Those Stupid Fox Viewers (And The Stupider HuffPo Writers)

Once again we see some catnip for the left - a Fairleigh Dickinson research group has published a fairly ridiculous poll, and the HuffPo got so excited after the first few paragraphs that they stopped reading.

Here is the HuffPo headline and lead:

Fox News Viewers Know Less Than People Who Don't Watch Any News: Study

Fox News viewers are less informed than people who don't watch any news, according to a new poll from Fairleigh Dickinson University.

The poll surveyed New Jersey residents about the uprisings in Egypt and the Middle East, and where they get their news sources. The study, which controlled for demographic factors like education and partisanship, found that "people who watch Fox News are 18-points less likely to know that Egyptians overthrew their government" and "6-points less likely to know that Syrians have not yet overthrown their government" compared to those who watch no news.

Overall, 53% of all respondents knew that Egyptians successfully overthrew Hosni Mubarak and 48% knew that Syrians have yet to overthrow their government.

That is accurate but woefully incomplete.  Had the Huffers pressed on, they would have found this tidbit about their own friends on the left:

New Jerseyans are not necessarily more likely to be knowledgeable about domestic politics than international events. Just 47% are able to identify the Occupy Wall Street protesters as predominantly Democratic: 11 % think they are Republicans. Viewers of cable news on MSNBC are the most likely to think the protestors are Republicans.  Watching the left-leaning MSNBC news channel is associated with a 10-point increase
in the likelihood of misidentifying the protesters.

Har de har!  Those daffy lefties have got Cairo covered but can't even figure what side OWS is on! C'mon, Lean Forward and smell the coffee!

Or maybe, this whole poll has a deeply dubious methodology.  Let's flash back to the question on Egypt - here we go, from the poll:

To the best of your knowledge, have the opposition groups protesting in Egypt been successful in bringing down the regime there?

Hmm.  As a more-than-casual observer of the international scene, I infer that current events in Egypt suggest that the protestors are asking themselves that very question. Massive demonstrations certainly suggest some local angst about whether the military replacement of Mubarak really represented regime change they can believe in.

The poll was conducted from October 17 through Oct 23, 2011.  I lack the character and commitment to essay the Fox archives, but let's check some NY Times headlines from October:

Oct 9: Church Protests in Cairo Turn Deadly

Oct 11: A Top Egyptian Minister Quits in Protest Over Killings

A NY Times editorial from Oct 13:

Egypt's Failing Army

... The army is increasingly at odds with the people and contributing to instability. Many Egyptians now understandably fear that the ruling Supreme Council of the Armed Forces, which took over when Mr. Mubarak was pushed out, will do anything to retain power and keep ordinary citizens from exercising their political rights.

Oct 15: Egypt’s Military Expands Power, Raising Alarms

Meet the new boss.  So as of Oct 17, those silly bunnys watching Fox weren't sure that protestors had "been successful in bringing down the regime there".  And we still aren't sure, even if the Huffers and the Fairleigh Dickinson people are.  Too bad the question didn't specifically cite Mubarak so we could have learned something.

As to methodology, I am deeply suspicious of this result:

By contrast, some media sources have a positive effect on political knowledge. For example, people who report reading a national newspaper like The New York Times or USA Today are 12-points more likely to know that Egyptians have overthrown their  government than those who have not looked at any news source. And those who listen to the non-profit NPR radio network are 11-points more likely to know the outcome of the revolt against Syrian President Bashar Al-Assad. However, the best informed respondents are those that watched Sunday morning news programs: leading to a 16-
point increase in the likelihood of knowing what happened in Egypt and an 8-point increase in the likelihood of knowing what happened in Syria.

"Sunday morning news shows tend to spend a lot more time on a single issue than  other news broadcasts, and they are less likely to degenerate into people shouting at each other," said Cassino. "Viewers pick up more information from this sort of calm discussion than from other formats. Unfortunately, these shows have a much smaller audience than the shouters."

In a total sample of 612 respondents did they really find a statistically meaningful number of people who watch the Sunday talkies but are not news junkies devouring newspapers and the internet?  That defies my credulity, but if they didn't, they have a huge covariance problem.  My alternative hypothesis is that answering yes to "Watch Sunday shows" serves as a marker for high overall news consumption, not as evidence that the Sunday shows are uniquely informative.

Here is the question on news sources:

I’m going to read you a list of news sources. As I read the list, just say “yes” if you got news from that source any time in the past week.

Nothing about frequency or intensity of consumption.  The gal who reads the Times and the WSJ on the train into work each day and religiously dials into the Sunday talkies is lumped in with the guy who picks up the NY Post for the football line and inadvertently caught a few minutes of the Sunday Fox show while getting ready for the football.  Whatever.

And with the samll sample size, we have a large margin of error of +/- 3.5% for the whole group, and of course more for sub-groups.  On the Egypt question, the "winners" were NPR with only 24% getting the "wrong" answer; Fox brought up the rear with 18% "incorrectly" indicating that regime change had not occurred.  Statistically significant?  Hardly.

All in all, a good job by the Fairleigh Dickinson team of self-promoting nothing into a bit of attention.

HMMM:  Utterly uncritical recycling from Taegan Goddard; not his usual standard.

GETTING SOMEWHERE:  Frances Martel of Mediaite picks up the OWS foible and provides some helpful bashing.

ALSO TOO EXCITED:  David Taintor of TPMDC never reads as far as page 2.

QUESTIONS I HAVEN'T SEEN POLLED...  How would a typical OWS protestor do on the seemingly simple question of whether the US had regime change with the election of Obama in 2008?  Hmm, the Street-coddling Geithner moved to Treasury, Gates stayed in Defense, troops were added to Afghanistan, Gitmo is still open, the Bush tax cuts were extended... maybe the 1% simply tapped a new figurehead.  I bet a lot would get it "wrong" (but they would, being Republican).

LACKING NEITHER CHARACTER NOR COMMITMENT: Cecil Turner tells us that yes, Fox did take a dimmer view of the spring uprising.  Eerily prescient?  Time will tell!

SECRET FOX VIEWERS:  From a new report by Amnesty International:

Egypt's military rulers have completely failed to live up to their promises to Egyptians to improve human rights and have instead been responsible for a catalogue of abuses which in some cases exceeds the record of Hosni Mubarak, Amnesty International said today in a new report.

"The human rights balance sheet for SCAF [Supreme Council of Armed Forces] shows that after nine months in charge of Egypt, the aims and aspirations of the January 25 revolution have been crushed. The brutal and heavy-handed response to protests in the last few days bears all the hallmarks of the Mubarak era."

 

Comments

[Clarice]

I've done my own survey and find the stupidest of all are those bright writers who allowed Ariana to take their free labors and parlay it into big bucks for herself and the sharpies at AOL who paid her big bucks for nothing.

[Gmax]

The definition of delusional from the cult leader AKA the NYT:

Liberals hope the Occupy Wall Street protests have shifted political debate from an overriding focus on the long-term danger posed by the federal deficit toward a focus on unemployment, income inequality and other immediate economic problems.

Or as we were aptly told in Animal House, "fat, drunk and stupid is no way to go through life".

[Jack is Back!]

Is this the same New Jersey that is profiled on the reality TV show "Jersey Shore"? Perhaps they used the crew members as the target audience and got Fox and MTV mixed up.

As I noted on the last thread, there are no tents or encampments set up in Tahir Square - the spark for OWS. But there is lots of pepper spray, tear gas, batons, etc. I believe guys like Brown, a true Ayers acolyte, would love to see the same reaction at Davis and all the other OWS sites.

I am with Rocco, this is all a radical left set up with an end game of getting one or more of the protesters killed.

[Danube of Thought]

Minus 19 at Raz today.

[Sue]

Amen Clarice. Huffpo should just quietly shut the eff up.

I hate these stupid surveys. Fox has the same news coverage as every other channel. I they are rioting in Egypt, you will see the riots on Fox non-stop. What the hell do they do differently on CNN or MSNBC? Have a chalk board and diagram it for the stupid?

[A whole shoestore full of 'em.]

The other shoe in ClimateGate has dropped. See L!ink U!nder N!ame.
======================

[narciso]

Another tendentious idiot, I mean he takes Stewart as an actual source for newa

http://books.google.com/books?id=ZxlguShq2C4C&pg=PA7&lpg=PA7&dq=Cassino,+Fairleigh+Dickinson&source=bl&ots=GXKnPkcnX7&sig=00a18Z22bPfjPnl9bkK11PSwPZI&hl=en&ei=27LLToeiH8mbtwevnZVf&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=13&ved=0CHcQ6AEwDA#v=onepage&q=Cassino%2C%20Fairleigh%20Dickinson&f=false

One might say that the Regime is in a Kornilov or Bakhtiar phase, or more properly to Egyptian condition, Naguib not Nasser, but as one of Souief's commenters
(back in 1999, put, Egypt has rarely had democracy. I don't understand the result on Syria, maybe wishful thinking.

[matt]

I find it interesting that the defining moments of the OWS movement to date are of some old bag getting pepper sprayed and then a bunch of dumb college kids have same done.

The way the global media is highlighting these incidents one would think it was Chicago 1968.

These encampments are at most a couple of hundred people whose demands are still inchoate. I feel like I'm watching Waiting for Godot with smellovision.

I attending an event at which Sheriff Joe spoke a few years ago I saw how it works. A very small group of professional attention seekers, very tight focus camera work by their enablers, and turn the gain up on the sound. Propaganda 101.

[Jack is Back!]

Kim,

Can't seem to dowload the file. Can you summarize?

[narciso]

Taintor is using the same copy as the Puffington Host, some might even call it plagiarism, 'I wouldn't' but some might.

[narciso]

Everywhere there is a discrepancy that diverges from their meme, they provide an answer to 'hide the decline' JiB.

[jimmyk]

What the hell do they do differently on CNN or MSNBC? Have a chalk board and diagram it for the stupid?

I think the main meme they are pushing is not so much that the news coverage is different, but that people who watch Fox are stoopid. A sure sign that they have no better arguments against conservative ideas.

[daddy]

Drat.

Over here I can't get any of Kim's links on the breaking new ClimateGate e-mails to open. All I can get is this miserable new story from the BBC's "Environment Correspondent", Richard Black.'New release' of climate emails.

It is worth reading because it is a perfect example of showing how hard the BBC tries not to tell their audience anything damaging to their AGW propaganda.

The story itself gives you no specifics, none of the e-mails, leads you to think the e-mails are being released in order to negatively effect the annual UN climate summit, and finishes by reminding us that "Reviews of "ClimateGate" in the UK, of the IPCC, and of Michael Mann's work by Penn State authorities, have all cleared scientists of fraud and malpractice..."

It does have a link to a Russian Server, which I can open but which tells me nothing

The takeaway from this BBC story is that this is nothing of consequence and that the BBC hopes you'll believe Richard Black and not believe any of this new stuff when it comes out on other sites.

And, what a surprise, on this particular story Richard Black has decided not to allow any comments, I suppose to avoid any distraction from his message. After all, who would possibly care to comment with specifics about a new ClimateGate E-mail dump.

[narciso]

yes, that is the meme, henry, but it deserves the right level of Nelson Muntz level derision,

[Danube of Thought]

Ridiculously inept methodology.

[narciso]

There's a reason why Orwell modeled his Minitrue, on his experience at the BBC Word
Service, daddy, but he meant it as cautionary
tale, not a cook book.

[narciso]

Nice attempt to 'resonate some understanding'
over there at TG, TM, I even provided my own
insight.

[Janet]

I am with Rocco, this is all a radical left set up with an end game of getting one or more of the protesters killed.

Me too, JiB....and like matt wrote - Propaganda 101.

[Melinda Romanoff]

JiB-

Go here.

There's a zip file to peel open.

[Sue]

[2007] What if climate change appears to be just mainly a multidecadal natural
fluctuation? They’ll kill us probably [...]

Just a sample of what the emails provide.

[The BBC invested their retirement funds in windmills.]

JiB, massively more emails, many downright incriminating. Also much context for previously released emails. Credibility for the principals is gone like a summer breeze.
===============

[Sue]

Phil, thanks for your thoughts – guarantee there will be no dirty laundry in
the open.

Unless someone does a document dump. Then, all guarantees are off, Phil.

[Cecil Turner]

There is a legitimate point about coverage. In an article entitled "Fox News' Egypt Coverage Five Times Scarier Than CNN, MSNBC" the Atlantic notes:

An analysis by Pew's Project for Excellence in Journalism suggests that Fox expressed greater concern for how events in Egypt would affect America's security interests and relationship with Israel. When Egyptian Vice President Omar Suleiman announced on February 11 that Mubarak was relinquishing power, PEJ notes, CNN's Ivan Watson discussed the "scenes of rapture" and shouts of "freedom!" in Cairo's Tahrir Square and MSNBC's Ron Allen described the "huge celebration" and the "feeling of just captivity" that Egyptians had under Mubarak.

While these guys are getting their tingle on, most of us recognize Mubarak was at least a fair-weather ally, and many of the protesters (esp. the Muslim Brotherhood) are not our friends.

But the FD poll is in fact ridiculous. Yes, the Fox viewers are less likely to term the uprising as "successful." For good reason:

The new wave of protests and violence around the country has left 29 dead and has thrown Egypt's politics into chaos less than a week before landmark parliamentary elections were to begin.

At best, it's a work in progress. And the Egyptian military runs the country . . . just like it always did (though Sadat was confused on that point for a bit).

It's reminiscent of the Pew poll that claimed to show Fox viewers were confused about Iraqi WMD and Bin Laden/Saddam Hussein links. Unfortunately, at least two of their "facts" are clearly wrong (and the third, about "world opinion" is a nebulous exercise in "who cares?" as opposed to the passed UNSC resolution that might actually matter). I suspect we'll get another Jon Stewart moment out of this one, so all the liberals can smugly assure themselves they're smarter than their benighted conservative fellows. With their facts wrong. Again.

[RichatUF]

A whole lotta email. Shows them actively obstructing FOIA (both British and US). Massaging scientific inquiry...on and on...makes the "investigation" look not like a whitewash, but a criminal cover-up.

[Sue]

I gave up on Judith Curry a while ago. I don’t know what she think’s she’s
doing, but its not helping the cause

Wow. I didn't realize they thought of it as a cause too.

[narciso]

You're not far wrong, Cecil, consider the good
professor's own tome on the subject, mentioned above, and they reference the John Hopkins PPA poll, commissioned by the usual suspects.

[daddy]

Thanks for the ClimateGate e-mail inputs folks. Keep 'em coming as the day wears on if you don't mind.

[Life is short, the art is long.]

Very good, Sue. One thing to note is that this cache reveals that the climatologists were asking many of the same questions among themselves that the skeptics were asking.

Climate science, and maybe science in general, is in big trouble over this. There are plenty of honest practitioners in the field, but they largely kept their qualms to themselves 'to further the cause'.

So much pathology; so little time.
===============

[C.R.]

There is a brief post by Charlie(Co)at the Tatler that posts some of the quotes from the email drop. LUN

[MarkO]

The "War on Christmas" was nothing compared to Obama's War on Fox News. There has never been a President so distainful of free speech.

[Gmax]

John at Powerline does an fair riff on a tedious op ed at the NYT ( is it pick on the NYT day ( Ed: that is every day ). here:

[W]e may acknowledge that some people almost certainly do deserve to die. But for better or for worse, there simply is no person or body that can be entrusted with the grave responsibility of killing them.

This is a point with which I have some sympathy. Similarly, someone has to decide how to spend the money that is raised from our citizenry in taxes, but “there simply is no person or body that can be entrusted with [that] grave responsibility.” This is, some would say, the central problem of our democracy. Still, capital punishment is rare to the point of being almost non-existent, while wasteful spending is ubiquitous. I, for one, have a lot more confidence in the people who make decisions on capital punishment–trial judges, juries, appellate judges and governors–than the people who make decisions on taxes and spending–Congressmen, Senators and presidents.

But but but that is different! How exactly?

[matt]

yeah, sounds like fox viewers just might be a more nuanced than their counterparts in their reading of complex situations, which speaks to a more thorough understanding of the news. i think there are quite a few polls out there that compare knowledge of civics and current events among fox viewers and others, finding that fox viewers are more knowledgeable.

[Sue]

Any work we have done in the past is done on the back of the research grants we
get – and has to be well hidden. I’ve discussed this with the main funder (US
Dept of Energy) in the past and they are happy about not releasing the original
station data.

I don't know the date on this email. I wonder if it is Bush's DoE or Obama's?

[henry]

There has never been a President so distainful of free speech.

There has never been a President with such good reason to dislike free speech.

[Sue]

I also think the science is being manipulated to put a political spin on it
which for all our sakes might not be too clever in the long run.

An example of what Kim was saying about asking the same questions skeptics are asking.

[narciso]

Remember this tidbit, which first came to light on the Beck show,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0iuW4QnF4-A

[Sue]

The way things seem to be going, I think it best if we discuss all FOI,
EIR, Data Protection requests in person wherever possible, rather than via
email. It’s such a shame that the skeptics’ vexatious use of this
legislation may prevent us from using such an efficient modern technology
as email, but it seems that if we want to have confidential discussions
then we may need to avoid it.

I shall delete this email and those related to it as part of my regular
routine of deleting old emails!

Cheers

Tim

Cheers back at you, Tim.

[narciso]

'These aren't the droids you're looking for,
move along':

http://www.translatingjihad.com/2011/11/egyptian-candidate-for-president.html

Wehner and Kristol, to the red courtesy phone

[narciso]

Here's a tip Norm, lets not come to the aid of someone who was blowing up American soldiers, just a few years ago;

http://www.tnr.com/article/politics/97684/questions-gop-candidates

[daddy]

Richard Black of the BBC has added more to his story that I linked above. He is still in damage control mode and "move along folks, nothing to see here."

While Chaco (nice link) and Kim and everybody else is going into the e-mails themselves to understand and provide insight, this is what Black has added for his BBC audiences consumption:

"Drip, drip

The first "ClimateGate" material arrived on the web almost exactly two years ago, just before the UN climate summit in Copenhagen that was scheduled to see about 140 heads of state and government deciding on a new global climate treaty.

A hacker entered a backup server at the university and downloaded a file containing administrative passwords, which were subsequently used to access a vast number of files and emails dating back to 1997.

It was clear at the time that only a small portion of the total tranche downloaded had been released. It is likely that the newly-released material was accessed during the original hack.

Three inquiries in the UK found that the CRU team had not acted fraudulently or tried to manipulate data, as they were accused of doing.

But the university accepted it needed to revise its policy for dealing with Freedom of Information requests, which it has now done.

CRU has also released all of the data it held from weather stations around the world - even some that the original owners of such data wanted kept private.

In partnership with the UK Met Office, CRU maintains one of the three most important global temperature records that have been used to demonstrate the reality of 20th Century warming.

A police investigation into the hack is still ongoing."

Did any JOMer learn anything new from that? Not me. In that bit of BBC historical fluffery did we learn that the original e-mails were first given to Black's BBC colleague Roger Harrabin, and that he sat on them? No. Or that it was revealed just yesterday that Harrabin was being paid thousands of pounds by East Anglia University's ClimateGaters to promote their AGW thesis in his BBC columns? Of course not.

Perhaps we could include the BBC in that Poll above about if folks who watch BBC only for their news are dumber than FOX viewers.

[narciso]

The whole pattern reminds me of the McAlman book, about how Darwin's theory was propagated, daddy, except for the obvious fraud.

[narciso]

If only they were as informed as say the Post readers;

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/robinson-republican-obstinance-responsible-for-supercommittee-failure/2011/11/21/gIQAvTcXiN_story.html

[Jack is Back!]

narciso,

Considering that its an AEI/Heritage sponsored debate - the questions asked will be more timely, important and less trivially political partisan as Norms.

What I don't understand is why an AEI/Heritage debate would be on CNN? Even more weird if on MSNBC, but still.

[daddy]

ThanksGiving Recipe OT:

Polar Bear Prepared Two Ways
Diced: Dice polar bear meat, leaving fat on some chunks of meat. Season pieces with bouillon, onion, Mrs. Dash Seasoning Blend and salt. Boil.

(Chef’s note: Polar bear fat is drier than walrus or seal blubber. It is neither fatty nor runny and is subtle in taste and very tender.)

Diced variation: Cook polar bear meat with frozen, sliced fermented walrus flipper.

(Chef’s note: When you eat the two together it sweetens the bear meat, and the bear takes away the greasy taste of the fermented flipper.)

Serve with: mixed greens and oil.

Stew: For choice cuts, choose meat form the back polar bear shoulder blade. Dice meat. Marinate in refrigerator for one to two days with beef bouillon, Lea & Perrins Worcestershire Sauce, garlic, onion and Mrs. Dash Seasoning Blend. After marinating, rinse well to remove some of the blood.

(Chef’s note: a small amount of brown sugar can also be added to the seasoning.)

Boil a pot of water and add onion, Mrs. Dash, bouillon, salt, Worcestershire sauce. Add meat and simmer for 1.5 to 2 hours. Add rice, potatoes and carrots, if available. Thicken with flour, corn starch or elbow macaroni about ten minutes before the soup is done. Let stew rest, then serve.

Serve with: homemade corn bread or biscuits.

For more fun such recipes, go here: From polar bear to walrus recipes, how Alaskans celebrate Thanksgiving.

[Rick Ballard]

daddy,

That's a nice example of what the spurious poll in question does not actually deal with. Is a BBC reader/listener or an NPR pap sucker or anyone relying upon NYT propaganda apt to have any more factual basis for "knowledge" than an aborigine waking up 500 miles into the Outback this morning?

[narciso]

Since I'm never had seal, daddy, does it have more beefy or pork taste,

[Sue]

After marinating, rinse well to remove some of the blood.

Ugh!

[daddy]

From Chaco's ClimateGate e-mail link at Tattler:

"I am afraid that Mike (Mann) is defending something that increasingly can not be
defended. He is investing too much personal stuff in this and not letting the
science move ahead."

[Janet]

Thanks you guys! Great tidbits, Sue.

[Captain Hate]

Why does anybody read the Post with imbeciles like Robinson writing for them? That link read like one of Lurch's bloviations minus the irritation of listening to him.

[matt]

daddy, do they have a good recipe for baby seal?

and that 2nd matt post was not mine. Perhaps another matt.

[narciso]

I picked it from the Doom pile at Ace, Captain, I'm sure I can find similar sentiments in my local fishwrap.

[Dave (in MA)]

Obama Voters (more likely to get their news from Saturday Night Live than FNC) say "Duh".

[daddy]

Matt,

Currently I'm having a Big Yak attack!

[Captain Hate]

I'm sure the herd of independent thinkers is marching in journolister lockstep to this one, narc.

[narciso]

No doubt, Captain, I'm just struck how dense
policy makers, all from the same Duke and Duke training program, I see are;

http://www.miamiherald.com/2011/11/20/2508954/when-will-the-drone-war-end.html

[Eddie Poe]

After marinating, rinse well to remove some of the blood.

It won't work. The police will find out.

[Jane]

Daddy,

Hopefully I fixed your commenting problem at you too. You were relegated to "spam" so I gave them a piece of my mind. And I fixed jiggity and reluctantly gave you credit.

[narciso]

Well if they actually looked at the data,
Blutarsky's advice would be the only proper
course,

http://blog.american.com/2011/11/did-the-supercommittee-see-these-two-horrible-debt-graphics/

And from Beck's charts, I think they're lowballing the figure.

[daddy]

Thanks Jane,

Glad to know you jiggered the system. So how was 'cruising ' with Mingo?

Sounds like a ton of fun!

Carp. Off to work.

[Benjamin Franklin]

So Maguire has some extra time to plumb the shallows, "Et Voila!, a nugget which has not been fully digested. My work is done for the day."

Or in other words " maybe, this whole poll has a deeply dubious methodology. "

Leave it to Maguire to make hay where the Sun don't shine.

[narciso]

Does this analysis and the remedies make sense;

http://www.nationalaffairs.com/publications/detail/taxes-and-the-family

[Benjamin Franklin]

Ahh. The wonderful antiseptic,; sunlight. You really can't beat it with a stick.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/21/business/media/occupy-wall-street-puts-the-coverage-in-the-spotlight.html?_r=1

"As police officers cleared protesters last week from Zuccotti Park in Lower Manhattan, the birthplace of Occupy Wall Street, they made sure most reporters were kept blocks away, supposedly for their own protection.

But in almost every other respect, mainstream news media outlets have been put right in the middle by the movement."

[narciso]

Well he seemed certainly more nuanced here;

http://shadow.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2010/10/14/woodward_s_missing_chapters

[pagar]

"Propaganda 101."

The only course leftists are required to pass.

[peter]

Aldous Huxley and C. S. Lewis had the misfortune of dying on the same day of the JFK assassination.

[narciso]

What was Churchill's line about statistics;

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/revised-q3-gdp-drops-20-20-misses-expectations-25-2-standard-deviations

[Benjamin Franklin]

What? Oh, he's just feeding the fish so they are fat enough when he shoots them in the barrel. Really, do you think he would say it if it didn't poll well with y'all?

http://money.cnn.com/2011/11/21/news/economy/gingrich_cbo_socialism/

"The Congressional Budget Office is a reactionary socialist institution which does not believe in economic growth, does not believe in innovation and does not believe in data that it has not internally generated," Gingrich said.

[jimmyk]

Does this analysis and the remedies make sense,

It's not all crazy, but very limited and focusing on the wrong things. It gives up on real tax reform (for example, keeping a 15% and 35% bracket), and tries to fine tune behavior with child subsidies.

[Rick Ballard]

Yeah, Mel! That validates his exact call on Q3 (IIRC). I had 2.2% which was in accord with consensus. Mel had .9% for Q4, I'll wait to see the sure to be jiggered Black Friday results to make my guess.

BTW - That 2% is true DOOM at 1600 Pennsylvania Ave. The vise tightens...

[Melinda Romanoff]

==Blind Squirrel waves paw, furiously==

Whocouldanode?

[Porchlight]

Aldous Huxley and C. S. Lewis had the misfortune of dying on the same day of the JFK assassination.

Wow. I had no idea.

[Benjamin Franklin]

NEWT !!!!!

http://smirkingchimp.com/thread/marty-kaplan/39775/students-cockroaches-or-dirty-hippies

"This weekend, watching police at UC-Davis coolly drench crouching, nonviolent students with pepper spray at close range, I couldn't help likening their ruthless canister blitzkrieg with my own roach attacks. To those cops, there wasn't a shred of humanity in those kids. They were disgusting bugs who deserved what they got.

This same weekend, at an Iowa "Thanksgiving Family Forum," Newt Gingrich sprayed bile at Occupy Wall Street protesters, denouncing them as lazy thieving self-righteous hypocrites, and instructing them to "go get a job right after you take a bath."

In the latest Reuters poll, Gingrich has pulled ahead of Mitt Romney and is now the frontrunner for the GOP presidential nomination. You can see why: with their raucous applause at Gingrich's onslaught, the Thanksgivers in that room have earned their right to be called the Republican "base."

[rse]

Well Kim.

Happy early Thanksgiving to both of us. What happens next when the foundation for the machinations is gone?

And it's not just science generally that's implicated. There has been a real problem with taking political theories and giving money to do research on them and then using the research as a basis for implementation because of the widespread interest. And all the "interest" was only created by chasing after grant money only available for pushing bad ideas.

One more caution generally, I know Snopes tries to mislead or limit the damage when rumors get too close for comfort to the desired media spin. There's nothing worse than when Snopes discounts a factually true story because they do not want it to be true and think it unlikely someone will know.

[Benjamin Franklin]

You really can't believe what they say while in campaign mode.

What I don't understand is why they think no one is going to pull their pants down around their ankles. It's like the kid on the morning news who applied for a job at a retail store and delivered his resume (name address-phone number) before stealthily exiting the store while carrying a stolen item, in full camera view. Doesn't everyone understand the 'eye' is everywhere?

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2011/11/22/democrats-say-new-romney-ad-distorts-obamas-words/

[Dave (in MA)]

http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2011/11/it-figures-uc-davis-students-agreed-to-be-pepper-sprayed-before-incident-video/
The UC Davis students who were holding the illegal protest on campus last weekend were warned that they would be pepper sprayed by the campus police. Not only that… But you can see in the video below that the students AGREED in the video to be pepper sprayed.

For some reason this didn’t make it into any of the liberal media reports on the incident; just like the fact that the protesters were chanting “f*ck the police” never made it into any reports.
As a Policeman bends over to tell the “Leader” of the protesters that they are going to be sprayed, the “Leader” responds (At the very beginning of the video):

“Your shooting us specifically? No that’s fine, that’s fine.”

[Benjamin Franklin]

http://peppersprayingcop.tumblr.com/

It was military grade PS. Recommended distance 15 feet. Actual distance---12 inches.

http://www.washingtonsblog.com/
"Researchers at the University of North Carolina at Duke University found that pepper spray could “produce adverse cardiac, respiratory, and neurologic effects, including arrhythmias and sudden death.”

Wikipedia notes:

For those with asthma, taking other drugs, or subject to restraining techniques which restrict the breathing passages, there is a risk of death. The Los Angeles Times has reported at least 61 deaths associated with police use of pepper spray since 1990 in the USA. The American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) documented 27 people in police custody who died after exposure to pepper spray in California since 1993. However, the ACLU report counts any death occurring within hours of exposure to pepper spray. In all 27 cases, the coroners’ report listed other factors as the primary cause of death, though in some cases the use of pepper spray may have been a contributing factor.

The US Army concluded in a 1993 Aberdeen Proving Ground study that pepper spray could cause “[m]utagenic effects, carcinogenic effects, sensitization, cardiovascular and pulmonary toxicity, neurotoxicity, as well as possible human fatalities. There is a risk in using this product on a large and varied population”. However, the pepper spray was widely approved in the US despite the reservations of the US military scientists after it passed FBI tests in 1991. As of 1999, it was in use by more than 2000 public safety agencies.

The head of the FBI’s Less-Than-Lethal Weapons Program at the time of the 1991 study, Special Agent Thomas W. W. Ward, was fired by the FBI and was sentenced to two months in prison for receiving payments from a peppergas manufacturer while conducting and authoring the FBI study that eventually approved pepper spray for FBI use. Prosecutors said that from December 1989 through 1990, Ward received about $5,000 a month for a total of $57,500, from Luckey Police Products, a Fort Lauderdale, Florida-based company that was a major producer and supplier of pepper spray. The payments were paid through a Florida company owned by Ward’s wife.

Pepper spray has been associated with positional asphyxiation of individuals in police custody. There is much debate over the actual “cause” of death in these cases. There have been few controlled clinical studies of the human health effects of pepper spray marketed for police use, and those studies are contradictory. Some studies have found no harmful effects beyond the effects described above.

Direct close-range spray can cause more serious eye irritation by attacking the cornea with a concentrated stream of liquid (the so-called “hydraulic needle” effect).

[narciso]

The earlier excerpt, really does show the fruits of 'Duke and Duke' media training, with
a virtual banquet of possible misteps, they chose this,

[Benjamin Franklin]

Those with a sense of humor MUST scroll down the Pepperspraying cop link.....

I especially enjoyed the Waldo and Stephen Hawking spraydown.

[Sara (Pal2Pal)]

As I noted on the last thread, there are no tents or encampments set up in Tahir Square

Reports yesterday said that as soon as a tent goes up the orders are to torch it. There are no tents since either the threat of burning them down or actually burning down some has made putting up tests a risky thing to do.

[narciso]

And Frank Rich can't buy a clue;

http://dailycaller.com/2011/11/22/whats-hate-got-to-do-with-it-frank-rich-gets-the-kennedy-assassination-wrong/

[Sara (Pal2Pal)]

BF: It is the ad I saw night before lasst, it is clips of Obama saying his own words, how do you distort that. He speaks for himself. Romney never says anything about Obama, just clips of Obama and then Romney says what he'll do, which contrasts with Obama seen in the clips but doesn't not repeat or distort.

What's their beef?

[narciso]

It was a bit of dowdification, that wasn't necessary, Obama has said plenty of questionable, ignorant insensitive things in the last three years, that don't need to be edited.

[glasater]

Sara-

I heard today that in the Romney ad, Obama is quoting McCain in a campaign speech.
Guess that's what the libs are upset over.

[Captain Hate]

Was Frankie let go in one of Pinch's increasingly frequent blood-lettings or did he mince out the door on his own? I never tire of seeing that quote by Jackie that cements what a witless bint she was; it almost makes JFK's whoring around understandable.

[Captain Hate]

I heard today that in the Romney ad, Obama is quoting McCain in a campaign speech.

You'd think after they stepped in it on Issue 2 that those dunces might learn something.

[Porchlight]

Cap'n,

A book came out a few years back stating that after Jack's death, Jackie had an affair with Bobby that ended only with Bobby's death. It sounded like the usual tabloidy trash, but apparently it contained corroboration of the affair by several well-known Kennedy friends and associates who were willing to go on record. "Oh yeah, everyone knew about it" - seemed to be the general reaction.

[Appalled]

Political ads are not where I go for honest explanations of the issues facing America, or judgement-free editing. I think the Romney people just wanted Obama in his voice saying that if he talked about the economy, he would lose. Obama was not talking about 2012 nor was he speaking in 2012 (and, for heavens sake, such a statement on his part would have made no sense in 2008).

As misuse goes -- this isn't. It's not like they edited Obama to explain that he was Queen of the Space Unicorns in the eyes of histelprompter.

[narciso]

That was probably C. David Heymann, who makes
my skin crawl, GeorgeTown Club or something to that effect

[narciso]

Right Skin crawler, wrong tome

[narciso]

This was the third time he had suggested such a thing.

[Ignatz]

I'm doubtful Gingrich would govern well and he's certainly not very conservative or libertarian but I think he is being greatly underestimated in his ability at running against Barry.
His one true talent is as an insurgent who portrays himself as taking on the establishment or the status quo.
His maneuverings around first Wright,and then Tom Foley were fairly brilliant and I suspect Barry and Axelplouffe would find him considerably wilier than they think. The problems seem to start once he's got the power he's been seeking.

[Benjamin Franklin]

Here's the Beef, Sara;

"The spot criticizes the president's efforts to turn around the economy, and among other things uses a clip from then-presidential candidate Obama from a campaign stop in New Hampshire from October 2008 saying "If we keep talking about the economy, we're going to lose."

But that's only part of what Obama said. His entire line is: "Senator McCain's campaign actually said, and I quote, 'If we keep talking about the economy, we're going to lose.'"

The president's 2012 re-election team in Chicago was quick to respond, saying "just last week fact checkers scolded Mitt Romney for distorting a comment the president made about creating American jobs and now Romney launches a deceitful and dishonest attack rather than outline his own record or plans for the future.""

After Romney took 'Lazy' out of context, it's more of the same.

It's possible Romney doesn't even realize the partial truth making it a lie, but it grows doubtful with each additional deliberate 'gaff'.

[Sara (Pal2Pal)]

Please excuse all my typos. I've been up all night with a stupid ear ache that has me seeing double and triple and hurts like an SOB. And I'm a bit discombobulated. I got a call at 8:05 this AM out of the blue from someone I haven't talked to since I was 18 and who at that time was the true love of my life. Has kind of thrown me a bit.

Have no emotional attachment there any more, but darn, my curiosity is now driving me crazy. More so because he said he never married because he never fell in love again. After I hung up, I started laughing (probably the pain meds) and thought, damn, I must have been good back then and wondered how to go about getting THAT mojo back. LOL.

I was just telling a close friend who laughed and said it was like reading a romance novel with the back half of all the pages torn out just when it was getting to the juicy parts. He says there are two choices, throw the damaged incomplete book away and forget about it, or finish it and then write it up and get on Geraldo or the Maury Povich show and talk about destiny and all that silly crap that I stopped believing in decades ago. My friend's diabolical sense of humor is 2nd only to my own.

Have any of you ever had an old love come out of nowhere like this? Oh and for the ladies I did get the important info, I asked him if he had gotten fat and bald in his old age and the answer was no, still has all his hair and still at 170. He keeps his deep sea fishing boat at Ft. Lauderdale and then comes down from New York for the Winter and takes it down to the Keys. So many openings, like he would still like to sail around the world, like we dreamed about doing as 17 year olds, but no first mate to do it with. I joked and said it would be hard to carry out first mate chores from a wheel chair and his answer was he could be my Cary Grant (I don't get the reference); and just put in a wider ramp.

I do think that destiny, whatever that is, will have to take a back seat to being a registered dem and union member. I don't think there is much of anything, not even 47 year old "true love" that can overcome that! LOL.

Fun times.

[Sara (Pal2Pal)]

Here is the Romney ad. Not sure what anyone is talking about. I don't see anything wrong with it. The only complaint that I've seen that seems to relate to the ad at all was last night someone was complaining that he is running against Obama instead of his rival Repubs. As you all know, I think that is a plus and what they all should be doing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H3a7FC0Jkv8&feature=player_embedded

No mention of McCain.

[Jack is Back!]

Sara,

Regarding my comment on the Tahir Square tent city (not):

It was mean't tongue in cheek as to how a really authoritarian anti-democratci military junta treats protests. Compared to the awful repressive American system. But then we have those wonderfully advanced Chinese who Tom Friedman wants us to be like exactly.

So, Tom, when the tanks start rolling toward UC Davis we will have reached your ideal, I guess.

[Benjamin Franklin]

Sara; I had a similar experience in 2006 and it has been life-changing. I don't know how it will work out for you, but I hope it leads to the bliss I've lived in since that time. The fate issue is not scientific (by our standards) but not without precedent.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0434409/quotes

" I, like God, do not play with dice and I don't believe in coincidences."

[Jack is Back!]

From an IBD op-ed today:

"But trying real hard to do what? Certainly not be president of the United States.

Remember back in 2007-08 the inexperienced ex-state senator, who'd been in Washington all of 24 months, was going to fix the place up with Hope and Change? He was going to bring feuding folks together because this is America and we are better than this and we have zzzzzz.

Some people say Obama is aloof. Aloof? The guy is in geosynchronous orbit, looking down his nose at the petty little world beneath his gaze. It took about 72 hours for newly-disputed president George W. Bush to have senior Democrat Ted Kennedy over for coffee in 2001 and the first of many what-can-we-agree-on conversations.

It took Obama more than 500 days to have Republican Senate leader Mitch McConnell over. Who cares if they don't like each other? Grow up! We're paying them a fortune to get our federal business done. How serious could Obama be about anything but baiting a trap?"

Bingo!

[Jim Miller]

A couple of years ago, Pew used twelve questions to measure American political knowledge. Here's my post on their findings.

And here's my summary of the findngs:

"Consistently, some groups do better on these quizes than other groups. This probably won't make the front page of your newspaper, but Republicans consistently do better than Democrats.

(Note that I said better, not well. I'll come back to that point later.)"

I thought that Pew's quiz questions were reasonable for a quick measure of political knowledge.

[Ignatz]

James Pethokoukis (frikkin Greek names) lays out the unfunded liability crisis we're facing. A mere $80 trillion or so, give or take. Mostly, we give and they take.
The first comment makes a good case it's actually worse than the graphs show.