Training Them To Shoot, But Not At Us!

The Times notes the tension in Afghanistan between our strategy of training Afghan security forces while ducking incoming fire from those same forces:

American officials described a growing concern, even at the highest levels of the Obama administration and Pentagon, about the challenges of pulling off a troop withdrawal in Afghanistan that hinges on the close mentoring and training of army and police forces.

Despite an American-led training effort that has spanned years and cost tens of billions of dollars, the Afghan security forces are still widely seen as riddled with dangerously unreliable soldiers and police officers. The distrust has only deepened as a pattern of attacks by Afghan security forces on American and NATO service members, beginning years ago, has drastically worsened over the past few days. A grenade attack on Sunday, apparently by a protester, wounded at least six American soldiers.

Nearly a week of violent unrest after American personnel threw Korans into a pit of burning trash has brought into sharp relief the growing American and Afghan frustration — and, at times, open hostility — and the risks of a strategy that calls for American soldiers and civilians to work closely with Afghans.

Earlier Times coverage here, and on the reaction of the French last January.

Bush and our allies went into Afghanistan with a light footprint to avoid emulating the Soviet experience and antagonizing the locals, with dubious results.  Obama has tripled our troop commitment, with dubious results.  Osama is dead, let's move out and move on.

Comments

[Captain Hate]

Killing Osama was never the strategic goal no matter what the reaction to that happening was.

[Not Sara]

TM, I agree. Get out.

[Not Sara]

Also, I cannot get over my feeling that almost all of the people in that country are living in the 7th century. Not PC to say, but true.

[clarice feldman]

Maybe we ought to create a DMZ where all those who want freedom and democracy have a month to move and then carpet bag the rest. For the children.

[Not Sara]

Well, Clarice, I think you are writing "tongue in cheek," but I agree.

[lyle]

Killing Osama was never the strategic goal no matter what the reaction to that happening was.

Yep, it was of no strategic use. So expect it to be brought up daily starting in about three months.

[lyle]

carpet bag the rest

Great idea, C. Let's nominate Hillary as Afghan prez.

[clarice feldman]

I don't think Media Matters is going to last much longer.

Fox--
Media Matters chief David Brock paid a former domestic partner $850,000 after being threatened with damaging information involving the organization’s donors and the IRS – a deal that Brock later characterized as a blackmail payment, according to legal documents obtained by FoxNews.com. In an acrimonious lawsuit settled at the end of last year, Brock accused William Grey of making repeated threats to expose him to the "scorn or ridicule of his employees, donors and the press in demanding money and property." Brock claimed in legal papers that he sold a Rehoboth Beach, Del., home he once shared with Grey in...

[lyle]

Hell hath no fury like a gay leftist scorned.

[Extraneus]

At one point, we had significant forces on two borders of Iran. If we vacate Afghanistan, we'll have none on either. Right before Iran gets a nuke.

History might not be kind to our strategic thinking if we slink out of Afghanistan over a few Korans. Whatever we do, we should try to maintain air power.

[Captain Hate]

Dear God, a home in Rehobeth; it's like a poorly written mockumentary.

[Appalled]

If Al Qaeda retaking a place in Afghanistan is still a threat -- then maybe we consider staying. Is the Taliban likely to take it all back again? Or will something else happen?

If circumstances (including Osama's demise and the improvements in drone warfare) make Al Q's resurgence unlikely, it is time to say goodbye.

[Captain Hate]

Is this sooper dooper software acting weird to any of you?

[Extraneus]

Grey threatened to go public about Brock and Media Matters' finances after he accused Brock in a civil suit filed in Washington of taking $170,000 in possessions, including an $8,000 Louis Vuitton suit bag, paintings, a rug, a chandelier, a painted bust of a Roman soldier and a pair of carved wooden chairs upholstered with purple fabric. Those possessions were displayed in the Washington townhouse where the couple entertained liberal movers and shakers in happier times.

[narciso]

I thought it was just moi, like I mentioned in the previous thread, Karzai is really getting on my nerves,

[Danube of Thought]

Poste this on the previous thread:

"I still don't understand why we give a damn about who rules Afghanistan, provided only that they are not harboring terrorist training facilities. I suspect there will soon be a very strong sentiment in favor of getting the hell out of there.

"And maybe nailing Hamid Karzai on the way out."

[Extraneus]

.

[NK]

TomM-- is absolutely right here. The Left was so flippin' ignorant about this for the last 10 years. The strategic point of AfPak Theater ws to prevent the Taliban and AQ from using AfPak as a secure base of operations from which to launch mass terrorism as they did 1993-2001. That's it. That mission was accomplished by January 2002-- after that the NATO role was being cops on the ground to prevent an AQ comeback. Bush-Rumsfeld wisely limited the footprint and avoided wholesale
"Nations Building" in AfPak because Afhanistan has never been a unified nation, its a series of ethnic and geographic tribes. Bush was right to understand AfPak would never be switzerland in our lifetimes -- is recognizing that reality a 'dubious result'? The real strategic issue was Iraq-- Sadaam gave nationstate aid to AQ, and the Iraq-Iranian conflict and the Iraq conflict with the Saudis and Gulf States was a long-term threat to stability. So throwing Sadaam out and having a civil Iraq government that stayed neutral in regional affairs was a vital US interest. That primary mission was accomplihed in May 2003 with the eviction of the Baathist gov't, that strategic goal was further advanced in early 2008 with the defeat of AQ in Iraq, and the Fall 2008 US/IRAQ troop "Status of Forces" basing agreement basically made the US/Iraq relationship eqivalent to US agreements in Okinawa, Korean DMZ, Germany etc. And 'Bam?? -- he screwed up BOTH. He's engaged in stupid wholesale "Nations Building" in Afghanistan where there is no nation, and an ill-timed political pull out in Iraq -- a stupid ego driven pullout which threatens vital US interests (see Jimmy Carter 1979). I still find it hard to believe that this asshat Obama puts his own ego above US national interests. The man is consistent-- consistently stupid. The only thing he did get right in AfPak was continuing and expanding Bush's drone strikes and surveilance. I give him credit for that, but he got everything else wrong there.

[Not Sara]

Well, Appalled, the Taliban will take back Afghanistan--Obama et al are in the process of putting together peace talks with them. Does anyone honestly think that the Taliban is for peace? Obama's foreign policy makes one want to cry--it is so dreadful.

[Not Sara]

NK, Well said. You are exactly right.

[clarice feldman]

Link to Brock story
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/02/27/media-matters-boss-paid-former-partner-850g-blackmail-settlement/

[Ignatz]

--carpet bag the rest--

Carpet bag or carpet bomb?

[clarice feldman]

bags filled with bombs?

[Chubby]

((Training Them To Shoot, But Not At Us!))

and from the American troops' point of view, "Training us to shoot, but not at them" ?

[narciso]

Yes one takes out Bin Laden, bur delivers all of North Africa, except Algeria, to the Salafi.

[Ignatz]

--I still don't understand why we give a damn about who rules Afghanistan, provided only that they are not harboring terrorist training facilities. I suspect there will soon be a very strong sentiment in favor of getting the hell out of there.--

I've never heard a convincing argument that endless occupation, whether with "nation building" or without is cheaper, preferable to or as effective as the "rubble makes no trouble" strategy.

[Not Sara]

That's right, Ignatz. Just look back to World War II.

[Not Sara]

I have never heard it put quite like that--"rubble makes no trouble."

[clarice feldman]

More tsuris for Brock and MM:

" Media Matters for America took a big hit to its credibility when Tucker Carlson and the Daily Caller ran a multiple-installment exposé of the political non-profit, which laid bare the group’s hypocrisy on gun control and, more problematically, their close coordination with the Obama White House. MMFA has managed to find itself in another bruising political battle, this time with Alan Dershowitz, a man normally inclined to support the Left. Dershowitz has pledged to personally make Media Matters an issue in the election by actively campaigning against anyone supporting the group:

Harvard Law Professor Alan Dershowitz, a leading Democratic lawyer who takes a hawkish line on Israel, has declared a personal war on the liberal group Media Matters, which has branched out into sharp criticism of Israel.

“Not only will [the Media Matters controversy] be an election matter, I will personally make it an election matter,” Dershowitz, a professor at Harvard Law School, told WABC’s Aaron Klein today.

Dershowitz has been sharply criticizing Media Matters for weeks, but suggested for the first time today he intends to drive the controversy into the political conversation.

“I don’t know whether President Obama has any idea that Media Matters has turned the corner against Israel in this way,” he said. “I can tell you this, he will know very shortly because I am beginning a serious campaign on this issue and I will not let it drop until and unless [writer and activist MJ] Rosenberg is fired from Media Matters, or Media Matters changes its policy or the White House disassociates itself from Media Matters.”

True to his word, Dershowitz takes his personal battle to the pages of the New York Daily News today, and minces no words:"
http://hotair.com/archives/2012/02/27/dershowitz-declares-war-on-media-matters/

[Gus]

Honestly, the David Brock story is priceless. The poor homo apparently brought a Louis Vuitton suit bag to a gun fight.
As for Afghanistan, WHAT DOES ANYONE EXPECT from Obama or Rodham. Which one of them has any experience in DIPLOMACY??

[clarice feldman]

So far two legs of the Obama stool have been weakened--ACORN and now MM. And there are months left..

[NK]

Ig-- 'nation building ' can work, i.e Germany, Japan, hell even Iraq before 'Bam botched it. But Afghanistan?, it is not a single nation culturally, and Karzai thinks he's the new Mullah Omar, so 'Bam was doomed to failure in fighting what he moronically called the 'Right War'. Epic fail.

[clarice feldman]

Allen West (the best):
Koran burning incident & the aftermath:
"I want to extend my sincere condolences to the families of the Army Colonel and Major who were killed by Afghanistan security forces over this “burning Koran” episode. If we had resolute leadership, including in the White House, we would have explained that these Islamic terrorist enemy combatants being detained at the Parwan facilit...y had used the Koran to write jihadist messages to pass to others. In doing so, they violated their own cultural practice and defiled the Koran. Furthermore, they turned the Koran into contraband. Therefore, Islamic cultural practice and Parwan detention facility procedures support burning the “contraband.” Instead here we go again, offering apology after apology and promising to “hold those responsible accountable.” Responsible for what? When tolerance becomes a one-way street it leads to cultural suicide. This time it immediately led to the deaths of two American Warriors. America is awaiting the apology from President Hamid Karzai."

[NK]

Clarice-- more importantly, what is 'Bam gonna say for 5 months? I killed Osama!, and the Repubs want your private parts! and prosperity is just around the corner! That's it? good luck with that Barry.

[Jim Rhoads a/k/a vnjagvet]

US Troop strength in Afghanistan by fiscal year:

FY2002 5,200
FY2003 10,400
FY2004 15,200
FY2005 19,100
FY2006 20,400
FY2007 23,700
FY2008 30,100
FY2009 50,700
FY2010 63,500
FY2011 63,500
FY2012 63,500

FY 2008 had one quarter under W, the other three under El Jefe the Great, so the increase that year is probably wholly attributable to El Jefe. I think it is fair to say the increased troop has yielded little return on investment. So much for El Jefe's "real war" strategy. Not much news coverage on that miscalculation, is there?

[Extraneus]

Afghan Revolt Threatens Obama Election Strategy

"You will soon lose your caste, as ere long you will have to bite cartridges covered with the fat of pigs and cows.”

-- Retort by a low-caste Indian when refused a drink of water by a high-caste native soldier in the British army, according to J.A.B. Palmer’s “The Mutiny Outbreak at Meerut in 1857.” Rumors about animal grease used in new cartridges for the native soldiers sparked a yearlong rebellion across the nation that ended with as many as 100,000 mutinous troops killed.

[NK]

Clarice-- what Col west is trying to insert reason into the discussion with the Jihadis? It's forever the 8th century for the Jihadis, Of course this isn't Col West's fault and he is absolutely right to say, we do what is just in our Western/American canon-- and not be apologetic for it.

[clarice feldman]

Jim , remember JFK, the Viet Nam hero, saying "over there"? All the Dems did. The meme was that Bush erred in taking the war to Iraq when we should have been in Afghanistan. It was idiotic when they said it and has proven to be a disaster. (Like everything else President Shuck and Jive has done.)

[NK]

Jim R-- that's not quite right FY 2009, was 1 qtr Bush, 3 qtrs 'Bam -- all 4 quarters of FY 2008 were Bush. Bush definitely started escalating in early 2008 after the Surge succeeded in Iraq. The AfPak surge was needed to push back AQ gains.

[Captain Hate]

Maybe they thought with the low ratings nobody would notice: http://cnnpressroom.blogs.cnn.com/2012/02/27/majority-whip-sen-durbin-gop-candidates-at-war-with-islam/

[NK]

JimR-- I do agree with your conclusion-- see my 1:40 post.

[clarice feldman]

A prediction I do not see coming true:

TaxLaw Prof--

Cloud & Shepherd: Law Deans May Go to Jail for Submitting False Data to U.S. News

Morgan Cloud (Emory) & George B. Shepherd (Emory), Law Deans In Jail:

A most unlikely collection of suspects -- law schools, their deans, U.S. News & World Report and its employees -- may have committed felonies by publishing false information as part of U.S. News' ranking of law schools. The possible federal felonies include mail and wire fraud, conspiracy, racketeering, and making false statements. Employees of law schools and U.S. News who committed these crimes can be punished as individuals, and under federal law the schools and U.S. News would likely be criminally liable for their agents' crimes.

Some law schools and their deans submitted false information about the schools' expenditures and their students' undergraduate grades and LSAT scores. Others submitted information that may have been literally true but was misleading. Examples include misleading statistics about recent graduates' employment rates and students' undergraduate grades and LSAT scores.

U.S. News itself may have committed mail and wire fraud. It has republished, and sold for profit, data submitted by law schools without verifying the data's accuracy, despite being aware that at least some schools were submitting false and misleading data. U.S. News refused to correct incorrect data and rankings errors and continued to sell that information even after individual schools confessed that they had submitted false information. In addition, U.S. News marketed its surveys and rankings as valid although they were riddled with fundamental methodological errors.

[Ben Franklin]

"TM, I agree. Get out."

We did that, TWICE, already. I'm sure you'll be carping about why Obama got us out, and chomping at the Ledeen bit, to go back in, but only after the WH changes hands to your approval.

[NK]

Dana- when did US forces leave AfPak -- "twice"? I'll take the rest of your comment that the entire Dem Party establishment 'Right War' stuff 2003-2008 was a bunch of BS, or at best, sincere but stupid.

[Ben Franklin]

" I think it is fair to say the increased troop has yielded little return on investment. So much for El Jefe's "real war" strategy. Not much news coverage on that miscalculation, is there?'

Ever considered the cost of Iraq? What has been our ROI on that venture capital? If we'd spend that money ($trillion?) mayhaps
the horse would have been stopped at the barn door, and you would have to find another brick-bat for Obama. You know, something that is less lethal.

[narciso]

Ah yes, the idiot missing his village, pipes up again, the last time he went on such a long
plank, he was crying crocodile tears for th fellow who wanted to turn the Capitol into a funeral pyre, Mohammed Al Quahtani,

[Sue]

mayhaps the horse would have been stopped at the barn door, and you would have to find another brick-bat for Obama.

And mayhaps it wouldn't have.

[Appalled]

Query -- David Brock's organization had indicated the private lives of various Fox execs was fair game.

Is this Fox story payback for that? (Note. Just because a story is payback doesn't mean it isn't also legit.)

[narciso]

the best of AQ's operators, perished in the sands of Anbar, hence we end up with the B&C
team like Abdulmutallab, Shahzad, et al,

[Captain Hate]

Tammy Bruce has torpedoed the HMS Pantsuit for her Tunisia performance.

[Ben Franklin]

"Dana- when did US forces leave AfPak"

'Abandoned' is more accurate than 'leave'.

Pulled the rug out from Mujihadeen in the 80's.

Bush abandoned it for Iraq debacle.

BTW; What was our ROI, as a Nation, from that Venture Capital?

[Extraneus]

Is this Fox story payback for that?

I hope so.

[Captain Hate]

Appalled, when a news org finds out about misusing funds they're really compelled to pursue it, payback or not. If pursuing the story in the first place was "payback" I'm not sure it really matters.

[Ignatz]

--Ig-- 'nation building ' can work, i.e Germany, Japan, hell even Iraq before 'Bam botched it. But Afghanistan?, it is not a single nation culturally, and Karzai thinks he's the new Mullah Omar, so 'Bam was doomed to failure in fighting what he moronically called the 'Right War'. Epic fail.--

Germany and Japan were not Islamic and they engaged in largely conventional warfare and their war making capabilities were utterly destroyed, something that does not occur in terrorist and guerrilla wars.

Iraq is most certainly not a single nation culturally either and its religious divisions may be even more intractable than Afghanistan's. I have no confidence whatsoever that anyone of either party could keep a lid on the corrupt hodge podge of crazy tribes and sects that make up Iraq without a substantial and permanent presence, so why try?

[Not Sara]

Afghanistan is a corrupt country run by corrupt politicians. So many millions of dollars have been spent (and taken by officials illegally), that I still say get our wonderful troops out (not because of the Koran burning, but because they are being killed by people who are supposedly "working with them.") So, I still agree with Clarice--get the people who support democracy out and then carpet bag-bomb and also up the use of drones--before we carpet bomb. IF a Republican manages to win, I will not support any more nation building. And, I do remember that George W. Bush was "big" on nation-building.

[narciso]

None of those countries are, Syria overlaps with Kurds, Druze, Anbar tribesman, Afghanistan is Pashtun in the South, Uzbek in the North, Baloch to the West

[Extraneus]

Iran's Christian pastor alive, execution looming

[NK]

Iraq ROI?-- 1. a nation state with a strong military capability (formerly under Sadaam) no longer can or does aid and abet AQ terrorism-- indeed the major national interest of Iraq is anti-AQ; 2. The Saudis and Gulf states are free of the Sadaam threat so their can focus is on economic development, rather than defense against Sadaam -- have you noticed Kuwaiti, Dubai, UAE and Qatari eco development during the last 8 years (or their buying Obama's T Bond debt during the past 3 years?); 3. Iraqi democracy led to Syria out of Lebanon, the Arab Spring and the 2009 Iranian Revolt against the Mullahs-- course 'Bam mishandled Iran and the Arab Spring, but Iraq made those possible; 4. Finally, the Status of Forces agreement allowed the US strategic room to maneuver against the Mullahs when the inevitable showdown occurred in the Gulf-- they included overflights, aircraft basing and emergency landing. Of course 'Bam fouled that up because his ego is bigger than America's interest. In any event dana you completely mistate the issue. You know back in the 1860s during reconstruction there was alot of Northern regret over the cost of total war against the South, in the 1920s regret over the cost of WWI caused full scale US isolationism (Repubs and Southern Dems), and after WWII after our allies USSR and China became Cold War enemies and the cost of the Marshall Plan, there was alot of regret over the cost of the war. War is never fought for ROI Dana, it's fought only for vital national interests and the US had many vital interests in evicting the Baathist thugs.

[Ben Franklin]

"Germany and Japan were not Islamic and they engaged in largely conventional warfare"

I note the weasel-word, 'largely'.

Germany had heavy water, and the Manhattan Project was on a fast track, because of their technological prowess. Kinda' like Iran, from neocon perspective.

Japan was prepared for mass suicide attacks (civilian) because of their religious extremism.

[Gus]

Question for the moron who calls himself BEN FRANKLIN.

How has Obama fared in Afghanistan?? The REAL WAR??
How's that worked out for him chump??

[Extraneus]

As it opens across the country, Act of Valor is taking heat as a recruitment film for special operations forces. After all, as the rest of the Pentagon faces personnel cuts, special operations forces is set to expand. And Adm. William McRaven, commander of U.S. Special Operations Command, is quoted by the AP saying the film "initially started as a recruiting film so we could help recruit minorities into the teams."

Yet the film is no Top Gun, bursting with PG violence and ending with the hero landing triumphant on a carrier deck. In Act of Valor, the SEALs vanquish their foes but pay a steep price. "We want a young man watching this film to see that there is a lot of sacrifice involved for you and your family when you choose this," Waugh says. "That's part of a responsible message."

[hit and run]

Instalanche for sbw,btw...

[NK]

Ig-- if you have read any of the indy journalists who have been to both Iraq and AfPak (michael Yon, Chris Hitchens) Iraqis have a clear sense of national identity, whereas Afghans don't.

Dana-- now you're having a laugh. The Mujah won in 1989, the Soviets left-- that was the only US national interest-- Soviets out. So the US did not give the Mujah a Marshall Plan to start an AfPak Caliphate? that's abandoning AfPak?-- that's just Nutz. Bush/Rumsfeld, the vital US interest was secured in Jan 2002, and in the interests of "multilateralism" the mission of being AfPak cops was handed over to NATO, principally the Brits. They had done that sort of work in the Balkans, and the Brits have a long history in military peacekeeping. OK NATO failed the mission and AQ made a comeback 2004-2007. The US surged starting in 2008, and we are back to peacekeeping. That's abandoning? Again you're having a laugh.

[Ben Franklin]

NK;

1) Strong alliance with Iran, and with that, military capability

2.) Saddam, gone---that's good

3.) Wrong--Tunisian vendor self-immolating, started the Arab Spring, which Iran opposes (see Syria)

4.) Permanent (?) bases in the ME (which we had, already)
Questionable how long Iraqis will let us use those we built.

So; Saddam's gone is about it. So if "Iraq war paying for itself" means getting Saddam, then you're onto something.

[NK]

Dana-- you cite Germany and Japan? Those nation building examples justified evicting the Baathist thugs, per the Bush Doctrine. In all three cases, dictatorial regimes hijacked the established civil societies and perverted the cultures. remove the regimes, and the nations can be rebuilt with civil societies. You have just validated the Bush Doctrine.

[Ben Franklin]

"You have just validated the Bush Doctrine."

Iraq didn't attack US or it's Allies. BOOOOOOOOSH Doctrine.

[Frau Leherin a.D.]

From the NYT article about the lack of "minorities" (too many Asians!)at prestigious Stuyvesant High, we hear about a studious black student newly arrived from Jamaica in 2007:
"Her mother, Annmarie Miller, a nursing assistant at a hospital in the Bronx, recalled a cousin’s reaction when she mentioned Rudi’s pick: “You have to be Chinese or Indian to get in there.” A co-worker, also black, “said the exam is built to exclude blacks because it’s heavy on math, and black people can’t do math,” Mrs. Miller said. (my bold)
LUN

Racist! It's a good thing the co-worker did not mention swimming ability.

[NK]

Dana-- we'll disagree about Iraq, 1-4. But the bottom line is that the Left-wing parrot lines of "Bush-Hitler" and "no blood for oil" was all nonsense. Evicting the baathists and building an Iraqi civil society served vital US interests. Bush was right and succeeded- 'Bam has squandered that success to a degree, so now we'll have to covertly overfly Iraq without a Status of Forces agreement because the Iraqis won't publicly take sides against a fellow Muslim nation-- with the SOF the Iraqis had political cover to say, we have to honor agreements. When the crap hits the fan in the Gulf, 'Bam will violate Iraqi airspace, but it's moronic.

[Danube of Thought]

Where the reptilian Brock is concerned, I'll settle for nothing short of a Weinerian outcome: utter disgrace, removal from the public scene.

[Gus]

So how is the REAL WAR working out Ben??

[NK]

Dana-- Sadaam violated the 1991 cease fire on a daily basis shooting at US overflights in the no-fly zone he agreed to, sadaam aided and abetted AQ, on and on-- you've got to stop making up a fiction that violates actual history.

[narciso]

Well he missed our discussion re In Search of Klingsor, of Johannes Stark, and his counterproductive Aryan physics, that luckily
for us, drove out a generation of Germany's
best and brightest,

Now one might argue that aiding Hekmatyar, and Khalis and Abdul Sayyaf, rather than Massoud and co, was a strategic mistake,

[Ben Franklin]

"building an Iraqi civil society served vital US interests. "

Name a couple of Tangible interests......

[pagar]

"repeated threats to expose him to the "scorn or ridicule of his employees, donors and the press in demanding money and property."

I would think that scorn and ridicule would be a normal part of life for a person who elected to live as a leftist. Isn't demanding money and property what leftists do all the time. Well,except for when they are killing or urging others to kill inconvenient children.

[NK]

As for US allies?-- Sadaam paid off Palestinians for murdering Israelis (I know you favor that, but it violates US interests), sadaam restated he claims against Kuwati territory-- hello, Dana. These agressive acts were the reasons sanctions were never listed.

[Annoying Old Guy]

I thought there was this thing in USA ally Kuwait that involved Iraq...

- Obama Ex Oficio

[Ignatz]

--Ig-- if you have read any of the indy journalists who have been to both Iraq and AfPak (michael Yon, Chris Hitchens) Iraqis have a clear sense of national identity--

Indeed. The Kurds strongly identify with a Kurd nation, the Sunnis identify with a Sunni one and the Shiites with a Shiite one, hence the problem of which nation is being built and which one the other two are trying to tear down.
Iraq is a stable nation in the same sense dismantling a two piece truck rim with air in the tire is a stable wheel.

[Gus]

Name a single place, where SMART DIPLOMACY has worked.

Just one LIBTARDS.

[lyle]

"...Obama stool..."

No Sullivan baiting!

[NK]

Dana-- tangible interests-- I did list some--
Iraq oil production rehabbed and the proceeds going to civil Iraqi society instead of Sadaam making war on Kuwait and threatening war on the KSA, economic development all through the Gulf states, a large Arab democracy neighboring Iran -- if you don't think that didn't lead to the Iranians taking to the streets in 2009 you're NUTZ, Syria out of Lebanaon, and Assad hopefully out soon-- he's a Baathist as well. Many tangible interests were served by evicting Sadaam-- what's the financial return? I can't say, but the US armd forces are patriots and fight for national interests, they are NOT mercenaries who fight for ROI.

[Dave (in MA)]

Gus, it probably worked on The West Wing, but I'm not sure because I didn't watch it.

[NK]

Ig-- I'm sorry the people who have been to Iraq during the last 8 years disagree with you. Iraq has factions and corruption-- It won't be switzerland in our lifetime, but it is a nation.

[clarice feldman]

Hit, SBW's article is worth the 'lanche, isn't it? Wish he were the editor of one of the papers around ehre.

[Ignatz]

NK,
I'm not saying Iraq is not a nation in some sense of the word.
I'm saying it will be a fractious, unfree, hellhole of a nation and it will be so whether we attempt to build a stable, free nation there or not.

[NK]

Ig-- fair enough. That was Rumsfeld's view. Rumsfeld believed Nation Building ended with evicting the Baathists. Powell convinced Bush that reconstruction was needed, because if you break it, you gotta fix it. Both were right and wrong about the scope of nation building.

[clarice feldman]

If you recall it was "if you break it you must fix it" Powell who got us into Nation building. The original plan was to wipe out Saddam and turn the place over to a series of tribal leaders to work it out. It was a good plan and it's a pity we didn't stick to it. But them Powell and Armitage were too busy trying to make themselves look better than Bush and Cheney to their pals in the media like Andrea to play the hadn Bush was dealing.

[clarice feldman]

***But theN Powell and Armitage were too busy trying to make themselves look better than Bush and Cheney to their pals in the media like Andrea to play the haND Bush was dealing***

[A Casual Observation]

Watch: Blacks and the MSM won't blame Clinton or Obama for the messes which they created in Afganistan and elsewhere in The Middle East. They will blame Bush for getting Obama into that mess. In fact, it is beginning already in advance of the election to shield Obama, to cover his useless ass and to help him to save face.

I predicted three years ago that the chronic screw-ups in the Obama Administration would undo everything that the Bush Administration accomplished in the Middle East and in southeast Asia, and that the MSM would blame Bush.

In fact, blacks and the MSM will blame Bush for all of Obama's screw-ups, both foreign and domestic. Bet on it.

[NK]

Clarice--I'm not sure WHY Powell pushed Bush to become deeper involved in Iraqi reconstruction, but he did. And I think, because of Iraq's strategic importance, reconstructing Iraq became inevitable just like reconstructing Germany and japan to prevent them from becoming Soviet satellites. Bush swallowed his pride and admitted that the optomistic projections that Iraq reconstruction would 'pay for itself' were wrong,and keeping AQ and Iran from capitalizing on Iraq chaos was in US interests. Bush was wrong on the cost of reconstructing post-Baathist Iraq. That's just a fact.

[Ben Franklin]

The Culture, is a challenge. I remember a news story from the 70s wherein 2 female tourists were walking down a sidewalk in Kabul, and they were struck and killed by a cab. The matter went to court, and the judges conclusion...? The women were at fault, 'because they should not have been there". This fatalism is a real head scratcher.

http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2012/02/special-forces-salvage/all/1

"But the mine was apparently meant to be a stand-alone attack. Nothing else exploded. No Taliban fighters opened up with machine guns, AK-47s and rocket-propelled grenades. Only after realizing this did Tom have the luxury of feeling anything. “My first reaction was anger,” Tom says. Anger not only at his would-be attackers, but also at himself. Walking up to the mine “was a JV [junior varsity] move,” he admits.

Tom’s frustration deepened as he tried to get his Afghan police trainees to learn from the mistake. The tall Special Forces officer, in his late 30s with a shaved head and a thick beard, recalls showing the now-harmless explosive device to one of his best Afghan cops, who would later earn a reputation for charging straight into enemy fire.

The American’s aim was to teach the Afghan to fear explosives, and keep a close watch for them in the future. “But he didn’t get it,” Tom recalls. To the cop, avoiding a bomb blast isn’t a function of superior tactics or, failing that, luck born of the device’s long neglect by insurgent fighters. No, the troops’ lucky escape from the fizzling mine “was a direct representation of the intervention of God,” Tom says.

[Gus]

So Ben how has OBAMA'S REAL WAR worked out so far???

You're long on rhetoric short on brains son.

Give me just one TANGIBLE way in which SMART DIPOLMACY has worked dimwit!!

[Danube of Thought]

I believe Bush accomplished two tangible--and important--goals: he deposed the Taliban and Saddam regimes. I believe neither he nor Obama has accomplished much since then, although we can at least say that our post-Saddam operations and presence in Iraq have preserved a measure of stability.

I believe that in the long term Obama's indecisiveness and paralysis in the Middle East and North Africa will be seen as the cause of a terrible foreign policy failure.

[Gus]

Danube, Obama is an idiot. His skill set is handing out protest signs and Union t-shirts. Dim Bulbs like our Ben Franklin poster are rhetorical morons.

[Ignatz]

--I believe Bush accomplished two tangible--and important--goals: he deposed the Taliban and Saddam regimes. I believe neither he nor Obama has accomplished much since then...--

Yep.

[Gus]

What tangible result has OBAMA gotten from his REAL WAR in Afghanistan??

HINT: Bowing, groveling, and Apolgizing do not count.

[Ben Franklin]

Is a rhetorical moron like an oxymoron?

[Ben Franklin]

I wish all you cowardly ignorant men with "real" military experience and knowledge of history would shut the hell up while those of us with imaginary children bravely serving in Iraq are busy trying to rewrite reality.

[A Casual Observation]

Hmmm, why do I suspect (1) that "Ben" already knows that her dogs don't hunt, (2) that she already knows the correct answers to her specious arguments, and (3) that she is just playing with you, so that she can stir up the pot here? I'm too disinterested to turn the table on her, and so far, too bored with her trite, shallow positions on her issues, also.

BTW, the Bush Administration had more, a helluvalot more tangible accomplisments in the Middle East and in s.e. Asia than I've read here, all of which Obama/Clinton/Panetta are systematically and deliberately dismantling to advance their insideous, Greenie, Socialist agenda to our detriment.

[Not Sara]

ACO--@3:44. Totally agree.

[Frau Leherin a.D.]

rse-
Via Insty: did you read Mead's article on fixing education "Invest, innovate, educate"? LUN I noticed a core curriculum mentioned. Also, Althouse considers college for everyone as championed by U.S. Pres. Rei di Tutto.
...and bgates got a word in on that discussion.

"I've got another five years."