I'm With Newt, Mostly

Newt Gingrich may take flak for this 'Let the people speak' stance on gay marriage, as reported by Politico:

I think at least they're doing it the right way [state referenda], which is going through voters, giving them a chance to vote and not having a handful of judges arbitrarily impose their will. I don't agree with it, I would vote no if it were on a referendum where I was but at least they're doing it the right way.

That is mostly my view, although I go further - I think it's fine if popularly elected legislatures rewrite the law.

My view on the judicial cram-down approach has evolved as well.  I still think it's coming, but it won't be as bad as the permanently divisive Roe v. Wade - experience will tell whether gay marriage strengthens, weakens or has no effect on marriage; experience with abortion hasn't, and won't, tell us whether life begins at conception.

Finally, everyone on the left talks about the Loving v. Virginia precedent but few seem to realize that the 1967 ruling was an example of judicial restraint.  The Supremes ducked test cases through the 50's; by 1967 a dozen states had repealed their anti-miscegenation laws and Congress had passed the Civil Rights and Voting Rights acts.

If Chief Justice Roberts and the current Supremes are guided by that history they will want to see a repeal of DOMA and the legalization of gay marriage in a number of states before they impose it on the hold-outs.  At that time, the current 'states rights' arguments offered by gay-rights advocates will become inoperative, but whatev.

Comments

[Jack is Back!]

Daytona 500 tomorrow. The 300 is today and Danica Patrick has the pole. We are crazy with people. I believe everyone in North America who owns one of those 48' Land Yacht RV's is down herer. More out of state plates than Florida ones.

After this week - its Bike Week and A1A becomes a parking lot of Hogs.

[Melinda Romanoff]

I'm sure letting the people speak will be wrong sometime soon, per ValJar.

[hit and run]

JiB:
Daytona 500 tomorrow....After this week - its Bike Week

Many gay married couples in those crowds?

[Gmax]

Flavor of the month. The progs will just move on to some other institution which is one more pillar holding up a civil and just society. How many gays do you know that have even medium term monogamous relationships?

If they want to have civil unions, go for it. No on marriage anyplace it has been brought to the voting public.

[Thomas Collins]

I don't measure the "badness" of a judicial decision on the basis of whether it is devisive. If, tomorrow, everyone in America woke up and started spouting the abortion on demand views of mainstream Dems, Roe v. Wade and Doe v. Bolton would still be horrible decisions. Unchecked judicial imperialism erodes the strength of our body politic.

Under the SCOTUS abortion decrees (they should not be given respect by being called judicial decisions), health includes mental health. Thus, if you can get a shrinko to say your pregnancy threatens your mental health, you can abort in the third trimester. Anyone who thinks such a right is embedded in the US Constitution is either delusional or a liar. And such is the case no matter what the latest opinion poll states.

[henry]

It seems that Judges do whatever they want all the time. Here is a live blog of 3 Judges deciding whether to reject WI redistricting maps. Nothing is wrong with the maps, it appears the judges don't like the process used to create them. With yet another voter ID suit filed yesterday, (number 6 or so), what are the odds of one judge acting like Sumi? Send pikes.

[Thomas Collins]

See LUN for Blackmun's opinion in Doe v. Bolton. Although Roe is the more widely discussed decision, it is Doe that lays out the steps for the note from the shrink rule.

[henry]

I need more coffee. redistricting trial live blog.

[hit and run]

Ed Morrissey reviews Act of Valor.

It's thumbs up all the way down.

[MarkO]

"I used to think that the U.S. Constitution would prove more resilient than the less absolutist liberties of other Western nations. But the president has calculated that, with Obamacare, the First Amendment and much else will crumble before his will. And, given trends in U.S. jurisprudence, who’s to say he won’t get his way? That’s the point about all this “free” stuff: Ultimately, it’s not about your rights, but about his."
Steyn: http://www.nationalreview.com/blogs/print/291919

[narciso]

the folks that came up with 'funemployment' noew have moved on to 'conplainversation'

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/opinionla/la-ed-gasoline-20120223,0,211624.story

'To serve Man,, it's a cookbook'

[Danube of Thought]

Minus 13 at Raz today.

[MarkO]

narc, that's right. The good thing is that unlike health insurance, we still have the opportunity NOT to buy gas. What a country. What a president.

Who writes this stuff for the Times? Middle school interns?

[narciso]

The (other)Times are moving to the 'more selective audience' strategy;

http://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/act-of-valor-with-real-life-seals-new-breed-of-war-movie-or-propaganda/2012/02/22/gIQAY1miYR

[Chubby]

If the question were put to referendum, I think conservatives, even gay conservatives, would rationally cede to the outcome whether it were pro or con their moral and poltiical biases. The statists however, even heterosexual statists, would scream and holler if the outcome came out agaisnt their moral and poltical biases, and they would dance in the streets if the outcome favored their biases. This graphically illustrates which side of the argument is lawless and hyprocritical, imo.

For the time being, because they fear the outcome will go against them, they will scream and yell that referenda is "mob rule."

[MarkO]

The Times review would have been glorious if only Obama had been cast in the movie as a brave killer of terrorists.

Some propaganda is more equal than others.

[Jane]

I agree with TM. When the court decided that gay marriage was "a right" in MA, they did no favors for the gays. Amy was already married via civil union in VT and she was the first to point out judicial activism would not help anyone.

Altho she married in MA for health insurance reasons she considers her anniversary the date of the civil union. None of it is about what the state decrees. (I've often told her she should get married 12 times, in 12 different states so she can have 12 anniversaries.)

At any rate, in MA there have been several referendums to put the issue of gay marriage on the ballot. All have passed. The legislature has ignored the will of the people and refuse to put it on the ballot every single time.

Unlike TM, I don't want to see the legislature have the choice because with all the gerrymandering you can't trust that you really have accurate representation.

[MarkO]

The fix is in for gay marriage. Use the Legislature or a referendum. If that doesn’t work, go to Federal Court. This die was cast in Loving v. Virginia.

That fix also works for polygamy.

[hit and run]

Phillip Ellender, President, Government & Public Affairs for Koch Companies Public Sector, LLC pens a missive to the Obama campaign.

Because every American has the right to take part in the public discourse on matters that affect the future of our country, I feel compelled to respond directly about a fundraising letter you sent out on February 24 denouncing Koch. It is both surprising and disappointing that the President would allow his re-election team to send such an irresponsible and misleading letter to his supporters.

For example, it is false that our “business model is to make millions by jacking up prices at the pump.” Our business vision begins and ends with value creation — real, long-term value for customers and for society. We own no gasoline stations and the part of our business you allude to, oil and gas refining, actually lowers the price of gasoline by increasing supply. Either you simply misunderstand the way commodities markets work or you are misleading your supporters and the rest of the American people.

It's as if they don't consider themselves subjects or something.

[narciso]

Yes, that's been clear with Prop 187, 229, Prop, 8, SB 1070, the list goes on and on.

Cognitive dissonance is a bug, not a feature;

http://washingtonexaminer.com/politics/washington-secrets/2012/02/michelle-obamas-pitch-share-wealth/304981

[Ignatz]

--I don't measure the "badness" of a judicial decision on the basis of whether it is devisive.--

If I say a strong "Amen" on a Saturday that doesn't mean I'm becoming a Seventh Day Adventist.
Amen, TC!

[Ignatz]

--That fix also works for polygamy.--

Bad ju ju. Even MarkO has now descended into the Octagon of Mormon bashing. :)

[Danube of Thought]

Obama has been listening to the odious gasbag O'Reilly.

[AliceH]

From the complainversation article Narc@9:35a:

In any case, it takes decades from the time a new oil permit is approved before a field is producing reliable amounts of oil, meaning that even if the wildest dreams of oil executives to drill in the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge and other protected places were granted today, it wouldn't have a noticeable impact on gas prices until around 2030.

They really are shameless.

[Captain Hate]

How many gays do you know that have even medium term monogamous relationships?

Eh, some lezzos in my neighborhood have been together for quite a while. I'm not ready to change the meaning of the word "marriage" for them, nor have they asked me to, but they're ideal neighbors and unfortunately get stained by association with the flamers who get much higher exposure in popular culture.

I agree that the homos are getting coopted by the left on the gay marriage scam and use them to destroy western values; the same lefties who will sell them out to the moooslims when push comes to shove.

[pagar]

Narciso, I don't believe I have read any link lately that has upset me as much as that 09:35 link. According to those leftists you have all kinds of alternatives to paying high gas prices. Drilling, of course, is not one.
----------------------------------------------
For anyone looking to put their books on Library Thing, the site lists a CueCat device for $15.00 that will read the barcode.

Also, "There are 42,903 copies of 89 books being given away."

[narciso]

From the earlier thread, the Jacobsen piece with the Pollak link;

http://legalinsurrection.com/2012/02/sarah-palin-october-2008/#comments

[narciso]

Aggressive stupidity is available at my fishwrap as well;

http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/02/24/2659374/anti-environmental-bills-make.html

[Captain Hate]

You can't talk about "aggressive stupidity" without this guy: http://www.redstate.com/leon_h_wolf/2012/02/24/richard-lugar-calls-tea-party-voters-morons/?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

[Jane]

How many gays do you know that have even medium term monogamous relationships?

As a percentage, as many as hets that have them. I think gay men are more promiscuous than gay women, but that may have changed.

I probably know 5 lesbian couples all of whom have been together for many years. I don't know any single lesbians at all. Being gay doesn't diminish the desire for marriage or family.

Most of the gay men I know are older, so they spent the first 40 years of their lives trying not to get lynched. Being a couple was not in their best interest. Now they are old.

[Danube of Thought]

"...it wouldn't have a noticeable impact on gas prices until around 2030."

Which of course is no reason not to grant the permits today, just as it was no reason not to grant them twenty years ago.

[Clarice]

Reuters:
Two Americans who were shot dead Saturday inside the Interior Ministry in Afghanistan's capital Kabul are believed to be a colonel and a major in the U.S. military, Afghan security sources told Reuters. A spokeswoman for NATO's International Security Assistance Force (ISAF) confirmed two of their servicemen had been shot dead in central Kabul by an individual who turned his weapon on them. She declined to say if the killer was a member of the Afghan military or police. The killings took place during a fifth day of fierce anti-Western protests across___________

[Clarice]

I think Obama's going to lose; we will repeal a lot of "environmental laws" and abrogate a lot of epa regulations, America will boom economically and the debt will vanish more quickly than we imagine.

Call me a cockeyed optimist, but from Media matters to global warming I see the rickety left infrastructure collapsing.

[AliceH]

According to those leftists you have all kinds of alternatives to paying high gas prices.

And one of them is, I kid you not, abstinence!

Heh.

[narciso]

And he doesn't mean in a good way, either, Captain, one cannot make policy based on anecdote, that was Red Liz's trademark, to peddle to the muddle, we have nothing to fear
from the serfs collar, Freedom is Slavery, Long Live Big Brother,

[Captain Hate]

they spent the first 40 years of their lives trying not to get lynched.

When was the last lynching in Massachusetts?

[MarkO]

I think Mormons officially gave up polygamy in the 1800's as a condition precedent to having Utah enter the Union. "Officially," I say because famously one of the apostate groups had its leader declared to be on the FBI's top ten most wanted, during the height of Islamic terror fears in the country. Around 2004 or so. Lack of institutional control or something like that.

I think, however, that other forms of coupling will receive the state's imprimature presently.

But, I digress.

[cajunkate]

I'm with Clarice-Obama's a goner!

[Clarice]

More collapse of the left-the Israel boycott divest crowd exposed.
http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2012/02/norman_finkelstein_accidentally_tells_the_truth_about_bds.html

Just keep pounding away and they;ll all collapse.

[matt]

Here in California Prop 8, stating that marriage was between a man and a woman passed.

It was then challenged and overturned in a 2-1 decision by the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals.

The decision was written by a gay judge living in a long term relationship.No, no conflict of interest whatsoever. Such is justice in the litigate to legislate society we have become.

[Ignatz]

Speaking of fairies:
the execrable Shepard Fairey enters guilty plea in criminal case stemming from his misuse of an AP photo for his infamous Barry socialist-realism poster.

[Clarice]

Would it be a conflict in your mind, matt, if the judge were homosexual?

California has lots of terrible judges.
I read last night tat to insure "diversity", California is now requiring its judges to reveal their sexual orientation.

[Captain Hate]

I'm still trying to wrap my head around the concept of a child of Holocaust survivors being anti-Israel. How can you hate your parents that much?

[Clarice]

I ment "heterosexual", matt.

[Jack is Back!]

pagar,

There are serious problems with the Cat at LibraryThings. I have one and its never worked even doing all the things some guy on LibraryThing suggests.

Hit,

When I lived in San Francisco the only reason to go down to Market for the Gay Pride parade was to check out the Dykes on Bikes but none here. Most of the 500K bikers are fat ass dentists, MD's, lawyers and business men who grow a goatee, shave their heads, bring their trophy wives with them and act like fat ass dentists, doctors, etc. Also, there is this big push to not drink and drive with bikers but every bar on US1 and A1A is packed with bikes. Guess the coke and 7 up are flowing freely.

[Ignatz]

--When was the last lynching in Massachusetts?--

1986; Bill Buckner.

[Jane]

When was the last lynching in Massachusetts?

I dunno, and the people I am referring to are not in MA. I noticed a trend tho, gay men who are now pushing 70 survived by being in the closet or being clowns. Probably the gay man I have known the longest was always the clown in the room and I have no doubt he did it for survival. He's a small guy who is pretty obviously gay. That is totally unnecessary today, and regardless what you think of gay marriage, that is a good thing.

[matt]

just as reliable as the 8:15 to Penn Station, the WaPo comes out with this one on "Act of Valor". LUN

Is there any wonder whatsoever that much of America is growing to despise the elite even more?

[Jane]

The decision was written by a gay judge living in a long term relationship.No, no conflict of interest whatsoever.

There should not have been a conflict of interest. I'd like to think a gay conservative would have ruled according to the law not sexual preference. I certainly could rule against a woman if I was a judge.

The Judge should be impeached. Otherwise the other side could say that a straight judge that rules the other way also has a conflict of interest.

[narciso]

He was a protege of Chomsky, Captain, that much stupid is just axiomatic,

[Ben Franklin]

Santorum; Purple Pimpernel?

http://www.purplestrategies.com/wp-content/uploads/Feb2012Poll_v7.pdf

[Captain Hate]

Staying in the closet because of not wanting to be ostracized is a lot different than fear of being lynched. Basing things on dishonest and overblown arguments is a good way not to be taken seriously. That's a lesson that seems to be lost on the left.

[Jack is Back!]

This is pretty neat. I am watching a live streaming of a 10:30 prayer service at St. Pat's for Dolan's elevation to Cardinal. Camera just panned part of the congregation which includes Andy Cuomo standing next to Chuckles Schumer who is standing next to Bloomie. Tells you a little bit about the pull a Timothy Cardinal Dolan is perceived to have.

Perception is Reality:)

[sbw]

My son joined the crew of the yacht used in Act of Valor just after the scenes had been filmed. The yacht crew spoke very positively of the filming.

[narciso]

Maybe you should put a little attention to this TM,

http://middletownpress.com/articles/2012/02/24/news/doc4f47b3b59c097745216345.txt

[Gmax]

Being gay doesn't diminish the desire for marriage or family.

It most certainly does. I said gay, which to make sure we are communicating, means to me and used to mean generally male homosexual as opposed to lesbian or female homosexual.

There is a definite reason why they traced the beginning of the AIDS epidemic to gay bath houses in the Castro.

Now dont put words in my mouth. I did not say there are no gay longterm relationships. But those are not the norm and if you are contending differently then go look up the stats.

[Mustang0302]

Lynching?

YGBSM.

[MarkO]

"California is now requiring its judges to reveal their sexual orientation."

I read that to mean that even the Cal Bar recognized it was a conflict of interest that should have been disclosed. But, if sexual orientation is an issue for recusal, where does that go? Would a judge have to disclose that despite being married, he/she likes to sleep around? Threesomes? Dogs and cats living together? Wise Latinas and Latinos?

[matt]

The 9th is the court with the greatest number and percentage of cases overturned by the Supreme Court. It is a disgrace in many ways to the very concept of justice.

I was illustrating what should have been a basic reason for the recusal of a judge. He had skin (if you'll excuse the pun) in the game.

[boris]

IMO it is inconsistent to say on one hand that upgrading same sex civil unions to the term "marriage" is a significant benefit in "status and human dignity" ... but on the other hand changing the meaning of "marriage" away from its traditional purpose (the institution for producing children who are raised by their own parents) takes nothing from opposite sex unions and their "status and human dignity". If some school system were to adopt a pass/fail grading system the straight A students would certainly lose their special status. To avoid that appearance of loss the system might instead institute "anyone who passes gets an A". That way the straight A students still get their straight A grades and have nothing to complain about.

That's dishonest and irrational in a postmodernist fairness sort of way.

Regardless of how it would be done the proper term for a state institution offered to opposite sex and same sex couples is "civil union". At least it's accurate to say traditional marriage is a civil union. Let the state be honest about what it is doing to the status of traditional couples.

[Ignatz]

--Would it be a conflict in your mind, matt, if the judge were homosexual[heterosexual]?--

That's a good question that I think is too routinely dismissed.
Should a conflict of interest extend to an issue a person would benefit from directly and not just individually?
Seems to me a pretty good case could be made that society would be better served were the conflict of interest disqualification expanded.
Obviously conflicts cannot be eliminated but restricting them solely to a direct pecuniary interest or having represented one side or another on an issue seems less than ideal to me.
Not sure what the solution is but I do believe there is a problem and not a small one.

[Clarice]

Both discussions remind me of something that ties both together. Some years ago a friend of mine (a liberal), honest person was a judge presiding over a difficult child custody case. The mother had peculiar habits--like never eating with her children, attending events with them or really relating to them--calling her office repeatedly during their birthday parties, for example-- and the father was an unpublished (certainly unpublishable) "writer" who handled a lot of the child care albeit poorly. As soon as I read the facts I knew that the woman was the daughter of Holocaust survivors--the kind who obviously did not get the psychological help they needed and who were unable to help their child to relate to others on any sort of intimate basis.

In any event, reviewing all the facts before her, she awarded principal custody to the father and requiring the wife to pay child support and alimony. Her former friends who headed up a variety of "feminist" groups attacked her viciously saying she was against working mothers. It was such unmitigated, nasty horse pucky, I wrote my friend a personal note saying I knew she had done her best to honestly resolve a very difficult matter . She died not long after but I know I was the only friend of hers who valued her work and supported her.

[Ignatz]

--I read that to mean that even the Cal Bar recognized it was a conflict of interest that should have been disclosed.--

Mark, Mark, poor naive Mark.
This is California baby. It is to ensure that we have an over representation of gays and to hound those who are not.
If it is for the purposes of disqualification based on "orientation" it will only be applied to heteros.
Get with the prog program, dude.

[Gmax]

So if both heterosexual and homosexual judges are disqualified there is no tribunal to hear the case? In this situation, I can live with that outcome!

[Captain Hate]

Any time I read about a position being "against working women" I conclude that it's not based on anything concrete and is driven strictly by emotion.

[Clarice]

Yes, Iggy. GMax--what about transgendered judges or better yet hermaphrodites?

[Jane]

Staying in the closet because of not wanting to be ostracized is a lot different than fear of being lynched.

Capn'

You don't really know what you are talking about. It was pretty dangerous to be a gay man 40 years ago. I think we can both agree that the change in that is a very good thing.

[boris]

"Would it be a conflict if the judge were heterosexual?"

Well Clarice, according to my 10:47 postmodernist fairness argument the homosexual has human diginity to gain but the heterosexual has nothing to gain or lose either way ... so no reason to recuse.

[Gmax]

Honestly, I have been on this Earth more than 40 years and I know of no lynchings in that time, even if its not limited to gay men. BS.

[Gmax]

Eunuchs Clarice. How could I have overlooked that!

[Extraneus]

The decision was written by a gay judge living in a long term relationship.No, no conflict of interest whatsoever. Such is justice in the litigate to legislate society we have become.

And now, California requires all judges to disclose their sexual orientation, so as to be able to assure that gays are "adequately" represented on the bench.

[Clarice]

Yes, Capt. What those people meant was that "fairness" required that the mother always got custody. I simplified the facts of a very complicated matter, but it was clear the mother needed psychological help and the judge left open the possibility of her get more custodial time with her children when and if she was better able to nurture them.

They were also p . o'd that the woman who had supported the family when they lived together was ordered to pay child and spousal support when they divorced, forgetting I'm sure that so much of the law the judge was applying was stuff they had promoted.

[Mustang0302]

1972? Dangerous?

[Clarice]

***"f her get more getTING..."*

I apologize for all the typos this morning.

[Extraneus]

Ooops. Forgot to refresh.

[Captain Hate]

You don't really know what you are talking about

Really? Please point out anything I said which is factually wrong.

[Gmax]

I got to have an answer to this burning question:

One ended up in the funny farm

She transfered to Pitzer?

[sbw]

I see there is not much of substance to discuss this morning.

Certainly is a blustery day here.

[Captain Hate]

Clarice, I'm sure your friend used the wisdom of Solomon in the case. Having equal rights can be painful if you're on the wrong side of a judgement. Funny how that side of the sword wasn't perceived.

[Captain Hate]

Mustang, got any musical recs for me?

[Jane]

Honestly, I have been on this Earth more than 40 years and I know of no lynchings in that time, even if its not limited to gay men.

Sure you do. The most famous was the kid out west who got tied to a post and killed and then they named a law after him. I think that was in the '90's. (I suppose I could spend the day trying to find out his name but I think most people recall that incident. ) And at the moment some college kid is being tried for outing his roommate who committed suicide. Not a lynching but the gay ended up dead for being gay. Certainly you are not suggesting their has never been a ramification for being gay. And certainly you are not in support of those ramifications.

Listen I don't care. You can go through life thinking all has been peachy for those horrid gays who are so mean to encroach on marriage. But a whole lot of gays are just like you. They are conservative, believe in the rule of law, and think that if they get to be for gay marriage, you get to be against it. I only hope that if someone finally rules to call gay marriage "kaddilehopper" people will get over demonizing gays because it is stupid.

[Danube of Thought]

June 5, 2010:

NEWBERRY, S.C., June 5 (UPI) -- A white man has been charged with killing a black man and then dragging his body nearly 10 miles behind a truck in Newberry County, S.C., authorities said.

Gregory Collins, was arrested and charged with murder in the death of Anthony Hill, 30, who worked with Collins at the Louis Rich turkey processing plant in Newberry, county Sheriff Lee Foster said.

Hill's nearly nude body was found Wednesday with a single gunshot to the head and a rope around his neck and upper torso. Authorities followed a trail of blood and human tissue from the body to a trailer park where Collins lived nearly 10 miles away, Foster said Friday.

[centralcal]

Okay, I live in California where things are quite a bit different than in other states, but I have to challenge the gays being lynched 40 years ago assertion.

In my 20's - gays and lesbians - were very much "out" and about, even in the small farm community I lived in. One successful small business (a bicycle shop) was run by two older lesbians. Everyone knew them and liked them. If you were shopping for the latest bike for your kid or your bike needed repair you went to them. This is but one example.

My homosexual neighbors in this small community were not ostracized or treated badly, unless, of course there was some other mitigating circumstance or scandal that involved them (just as in the heterosexual community).

[Jane]

Matthew Shepard

[boris]

Three women identified by their lawyers as lesbians were arraigned yesterday on a hate crime charge for allegedly beating a gay man at the Forest Hills T station in an unusual case that experts say exposes the law’s flawed logic.

[Ignatz]

--Yes, Iggy. GMax--what about transgendered judges or better yet hermaphrodites?--

I suspect a hermaphrodite or tranny judge would be perennially cutting the baby in half.
I propose from here on out all judges be eunuchs of profoundly mixed race and, most importantly, consult me before rendering a decision.

[Gmax]

Neither of your proffered examples is a lynching and neither of them goes back even half of 40 years either.

So I think you cant support your lynching statment, and you really should take back the rest of your putting words in my mouth. Its out of character for you, and if the shoe was on the other foot you most definitely would not appreciate it.

Thanks

[Captain Hate]

Serial killers are just like you; except they're not.

[Ignatz]

--Okay, I live in California where things are quite a bit different than in other states, but I have to challenge the gays being lynched 40 years ago assertion.--

In the AF in the early eighties we had a team of lesbians that were very well like and respected and were quite open about their relationship. They did their jobs well and didn't rub anyone's face in it [sorry] so nobody cared.

[Ignatz]

Your Matthew Shepherd link didn't go anywhere Jane.

[Jane]

You don't think Matthew Shephard was lynched GMAX?

Shortly after midnight on October 6, 1998, Shepard met Aaron McKinney and Russell Henderson for the first time at the Fireside Lounge in Laramie, Wyoming.[7] It was decided that McKinney and Henderson would give Shepard a ride home.[8] McKinney and Henderson subsequently drove the car to a remote, rural area and proceeded to rob, pistol-whip, and torture Shepard, tying him to a fence and leaving him to die. According to their court testimony, McKinney and Henderson also discovered his address and intended to steal from his home. Still tied to the fence, Shepard, who was still alive but in a coma, was discovered 18 hours later by Aaron Kreifels, a cyclist who initially mistook Shepard for a scarecrow.[9]

Shepard had suffered fractures to the back of his head and in front of his right ear. He experienced severe brain-stem damage, which affected his body's ability to regulate heart rate, body temperature, and other vital functions. There also were about a dozen small lacerations around his head, face, and neck. His injuries were deemed too severe for doctors to operate. Shepard never regained consciousness and remained on full life support. While he lay in intensive care, candlelight vigils were held by the people of Laramie.[10]

Shepard was pronounced dead at 12:53 a.m. on October 12, 1998, at Poudre Valley Hospital, in Fort Collins, Colorado.[11][12][13][14]

How would you define lynching?

[Jane]

I'm not sure what words I put in your mouth GMAX, but if I did so in error I apologize. I certainly don't care if people are against gay marriage, but the overall disdain for gays that appears here on occasion really bugs me as very counterproductive. You can respect their opinion even if you don't share it.

[boris]

IIRC one of the Shephard killers had been in a homosexual relationship. Also it does not fit in with the claim that 40 years ago being gay was more dangerous.

[Gmax]

Quite differently that you. Humans have been killing each other since Cain and Able. A lynching, which is quite strident rhetoric because of its use by the Klan after the Civil War is generally defined as an execution by hanging by a mob taking justice in their own hands.

Gays were most definitely not seized by a mob of enraged citizens and hung from the nearest tree to the general support and approval of all in witness. Sorry but try again.

[Ignatz]

--Neither of your proffered examples is a lynching and neither of them goes back even half of 40 years either.--

I'd have to say Shepard certainly qualifies as a "lynching" whether he was hanged or not. Seems like we had this discussion here some time back after Jeffrey Lord made a similar claim at AmSpec about some other murder.
And since it happened less than forty years ago doesn't that strengthen Jane's argument not weaken it?

[Ben Franklin]

http://www.stuff.co.nz/auckland/local-news/6479732/Move-to-put-Dotcom-back-behind-bars

"The Crown Prosecution, representing the US Government, is expected to push for Dotcom to return to jail."

Is New Zealand a sovereign Nation? Do they know it? Does the US care?

[Jane]

Okay boris, so no issues. The gays have never suffered for being gay and have always been treated with the utmost respect and deference. I get it. You win.

[Gmax]

No a lynching requires a mob of citizens, not one or two acting surreptiously. Its mob justice, not just henious murder.

[Danube of Thought]

neither of them goes back even half of 40 years either

Which disproves your suggestion, namely that there had been no lynchings in your 40+ years on earth. Lynchings that occurred more than 40 years ago would be irrelevant to your claim.

[Clarice]

Maybe they weren't lynched and Jane's statement a bit overblown, but they were certainly maltreated with the abusers rarely being punished and the cops often were the perps. In fact, if you recall sodomy was a crime almost everywhere and the military could court martial those who engaged in it while in uniform.
Even habituating a gay bar could get you arrested--here's wiki on the stonewall riots.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stonewall_riots