Sunday School

Are Mormons Christians?  Opinions vary, and the Times explains why:

Mormons consider themselves Christians — as denoted in the church’s name, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Yet the theological differences between Mormonism and traditional Christianity are so fundamental, experts in both say, that they encompass the very understanding of God and Jesus, what counts as Scripture and what happens when people die.

...

On the most fundamental issue, traditional Christians believe in the Trinity: that God is the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit all rolled into one.

Mormons reject this as a non-biblical creed that emerged in the fourth and fifth centuries. They believe that God the Father and Jesus are separate physical beings, and that God has a wife whom they call Heavenly Mother.

It is not only evangelical Christians who object to these ideas.

“That’s just not Christian,” said the Rev. Serene Jones, president of Union Theological Seminary, a liberal Protestant seminary in New York City. “God and Jesus are not separate physical beings. That would be anathema. At the end of the day, all the other stuff doesn’t matter except the divinity of Jesus.”

There are also questions about the afterlife and the relative status of God and man:

Another big sticking point concerns the afterlife. Early Mormon apostles gave talks asserting that human beings would become like gods and inherit their own planets — language now regularly held up to ridicule by critics of Mormonism.

But Kathleen Flake, a Mormon who is a professor of American religious history atVanderbilt Divinity School, explained that the planets notion had been de-emphasized in modern times in favor of a less concrete explanation: people who die embark on an “eternal progression” that allows them “to partake in God’s glory.”

“Mormons think of God as a parent,” she said. “God makes the world in order to give that world to his children. It’s like sending your child to Harvard — God gives his children every possible opportunity to progress towards this higher life that God possesses. When Mormons say ‘Heavenly Father,’ they mean it. It’s not a metaphor.”

It is the blurring of the lines between God, Jesus and human beings that is hard for evangelicals to swallow, said Richard J. Mouw, president of Fuller Theological Seminary, an evangelical school in Pasadena, Calif., who has been involved in a dialogue group between evangelicals and Mormons for 12 years and has a deep understanding of theology as Mormons see it.

“Both Christians and Jews, on the basis of our common Scriptures, we’d all agree that God is God and we are not,” Mr. Mouw said. “There’s a huge ontological gap between the Creator and the creature. So any religious perspective that reduces that gap, you think, oh, wow, that could never be called Christian.”

And is The Book of Mormon scripture?

The Mormon Church says that in the early 1800s, its first prophet, Joseph Smith, had revelations that restored Christianity to its true path, a course correction necessary because previous Christian churches had corrupted the faith. Smith bequeathed to his church volumes of revelations contained in scripture used only by Mormons: “The Book of Mormon: Another Testament of Jesus Christ,” “The Doctrine and Covenants” and “Pearl of Great Price.”

Traditional Christians do not recognize any of those as Scripture.

Who makes these distinctions?  Mainly, Evangelical Christians:

In a Pew poll released in late November, about two-thirds of mainline Protestants and Catholics said Mormonism is Christian, compared with only about a third of white evangelicals. By contrast, 97 percent of Mormons said their religion is Christian in a different Pew poll released this month.

 Meanwhile, Romney is polling well in South Carolina, where Evangelicals are well represented.

 

Comments

[Danube of Thought]

Yuk.

[Tregonsee]

Whats in a name is not necessarily reality. You always knew that a county which had "People's" or "Democratic" or both in the name was in fact an iron Communist dictatorship. Mormons are good people, and I would vote for Romney without hesitation, and for the same reasons I would vote for a Jew.

[Clarice]

In the good old days even Deists and apparent nonbelievers could be elected President of the US without voter concern. Surely, intelligent people think there are more important issues.

[Extraneus]

I'd like to hear Reverend Wright's take on it before I make my own judgement. And while we're at it, let's hear from the Reverends Sharpton and Jackson, too. We don't hear the religious views of these men of the cloth often enough.

[Melinda Romanoff]

Six months at divinity school does not make a Jackson a reverential person.

[centralcal]

ha ha, Extraneus.

[sbw]

So the Times paws through the religious background of presidential candidates? Who knew.

[peter]

Now that most of Rev. Wright's most vicious sermons have been scrubbed from the internet, the topic of religion is safe. LUN

[sbw]

Nice, if painful, article, Clarice.

Society with others requires an agreement to be truthful with each other, which is surely at odds with the live-your-life-as-performance crowd.

Clearly, proximity to celebrity requires the skill to restrain the gag reflex.

I'd never make it at altitude. My feet are on the ground and, reading the article, I already have the urge to hurl.

[Ignatz]

--Meanwhile, Romney is polling well in South Carolina, where Evangelicals are well represented.--

Perhaps because Evangelicals understand POTUS doesn't stand for Pastor of the United States of America.

[Gmax]

Perhaps one of the great benefits of this election will be stop the painting of evangelicals all with the same broad brush. They voted for a Mormon and a Catholic in Iowa, and its seems two Catholics and a Mormon are doing quite well in SC. How to explain it. Lets leave it to the NYT...

[Porchlight]

I continue to think that Romney's Mormonism is far less of a problem for evangelicals and other Christians than it is for the mostly religion-free liberal Democrats who plan to spend a great deal of time talking about it between now and November, and have no intention of voting for Romney whether he is Mormon or not.

[sbw]

Has anyone yet pressed Romney on how much of Obamacare he will dismantle and how he proposes to do it?

[Jim Ryan]

SBW, Romney said he would grant every state a waiver by executive order. Because everyone knows the president can do whatever he wants by executive order. Anyway, I assume that stance flags a willingness to dismantle it, too.

[Jack is Back!]

Porch,

Ditto here. It will not be an issue for right-thinking people or even indy's (unless the progs/dems/left make it an issue). Which most likely will happen - Mormonism as a cult, a sect, a dangerous proselytizing religion, blah, blah, blah.

I mean, look what they did at Bain Capital:)

What you don't think the left can't find a way to make that as a connection?

[narciso]

Congrats on the pieces, parody has no peer, this esteemed Serene Jones;

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/serene-jones/equal-pray-for-women_b_833554.html

[narciso]

Yes, the most objective take, next;

http://onfaith.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/panelists/Serene_Jones/2010/11/do_ask_do_tell.html

[OldTimer]

If Mitt makes it to the White House, I would hope he uses his business and common sense to do do to the federal government what he's done in private industry. Downsize, downsize, downsize; thereby eliminating trillions of dollars spent fostering political corruption.

As long as his moral compass is set on honesty and integrity, I could care less about his religious beliefs.

[Danube of Thought]

Tim Tebow forgives the Mormons.

Minus 20 at Raz today.

[narciso]

As for Kathleen Flake, here's a morsel of her wisdom;

http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/panelists/kathleen_flake/2009/01/reverend_lowrys_elbow.html

[Extraneus]

FedEx Flight 705:

Auburn Calloway, a FedEx employee facing possible dismissal for lying about his previous flying experience, boarded the scheduled flight as a deadheading passenger with a guitar case carrying several hammers and a speargun. He intended to disable the aircraft's cockpit voice recorder before take-off and, once airborne, kill the crew using the blunt force of the hammers so their injuries would appear consistent with an accident rather than a hijacking. The speargun would be a last resort. He would then crash the aircraft while just appearing to be an employee killed in an accident. This would make his family eligible for a $2.5 million life insurance policy paid by Federal Express.

The crew fought back and lived to tell the tale. (Via Ace.)

[narciso]

I mean this is zany mad cap humor;

http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/panelists/kathleen_flake/2008/02/free_speech_and_right_speech.html

[narciso]

Wow, is this where she wants us to return to;

http://www.amazon.com/Politics-American-Religious-Identity-Seating/dp/0807855014

[Jane]

Capn' did you see that takedown of the guy running Gingrich's superpac?

Do you think it was as devastating as I do?

[narciso]

Do they have to be this obvious,

http://onfaith.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/panelists/richard_mouw/2011/03/arent_there_better_ways_to_do_intelligence_work.html

[Clarice]

Thanks.

[narciso]

Here's not entirely clueless, but he misses the main point,

http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/panelists/richard_mouw/2008/11/evangelicals_are_celebrating_o.html

[Ignatz]

This anti Bain and Mitt piece in the Washington Post indicates to me Mitt is smart and a good negotiator. The author seems to think it indicates Mitt's a liar when to most outsiders I'd say it makes the author a dope who got bested by Bain and is himself a liar for the many weasel words, to quote doofus Dana, in the piece.
As an example he claims the final bids to select the firm to buy the company for sale is binding and then describes it as only the method by which the two enter negotiations for a final purchase price and then accuses Bain of dishonesty for negotiating the best price for itself.
Sounds like he got his grapes crushed by Bain and now they've turned sour.

[narciso]

Well he gives no examples by which to gauge,
his observations, now his hernia inducing history of Goldman, 'innocent trees' for no good end, much like the Sorkin's ponderous tome,

[sbw]

Jim: SBW, Romney said he would grant every state a waiver by executive order.

I heard that and Romney is sidestepping the issue.

I want Romney to say more. I want Romney to say what sucks about Obamacare and what he believes in.

I want him to be forthright and not a stinkin' politician.

[Captain Hate]

Capn' did you see that takedown of the guy running Gingrich's superpac?

Do you think it was as devastating as I do?

Ack, I was late tuning into it.

[narciso]

Yes, this is going to work fine, how does one 'facepalm' in German;

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/der-verkauf-ist-verboten-germany-considers-ban-sovereign-bond-sales

[Ignatz]

Another economics Nobel laureate demonstrates why they should almost always be kept far, far away from the levers of power, and this one from the Hoover Institution no less. He thinks having the government a minority shareholder in public firms is an excellent idea, for example.
I guess Ivory Towers are equal opportunity brain sappers.

[narciso]

For those who cried 'crocodile tears' over the BP spill, it's curious to point out, it's predecessor, the Ixtoc, happened under PEMEX
management, in shallower water, and took twice
as long to clean up.

[henry]

Ignatz, I get calls from yahoos like that guy all the time. The numbers they put up before the "finals" are laughable. The true details are something else entirely. A used company salesman is no different than a used car salesman.

[narciso]

'nothing to see here, these are not the droid's you're looking for;

http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/01/14/2589487_p2/friends-fla-bomb-plot-suspect.html

[narciso]

Doubleplusungood thinking,

http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/01/15/2588621/wall-street-gets-a-sheriff.html

[Janet]

I have almost zero enthusiasm for Romney. It is gonna be hard to defend him from all the attacks that are coming.

[Danube of Thought]

"Capn' did you see that takedown of the guy running Gingrich's superpac?"

Did the attack happen on FN Sunday? (I have it on the DVR but haven't started watching it.)

[Benjamin Franklin]

The Anti-Bain Cap Job Creator......

http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2012/01/a-federally-funded-jobs-program-lessons-from-the-wpa.html

"Was this simply a “make work” program that made little difference in the long run? Or, was the WPA integral to the larger economy and its contributions socially useful? A truncated tally follows. (See below for a slideshow of projects under the WPA)
560,000 miles of roads built or improved
20,000 miles of water mains, sewers constructed
417 dams built
325 firehouses built; 2384 renovated
5,000 schools constructed or renovated
143 new hospitals, 1,700 improved
2,000 stadiums, grandstands built
500 landing fields; 1,800 runways (including participation in the construction of LaGuardia Airport, NYC)
State and municipal parks, including the foundation of the extensive California state park system.
100 million trees planted
6,000 miles of fire and forest trails created
Education: Through 1941, 1 million enrolled in adult education courses, 37,000 children in classes and nursery schools; 280,000 received music instruction, 67,000 art instruction.
Libraries were built. These were especially directed toward poor and rural communities.
Zoo buildings constructed

[William Teach]

So the Fish Wrap Of Record is going after Romney's religion? I'm glad they spent time on Obama's unhinged and radical pastor's religion.

[narciso]

Crikey they brought Schuster, out of 'witness
protection' Current TV, to comment on the Kantor book.

[OldTimer]

It's sobering to think that any one of our highest acclaimed talk-radio hosts would make better candidates than what we're sifting through currently. How about Sean Hannity and Mark Levin. They would lead us straight back to the sanity of the Constitution and reinvigorate the soundness of our Judeo-Christian founding principles. I'd rather have these two as interchangeable POTUS and Vice POTUS, if we're going to argue 'religion and faith'. :)

[Ranger]

...A truncated tally follows. (See below for a slideshow of projects under the WPA)

Posted by: Benjamin Franklin | January 15, 2012 at 11:26 AM

And yet, somehow all those public works failed to end the Great Depresion.

[Neo]

Bain disputes the Journal's calculations, but one test of overall success is whether investors keep entrusting a firm with their money. Mr. Romney and his colleagues raised $37 million for their first fund in 1984. Today, Bain Capital manages roughly $66 billion. Its investors include college endowments and public pension funds that have increased their investments in private equity to get larger returns than stocks and bonds provide. The people who benefit from those returns thus include average workers.

Damn, it’s those evil college endowments and public pension funds who have been destroying these jobs, with Mitt Romney as their enabler.

[Extraneus]

I have almost zero enthusiasm for Romney. It is gonna be hard to defend him from all the attacks that are coming.

I bet most of his supporters feel that way, too, Janet. That means he needs a primarily offensive strategy. Hope he realizes that.

[Janet]

Me too OldTimer.

[Ranger]

And I am waiting with baited breath for the NYT in depth discussion of Black Liberation Theology, and if "This is a world where white peoples' greed... runs a world in need" is in line with mainstream Christian theology.

[Captain Hate]

He thinks having the government a minority shareholder in public firms is an excellent idea, for example.
I guess Ivory Towers are equal opportunity brain sappers.

The inability to see the downside of this is pretty striking.

[narciso]

The interesting bit, in relative terms, was how he thought state organizations would do better, in the aftermath of Fukushima, really?

[Extraneus]

Pakistan Taliban Leader Reportedly Killed in U.S. Drone Strike

Gee, I hope they weren't mean to him.

[narciso]

I'm sure he got his comfy chair, like his predecessor Beitullah, it's a job with high
turnover.

[Pofarmer]

My wife and I are still going through this deal with Protestant vs Christian, and, I gotta agree with DOT, "Yuk". It would be a lot easier on both of us if we were both agnostic.

[narciso]

'Winthorpe, get in here;

http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/01/14/2588567/gingrich-a-party-of-one.html

[Benjamin Franklin]

"Gee, I hope they weren't mean to him."

Since we're diplomatically courting the Taliban, it seems more likely this is Sunni vs Shia.

[sbw]

Pakistan Taliban Leader Reportedly Killed in U.S. Drone Strike

No longer full of piss and vinegar.

[DrJ]

Off

[sbw]

Aargh. Larwyn must have done it!

[Ignatz]

--including the foundation of the extensive California state park system.--

A system now being gutted to pay for health care and college for illegal aliens and to fund government gold-plated, goldbrick pensions and high speed rails off of cliffs and utterly irrelevant but staggeringly expensive climate crap.

Imagine the tally of all the things that didn't get built that people really needed where and when they needed them because of 10 years of wealth destruction caused by Hoover and FDR's public works stupidity.
Imagine how much poorer the nation as whole was and is because of Hoover and FDR's concern for the poor and punishment of the rich put the US through ten years of needless suffering and poverty.
It's easy if you try.

[narciso]

That explains Current TV's great ratings;

http://weaselzippers.us/2012/01/15/goracle-msnbc-not-progressive-enough/

[Ignatz]

--It would be a lot easier on both of us if we were both agnostic.--

For now.

[narciso]

Can I tell you, this 'reset' thing is going great;

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/151739#.TxL2R5XgCKp

[Mark Folkestad]

sbw, regarding your "piss and vinegar", I am concerned that bunkerbuster might read that as the recipe for a salad dressing.

[Pofarmer]

Yeah, I know Ignatz. Problem is, I can't take the catechism as gospel, and she can't accept the taking the kids to a protestant church when whe works isn't going to ruin their lives. She cannot separate faith from church. She sees everything through the eyes of being Catholic. For instance, the pastor at the Presbyterian church I attend had a whole sermon on the importance of faith, and not just religion. The title was faith before religion, religion before Theology. That is so foreign to the Catholic viewpoint, she cannot comprehend it. And I can't comprehend essentially giving Children to the "Church".

[narciso]

The Solon of Scranton, has said the Taliban 'are not our enemy' and who are we to second guess?

[Jack is Back!]

Commenting from the emergency room at local hospital.

Fell and hit my lower back on edge of table. Hurts but can walk. Won't be playing golf for a while thats for sure.

They had TV tuned to ABC and this week. First time I have seen a MFM sunday news show and what a bunch of blind allegiant Bammybots. Yuk.

[pagar]

"I'm glad they spent time on Obama's unhinged and radical pastor's religion."

http://www.americanthinker.com/2012/01/obama_and_the_will_of_allah_comments.html#disqus_thread

-----------------------------------------------
Clarice, enjoyed your Pieces, as always.

[Gmax]

On smoking that Taliban leader, thank god we did not piss on him.

[narciso]

So sorry to hear that JiB, yes, Colbert and Perry, what could possibly go wrong?

[bio mom]

Jane, I saw the last 5 or 10 minutes of the interview on Fox. Yes, devastating. He looked like a liar and equivacator. Definitely was squirming and by the end was no making much sense.

[hit and run]

But is the table ok?

[Elliott]

Best wishes for a speedy recovery, JiB. Hope you aren't stuck watching the European tour on Saturday mornings for long.

[Ignatz]

--Yeah, I know Ignatz. Problem is, I can't take the catechism as gospel, and she can't accept the taking the kids to a protestant church when whe works isn't going to ruin their lives.--

It's got to be tough Po, especially as it effects the kids too.
It's stuff like this which I'm pretty sure caused Paul to declare he had resolved to only preach Christ and Him crucified.
Beyond that we seem to make a mess of everything.

[I Now Pass the Feather to the Next Moron]

Although I was 1-y during VN due to hypertension, my son who is an avid military historian has wanted nothing since age 5, but be a marine. He was tested at 60 but was rejected because of a history of asthma. Although a social liberal, I have always honored the true believers who volunteered.

The parallels between 1932 and 2008 are not trifling. Hoover won the nomination with 98% of the delegates, but it would be nearly 20 years before republicans regained the WH and 60 years before the House was regained.
Start rebuilding now, all ye of conservative hope.

Which republican candidate is talking about the success of the surge, or Afghanistan?

[Ignatz]

JiB,
Better guard that back. Injuries like that can do a number on a disc, if you don't pamper it, that might not manifest for months.

[Ignatz]

Umm, does that make me the next moron?

[Benjamin Franklin]

"Posted by: I Now Pass the Feather to the Next Moron | January 15, 2012 "

Your counter-argument has been duly noted. lol

[pagar]

"I have almost zero enthusiasm for Romney."

http://biggovernment.com/dmitchell/2012/01/14/why-does-mitt-romney-want-low-skilled-workers-to-be-unemployed/

"Earlier this week, I explained why Mitt Romney is a Republican version of Barack Obama. His transgressions include being open to a value-added tax, a less-than-stellar record on healthcare, weakness on Social Security reform, an anemic list of proposed budget savings, and support for reprehensible ethanol subsidies."

[Pofarmer]

It's stuff like this which I'm pretty sure caused Paul to declare he had resolved to only preach Christ and Him crucified.

Is there a cite for that?

[DrJ]

1 Corinthians 2:2

[Clarice]

Sorry about that accident, JiB.

[jimmyk]

The nasty attacks on Romney that will come from Axe and Barry will end up generating some enthusiasm for Romney in his defense. I feel this myself in response to the Bain and Mormon nonsense.

As mushy and frustrating as Romney can be, there's a gap as big as the Grand Canyon between him and Barry. Think about whom he'll likely appoint to the SC, the NLRB, etc. We just have to pin our hopes on Congress to keep Romney in line. Getting Barry and his clan out of there will be such a relief, we shouldn't let the perfect be the enemy of the good.

[Jane]

Did the attack happen on FN Sunday?

Yes. I'm interested in whether you think it was devastating.

[Jack is Back!]

Iggy,

Not spinal - muscle contusion. Painful but want to make sure no broken rib. So far, been here more than an hour and seen a couple of nurses and PA. Xrays next. Glad Green Bay is late game.

Hit, that table is petrified wood. Even an IED couldn't mar it.

Euro tour is in Jo'burg this week:)

[bgates]

I get the sense that Republicans as a whole have embraced the words of one of the Times' favorite theologians, who addressed a disconnect between two communities of faith by saying,

So long as our relationship is defined by our differences, we will empower those who sow hatred rather than peace, and who promote conflict rather than the cooperation that can help all of our people achieve justice and prosperity. This cycle of suspicion and discord must end.

[Pofarmer]

"The nasty attacks on Romney that will come from Axe and Barry will end up generating some enthusiasm for Romney in his defense. I feel this myself in response to the Bain and Mormon nonsense. "

We'll see, cause I'm pretty sure they intend to turn it up to eleventy.

[Jane]

JIB,

Can't walk as in it hurts or as in your legs don't work? Oh good, it seems to be the former. Hope you get in and out soon.

Bio Mom,

Thanks for confirming. When something seems that bad I wonder if I wasn't really paying attention, or missed something. The guy was a slime. Innuendo my ass.

[Clarice]

'm with you , jimmyk.

Jim Treacher in response to the pissgate hoopla posts this post WWII Noel Coward song about the Germans. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wveW9Tw2JKE I'd say that time has changed our resolve to punish old enemies, but I read that the BBC banned it at the time.

[Jane]

Janet, Pagar,

As I have apparently jumped on the Romney bandwagon, let me try to make you feel a little better.

I do think Romney is a problem solver and a good one. I do think he will make a big dent in all the horrid stuff that has stopped our economy. Whether he is willing to take it as far as we want, I have no idea. But I don't think he will be stopped by special interests.

Secondly Dick reminded me on Thursday that it was Romney who went after Matt Amerillo, the republican who presided over and screwed up royally the Big Dig. He was fairly fearless in that matter, and I think that would carry forth as well.

I think we will see much less cronyism under Romney, at least in the Oval Office. Whether that can translate into Congress, I have no idea.

He's not a crook and he's very good at fixing things. That is not all bad.

[Jane]

Sorry for the multiple posts, I'm paying for it by endless requirements to insert the funny letters in the red box.

I'm thrilled that there is so much push back on pee-gate. from Dana Loesch to Britt Hume, finally some people who see the forest for the trees.

[jimmyk]

He's not a crook and he's very good at fixing things. That is not all bad.

Yep. Where I fear he'll fall short is in constantly asking the question: "Why is the government even in this business?" That should be the first question about anything, even before you try to fix it. I'm sure he must have downsized and shed product lines in some of his turnaround efforts at Bain, but I haven't heard enough (or any?) of that sort of talk in his campaign.

[hit and run]

Jane:
I'm thrilled that there is so much push back on pee-gate. from Dana Loesch to Britt Hume, finally some people who see the forest for the trees.

Perry came out today with pushback too.

[hit and run]

With Obama,the best covert move was to get bgates as a teleprompter programmer.

With Romney,the best move is quite different. I am hoping Rick Ballard is appointed as chief pollster.

[Mebbe he meant St. John's.]

I don't think 'Harvard' means what he thinks it means.
===================

[Danube of Thought]

Sorry to hear it, JiB.

Jane, I look forward to watching FNS after the NFL.

[PD]

Good "Pieces" today, Clarice.

This is indeed the campaign of style over substance. But what else could it be with such an empty candidate?

[Jane]

"Why is the government even in this business?" That should be the first question about anything, even before you try to fix it.

Yeah me too. I've posted the link before about my favorite Romney story when he tried to stop legislators in MA from raiding the treasury for a colleague's unearned pension - by suggesting that they pay for it themselves. So he is not unaware of that issue.

[hit and run]

Hey PD -- happy first anniversary of the year. So far,I think only you and Frau have mulitple anniversaries per year.

[Gmax]

Jane

So he is willing to take on Republicans? Sounds like "my friend". How about an example of taking on, say, a Democrat?

[Ranger]

He's not a crook and he's very good at fixing things. That is not all bad.

Posted by: Jane | January 15, 2012 at 01:13 PM

And that alone would be a vast improvement over Obama.