the cops may suffer back injuries.

[Charlie (Colorado)]

Would not be surprised if Charlie does not think most cops do it right. (I know, Hooda thunk).

Yeah, yeah, I should have had this the first time -- I had a second thought.

Anyway, you're right, at least to some extent: a lot of cops do it right a lot of the time. But I also testified in an Internal Affairs investigation in my youth about seeing a friend getting his head purposefully smacked multiple times against a police car's doorframe. "Oh he bumped his head." (Result: the officer didn't get written up, but the city quietly covered the hospital bill.)

And I saw the Denver police ignoring a mop of dozens surrounding Michelle Malkin and threatening to kill her.

My opinion is probably colored by the Denver cops, who notoriously kill a few innocent bystanders every year.

[Gmax]

I thought I had heard the officers had been pelted with triple AAA batteries? If they had been that is a very significant fact.

[Charlie (Colorado)]

Okay, Charlie, so the cops are going to move a whole group of interlocked people HOW? Use the batons as pry bars? Break bones and cause massive bruising, possible complications from blood clots? Or bring in the front end loaders, as in the crowd control method seen in "Soylent Green"?

Mark, think first, then type.

[Charlie (Colorado)]

I thought I had heard the officers had been pelted with triple AAA batteries? If they had been that is a very significant fact.

Not for this question.

[hit and run]

Hail to OT!

[Gmax]

Most definitely for this question.

[Mark Folkestad]

The officers were backing off and some were obviously scared as the video ended. Vastly outnumbered by a taunting and shouting mob, could we imagine a situation where their sidearms could have been taken away and used against them?

[Charlie (Colorado)]

If you are strong enough to rip their armlocks. Some officers may not be.

Okay, I've got it, we're not thinking any more.

[Gmax]

Who knew Grossman had that kind of touch passing ability?

14 seconds is still time for Witten to get loose again.

[DrJ]

Jim,

The zero water footprint largely is from fresh-water capture (namely, rainfall) and internal recycling. They do have a water effluent stream, but it is balanced by water from the rain. I should have said zero net water.

But they do capture that evil CO2. Really!

[Jane]

We missed you AB. It was at least Friday before I saw all the people I knew on the cruise.

[Jack is Back!]

ChaCo,

You off your meds? Why are you such an asshole when someone has a different opinion. You really that smart or just think you are? I have noticed you like to use personal invective from time to time but don't understand why you do it. Is it some kind of medical thing or just a delusion of superior intellect?

I have read about the effects of pepper spray. Please send me a link where a single dose of pepper spray causes those effects.

"The Journal of Investigative Ophthalmology and Visual Science published a study that concluded that single exposure of the eye to OC is harmless, but repeated exposure can result in long-lasting changes in corneal sensitivity. They found no lasting decrease in visual acuity.[4]"

Those people were lucky that it wasn't tasers or batons or dogs. I have no problem with the police officers actions whatsoever.

[RichatUF]

Is it know if they were allowed to carry firearms in that situation?

[Mark Folkestad]

Charlie, I defer to your vastly superior intellect. Please tell me how my statement was so obviously ridiculous. I know that you've called me a frigging moron a couple of times before, so this must be tremendously frustrating for you. Please forgive my inferiority.

[Charlie (Colorado)]

The officers were backing off and some were obviously scared as the video ended. Vastly outnumbered by a taunting and shouting mob, could we imagine a situation where their sidearms could have been taken away and used against them?

Mark, you're talking about some other video. We're talking about the one where the police lieutenant walks down a row of people sitting on the ground, spraying them methodically in the face.

[Charlie (Colorado)]

I know that you've called me a frigging moron a couple of times before, so this must be tremendously frustrating for you.

Sometimes. Especially when it's clearly not a lack of capacity as much as it is a lack of will to use it.

[Rocco]

Rick...you're welcome

Barbara-Lurking...we always had a nurse present as well. That pepper spray made our jobs a hell of a lot easier. Thanks for putting up with it.

[Mark Folkestad]

Did you watch the WHOLE video? It was eight minutes or so. Or did you just watch the first minute, where the officer sprays the line?

[matt]

you demonstrate and you refuse to disband after being given fair warning, you get sprayed or arrested or both.

I attended a couple of the big demonstrations in DC @ 1971-72 or so (that was where the free love, which I never did get at the age of 15 or so, was at).

I got gassed and I got beaten about the head and shoulders and legs and tossed onto some dump in Anacostia for the night. I was someplace I didn't belong as my father reminded me a couple of days later.

F 'em. They know the rules.

[Charlie (Colorado)]

Why are you such an asshole when someone has a different opinion.

Depends. In this case, it's because normally somewhat reasonable people have decided on their opinion without thinking it through.

[Gmax]

It seems that JiB while being a Skins fan, has done his homework. I would say that Charlie that unless you have something extensively and immediate, you most definitely owe a deep apology. And btw, use of pejoratives never enhances your argument.

[Mark Folkestad]

Charlie, I was serious about sitting down and chatting in the future. It doesn't put you in a good light that you were totally dismissive of that offer. Clean up your act and you would be welcome when my new Alaska cabin is ready for company. I'm not afraid of civil discourse.

[Mark Folkestad]

By the way, Charlie, if you ever run into Mark Folkestad of Steamboat Springs, don't take anything out on him. He's a distant cousin, and there are no other Mark Folkestads in the world.

[centralcal]

Well, (A)Barbara what a thoughtful friend you were to Jane and Caro! I knew you had the big mainland trip fairly recently, but noticed you were away from the thread about the same time as the cruise, so I thought maybe . . .

Welcome back to the weekend slug fest! I really don't know why these folks watch sports on TV, it gets pretty exciting right here. (Chaco, Sara, et al.)

SCORE! lol

[hit and run]

Sports on TV has better divas.

[hit and run]

Hail to the kicking game!

[Gmax]

Demarcus Ware is a disruptive Diva

[Cecil Turner]

Clearly you've never been tear gassed or pepper-sprayed.

You'd think I'd have made one of the annual NBC training drills in twenty years of service. Wonder how I managed to miss 'em all? Oh, wait . . . [/eyeroll]

We're talking about the one where the police lieutenant walks down a row of people sitting on the ground, spraying them methodically in the face.

And then they sit there with very little reaction, proving that whatever he sprayed 'em with, it wasn't very strong. Then the video goes on to show arrests with the minimum possible force, and absolutely no use of billy clubs. (And the officers have nothing on their faces, again demonstrating the pepper spray or whatever it is isn't very strong.) Brutal? Okay, whatever you say.

[Gmax]

When you miss a field goal, you turn the ball over at the spot where the holder is, right? 42 yard line start.

[jimmyk]

We're talking about the one where the police lieutenant walks down a row of people sitting on the ground, spraying them methodically in the face.

The video I saw, they did have their arms interlocked, and their heads were bowed down, so the spray appeared to go not in their faces but on the tops of their heads. I can't tell from the video whether the police had tried other methods to move them out of the way first. While it seems that there were enough cops there to forcibly pry the protestors apart and drag them off the walkway, I suspect that would have also have led to brutality charges.

[Ignatz]

--Ignatz, don't be cute, you know exactly who they are.--

I can't help the cute part, but I'm asking who you think they are.
Is Dana one?

[Rick Ballard]

It appears that the Stupor Committee will toss in their cards tomorrow. The meme du jour from the MFM is going to be a "negative impact" on the economy due to the end of the 2% FICA holiday plus no extension of the 99 week FUnemployment package.

Any thoughts as to whether Boehner and McConnell should cobble up extensions? I'm really conflicted on this one due to the "green shoots" tenor of MFM business reporting over the past month. The true state of the economy is reflected in the drop in inbound containers at the Port of LA. Retailers have been planning on a rotten Q4 for months but you won't find many stories about it.

[Charlie (Colorado)]

Jack, there's the NYPD report, which notes (pp 3-4):

"The spray is designed for use as less-than-lethal force, adequate for incapacitating dangerous or violently resisting suspects."

Did those look like violently resisting suspects? (No, linking arms is not "violent resistance.")

It also notes that (pg 5):

"The Patrol Guide prohibits the use of pepper spray against subjects who passively resist (e.g., going limp, offering no active physical resistance)." [Emphasis mine.]

So that video shows actions which are prohibited at least to the NYPD. Continuing (pg 6):

They are taught not to fire the spray from within three feet of subjects, not to use the spray on a windy day, and not to use OC in group settings or for crowd control; they are trained to fire a maximum of two one-second bursts of the spray."

Other than the wind conditions, this cop violated all those rules.

So -- you may think that's appropriate use; clearly the NYPD would disagree.

(PS re "blindness" -- sorry, I didn't mean to imply permanent blindness; pepper spray causes temporary blindness.)

[Charlie (Colorado)]

It seems that JiB while being a Skins fan, has done his homework.

Fooled again.

[centralcal]

This may have been linked before, but man oh man! Whole sections of this should be used by the RNC throughout the 2012 campaign.

little kids - propeller heads - I hear stories you wouldn't believe

Chrissy Matthews is spittin' and sputterin' and poor Alex Witt never gets in a single sentence.

[Sara (Pal2Pal)]

If any of you ever got your heads out of your nether regions, you would know that I don't support Dana, I support the principle of fair is fair and at least a modicum of ethical behavior from professionals.

None of you want to do for yourselves what DOT took it upon himself to do to Dana and his family. You don't even see anything wrong with what DOT did. You are all hypocrites in this regard, since you won't or don't do the same for yourselves or your favorites.

Forget Dana, it could be anyone and my position would be the same, even for the people here that I truly find despicable.

Eff off GMAX. Can I please have your employer, home address, phone number, info on any or all of your children, addresses, places of employment, ages, and don't forget the pics. No? Then stick it!

[Gmax]

Do those cops work for the NYPD? On the other coast?

[Charlie (Colorado)]

Charlie, I was serious about sitting down and chatting in the future. It doesn't put you in a good light that you were totally dismissive of that offer. Clean up your act and you would be welcome when my new Alaska cabin is ready for company. I'm not afraid of civil discourse.

Mark, I'd be happy to talk to you any time. But you're defending egregious behavior of which I can't approve, and in this case police conduct that we've seen is explicitly prohibited by at least the NYPD. I just don't think we share enough common assumptions to talk about it productively.

[Cecil Turner]

There's one opinion, here's another:

Charles J. Kelly, a former Baltimore Police Department lieutenant who wrote the department's use of force guidelines, said pepper spray is a "compliance tool" that can be used on subjects who do not resist, and is preferable to simply lifting protesters.

"When you start picking up human bodies, you risk hurting them," Kelly said. "Bodies don't have handles on them."

After reviewing the video, Kelly said he observed at least two cases of "active resistance" from protesters. In one instance, a woman pulls her arm back from an officer. In the second instance, a protester curls into a ball. Each of those actions could have warranted more force, including baton strikes and pressure-point techniques.

"What I'm looking at is fairly standard police procedure," Kelly said.

But that's an argument over proper procedure, not brutality. For brutality, the ol' "I know it when I see it" seems the best test . . .and I'm not seeing any.

[Gmax]

Hail to MORAL victory? Cowboys win, Skins lose their sixth one in a row. I would not rub it in, except I figure that after Chaco my actions will appear to be quite reasonable!

[Old Lurker]

Rick, Seems to be no reason for a phony extension since it appears they are nowhere close to any kind of deal. Their clown faces are getting tiresome.

[hit and run]

Hail to the Diva!

[Gmax]

Sara SO I can officially putting you down for not liking me anymore? Tell us again about Mormon women not wearing garments until they are married. That was a good one.