Tax Brawl

Gregory Mankiw tries to bring Paul Krugman up to speed on the incidence of taxation, arguing that looking at Mitt Romney's low capital gains rate and ignoring any imputed corporate taxes paid by his underlyig investments is not accurate.  Regrettably, Mankiw is violating an old, established rule of blogging - don't come between a man and his tirade. Krugman is going to beat to death the horse he rode in on, and delivers howlers like this in the process:

If capital gains and other investment income didn’t receive special treatment, we’d be getting substantially more revenue.

Do tell.  In most cases the decision to incur a capital gains tax is entirely voluntary and is based on the decision to hold or sell an appreciated asset.  The CBO tackled this in a 2002 paper, noting that higher capital gains rates seemed to reduce the realization of capital gains, particularly in the short ru (so who's Laffing now?):

The sensitivity of realizations to gains tax rates raises the possibility that a cut in the rate could so increase realizations that revenue from capital gains taxes might rise as a consequence.  Rising gains receipts in response to a rate cut are most likely to occur in the short run. Postponing or advancing realizations by a year is relatively easy compared with doing so over much longer periods. In addition, a stock of accumulated gains may be realized shortly after the rate is cut, but once that accumulation is "unlocked," the stock of accrued gains is smaller and realizations cannot continue at as fast a rate as they did initially. Thus, even though the responsiveness of realizations to a tax cut may not be enough to produce additional receipts over a long period, it may do so over a few years.

...In projecting realizations beyond the current year, CBO gradually moves them to their historical level relative to output, adjusted for the tax rate on gains. That latter adjustment recognizes that with lower tax rates--even in the long run--realizations should be higher relative to GDP than they would be with higher tax rates.

Of course, higher realizations at a lower rate may or may not increase long-term revenue.

They also admit that the evidence on both sides is murky:

Because of the other influences on realizations, the relationship between them and tax rates can be hard to detect and easy to confuse with other phenomena. For example, a number of observers have attributed the rapid rise in realizations in the late 1990s to the 1997 cut in capital gains tax rates. But the 45 percent increase in realizations in 1996--before the cut--exceeded the 40 percent and 25 percent increases in 1997 and 1998 that followed it. Careful studies have failed to agree on how responsive gains realizations are to changes in tax rates, with estimates of that responsiveness varying widely.

...Estimates of the revenue effects of capital gains tax changes by the Congress's Joint Committee on Taxation (JCT) and the Treasury's Office of Tax Analysis (OTA) also take into account how realizations respond to tax rates.⁽⁶⁾ In 1990, when the Congress considered a 30 percent cut in the rate on gains, OTA estimated that such a cut would increase revenues by $12 billion over five years; the JCT projected a loss of $11 billion. If they had not factored in a realizations response, the two agencies would have estimated revenue costs of $80 billion and $100 billion, respectively--effectively illustrating how large a behavioral response is incorporated in capital gains revenue estimates.

What the CBO did not find was unambiguous evidence that "If capital gains... didn’t receive special treatment, we’d be getting substantially more revenue".  It looks like Krugman's personal pipeline to the truth is wide open.  And delivering Kool-aid.

SO TEN YEARS AGO... Surely we can do better than a ten year old CBO study?  Hey, be my guest, and stop calling me Shirley.  This table shows realized capital gains through 2008; the Tax Foundation tells me that the top long term gains rate was cut to 20% in 1997 and then to 15% in 2003.  Realized gains under Bush eclipsed the Clinton boom years by 2006; my quick calculation (applying the relevant top rate to all realized gains each year) is that capital gains tax revenue rose from 2001 through 2007 even with the lower rate, although obviously that is conflated with an improving economy. 2008, of course, was memorably not an example of an improving economy.

Since the lower gains rate is (casually if not causally) associated with higher revenues I don't think that data will update the CBO effort and provide conclusive evidence that raising the capital gains rate brings in substantially more revenue.

PLEASE MIND MY DELICATELY POISED BLOOD PRESSURE:  Somewhere a Krugman acoylyte is teeing up a response along the lines of "Krugman didn't say that raising the capital gains rate would raise revenue; he said that raising the capital gains rate and taxes on other investment income would raise revenue". 

Uh huh.  And if the Yakees could just sign me and Cliff Lee by next April they would be locks foe the World Series.

Comments

[Clarice]

Niters.

[Janet]

Mention chausses & lutes and Extraneus will usually show up.

[Threadkiller]

Oh noooo...

[hit and run]

Cookies.....get yer fresh hot cookies.....

[Threadkiller]

5000 screaming Girl Scouts at the moment. I will check in later.

[Chubby]

((This article is about a type of American high school debate. For the historical debates, see Lincoln-Douglas debates of 1858.))

The debate between Gingrich and Huntsman, touted by both debaters as a "Lincoln-Douglas debate" did not follow the 1858 format.

[narciso]

A bewildering set of rules, relevant to nothing;

http://www.fortunecity.com/tattooine/bester/101/fizzbin.html

[hit and run]

The Mississippi. We should divide and conquer based on the Mississippi.

If you are West of the Mississippi and want Girl Scout Cookies -- contact TK.

If you are East of the Mississippi and want Girl Scout Cookies -- contact me.

If you do not know whether you are west or east of the Mississippi, go to bed and figure it out in the morning.

My email is jomhitandrum@gmail.com

TK's is ...........

And cathyf (cookiemom extraordinaire) is.......

[Melinda Romanoff]

PL-

Nobody worked the lyricism of the James Bible like Lincoln. The meter caught most listeners just as they would their pastors. He had them by the second sentence.

[Sara]

Debbie Wassermann-Schultz, poster child of dumb.

The two highlights of this clip are when she is going on and on with a litany of everything wrong with Bain Cap. and/or Mitt Romney, when Kilmeade asks her if Bain is so bad, why would Barack hire his new OMB guy from Bain?

The other funny moment, and I swear the F&F Boys rolled their eyes, was when she said that Romney and Obama both went to Harvard, but while Evil Romney was gutting companies to line his pockets at the expense of the middle class, Saint Obama was out community organizing and saving making the world a better place. :: my eyes rolling too::

Fox Host Can’t Contain Frustration During Actual Eye-Rolling Interview With Debbie Wasserman Schultz

[Charlie (Colorado)]

She would but for the history of publicly displaying (tasteful) nudes of herself.

Link?

[Stephanie]

Geez y'all are late with the cookie blegging. We ordered our usual 2 cases of thin mints almost 2 weeks ago. My rule is whoever is first to the door gets my order for 2 cases. They freeze beautifully and make awesome ice cream toppings in the summer. Nom nom nom

[hit and run]

Chubby:
The debate between Gingrich and Huntsman, touted by both debaters as a "Lincoln-Douglas debate" did not follow the 1858 format.

Sure, I think it is important to distinguish -- are we advocating historical Lincoln-Douglas, highschool Lincoln-Douglas or 2011 GOP Primary Lincoln-Douglas.

I'm going out on a limb here -- Obama will use whatever the most advantageous definition -- no matter what may have been used between now and the 1850s.

[Melinda Romanoff]

Okay-

Here's a Presidential Debate question.

If a domestic fuel source became so bountiful and so easy to deliver to the average citizen for pennies on the dollar, why is it more important to send it overseas?

[narciso]

Sigh, I only heard about that instance, a thousand tentacles facepalmed at once,

[hit and run]

Link?

Posted by: Charlie (Colorado) | January 20, 2012 at 10:26 PM

To my inbox?

Even if I knew how,which I don't,I assume you would have the emails if she wanted you to have them.

[(Another) Barbara]

Thanks for posting the link to the John Ziegler article in American Thinker, CC. That's what I said here a couple of weeks ago -- more clumsily of course -- and virtually no comment ensued (as may be true re your link, as well). People who think that Newt would "destroy" Obama (or even exact slight facial wounds)in a head-to-head debate are deceived. Tom Maguire would have to hire grief counselors for JOMers for the morning after the first debate.

[Charlie (Colorado)]

Even if I knew how,which I don't,I assume you would have the emails if she wanted you to have them.

Party pooper.

[Stephanie]

Wow. Was there a neener- neener attached to that 10:29?

I'd say meeeeow but since it's two virile hunks sparring maybe that should be Rooooaaaaaarrrrrrr!

[Danube of Thought]

Ann, you make my heart soar like the hawk. I hope to meet you one day.

Having now learned the identity of the Garden Gnome, I am foursquare behind him, her, or it, and hoping desperately for a brokered convention.

And Sara, I think no one can challenge my credentials as a supporter of Mitt, which support was based on my thought that only he, among those in contention, had a chance of beating Obama. I am now wavering frighteningly about whether or not that is true, and let me assure you: it is not because of the MSM (blaming which is these days the last refuge of a born loser); it is not because of any attacks against him, whether fair or unfair; it is not because of his religion (about which I give less than a shit); it is not because of whatever wealth he has or does not have, nor how much he did or did not pay in taxes.

It is none of those things. It is simply that he seems determined to persuade America that on matters of public policy he has no principles, no courage and no clue. I supported him because I thought he could win. He, and he alone, has persuaded me that that is a dubious proposition.

[hit and run]

Stephanie:
Wow. Was there a neener- neener attached to that 10:29?

Yes but with ALL CAPS.

[Melinda Romanoff]

And G'night all.

[Stephanie]

Lulz, hit.

So who thinks the Criminoles are gonna put a whipping on Puke tomorrow that matches last weekends v the Tar Holes?

[Jim Rhoads a/k/a vnjagvet]

My problem is that Mitt has not been nearly as effective as Sara in his attempts to persuade the American public that he is the man to get us through the next four years without imploding like Spain and Italy. My fear is that there is no GOP candidate who is any more persuasive that he is the man to get us through the next four years.

Obama is going to do his best to persuade the American public to stay the course. One of the candidates had better find an overarching theme to beat the carp out of him.

[narciso]

the scary thing, Stephanie, is I can almost understand that entire sentence, I've made progresss, lol.

[narciso]

Mitt actually started off strong, last night and then he got stuck in the weeds of Masscare, denying it's not a mandate.

[(Another) Barbara]

It is simply that he seems determined to persuade America that on matters of public policy he has no principles, no courage and no clue.

We have 3.5 candidates standing, DoT, as you know. We must choose one. On matters of public policy, principle and courage, who is the better choice you are able to support?

[Stephanie]

Woot! We'll have Narciso's default football shape as oblong in no time.

Not that I give two $&@" about basketball though as my wondrous Yellow Spaztiks managed a whopping 37 points last night. For an entire game. And it wasn't the ladies team playing. Oy-vey.

[cathyf]

The Mississippi. We should divide and conquer based on the Mississippi.

Fine. I'm on both sides of the Mississippi every day, so WonderGirl gets all the cookie sales!

[Frau Fragezeichen]

"This is no casual relationship. "We saw each other for almost a year. On the weekends, mostly. Sometimes in her apartment, sometimes in mine."
That was pure B.S. from Billy the Bomber.

Sorry! Here I go again. It was documented in a Chicago publication that Barry had a live-in girlfriend (who was *not* black) and that relationship ended when he went away to Harvard law school. The location of the shared apartment and the name of the woman must be somewhere or was Axelturf that thorough?

[glasater]

Hey, Ann!

Mitt is going to look pretty shiny come mid year when the economy goes into the tank what with the goings on in Europe and un-stellar earnings on US companies.

[hit and run]

Hi cathyf!!!!!!!!

I'm not trying to start some online war.

I'm just pushing buttons as is my wont.

Princess hit and run went out today (teachers' in service day!) and killed it in the neighborhood. Good start.

Best to WonderGirl.

[Frau Fragezeichen]

(A)Barbara, add money, the essential political elixir. Who has it and who will bring it?

[cathyf]

Actually WonderGirl's sale doesn't start for another 3 weeks. And cookies are kind of a sore subject around here this year. (If this is as big a fiasco as I think it's going to be, it'll be my last year, I think.)

[narciso]

'Hmm, very interesting'

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/01/21/us-usa-pipeline-legislation-idUSTRE80K04320120121?feedType=RSS&feedName=politicsNews&rpc=22&sp=true

[daddy]

""And then, in time of emergency, there is none of this nonsense about women and children first”.

Beautiful DoT. Love that Winston.

[(Another) Barbara]

It was documented in a Chicago publication that Barry had a live-in girlfriend (who was *not* black) and that relationship ended when he went away to Harvard law school.

Why do I have a nearly uncontrollable urge to laugh whenever I read about "a girlfriend."

[Danube of Thought]

"On matters of public policy, principle and courage, who is the better choice you are able to support?"

The Garden Gnome. I pray on bended knee for the GG's miraculous appearance. Should it not occur, ther is no plumbing the depth of my despair.

[jimmyk]

People who think that Newt would "destroy" Obama (or even exact slight facial wounds)in a head-to-head debate are deceived.

I think he would destroy Obama in a fair debate designed to flesh out the candidates' positions and that allowed them to question each other. But what will happen is some "moderator" will start asking questions like:

[to Obama]: How frustrating for you has it been that the Republicans have obstructed your attempts at legislation to help the economy?
[to Newt]: What have you regretted most about your treatment of your first two wives?
[to Obama]: It's been said that you are your own worst critic. Sometimes it seems that you care too much. Do you ever wish you could be more hard-hearted like Republicans?
[to Newt:] You've suggested that janitors should be fired and that poor black students should clean up their schools. How do you sleep at night?

[MarkO]

I think we will need both knees.

[Barbara]

Exactly, jimmyk. Further, the eventual debate(s) - if it/they ever happen - will be negotiated like the Treaty of Vienna. Should Newt be the nominee (pray God it ain't so), he will not be allowed the kind of free form brawl that he wants.

It takes organization, strategy, a good ground game and plenty of money to become president. A debate will just be a blip on the screen. No way will Obama allow him or any other candidate to have more than one hour (two at most) of free TV time to bash away at him.

[narciso]

The media is the foe, the LUN is of one of the more meretricious version of fuddle feed,
which among it's recent top 50 are Gloria Alred and Megan McCain, men's magazines except
for possibly Men's Health, are afflicted with
the same idiocy, hence they champion the chicanery of a Clinton, with the faith of
Savanarola.

[Ann]

Narciso:

http://www.more.com/michelle-obama-mentor

OMG, rse. You can't make this carp up:

But for all her diffidence, FLOTUS has game. She can wave her invisible wand and make things happen. Like this innovative program, which taps White House staffers to mentor local high school girls, teaching them how to network by providing them cozy access to the administration’s vast brain trust. One call from FLOTUS, and a handful of 17-year-olds can be over at the Supreme Court chatting up a couple of justices or at the Department of Labor seeking advice from Secretary Hilda Solis about getting jobs in a tough market. Cosmetics mogul Bobbi Brown will be talking to them about beauty inside and out, and the president’s executive chef will bake them chocolate-chip cookies sweetened with organic honey from the hive in the first lady’s garden. FLOTUS doesn’t just make an entrance; she opens doors that are normally closed.

[(Another) Barbara]

But what will happen is some "moderator" will start asking questions like:. . .

Of course, Jimmyk. And that's only the half of it. Newt will also be properly respectful of the POTUS (as he has to be) and the moderator (as he was with King last night, when they ended the evening as chummy as the Bobbsey twins).

Someone said earlier today that they wanted a nominee "as sharp-tongued as Newt." *Sharp-tongued* does NOT win over voters in a general election, who are far different from primary voters and caucus attendees. Don't some of you talk with regular voters -- the vast majority who don't write on blogs, don't read political columns or blogs and don't listen to talk radio, but do show up on election day? No one has the unfavorables Newt elicits, as the figures shown here earlier document. I sat with a table of about 12-15 Republican women at an event recently. To a woman they all said "ABO, except if it's Gingrich. If Gingrich, I'll leave that part of the ballot blank."

I will not, naturally. I will vote for Newt if I have to, but then I will do all I can to be passed out when the counts start to come in. It will be a humiliating defeat.

[jimmyk]

A(B), I'm not sure if they count as "regular voters," but in my circle I've seen some of that, but also many who say "I can't stand Newt, but he's still far better than Obama and I'd vote for him if he's the nominee."

Your point is well taken, though: He does seem to have a high negatives and therefore would be a risky choice.

[narciso]

Beyond parody, isn't it Ann, one is tempted to ask 'how many suns are there on your world'

Romney has had 17 years to formulate an answer
about what he did for the previous 20, he's going to figure out one in the next six months

[daddy]

Narciso's 11:18 link above says that Congress has more clout on this XL Pipeline issue than expected.

I hope so, but tonight on the news I heard Lisa Murkowski had joined with 9 other Repub Senators to demand that the EPA, when studying "fracking", use the strictest Scientific standards.

Oklahoma senators want federal fracking study to meet strict scientific standards

"Sen. Lisa Murkowski, R-Alaska, one of the 10 Republican senators who signed the letter on Friday, said in a statement, “The EPA appears to have jumped to the conclusion that fracking is to blame for contaminating groundwater based solely on preliminary data that has not been fully vetted."

My pessimistic view is that this plays into the hands of the Administration. Repub's demand a very intensive study. Obama's Team magnanimously concurs in front of the MSM cameras, and just like all the idiotic studies done up here on Arctic drilling by Shell (over 4,000 at last count) those drag on for years and years and nothing ever gets done.

Hope I'm misreading this, and that by appealing to the EPA we're not getting suckered into a Charlie Brown/Lucy Football Kicking thing, but I prefer to believe Senator Begich was actually being truthful when 6 months back in a morning Talk Radio Interview he told us that the XL Pipeline would not get passed because of the anti-fracking Lobby.

[narciso]

What 1979's NMS finalist, Lias Jackson, it unpossible she would get that wrong, specially
with her brand new set of divining rods, I'm kind of dissapointed that Inhofe specially would fall for this, but not terrribly surprised.

[Chubby]

((I'm going out on a limb here -- Obama will use whatever the most advantageous definition -- no matter what may have been used between now and the 1850s.
))

I'll go out on a limb and say that if Newt is the Republican candidate and Obama accepts Newt's challenge, the format will replicate the Huntsman-Gingrich "Lincoln-Douglas debate", the only difference being that Obama will probably use a teleprompter, which Newt has said he's ok with.

The question of whether the GOP Primary form of Lincoln-Douglas debate more closely resembles the 1858 or the L-D style taught in high school is a question for another day.

I know a lot of people found the Huntsman Gingrich debate to be a snore, but I enjoyed it, found it very interesting and substantial.

[Threadkiller]

Did pagar drop this one off here yet?

http://hotair.com/archives/2012/01/20/holder-breuer-connected-to-players-in-foreclosure-fraud/

[narciso]

I did, on the other thread, I think.

[narciso]

It's supposed to be a strait news story, but
where is the other side, rhetorical question,

http://politics.blogs.foxnews.com/2012/01/20/obama-state-union-detail-plan-middle-class-success#comments#ixzz1k4CeAVjn

[Chubby]

hey Melinda, how are you?

if time travel were a current reality, I'd happily join a cruise to hear a Lincoln oration

[daddy]

I know that I don't know Narciso.

At the conclusion of Begich's conversation with Dan Fagan back in July I posted this:

"Anyhow, having listened to this discussion and transcribed it, I see now why the later Talk Host thinks Begich correctly believes there are going to be big ECO- hurdles placed in front of "Fracking" as a viable alternative in the Lower 48 anytime soon. To me it seems made to order for the Enviro Lobby:

---Legal suits demanding disclosure of the "Fracking" recipe.
---ECO studies forever to determine the ground water Enviro effects of those "Fracking" chemicals, etc.
---Moratorium's (both official and unofficial until Salazar is supposedly "satisfied."
---That Endangered Lizard in South Texas that "may" be harmed."

Begich was trying to encourage us up here to get cracking on what the State could do to take advantage of the interminable stalling that he expected to occur with the XL Pipeline.

I can't tell if these 10 Repub Senators have contributed to that interminable stalling with their request of the EPA or not.

[Sara]

DOT: As far as we are concerned, it will be moot. The nomination will be a done deal by the time you or I get to vote in June. If Mitt implodes, the only person I know for sure I won't be voting for is Santorum.

I caught a rerun of the debate earlier and I had quite a different impression the 2nd time thru than the first. I am tired of these debates and I wish they would take a rest and just get out and campaign for a few weeks. Mitt is so so so much better in his townhalls and rallies. Despite the off putting so many here say they feel because Mitt doesn't "connect" with them, it is just so different when he is in those more intimate settings. His warmth and genuine respect for those who turn out comes through. A close friend of mine keeps telling me that my less than luke warm opinion of Paul is a result of people (me) not getting him. He keeps sending me books by Paul to prove that he isn't entirely off the wall on foreign policy and he is spot on about domestic policy. He gets as frustrated with me as some JOMers get at me over Mitt.

Newt probably wants as many debates as possible since they drive his poll numbers up fast. They sink just as fast when he is forced to get out and campaign. I think Ron Paul is going to stay in 'til the convention and come in with more than enough delegates to be able to demand a major seat at any decision table. I think that is all he wants anyway, but to dismiss him is not a good idea. His voters are as loyal as any I've ever seen. I don't know how they are coordinating themselves so well, but it worries me after the debate the other night, where they were the ones leading much of the cheers and boos and not reflective of true support or non-support of Newt, Mitt or Rick.

If Mitt does not prevail, I have no idea what I'll do with my vote. My worst nightmare would be to have to choose between Newt and Paul. There will be no shutting up my friend, who by all reason should be a Romney guy. He's a CEO of a major food distribution company, an entrepreneur, and in an earlier life, a stock broker. Not as wealthy as Mitt, but definitely in the 1%, yet there he is, a rabid Paul supporter, even writing his name in during 2008. It is confusing, to say the least.

[Barbara]

Here's an interesting story from the National Journal: Insiders Divided Along Party Lines.

http://hotlineoncall.nationaljournal.com/archives/2012/01/insiders-divide-3.php

If frontrunner Mitt Romney survives the Republican primary process and becomes the party's presumptive nominee, a majority of Democrats surveyed in this week's National Journal Political Insiders Poll say he will enter the general election campaign a weaker candidate than when he began his run. But by an overwhelming margin, Republican Insiders feel the primary campaign has been a benefit, leaving Romney stronger and more prepared to take on President Obama.

Of those who voted in the survey, 89% of Republicans and 43% of Democrats feel that the primary process has strengthened Romney. Other Democrats believe the process has worked to Romney's disadvantage.

"Romney does not wear well. The more time you are exposed to him, the less you want to have a beer with him."

Of course, the same can be said of other candidates as well, especially Newt and Obama.

[Sara]

"Romney does not wear well. The more time you are exposed to him, the less you want to have a beer with him."

Well, I can't see Mitt Romney wanting to have a beer, period. :)

[Sara]

Barbara: The funniest part of that quote is that just as I was reading it, my TV was asking, "Will Newt's schtick wear well in the long run?" and the consensus was no, that people will get tired of it and eventually want him to actually say something of substance.

[Barbara]

Good point, Sara.

The first time that I saw Romney on TV was on C-SPAN during the debate over the Mass. Health Care proposal. He was giving a sort of Power Point presentation on the proposal and was very impressive. While taking some difficult questions from the audience, he was articulate, positive, informed and, I would say, very animated.

I thought that his performance in the debate Thursday night was good. I'd say very good if it weren't for the issue of the tax returns. OTH, his old nemesis, Huckabee, has said that Romney shouldn't release his returns adding that when he released 20 years of his own returns, it was the worst thing he ever did.

[Barbara]

the consensus was no, that people will get tired of it and eventually want him [Newt] to actually say something of substance.

I agree. Frankly, all of his answers are beginning to sound the same to me.

[daddy]

Just for fun...

DoT's mention of Wallis Warfield Simpson today prompted this.

Just about to head up to bed and I was doing some quiet stuff on the guitar and started playing Rodger's and Hart's "My Heart Stood Still." A beautiful tune from about 1926 or so, and with an interesting history, because I recall reading many years back on Mark Steyn's "Song of the Week" a very interesting tale of its origin and how it became "the song" for Prince Edward & WWS.

Apparently Rodgers (the music guy) and his brand new wife and Hart (the word guy) were in a Taxi in London, and the driver slammed on the breaks just as a pedestrian steeped off a curb, and Rodger's wife exclaimed "My Heart Stood Still", immediately upon which they pulled out pad and pen and wrote down the lyrics which became "My Heart Stood Still".

Steyn later said that somewhere shortly after the Prince met WWS, he ordered the orchestra to replay multiple times "My Heart Stood Still."

Anyhow, there was some other funny stuff in Mark's history of the song, much better stated by Steyn than by me, so I googled it but can't seem to dig it up from Steyn on Line.

That being said, I did come across Steyn's fun write up of "Oklahoma". This was in WW2 and just after Hart had dropped out of the music writing duo, and Rodger's wound up with a new lyrics partner, Oscar Hammerstein for this new project. Here's the link to that, which is well worth a read, and indicative of how intimately Mark Steyn knows his music history : Oklahoma!

Steyn's column concludes with this comment on Lawrence Hart, near the end of his days in WW2, listening over the radio to the music of Rodger's new partner, Hammerstein and the tunes of Oklahoma:

"Hart, who turned down Oklahoma! because he thought it was dull, understood. Alan Jay Lerner once told me of an evening he spent with Hart and Fritz Loewe a few weeks after the show opened. It was wartime and suddenly, in mid-conversation, there was a blackout. Loewe switched on the radio: it was playing something from Oklahoma! and Hart's cigar glowed brighter and brighter as he puffed furiously in the dark. Loewe tuned to another station: another song from Oklahoma! A third station: still Oklahoma! and Hart's cigar puffed brighter and faster. Eventually, Loewe hit a station playing some other tune, and Hart's cigar subsided. When the lights came on, he resumed the conversation as though nothing had happened, but Lerner knew better; he described it to me as a man confronting his own obsolescence. Rodgers and Hart were kids doing the show in a barn, with Rodgers and Hammerstein, the musical grew up."

FYI, here's our P'UK, doing Rodger's and Hart: Blue Moon.

G'nite.

[Sara]

I have vague memories of my Mother saying that abdicating the throne for a woman was the greatest love story of the century. I was very young and as I got older I thought that comment was very out of character for my Mother to make. Now that I'm much much older, I realize that it must have had a profound impact on young women of that day. I see pictures of her in her hey day and I have to think she must have other talents, because she wasn't good looking, at least IMO.

I think if I had my druthers, I'd rather be the King's Mistress, than some ostracized ex-king's wife.

[Extraneus]

Did someone say lutes?

"The feel of her tongue in his ear was enough to send Wolfram bursting from his chausses."

[sbw]

Daddy, Hammerstein spent time on the family farm. Apparently, recalling the lines:

All the cattle are standing like statues,
All the cattel are standing like statues,

he had written the phrase in a notebook ten years before.

[narciso]

He really knows how to make friends doesn't he;

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/nilegardiner/100130943/the-obama-administration-knifes-britain-in-the-back-again-over-the-falklands/

[Jack is Back!]

daddy,

Fracking regs don't affect the tar sand bitumen crude that Keystone will ship but it will affect the Bakken crude that eventually would tie into the Keystone main in Montana. The problem with that is that Bakken is a 10th of the volume of the tar sands crude. Of course, any restraint you can put on the efficacy of the total project the better if you are competitors which Oklahoma and Alaska deifinitely are.

[narciso]

It's all part of the juggernaut, agaisnt our
domestic oil production, Transcanada became
his bete noire, because of the AGIA line, which he somewhat neutralized by putting the Iago, Persilly, in charge of it, but that EPA
rule with the mouse, the generalized attack on Fracking, which is a Soros EarthWorks
specialty.

[Melinda Romanoff]

The block on fracking is going to come from the distorted, error filled Wyoming "Water Study" where they drilled too deep in a gas field so as to prove that drilling contaminated the water tables.

This one has been telegraphed.

[Danube of Thought]

"...people will get tired of it..."

In huge numbers they already have.

[hit and run]

Sara:
The funniest part of that quote is that just as I was reading it, my TV was asking

It really creeps me out when my TV starts talking to me.

[hit and run]

Chubby:
I know a lot of people found the Huntsman Gingrich debate to be a snore, but I enjoyed it, found it very interesting and substantial.

I missed that one, but I watched a goodly portion of the Cain-Gingrich Lincoln-Douglas "debate".

In fact, that occasioned my first (and heretofore only) appearance in Jim Geraghty's Morning Jolt - when I asked him why no right-leaning blogs or media were giving it any attention. All of them interminably whine and moan about the 30 second soundbite debates, about giving liberally slanted MSM moderators control over the debates, etc -- but given the opportunity to cover a free-wheeling debate that allowed candidates to go into depth on their positions free of moderator bias and stupidity, they all (including Jim) basically passed.

(Oh, and Jim's answer to my inquiry? The biggest college football game of the season to date was opposite the debate. I understand the demographics involved in why not that many people watched it -- but that doesn't really cover why the people paid to watch politics didn't)

[Janet]

Sorry! Here I go again. It was documented in a Chicago publication that Barry had a live-in girlfriend (who was *not* black) and that relationship ended when he went away to Harvard law school.

I hear ya Frau. For awhile there was some posts on Obama knowing Tom Ayers well too (Bill Ayers dad). Maybe the posts were at New Zeal or something posted by Steve Diamond.

Did someone say lutes?

Hah! I knew it would work!

[Janet]

Here is a Freeper post on Steve Diamond's King Harvest post about the Ayers family & Obama connection. It has the interview with the postman that delivered mail to the Ayers family & says he met Obama.

[Janet]

and here is Tom's JOM post about that time!

[Ralph L]

the scary thing, Stephanie, is I can almost understand that entire sentence, I've made progresss, lol.
Posted by: narciso
The pot has met the kettle, and they're boinking like rabbits.

[pagar]

"Did pagar drop this one off here yet?"

Mine was up at 10:12 AM on the "In Progress"
thread.

Here's More

http://abigailcfield.com/?p=686

"As I lay out below, AG Holder and President Obama have abandoned the cherished American principle-the core democratic principle-of equality before the law."

Part II

http://abigailcfield.com/?p=764

Recommended reading.

[daddy]

Thanks Mel,

I see that that bogus Wyoming study of Fracking Groundwater contamination is the one sited by the 10 Repub Senators as lacking in standard scientific rigor.

I still don't know if there gambit plays into the hands of Obama as a reason to never make a decision.

SBW,

"Oh What a Beautiful Morning." One of my favorites. Great great tune.

[cathyf]

The block on fracking is going to come from the distorted, error filled Wyoming "Water Study" where they drilled too deep in a gas field so as to prove that drilling contaminated the water tables.

I think that one backfired. I mean "they drilled a well down into a big known gas reserve and gas came out and now they are trying to tell us that has something to do with water wells when they drilled a gas well what a bunch of maroons!" fits right there in a 10 second sound bite. And "the scientists are doing science like a Marx Brothers movie" is a story that the muddle are amused by and repeat.

[Jim Miller]

Storm update: As of this morning, there were still more than 200,000 without electricity in this area, most of them in the suburbs and rural areas south and east of Seattle.

The ice is almost all gone from the low-lying areas, which makes it easier to get to the problems.

(As usual, there were some people who tried to heat their homes with charcoal grills. So far, no fatalities reported from that particular mistake.

And there is a political lesson in that: Our TV and radio stations warn us, every storm, not to do that -- and there are still some people who don't get the word, or don't believe it.)