Tax Brawl

Gregory Mankiw tries to bring Paul Krugman up to speed on the incidence of taxation, arguing that looking at Mitt Romney's low capital gains rate and ignoring any imputed corporate taxes paid by his underlyig investments is not accurate.  Regrettably, Mankiw is violating an old, established rule of blogging - don't come between a man and his tirade. Krugman is going to beat to death the horse he rode in on, and delivers howlers like this in the process:

If capital gains and other investment income didn’t receive special treatment, we’d be getting substantially more revenue.

Do tell.  In most cases the decision to incur a capital gains tax is entirely voluntary and is based on the decision to hold or sell an appreciated asset.  The CBO tackled this in a 2002 paper, noting that higher capital gains rates seemed to reduce the realization of capital gains, particularly in the short ru (so who's Laffing now?):

The sensitivity of realizations to gains tax rates raises the possibility that a cut in the rate could so increase realizations that revenue from capital gains taxes might rise as a consequence.  Rising gains receipts in response to a rate cut are most likely to occur in the short run. Postponing or advancing realizations by a year is relatively easy compared with doing so over much longer periods. In addition, a stock of accumulated gains may be realized shortly after the rate is cut, but once that accumulation is "unlocked," the stock of accrued gains is smaller and realizations cannot continue at as fast a rate as they did initially. Thus, even though the responsiveness of realizations to a tax cut may not be enough to produce additional receipts over a long period, it may do so over a few years.

...In projecting realizations beyond the current year, CBO gradually moves them to their historical level relative to output, adjusted for the tax rate on gains. That latter adjustment recognizes that with lower tax rates--even in the long run--realizations should be higher relative to GDP than they would be with higher tax rates.

Of course, higher realizations at a lower rate may or may not increase long-term revenue.

They also admit that the evidence on both sides is murky:

Because of the other influences on realizations, the relationship between them and tax rates can be hard to detect and easy to confuse with other phenomena. For example, a number of observers have attributed the rapid rise in realizations in the late 1990s to the 1997 cut in capital gains tax rates. But the 45 percent increase in realizations in 1996--before the cut--exceeded the 40 percent and 25 percent increases in 1997 and 1998 that followed it. Careful studies have failed to agree on how responsive gains realizations are to changes in tax rates, with estimates of that responsiveness varying widely.

...Estimates of the revenue effects of capital gains tax changes by the Congress's Joint Committee on Taxation (JCT) and the Treasury's Office of Tax Analysis (OTA) also take into account how realizations respond to tax rates.⁽⁶⁾ In 1990, when the Congress considered a 30 percent cut in the rate on gains, OTA estimated that such a cut would increase revenues by $12 billion over five years; the JCT projected a loss of $11 billion. If they had not factored in a realizations response, the two agencies would have estimated revenue costs of $80 billion and $100 billion, respectively--effectively illustrating how large a behavioral response is incorporated in capital gains revenue estimates.

What the CBO did not find was unambiguous evidence that "If capital gains... didn’t receive special treatment, we’d be getting substantially more revenue".  It looks like Krugman's personal pipeline to the truth is wide open.  And delivering Kool-aid.

SO TEN YEARS AGO... Surely we can do better than a ten year old CBO study?  Hey, be my guest, and stop calling me Shirley.  This table shows realized capital gains through 2008; the Tax Foundation tells me that the top long term gains rate was cut to 20% in 1997 and then to 15% in 2003.  Realized gains under Bush eclipsed the Clinton boom years by 2006; my quick calculation (applying the relevant top rate to all realized gains each year) is that capital gains tax revenue rose from 2001 through 2007 even with the lower rate, although obviously that is conflated with an improving economy. 2008, of course, was memorably not an example of an improving economy.

Since the lower gains rate is (casually if not causally) associated with higher revenues I don't think that data will update the CBO effort and provide conclusive evidence that raising the capital gains rate brings in substantially more revenue.

PLEASE MIND MY DELICATELY POISED BLOOD PRESSURE:  Somewhere a Krugman acoylyte is teeing up a response along the lines of "Krugman didn't say that raising the capital gains rate would raise revenue; he said that raising the capital gains rate and taxes on other investment income would raise revenue". 

Uh huh.  And if the Yakees could just sign me and Cliff Lee by next April they would be locks foe the World Series.

Comments

[Jane]

Hey Hit! What about Rocco, TC and Dave. They can email me and we can carpool.

[Barbara]

"hundreds of thousands of lives..."

[Janet]

Bankrupt Solyndra Caught Destroying Brand New Parts

"Green" company refuses to recycle!

[hit and run]

Hahahahaaahahaahahaaahhhaaa!

Just got my W2 today.

Now this is withholding,not what I'll eventually pay -- but my effective income tax rate?

11.00388030786163%

I'll release my full tax returns in April should I win the GOP nomination.

[hit and run]

Jane:
What about Rocco, TC and Dave. They can email me and we can carpool.

Indeed! I hope they felt included by my word "environs". I used that word intentionally. How many other three syllable words are that sofistickated?

[Clarice]

Gallup

allup’s top editor told MSNBC this morning that former Massachusetts Gov. Mitt Romney’s lead in the polls is “collapsing” across the nation, citing polling numbers that have changed dramatically over the last few days.

Frank Newport, Gallup’s editor in chief, appeared on the MSNBC’s “Jansing & Co.” to share the results of Gallup’s national tracking poll. The gap between Romney and former Speaker of the House Newt Gingrich is quickly closing, according to that poll.

“We’ll see this gap closing more,” said Newport. “Romney was up 23 points over Newt Gingrich. Now it will be down about 10 points. So clearly, things are collapsing.”

The Gallup poll showed a big lead for Romney nationally after he won the New Hampshire primary. But Gingrich has surged in the lead-up to the South Carolina primary on Jan. 21 with two strong debate performances.

“We have seen more movement, more roller coaster kind of effect this year than any other Republican primary in our history of tracking,” Newport said. “I think anything is possible. It wouldn’t be out of the realm of possibility if Romney recovers. We’ll wait and see.”

[Ralph L]

Did they rebuild the Army Navy Club before or after Iran-Contra? I remember they gave temporary membership to several of the other fancy clubs like the Cosmos, and my Dad didn't use it.

My father joined in 1952, and he no longer has to pay dues after 50 years of membership. I've eaten there all of twice--for lunch. And that was because my step-mother likes to show off how much of Dad's money she can spend.

We did get a lot of use out of ANCountryC for about 6 summers in the 70's, swimming with DoT's niece and nephews. And I have the skin damage to prove it. The idiot golf pro assigned homework the first day--copy the rule book--what an encouragement to play the game (which I couldn't anyway).

[narciso]

You all know the 'first rule of fight club' the corollary was what Tyler Durden, recommen ded, pick a fight ewith the press, whether Reagan, at the New Hampshire debate, or 'Poppy' with Rather, this from Rush's review,you can't be too congenial to the media and win,

[Danube of Thought]

After his retirement Winston Churchill was cruising the Mediterranean on an Italian cruise liner.

Some Italian journalists asked why a former British Prime Minister should chose an Italian ship.

“There are three things I like about being on an Italian cruise ship” said Churchill.

“First their cuisine is unsurpassed."

"Second their service is superb."

"And then, in time of emergency, there is none of this nonsense about women and children first”.

[Ralph L]

Could we please have a candidate with Gingrich's sharp tongue, Romney's looks and private life, Santorum's commitment to life, and Paul's domestic policy?

[centralcal]

DoT: What a fabulous quote! So timely, too.

[centralcal]

Ralph L: Sadly, that would be my former candidate: Garden Gnome.

[centralcal]

I saw that earlier today, too, Clarice (whispering: but I didn't want anyone to be offended if I posted it. grin.)

[narciso]

The problem is that's Mitt's entourage includes those who once were quite understanding of the bigger realities, like Charlie Black and Castellanos, but like zoo
animals they've gotten domesticated.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204555904577168683705018156.html?mod=WSJ_hpp_RIGHTTopCarousel_1

We were informed in no uncertain terms, that
some of that caliber, cc, wasn't allowed to play in 'those reindeer games' yes the metaphor is intentional.

[Ralph L]

The Italian cruise ship ran sank because it was wopsided.

Oh, the stupid jokes of childhood.

It would be nice to have politicians who didn't need speechwriters to say something memorable.

[narciso]

Wisdom like this, has to be inported;

http://nation.foxnews.com/msnbc/2012/01/20/nbc-news-gingrichs-racebaiting-really-effective-gop-voters

[Threadkiller]

If only, Ralph, if only...

http://www.tommcclintock.com/media/audio/1115

[narciso]

Of course that was the only obvious conclusion, sarc;

http://newsbusters.org/blogs/ken-shepherd/2012/01/20/biased-washpost-headline-justices-throw-out-texas-electoral-maps-favor

[Jim Miller]

daddy - One more detail on the ribbon seal: It was swimming in the Duwamish River, "a highly industrialized waterway that cuts through southern Seattle. In 2001, the EPA declared the last 5.5 miles of the river a Superfund site - an area contaminated with hazardous substances in need of cleanup"

That's a seal with strange tastes.

We've spent a lot of money cleaning it up but, except for salmon, the fish in the Duwamish are still considered too contaminated to eat.

(The Duwamish is the bottom part of the Green River. Yes, that Green River.)

[centralcal]

You know, after I had just about settled on Romney (due to private, behind the JOM scenes email), I have to go and read Mark Steyn at NRO. He makes me want to reach out and hug nameless Garden Gnome, all over again.

In a broader sense, the primary season seems oddly out of sync with the times. Chastised by Laura Ingraham for his characteristically tepid message on the economy, Mitt responded: “Do you have a better one, Laura?” There’s a campaign slogan if ever I heard one: “Romney 2012. Do You Have A Better One?”

Oh, before bricks are hurled my way, he isn't any kinder to Newt, but he didn't condense it into a bumper sticker like above.

[hit and run]

c-cal:
Oh, before bricks are hurled my way

You're doing it wrong.

In the spirit of Jim Ryan:

"I'd like to apologize for ________. But I won't. Because that's how I roll."

[Ignatz]

That Churchill quote at 6:59 is a gem, DoT.

Did you have that socked away because, given Italian idiosyncrasies eventually it had to come true, or did some site dig it up dopo l'incidente?

[Danube of Thought]

Some dude gathered up the latest faves and unfaves for Obama, Mitt and Newt:

Fox News, 1/12-1/14:
Obama, fav/unfav, 51%/46%, +5
Romney, fav/unfav, 45%/38%, +7
Gingrich, fav/unfav, 27%/56%, -29

CBS/NYT, 1/12-1/17:
Obama, fav/unfav, 38%/45%, -7
Romney, fav/unfav, 21%/35%, -14
Gingrich, fav/unfav, 17%/49%, -32

PPP, 1/13-1/17:
Obama, app/dis, 47%/50%, -3
Romney, fav/unfav, 35%/53%, -18
Gingrich, fav/unfav, 26%/60%, -34

Who is the Garden Gnome?

[hit and run]

Chuck Norris endorses Newt.

Big deal?

Or Newt becomes the next Huckabee?

[centralcal]

Who is the Garden Gnome?

Originally, it was "any of them," then it became "none of the above." Now, I am thinking "can we have a do-over?"

[Ann]

Could we please have a candidate with Gingrich's sharp tongue, Romney's looks and private life, Santorum's commitment to life, and Paul's domestic policy?

Can we add...someone with a sane wife or better yet a sane husband. wink,wink :)

[MarkO]

I've been listening to some of Mitt's purported explanations of the tax return issue. I firmly believe he's suffered a blow to the head. Maybe a mild stroke. Perhaps just the effects of a concussion from high school football.

As to Newt, I'm such a fan of forgiveness, needing it extensively, but the electorate tends to feign a forgiving attitude and then strikes down even those who are a bit late producing their tax returns. With Newt there is just so much to forgive and such a pattern of needing it in so many ways.

If we're down to Rick, and I invite you all to view his high school picture and tell me you would not have punched him in the hall, we are so beyond doom.

I'm off to a high school basketball game to watch my daughter cheer. She's a cheerleader and, yes, it's her mom's side of the family, not The Kid.

[hit and run]

DoT:
Who is the Garden Gnome?

The I-don't-care-who-wins-because-they-all-suck-but-whoever-does-has-my-vote-against-Obama-candiate

[hit and run]

Ann!

My favoritest all time evah!

(check my avatar if you think I'm kidding)

[Porchlight]

Oh, I kind of like Santorum's h.s. picture despite the Napoleon Dynamite vibe. Actually because of it. You got to like ole Napoleon after awhile.

I have a very deep defensive instinct regarding nerdy types.

[Ann]

I like the periwinkle hit. :) Or cerulean,but that gets me in trouble. :)

Always yours, A

[Ignatz]

--If we're down to Rick, and I invite you all to view his high school picture and tell me you would not have punched him in the hall, we are so beyond doom.--

That's some serious LOL, Mark.
However I'm more likely to have punched him in the arm or the nose than the hall.

[Ignatz]

Hi there, Ann, you cutey.

[Melinda Romanoff]

Anybody who has issues with taxation of investment income.

Linky.

Bookmark it as reference.

[Melinda Romanoff]

Hi Ann!

[hit and run]

Heh. I'm on hit and run jr's computer tonight,which had saved the periwinkle avatar from long ago comments. I wasn't even paying attention until I saw your post and realized my avatar was amiss on this machine.

xoxoxoxoxo

[Porchlight]

Hey there Ann!

[Jack is Back!]

DoT,

Can you provide the cite for the Churchill quote you used above? I have most of his in my lexicon and never ran across that one.

[narciso]

I can't even see my avatar, anymore with the all the geegaws and whatchamacalits, very technical language.

[hit and run]

Yours and Porch's are the same narciso.

[narciso]

Yes I see it now,

[hit and run]

Hmmm....I've never seen the two of you together in person.

[Porchlight]

I have the lamest avatar on JOM (no offense narciso, it's nice to share with you). I suppose I could just use another email address so as to have a different one.

[Ignatz]

Great article by Ed Driscoll at PJM on sociopaths like my dear lovely bro and OL's sis.

[narciso]

Broward County and the county that Austin sits in, are not that dissimilar.

[centralcal]

Have to catch up on the thread, left to eat dinner, but it looks like Romney hasn't committed to either the NBC or CNN debates set for Florida.

Howdy, Ann!

[narciso]

On the one hand I'm glad that's he's decided
'the beatings will not improve morale' on the other hand, he should have figured that a dozen debates ago.

[Chubby]

((Can you provide the cite for the Churchill quote you used above?))

I thought it was a joke ... a parody of something Churchill would not have said in a million years

[Clarice]

DoT, I love that quote. Ann, how nice to see you, beautiful!

[Ann]

Hi, Everyone.

It is freezing in ahia tonight. We have a roaring fire going. Sitting here reading all the doom and gloom.

Don't forget who we are still running against. They haven't changed. They have gotten worse.

[hit and run]

Go MarkO's daughter!!!

[centralcal]

Wow, Ann! That photo really captures both of their personalities sharply, doesn't it. They simply cannot disguise who they truly are.

[Chubby]

((it looks like Romney hasn't committed to either the NBC or CNN debates set for Florida))

I'm starting to find the debates boring .. I haven't tuned in to the last two. They are not real debates, just soundbite vs. soundbite ... fast food instead of a thick juicy steak with mashed potatoes and gravy. The candidates aren't given time to seriously get into it. If Newt ends up being the candidate I hope he follows through on his idea of challenging Obama to a series of debates in the Lincoln-Douglas style.

[Jack is Back!]

Hey, I hear your name is Ann, well I am your biggest fan. Want a light? Oh, sorry, didn't know you smoked. Would you like a drink? No? Then how about we jump on that horse of your's and just right the hell out of here?

Did I just hear an Okay?

[Janet]

Sitting here reading all the doom and gloom.

The political news is just terrible. I've got a FB friend who is a teacher that just posted a chart from the Party For Socialism and Liberation...a Marxist/Leninist group.

[narciso]

Where did you find that pic, Ann, Obama displays that self satisfied mug, and she
just has to grimace at the crowd.

[narciso]

Yikes, Janet, not in Arlington, I hope.

[Jack is Back!]

I am having a hard time watching the Humana Challenge with Clinton all over the place. I can not believe they would accept this patetntly obvious politcal sponsorship. Very disappointing.

[hit and run]

Chubby:
I hope he follows through on his idea of challenging Obama to a series of debates in the Lincoln-Douglas style.

Grrrr. Let's get this right.

Remember 2008? McCain suggested townhalls -- the least scripted,most interactive debate style available.

You know who proposed Lincoln-Douglas style debates?

Obama.

Why?

From Wiki:

The format for each debate was: one candidate spoke for 60 minutes, then the other candidate spoke for 90 minutes, and then the first candidate was allowed a 30-minute "rejoinder." The candidates alternated speaking first. As the incumbent, Douglas spoke first in four of the debates.

Obama would have nothing to fear from that format,no matter the GOP candidate. It's just one long speech after another.

[narciso]

Duke and Duke does earn it's dollar

http://pjmedia.com/tatler/2012/01/20/cartoon-at-cincinnati-dems-website-gop-protecting-americas-voting-whites/#comments

I think Kramer and the Human fund would fare better, JiB.

[Ann]

I was just going thru my photobucket. So many to pick from:

[Janet]

No, he teaches down in Harlingen, TX. I think at a community college. Reconnected at my reunion.

[centralcal]

It's just one long speech after another.

ZZZZzzzzz. A snore fest, huh?

[centralcal]

Heh, Ann. I just don't know where folks come up with that "angry black woman" image of her, do you?

[Clarice]

No--we need Oxford style debates--real debates and if someone like Gingrich wins the nomination you can bet that Obama will not participate even if the entire media plants its ass on the scales in his favor.

[Jack is Back!]

Clarice,

I am coughing up my guts thinking about a Cambridge style debate between Obama and Gingrich. Could we get the rights to that and the Orville Redenbacker concession at the same time?

[narciso]

That might exceed the yearly transfat allowance, Jib;

[Janet]

This was always my favorite -

[hit and run]

Clarice:
you can bet that Obama will not participate even if the entire media plants its ass on the scales in his favor.

Say what you will about "My friends" McCain and the campaign he ran.

He desperately wanted to do a series of townhalls with Obama throughout the fall. Challenged him on a number of occasions.

Obama said, no thanks and the media looked the other way.

So we had three traditional debates . . . moderated by the likes of Obama hagiographer Gwen Ifill.

Let Obama set the terms of the debates this time (Lincoln-Douglas ... I'd love to do that format!) and we'll get to later, rinse and repeat.

Of course,he's the president with the bully pulpit and he's got the MSM on his side -- so to think that whoever the GOP candidate is can use the debates to gain some gargantuan advantage is at best wishful thinking.

[Chubby]

((Grrrr. Let's get this right.))

Are you citing the Wiki entry for the "Lincoln-Douglas debates of 1858"? The format has changed over the years. This is what Wiki has to say under the topic "Lincoln–Douglas debate":

((Lincoln–Douglas debate (commonly abbreviated as LD Debate, or simply LD) is sometimes also called values debate because it traditionally places a heavy emphasis on logic, ethical values, and philosophy. It is a type of American high school one-on-one debate practiced in National Forensic League competitions, and widely used in related debate leagues such as the National Catholic Forensic League, National Educational Debate Association, the National Christian Forensics and Communication Association, the Texas UIL, and their affiliated regional organizations. The vast majority of tournaments use the current NFL resolution. The Lincoln-Douglas Debate format is named for the 1858 Lincoln-Douglas Debates between Abraham Lincoln and Stephen A. Douglas, because their debates focused on slavery and the morals, values, and logic behind it....

...LD debate follows the basic time schedule 6-3-7-3-4-6-3. Each debater gets thirteen minutes of speaking time, and rounds take approximately 40 minutes. Each debater receives three to five minutes of preparation time (prep time) to use between speeches however they like. While the amount of prep time is at the tournament's discretion, the NFL advocated three minutes until midway through the 2006-2007 season, when it decided on four. Some tournaments, most notably the TOC, choose to give debaters 5 minutes. Some tournaments also allow the use of flex prep, which melds the cross-examination time and prep time together to create a 6-8 minute block that can be used for questions and/or prep.))

LUN

[Ann]

Clarice,

I agree. There is no way Obama is debating Gingrich. Gingrich can follow him every day, to every state and Obama will not debate him. N.E.V.E.R.

Why should he. Gingrich is a racist and wants to make black children janitors. That is what Whoopi keeps telling us anyways.

[centralcal]

gack, Janet. Where is narciso and his famous goggles when we need them?

[Chubby]

there's quite a difference between the 13 minute speech of today and the 90 minute speeches of 1858. But there's also quite a difference between a thirteen minute speech and a 2 minute soundbite.

[hit and run]

Chubby:
Are you citing the Wiki entry for the "Lincoln-Douglas debates of 1858"?

Yes.

Your wiki starts with this:

This article is about a type of American high school debate. For the historical debates, see Lincoln-Douglas debates of 1858.

Maybe I'm mistaken in thinking "Lincoln-Douglas" in a presidential campaign refers to Abraham Lincoln vs Stephen Douglas.

Maybe the more modern understanding is this highschool debate format.

Don't tell me I'm that old and out of touch! Yike.

[Captain Hate]

Don't forget who we are still running against. They haven't changed. They have gotten worse.

Tammy Bruce earlier in the week was commenting about how in-your-face Mooch's birthday grazing dinner was with no effort to hide conspicuous consumption of $81 entrees and C-note appetizers. With automatic access to White House chefs they could've been even more ostentatious but shielded from a public that's suffered from every ignorant policy the dumb bastard has imposed on them.

I don't think there've ever been a more low class couple of grifters in any national office.

[Janet]

Huckabee is asking about Obama's student loans,
and Instapundit is asking about Obama's past girlfriends.

[Captain Hate]

Dear God, Worf is the First Tranny.

[hit and run]

centralcal:
Where is narciso and his famous goggles when we need them?

[centralcal]

Over at American Thinker today, John Ziegler wrote a piece:

The Myth of Newt the Great Debater

He is not a Newt fan, so there is that, but he also makes some very valid points about what any debate with Obama will actually entail and it isn't pretty.

[Clarice]

Having noted that Obama will not debate a good debater, I do think that Romney's slow on the uptake in the debates and in response to reporters generally is NOT a great attribute in a candidate for what promises to be a very dirty election.

[Danube of Thought]

The Churchill "quote" came in over the transom via e-mail, and I considered it too good to check.

Who is Worf?

[narciso]

I'm sorry Ziegler has become a pest and a half, exceeding the Ericson hack threshhold, which is not such an easy feat.

[Janet]

Hah! I emailed Instapundit a link to that Jack Cashill Am. Thinker article & he put up a link! Now maybe 283 other people did too, but I'm gonna take credit!

"In Dreams, in fact, the only lover Obama talks about is the mystery woman in New York. Although he speaks of her only briefly and in retrospect, he does so vividly and lovingly. "She was white," he tells Auma. "She had dark hair, and specks of green in her eyes. Her voice sounded like a wind chime." This is no casual relationship. "We saw each other for almost a year. On the weekends, mostly. Sometimes in her apartment, sometimes in mine.""

[Threadkiller]

Ann, those photos in a slideshow to the tune of "cult of personality" would be awesome.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NzdUy90vTuk

[Captain Hate]

Who is Worf?

Moochelle

[Captain Hate]

Janet mentions "windchimes" and sends the TK bat-signal.

[Clarice]

Janet, you are really about to take over the world. *air kiss, air kiss*

[Threadkiller]

Amazing, isn't it CH?

[Rick Ballard]

Janet,

Consider the source. I'm thinking butch dominatrix with a riding crop and spurs. Like his wife.

[narciso]

WE can say, 'we knew her when' before she hit the big time,

[Clarice]

Drudge header (Neilsen report
5 MILLION WATCH CNN DEBATE [6.2 MILLION MTV 'JERSEY SHORE', 18 MILLION 'AMERICAN IDOL']...

And there you are-

[centralcal]

Go Janet! Go Janet! GO JANET!

("shaking my pom-poms" as the official JOM cheerleader.)

[Threadkiller]

My evening plans...

http://www.sdgirlscouts.org/cko

Order sheets forthcoming.

;-)

[Captain Hate]

to the tune of "cult of personality"

You mean like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7d5n1IoqWFw&feature=related

[Janet]

And there you are-

Exactly. We'd be fine if everyone read JOM. The screaming headlines & TV soundbites still have so much power over Americans that aren't news junkies.

[Captain Hate]

Amazing, isn't it CH?

There are no coincidences in life; just weird ass shit.

[Melinda Romanoff]

The only thing I regret more than anything in our form of government, in comparison to the UK's Parliamentary form, is that we have no comparable "Question Time".

And this is Lady Thatcher's last "Time".

[Threadkiller]

That. Is. EXACTLY what I ment!

[hit and run]

No,no! Don't buy Girl Scout cookies from TK Junioress.

Buy from princess hit and run! She's natural born!!!!!! (believe whatever you want from TK heretofore -- but you know in your heart he would have led with that had it been true!)

(and don't let cookiemom cathyf try and horn in on the action)

[Sara]

I saw that earlier today, too, Clarice (whispering: but I didn't want anyone to be offended if I posted it. grin.)

Why would anyone be offended at poll results? I can see some being offended, possibly, by certain poll questions, but the results are just numbers.

I suppose some who live perpetually in denial might get upset.

I don't put much stake in a single poll, but they are useful to spot trends or changes. But then I'm far more into campaign strategies and how they get their message out.