Last Map Of The Retreat At Twin Lakes

Time to pull out the Etch-a-Sketch and try to pin down the spot where George Zimmerman killed Trayvon Martin.

As resources we have:

Google Maps and Zillow;

Zimmerman's call to 911 [transcript], in which he gives directions to his parked car;

The City of Sanford initial police report, which indicates the police found the body in the walkway between 1231 Twin Trees Lane and 2821 Retreat View Circle;

film footage the night of the crime and following day from Fox Orlando;

a neighborhood shot from the Tampa Bay Times;

and MapQuest, which locates a 7-Eleven at 1125 Rinehart Rd, Sanford FL (GoogleMaps consistently overlooks this).  That is about 3/4 mile from the Retreat at Twin Lakes, and the logical approach would be by way of the main gate.

The gist - Trayvon Martin seemed to have been on a logical path home, which would have ended in the back yard of the home he was visiting after passing down an open walkway.  He was roughly a hundred yards from home when he was shot.

George Zimmerman parked near the intersection of a pedestrian walkway and Twin Trees Lane.  He was roughly thirty yards from his car when he fired the fatal shot.

Lets start with a map of the immediate area, with some cryptic notes attached:

The main gate is at the top, cleverly labeled "Main Gate".  Trayvon Martin would have come through that gate, past the clubhouse across on Twin Trees Lane.  His final destination was the home he was visiting on Retreat View Circle a couple of townhouses down from 2821 Retreat View Circle, marked in red.

The blue circle is the likely location of George Zimmerman's car.  Let's follow along on the 911 transcript as he describes his location to the police, with my notes embedded:

Zimmerman: If they come in through the gate, tell them to go straight past the club house, and uh, straight past the club house and make a left [onto Twin Trees Lane], and then they go past the mailboxes, that's my truck...[unintelligible]

Dispatcher: What address are you parked in front of?

Zimmerman: I don't know, it's a cut through so I don't know the address.

The obvious cut through area is circled in blue.  By eerie coincidence, the Google Maps satellite picked up a truck parked there.

Now, from the cut through area, Martin had three logical paths home.  He could have continued down Twin Trees Lane, cut through further down, and gotten home.  Or, he could have taken the cut through halfway across, to the open commons area overlooked by townhouses on each side and gone down towards home (that is the highlighted blue path).  Or he could have taken the cut through all the way across and gone down Retreat View Circle, ending up at his front door. 

And keep in mind - although unpaved, there are passages between each townhouse that would allow a pedestrian to move from the commons area to either Twin Trees Lane or Retreat View Circle. Foreshadowing!

So what did Zimmerman see Martin doing?  After Martin reportedly [but no verbal contact on the 911 tape?] walked by to "check me out" we hear this:

Zimmerman... Shit he's running.

Dispatcher: He's running? Which way is he running?

Zimmerman: Down towards the other entrance to the neighborhood.

Dispatcher: Which entrance is that that he's heading towards?

Zimmerman: The back entrance...fucking [unintelligible]

Dispatcher: Are you following him? Zimmerman: Yeah

Dispatcher: Ok, we don't need you to do that. Zimmerman: Ok

Dispatcher: Alright sir what is your name? Zimmerman: George...He ran.

You can trust me or look it up, but the back entrance is down near the home Martin was visiting.

If Martin disappeared I infer he did not run down Twin Trees Lane.  I conclude he headed along the cut through (left to right on the picture) and then... well, we don't know.

Zimmerman presumably followed along the cut through; given the location of the final confrontation, it seems likely he headed down along the blue line marking Trayvon's path through the commons area.

So how did they meet up again?  That would be a key question, and any answer would be speculative.  However, since Martin was ahead of Zimmerman and headed for home, it seems likely that Martin doubled back or hid somewhere (or Zimmerman outran him?  Really?)

One *POSSIBILITY* : Martin took the top cut through all the way to Retreat View Circle, then cut back into the commons area just below 2821 Retreat View Circle (marked in red).  A second *GUESS* is that Martin went down the commons area (along the blue line), cut left towards Retreat View Circle just below 2821 (effectively hiding from the view of anyone coming down the commons area), then doubled back.  Or, for our friends on the left, maybe he made it to the commons area before curling up in the fetal position in terror, awaiting execution by the scary man with a GUN.  Maybe.

Zimmerman must have made a bit of progress down the blue line if he had time to turn back towards his truck before Martin overtook him.  However, based on the map scale we are talking distances of 25-50 yards (a person walking a desultory 3 miles per hour covers about 30 88 yards per minute; adrenaline might add to that, but caution might subtract.)

Per the police report, the body was reported in the grass between 1231 Twin Trees Lane and 2821 Retreat View Circle.  A straight line between those two would have the body slightly down from where I located it with the red circle.  The difference is about 20 yards, but since my final spot is a bit closer to our guess for Zimmerman's SUV, it is arguably more favorable, so let me go through my arcane reasoning.

This background story on the Retreat at Twin Lakes from the Tampa Bay Times includes a photo which ought to be the commons area highlighted with the blue arrow from my map above:

Do note the left-to-right downhill grade and especially, the pooper-scooper doggie bag holder.

Now, here are some stills from the Fox Orlando footage.  I assert, using my imagination and keying off of the pooper scooper, that the Fox camera was located on Retreat View Circle at the red "Fox 35" label, looking along the red arrow towards the crime scene.  Here we go:

The pooper scooper is obvious, as is the sidewalk; that ought to be Twin Trees Lane in the background.  Another shot:

The back of the pooper scooper is visible; the sidewalk pattern near the street jibes nicely with the Fox35 location I marked.

Finally, the Fox report concludes with a chat with Trayvon's dad and his significant other; they take a quick walk down the commons area, turn, and look dramatically at... well, not much, but the situation strongly suggests it is where Martin was killed.

That is just down from the walkway.

That is plenty for now; even more can be gleaned from the Fox 35 video but it all leads to this location.

Eventually, I want to poke holes in the story told by George Zimmerman's father to Fox, as well as question the police version of events as recounted by Trayvon Martin's dad to the WaPo.

However, a perusal of the basic geography says two things: *IF* Zimmerman left his SUV as I have placed it, the idea that Zimmerman cornered Martin is hard to picture.  There are lots of open spaces, lots of ways from A to B, lots of places that are accessible by foot but not so much by car - running away with commitment and purpose should have been a fool-proof strategy.  If, that is, calling 911 or screaming for help was for some reason off the board.  The idea that Zimmerman overtook a scared kid in flight is hard to sustain.

That said, what if Zimmerman parked a bit down Twin Trees Lane towards the informal, unmarked cut through.  Now after he sees Martin run and gets out of his car, maybe he heads up the commons area while Martin was headed down it.  I score that as 'hmmm', because the police surely know where they recovered his car [LATE UPDATE: Zimmerman's wife collected the car and drove it home that night so the cops were left guessing].and the revised location doesn't jibe with the 911 call (he couldn't see the club house from down on Twin Trees, and the mailboxes he mentioned are central for the complex and near the clubhouse).  Still, cars can roll - we hope the police have thought this through.

LET ME ADD:  The elder Mr. Zimmerman describes Zimmerman's path as basically crossing the "T" - he purportedly entered the cut through near where I located the SUV, followed it from left to right to the Fox35 marking to confirm the street address, then doubled back, whereupon he met Martin.

As a plausibility check, Zimmerman claimed to be checking for an address.  It should be true that the townhouses to Zimmerman's left as he walked towards Retreat View Circle were unnumbered, since he was looking at the backs of the houses.  Heckuva job by the neighborhood patrol - did he really only learn that night that the cut through opened onto Retreat View Circle?

"He called the non-emergency number first, and they asked him where he was, because he was at the rear of the town houses and there was no street sign," said Robert

That is consistent with being on Twin Trees Lane, at the back of the townhouses that face Retreat View Circle.

"He lost sight of the individual, he continued to walk down the same sidewalk to the next street, so he could get an address for the police," he said.

"He went to the next street, realized where he was and was walking to his vehicle. It's my understanding, at that point, Trayvon Martin walked up to him and asked him, 'Do you have a [expletive] problem?' George said, 'No, I don't have a problem,' and started to reach for his cell phone...  at that point, he (Martin) was punching him in the nose, his nose was broken and he was knocked to the concrete."

HA! The Fox interviewer asks about two gunshots on the 911 tape; the father says that the police have confirmed that the first gunshot is a slamming door, and only one shot was fired.  His cheap shot - nobody heard two shots except the Martin family lawyers.  Uh huh, and the NY Times.  Well, nobody likes an I told you so, which is why nobody likes me.  Just like they told me they wouldn't.

THE OTHER FATHER:  Brevity another day; here is Trayvon Martin's father recreating the police version of Zimmerman's alibi told to him a few days after the killing.  Unless he had notes I wonder how much detail he was taking on, since he had to be shaken up.  Regardless, the police told a tale of two encounters:

According to Tracy Martin, the Sanford, Fla., detective recounted this sequence of events: Trayvon Martin walked up to Zimmerman’s vehicle and asked why he was following him. Zimmerman denied following the youth and rolled up the car window. Minutes after Trayvon walked away, Zimmerman got out of his vehicle.

Surely that would be on the 911 tape where Zimmerman says Martin is "checking me out"?  But I don't hear it.  Mute button, bad audio, BS?  Why would Zimmerman make that up - he had to know he had been calling 911? Oh, well, head trauma, PTSD.  Or, why would the cops make that up - to get dad to back down?  How's that working?

Then came the second encounter, according to Tracy Martin’s recollection of the detective’s account. Trayvon Martin appeared from behind a building in Zimmerman’s gated community, approached him and demanded, “What’s your problem, homie?”

When Zimmerman replied that he didn’t have a problem, Martin said, “You do now.” The unarmed teenager hit Zimmerman, knocked him to the ground, pinned him down and told him to “shut the [expletive] up.”

During the beating, Zimmerman pulled his gun and fired one shot at close range into Martin’s chest. “You got me,” the teenager said, falling backward.

"You got me"?  They lost me.  Save it for the screenplay.

 IF I WERE THE KING OF FLORIDA:  If I ruled Florida, I would say Ixnay on the pro-ImmermanZay leaks, and let's leak all the pro-Martin stuff.  That ought to quiet the mob and assure them that We Get It.  Well, as King, I Get It.

Later I would let the professionals do their job, which will probably include pulling the rug out from under the pro-Martin side.

For example, let's play along and pretend that we believe this mortician because we figure he is so honest and stupid that he would come out publicly in support of Zimmerman if that was where the chips fell.  Even so, his claim that he found no signs of a scuffle on Martin does not prove no scuffle occurred; it just proves Zimmerman didn't fight back effectively.  If there are other, more compelling witnesses maybe this guy could ice the cake; otherwise, he won't be nearly enough.  (And where is the medical examiner?  Surely the Sanford PD has a serious report - if it is consistent with this story, why hasn't it been leaked yet?)

 

Comments

[Captain Hate]

I won't accuse TK of being obsessed ever again.

[Ranger]

Hmmmm... so there are now reports that there were not skittles and no ice tea at the scene.

No Skittles
No Tea
No Cell Phone
No ID

I am beginning to suspect that Mr. Martin went all the way home, then decided to go back out, leaving all his stuff behind when he did.

[NK]

Wow. Do you ever sleep. What does this mean about witnesses? Which townhouses had a clear view of the location you ID?

[Jim Rhoads a/k/a vnjagvet]

Has TM ever been in the incident/accident reconstruction business? If not, he should consider entering the field. I'd hire him in a heartbeat.

[NK]

CaptH. Fabulous snark (hmm I wonder what you thought about my spectacle this afternoon)

Ranger very interesting. If true about him going home, doesn't that make everything the family has said is complete BS?

[Rick Ballard]

Ranger,

I'd like to know if there's a time stamped register receipt for Skittles and ice tea from the 7-11. I'd even suggest that the cops check the tape back to about noon the day before, just to be sure.

[daddy]

OT

This Arctic Drilling story linked from a lefty site is worth mentioning:

Here is a map of Alaska and looking up at the top you will see The Beaufort Sea and the Chukchi Sea.

Environmentalists, tho' never happy, were at least pleased that when the Fed's (Bureau of Ocean Energy Management (BOEM) gave pseudo permission last December for Shell to drill in the Chukchi, they mandated that Shell had to suspend their planned Drilling operations 38 days early, in order to ensure that if a spill occurred late in the season, encroaching Sea Ice wouldn't hamper clean up. That mandated end of ops date in the Chukchi is 38 days prior to historic first Ice data, (Oct 31) so backtrack 38 days and Shell has to stop Chukchi Operations by 23 September.

But now the Enviro's are angry because yesterday the same Fed's (BOEM) authorized Shell's proposed Ops in the Beaufort Sea to continue past Oct 31st and on into at least November.

The Enviro's are angry because they think that proposed Shell ops in both Seas should have the 38 day restriction and they are worried "that yesterday's approval will make it more difficult for the administration to defend its position from Shell’s challenge that a shorter Chukchi season is unnecessary."

"There’s no reason to think that if drilling is unsafe in one part of the Arctic in October, it would be safe in another."

I too find it interesting that proposed ops in 1 section of the Arctic are different from the adjoining section, (ie) that if you draw a line due north from Barrow, you can drill on the right side until November but on the left side only till September 23rd.

Perhaps there are legitimate reasons for the difference, but on it's face the ruling seems arbitrary to me, and personally I wish we'd just drill ANWR and put this issue to bed.

[NK]

Ranger/Rickb-- say no skittles and iced tea at7/11. That proves the family is full of BS. But what else does it prove?

[daddy]

T'would be a hoot if he was drinking Rush's Two If By Tea.

Liberal heads would explode everywhere.

[narciso]

the vampires are on the other side, daddy, I thought everyone knew that.

[Rick Ballard]

NK,

It does not speak to the incident at all. It does speak to the family attorney's efforts to slap a halo on St. Trayvon. The father can always fall back on a misunderstanding involving the kid left in Trayvon's care but the pictures and twitters are taking the shine right off that halo.

[NK]

RickB -- ok. If the race hustlers are exposed as BS artists, that works for me.

[Sara (Pal2Pal)]

Did anyone watch the Hannity segment with a heavy set black guy, I didn't get who he was. This guy was so misinformed, he had Zimmerman on top of Trayvon and seemed surprised there was a witness(s) to the contrary. If this whole mess has been ginned up against Z because of this kind of misinformation, I hope they don't arrest Zimmerman. He wouldn't last 15 minutes in jail.

[Captain Hate]

(hmm I wonder what you thought about my spectacle this afternoon)

Honestly I tuned out of this subject matter for a couple reasons and just noticed it as kind of background noise (I've been busy with a work project this week also). I was a bit dismayed that you were on the receiving end of some of the comments but a good friend of mine once told me that if I wasn't getting people pissed off at me occasionally I was probably opting for bland acquiescence too much.

[daddy]

CNN International is now doing the Zimmerman video and the reporter for CNN is saying to Erin Burnett that the video definitely does not show any injury on the back of Zimmerman's head. Yet this Daily Caller story shows 2 stills from that video with what looks like a few inches long crease down the back if Zimmerman's head.

How the hell does CNN get away with saying what I just heard them say on TV?

Guess I have to go read the 1000 comments on the previous 2 threads to educate myself. Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

Is there a JOM CliffNotes version anybody can point me to?

[Danube of Thought]

At this point I second the nomination of Tom Maguire for a Pulitzer. And hey, maybe it's true that you can't get one unless you're quite zanily obsessed. So what? He deserves it.

[narciso]

LOL. Captain, the argument clinic nature of someone of this, did get on my nerves, Socrates observing this, would take an extra
dose of hemlock, and wonder where the heck he went wrong, even the Sophists would be ticked.

[Dave (in MA)]

What Would Columbo Do?

[daddy]

"the vampires are on the other side"

I knew there was a reasonable explanation somewhere out there Narciso:)

[Danube of Thought]

"...a good friend of mine once told me that if I wasn't getting people pissed off at me occasionally I was probably opting for bland acquiescence too much"

If you ain't getting flack, you ain't over the target.

[narciso]

Well it is Barrow, 'so 30 Days and Nights' seem to make as much sense as anything else.

[Soylent Red]

Hmmmm... so there are now reports that there were not skittles and no ice tea at the scene.

According to Sharpton it was "Skillets and IT". Maybe that explains it.

OT, but are there any H3 hashers up here? I need to learn more.

[Pofarmer]

What I think happened. Obviously Martin was having trouble. Suspended from school, probably dealing drugs, probably doing petty theft. Dad and whomever go out. martn decides it's a good time to case a few apts and maybe make an easy score. Zimmerman catches him at it. Martin is caught, with no good excuse, and a budding juvy record. He doesn't want the cops involved, so decides to turn arond and do a beat down on zimmerman, who was never obviously any knd of threat if the kid had a brain. Kid slugs zimmerman, beats him up on the ground, and eats a 9mm for it.

Now, Btw, before NK goes all shoddy police work again. What happened with zimmerman is EXACTLY what they told us would happen in training, and zimmerman did exactly the right thing after the incident. He was brought in, questioned, and then released. And another clue. There is no satute of limitations on murder, not sure on manslaughter, so they could probabaly bring charges back at any time. We were well warned you cold go to jail whether you were in the wrong, or not,

At some point, the lawyers and race hucksters realized they might have a gold mine on there hands, and shopped the story to the national media, maybe with help. The needed fuel to get exposure for a law suit, and the administration needed something to keep the whiteys on edge, therefore yo get the "looked just like my son" foolishness.

So, now what we've done, instead of informing wanna be thugs they shouldn't beat on people, is inform a whole lot of other wanna be thugs that they can probably get away with it if they play the race card.

[Sara (Pal2Pal)]

From the other thread:

Skittles is a street term for MDMA or Ecstacy.

http://alcoholism.about.com/od/slang/g/term_skittles.htm

Posted by: Davod | March 29, 2012 at 11:59 PM

[Enlightened]

TM - IIRC - TM and GZ only exchanged words once. TM girlfriend says she was on the phone with him when the encounter happened. This was roughly timed between 7:12 and 7:16 per cell phone logs and GF (neither of which are corroborated by SPD-just per Crump.

So if TM confronted GZ at the SUV - then:

GF is lying-there was no "push" recorded on GZ 911 call and GZ 911 call does record any physical contact between the two.

Dad is lying or is mis-remembering - WHICH SPD has already said he mis-remembered that GZ was "squeaky clean"

[Rob Crawford]

That ought to quiet the mob and assure them that We Get It.

Nothing short of Zimmerman's neck being stretched will quiet the mob -- and even that will only last until they next Two Minute Hate.

[Rob Crawford]

This guy was so misinformed, he had Zimmerman on top of Trayvon and seemed surprised there was a witness(s) to the contrary. If this whole mess has been ginned up against Z because of this kind of misinformation...

The family's lawyers have been pushing "reconstructions" that are complete inflammatory fantasies. They're running a protection racket, not a legal practice.

[Davod]

Skittles from 7/11?

Maybe these weren't 7/11 skittles.

Skittles is a street name for MDMA and ecstasy. Time to revisit Travon's Twitter accounts.

http://alcoholism.about.com/od/slang/g/term_skittles.htm

[podesta]

Doesn't look like there is a drop of blood on Zimmerman when he's at the police station. Nothing on his face, his head, his pants, shirt, or coat. No blood from having his head banged on the sidewalk, or his nose broken, or splatter from Martin as Zimmerman shot him as he was being pummeled. Not a drop.

[jimmyk]

So how did the whole skittles and ice tea story get started? It would be interesting to do that forensic journalism thing that someone (jwest?) suggested yesterday.

I think pofarmer's take is pretty plausible, though it seems irrational--why commit a crime to wriggle out of an awkward but non-criminal situation? GZ didn't say he saw him doing anything illegal, just suspicious. TM could have just gone home, and even if the police found him, he had a legit reason for being there. So either he's just a hothead, or he had something on him (or in him) that made him want to neutralize GZ.

Sad thing is, it's hard to believe he was really going to kill Zimmerman, not that Zimmerman should have known that.

[Pofarmer]

So, podesta, can fire weaken steel?

[matt]

Querida pointed out this evening that a number of banks here in the Golden State have signs prominently displayed that say:

"no Hoddies. No Sunglasses."

Since the Unabomber, a white, sunglass wearing terrorist perhaps that is a good idea.

[Ignatz]

Show of hands;
How many people wish to God they'd never heard the names George Zimmerman and Trayvon Martin?

[Stephanie]

Not a drop...

Ya know it's amazing the willingness of people to be led around by the nose.

No intuitive thinking. Just accept it at face value and not think about why he might not have any blood on himself one or more hours later...

Why do I picture podesta as a cat following the media's lazer pointer antics on the wall? Zip zip. Zip. Left Right, Up, Down and these ignorant fools are all friggin mesmorized by the shiny object.

Damn but I've had enough of these fools and their OH look shiny!!! to last several lifetimes.

I hope the Mayans were right.

[Ignatz]

Or podesta or FedSec or Ludic7 or......

[Pofarmer]

"Sad thing is, it's hard to believe he was really going to kill Zimmerman, not that Zimmerman should have known that."

Street cred. It's not hard to beleive he would have killed him, at least before zimmerman started yelling for help. Dark, n the rain, with no witnesses.

[podesta]

Stephanie. Blood evidence as a shiny object? A shiny object would be rhetoric about shiny objects or asking if fire can weaken steel, as pofarmer poses. That's one clean looking shirt Zimmerman is wearing, shiny almost.

[Sara (Pal2Pal)]

Podesta obviously has not read the other thread nor looked at the close up still shots. If he had, he would see the gash on the back on Zimmerman's head, and if he looked closely, he would see the bandage over Zimmerman's nose. He also would have read the report from the paramedics that they treated him for a bloody nose, some kind of wound on his cheek, and cleaned up the back of his head. I think in the still shot it looks like they may have even shaved the spot around the head wound.

There is no way to see whether there is blood or not, the picture is just too grainy. But does it really matter since the police report indicates that Zimmerman sustained wounds consistent with being battered?

[Threadkiller]

Can not sleep. Runny nose.

CH, thanks for the shout out.

Big Z's dad said Z said, to Trayvon, he did not have a problem and went for his phone to make a call.

This is where the shit went down. Trayvon saw the gat and started thumping Z.

Just a thought.

[Ann]

Wow, it is great to see you Pofarmer. I have missed you. Please stick around.

Ig, I am jumping up and down and raising both my hands. I have never had such a hard time catching up with my friends here and I have never slid on by (SOB'ed) so many.

[jimmyk]

Podesta's not exactly the sharpest knife in the drawer, is he?

Street cred.

Maybe, but there's no way he gets away with it, especially once GZ starts yelling and people look out their windows. But if he was high, or just crazy, anything goes.

[podesta]

Sara. I have not seen any gash on Zimmerman's head, or any bandage on his nose, or read any report by the paramedics. Links please. What I have seen is a spotless shirt. And the footage isn't so grainy. And yes, it does matter that the police report indicates that Zimmerman sustained injuries, yet there is no evidence of injury, despite your assertions. You can tell me why this matters.

[Ignatz]

Here finally found a story more important than this one. Please some Google earth shots of Sarah Jones, Cincinnati Bengals cheerleader and English teacher arrested for having sex with an under aged student.
she was also in the news previously for having won $11 million from thedirty.com for publishing reports about her having an STD.
Tawdry enough yet.
No word on the respective races of the alleged rapist and rapee. May have been a love/hate crime.

[Mustang0302]

Just One Minute...ain't that what Colombo used to mutter just before he lowered the boom on somebody? (Hi, Dave in MA!)

Our Host: "Later I would let the professionals do their job, which will probably include pulling the rug out from under the pro-Martin side."

One of these two houses of cards is built on a rug that's fixin' to get pulled.

Stand by, y'all. Somebody's fixin' to throw sand in our eyes.

[Stephanie]

podesta, you a net noobie?

A shiny object is something someone throws in your way to distract you through misdirection.

Like running in and positing that the shirt had no blood on it. We're all supposed to swoon and say Wow! podesta brought some important info to us. Zimmerman is a liar.

Except that object was examined, debated and discarded hours ago as BS; because, we actually used some reasoning skills and a little internet snooping and discovered evidence that your assertion is full of holes.

Dance monkey, dance!

[Grim]

When I was 16 a buddy put a .22 through my calf while he was assing around. Didn't hurt much at first. I couldn't really comprehend it at first and so uttered the classic banality of the wounded: "You shot me" followed about three seconds later by some quite blue language.

Replace "got" with "shot" and the screenplay reads a little different.

Bully job on the physical reconstruction, here. You've got a real flair for investigative work.

[Stephanie]

You can tell me why this matters.

Why should anyone care why you think this matters. It will appear in the police report and the paramedic after action reports.

I haven't heard anything about the paramedic report or an interview with them.

Why hasn't some enterprising reporter traced who responded the scene and treated or offered treatment to Z and interviewed them?

Dance, dance, dance!

[Sara (Pal2Pal)]

Podesta: Look on the previous thread, the pics and links are there.

[Stephanie]

Once the adrenaline gets going (like after a car accident), you frequently don't feel anything for quite a while. We evolved that way. Next morning you feel like shit; because, the adrenaline has worn off and isn't masking the pain any more.

It is really sad to see the ignorance of those screaming 'he don't act hurt in the video.'

[podesta]

Stephanie. I know what a shiny object is, and I know that when you say "object was examined, debated and discarded hours ago as BS", that statement is a shiny object. I mean, it's not shiny to me, it's pretty lame, but I know you want it to be shiny.

[davod]

Back of Zimmerman's head for your edification.

http://conservativebyte.com/2012/03/does-george-zimmerman-appear-unscathed-in-new-police-video/

[Sara (Pal2Pal)]

From the previous thread:

Via MacsMind:

I’ve obtained copies of the Paramedic report on George Zimmerman from the scene and it confirms the injuries in the police report. For HIPAA reasons I won’t post it here, but it says in part that subject sustained superficial lacerations on the back on his head, left cheek and a swollen nose. He was treated and cleared for transport.

[East Bay Jay]

If TM is to win a Pulitzer it has to be for a Krugster takedown. I can't stand PK's views but I admit to cringing a bit on his behalf when facing a TM logic bomb. TM owns PK (not a good time to say that?).

[Sara (Pal2Pal)]

The gash is clearly visible in these pics:

“A police surveillance video taken the night that Trayvon Martin was shot dead shows no blood or bruises on George Zimmerman,” ABC News reporter Matt Gutman wrote, noting that Zimmerman told police “he shot Martin after he was punched in the nose, knocked down and had his head slammed into the ground.”

ABC News reported that Zimmerman appears uninjured in the video. But a still image from the video indicates what appears to be a vertical laceration or scar several inches long.

[davod]

Sarah, It is is becoming increasingly obvious that Zimmerman was not an experienced fighter. Otherwise he would have been better able to assess the damage and take a little more punishment before drawing his weapon.

[Sara (Pal2Pal)]

Does anyone else agree with me that it looks as if Zimmerman's head is shaved around the wound?

[podesta]

If that was a gash several inches long it certainly would have required stiches and would have produced a lot of blood, none of which is evident of Zimmerman's clothes. Looks to me that it is a missed shaven spot between the two knobs on the back of his head.

[daddy]

Breaking on BBC is that French cops have arrested near Toulouse at least 20 suspected Islamic terrorists possibly tied in with the Islamic murderer who went on that killing spree last week.

[Sara (Pal2Pal)]

Podesta: It was a superficial wound, not a deep wound that would need stitches. Please read what is posted before making your comments.

[Sara (Pal2Pal)]

OT: This reads as a threat.

The Talking Points Memo headline says that  “Dems Warn Of ‘Grave Damage’ To SCOTUS If ‘Obamacare’ Is Struck Down”. Sen. Richard Blumenthal (D), a former attorney general of Connecticut, pointed out that the US Supreme Court  would damage itself if it did something so ridiculous as find Obamacare unconstitutional.

“The court commands no armies, it has no money; it depends for its power on its credibility. The only reason people obey it is because it has that credibility. And the court risks grave damage if it strikes down a statute of this magnitude and importance, and stretches so dramatically and drastically to do it.”

[daddy]

Have just read through the last 4 threads in catch-up and all I can say is "Yay Jane!!!!"

[podesta]

Sara. If it was a superficial wound and not a deep wound then maybe Zimmerman should have manned up and fought instead of pulling out a gun and murdering Martin.

[podesta]

And I think Zimmerman should learn how to fight if he's going to be confronting strangers because he doesn't like their looks. I've seen a few fights and been in a few (none since high school) and I never saw anyone pull a gun. Poor ol Zimmerman shot an innocent person because he got scared. Not scared of being murdered, but scared that he was going to get punched. Poor Zimmerman, poor murderer Zimmerman.

[Sara (Pal2Pal)]

Yeah, Trayvon Martin was soooooooooo innocent, he came back and jumped Zimmerman, smashing him in the nose and pummeling him on the ground, according to the witness(s). You've been in fights, well la dee da, have you ever been attacked with no provocation? I have, and had my back broken. I can tell you that the pain and shock of such an attack sends the mind into self-preservation mode. You had a 6'3" 180 lb. punk take down a 5'6" guy and then threaten him and batter him. I'm sorry the guy died, but I have no sympathy for him as a victim. Why didn't he just go in the house where he was staying? Why did he double back and attack George Zimmerman? Zimmerman was doing his job. Martin was looking for trouble.

[Josh]

I Trayvon didn't have any marks on him then it further shows it wasn't him who was doing the screaming on the 911 recordings.

[BR]

Stuxnet mutant wormed its way into Fordow/Qom. LUN.

[BR]

And on Saturday, March 31, 2012, Sheriff Arpaio will hold another press conference updating findings.

Selective Service agency has been engaged in the investigation and while their first response was to refer it to the FBI, Arpaio is continuing to engage them to enable forensic testing of Obama's SS registration original.

[DublinDave]

Whatever way you dice it you're still left with a man who has a known history of violence, stalking and murdering a child.I don't care if he claims to be an honorary member of the "Justice league".I don't care if the scary gold-toothed black man initiated a fight.You're still left with an unstable,unemployed man who not only beats up women and cops,he stalks and murders children.He gonna fry like bacon.

[podesta]

Sara. Zimmerman was so battered that there is no blood on his shirt. Zimmerman is the punk. All gun and no fists. Zimmerman wasn't doing his job, he was doing his pretend job. I'm sorry you have no sympathy for the victim, and I'm sure Martin would not be surprised at all.

[squaredance]

Podesta: You have never been in a real fight in your life. You were perhaps bullied and forced to kowtow--this is perhaps part of your problem.

[Josh]

I've been around boxing all my life. Fighters can get noses bloodied very badly during a round and get cleaned up for the next round without any hint of blood or injury. Sometimes there are cuts to the head that bleed very badly that are not noticeable after the fight. Furthermore, alot fighters don't show any noticeable bruising or swelling even after being punched hundreds of times throughout 12 rounds. This is the same without gloves in the U.F.C. And this is with high quality cameras and very bright lights. Lastly, the day after is when alot of the bruising and swelling shows up.

[podesta]

Squaredance. I have been in real fights, though not since high school, as I stated. You, probably not. I don't hold it against you, but it shows.

[Sara (Pal2Pal)]

I find it incredible that some of you guys come here and make claims that are contrary to the eye witness reports, ear witness reports, medical reports, and police reports. It is even more incredible that you would call Trayvon Martin a child. He was no child.

6'3" 180 lb., all tatted up. And if you need to be 18 in Florida to legally get a tattoo, how is it that he is all tatted up, if he is only 17? Just askin'.

He was on his 3rd suspension from school, his tweets are disgusting, and when you read them, you can see that he is looking for street cred. He was a young man looking for trouble with drug dealing, vandalism, and possibly burglary.

[podesta]

Sara. Kids gets suspended. Martin had not been convicted of any crimes. And young kids give the finger for dumb reasons. Sorry, Sara, he was black while walking. Don't like his tattoos? What else don't you like Sara..Hmmm? come on you can be honest.

[BR]

On a wall in the Citadel of Aleppo
once the Temple of an Ancient Idol
hangs my necklace of Seven Escargot

Rumal Wire Service

[Sara (Pal2Pal)]

I don't like him being characterized as a child. I raised 3 sons, my own and two foster sons, both black, BTW. Not one of the three would have been considered a child at 17, even if they were typically immature, as most 17 year old boys are. But, they were all football players, worked out every day both thru sports and at home with the weights. They towered over me and their Dad since all were 6'2 or taller. But they didn't get hassled for walking while black anywhere because they were polite, clean cut young men who respected themselves, their peers, and the adults in their lives.

I was a fairly strict parent, but my own kids and my foster boys knew that I would back them up if need be (the Mama Bear in me) and they knew there was nothing so bad they couldn't come and talk it over. They were taught that there are consequences for bad behavior. My one rule was never lie to me or to get themselves out of trouble. I knew where they were going, what time they would be home, and who they were going with. They didn't do drugs or hang around druggies, they respected property and didn't get involved with vandalism and they would not steal. And I guarantee they would never lie on a morgue slab for 3 days unidentified.

None of my kids were perfect, far from it, and I wasn't the perfect parent all the time, but we did have rules and we didn't tolerate punk behavior at home or out. So, the other thing I don't like is a wannabe gangbanger punk. Why did Trayvon double back? He was within yards of where he was staying, why not just go home? No, he had to be a smart ass punk and come back and act like a big tough guy. Why not just go home?

So what if he was black. That is no excuse to walk around with a chip on your shoulder looking for trouble. But, unfortunately, he probably was indoctrinated with racism at home instead of being taught that actions have consequences no matter what skin color you have. Just look at what is going on now with the bleeding heart libs. You guys infantalize minorities, send them out with low expectations and little self-respect and then tell them it is okay to be victims.

[DF]

>a person walking a desultory 3 miles per hour
>covers about 30 yards per minute; adrenaline
>might add to that, but caution might subtract
Actually 3 MPH is 88 yards per minute (LUN)

[Jane (Bad says Obama sucks)]

Bravo Sara! I am so damn sick of implied racism as a weapon ala podesta.

Implied racism is th reason we have the most incompetent president in the history of our country sitting in the WH.

[DublinDave]

You can have all the tats,gold teeth and muscles god allows you,but at 17,inside where it counts,you're still a kid.

I shouldn't be saying this because it was told to me in confidence, but here goes;a friend of who works at the Sanford county clerks office is hearing from his friends on the force that Judge Zimmerman called in some favours the night of George's "incident".That would explain the appearence of some heavy hitters at a routine murder scene on a Sunday night,the police lying about Zimmerman's injuries (his clothes showed no signs of blood or maybe they laundered them in the back of the police car).

Bottom line:the son of a prominent white Judge gets a pass for killing a black kid.

[Rick Ballard]

I probably shouldn't mentions this but I was told by a friend on the Miami police force who has access to juvenile records that the sheet on Trayvon Martin was 12 pages of single space with multiple arrests for drug and property crimes.

Shove it DipstickDave.

[Jane (Where is Jon Corzine?)]

I probably shouldn't mention this but Obama's inside polling is to bad he decided that he had to start a race war. Expect violence by the summer and martial law in November.

Next up: King Obama

[Pofarmer]

Rick, there is an individual on another forum who is from that area, who says there is a LOT about Trayvon Martin that the MSM isn't reporting. Now, that isn't saying that he deserved what he got, or anything of that nature, but, he probably brought it upon himself by attacking Martin when he could have easily fled.

[fdcol63]

Obama is Bill Ayers's and Bernardine Dohrn's Manchurian Candidate tool.

The Weather Underground sought to incite a race war in America.

This is all part of their plan.

[Jane (Where is Jon Corzine?)]

I doubt he even needed to flea. It sounds like he wanted this fight. Perhaps he hated Latinos.

[Krystal]

Well if O had a son he would certainly look like TM as O is good at giving the middle finger. It is a shame that if GZ asked him what he was up to TM didn't simply say Hey my dad's fiancee lives here and I am visiting instead of perhaps jumping him (if that is what happened) I don't feel comfortable with any teens beating on adults unless the adult attacks them physically. One thing I have not gotten an answer on is whether TM's guardians called the police to report him missing when he didnt come home that night or why didn't the girlfriend call again that night to make sure he got home safe or alert someone?

[narciso]

That earlier story had two many words, in the LUN. Look he was foolish and it got him killed, and they are trying to hang someone for it, now, 'as a teaching opportunity'

[NK]

This topic has 2 poles-- TomM's -- uh-- thorough (OK a shrink might call it OCD) recreation of events and Pofarmer's pat explanation of how TMartin got himself killed. I have no idea yet which is more accurate. I do remember that in the Godfather novel, the Don tells a parable to explain why violence should be planned and controlled, and should be driven by reason not anger. He made the point by describing 2 men drving on the street and one cuts the other off, they confront, exchange words, and one winds up shot dead-- for nothing. One man dead other one's life ruined-- for nothing. The Don was apalled by the waste. Maybe GZ and TMartin were fated to be like the Don's men in a meaningless traffic accident. The explanation of events that night may be that stupid and useless.

[Pofarmer]

"Otherwise he would have been better able to assess the damage and take a little more punishment before drawing his weapon."

Teh stupid is strong with these.

[fdcol63]

And you can't fix stupid.

[Rick Ballard]

Pofarmer,

There just isn't any element of tragedy to this whatsoever. It's pure misadventure on both parts with no "got what he deserved" element to it at all. There is also absolutely no racial element to it. Zimmerman could just as well have been as black as a coal mine and Martin could have been white as a lily.

Our POS President denigrated the office with which he has been mis-entrusted again and his lap dog media have answered his dog whistle. Trayvon Martin has never, to my knowledge, done anything deserving of carrying the vile brand of being this President's adopted son.

Dublin Dave - if your comment was meant to be sarcastic, then I apologize.

[Pofarmer]

sara, you rock. Dunno about the whole Romney fixation, but, you rock.

[Janet]

I probably shouldn't mention this but...

Hahahaha, too funny you guys!

[Pofarmer]

"Look he was foolish and it got him killed, and they are trying to hang someone for it, now, 'as a teaching opportunity'"

Yep.

[Extraneus]

Dublin Dave - if your comment was meant to be sarcastic, then I apologize.

Heh.

[DublinDave]

I'm sure it wont be hard for investigators to look at Judge Zimmerman's phone records the night of George's "incident" to see who he called.

For the women in the group;what if Zimmerman followed you that night?

[DebinNC]

If Zimmerman is charged, can Trayvon's school discipline records be used at trial? Getting 3 long-term suspensions (that we know of) in 6 months indicates a kid with problems. Ditto Trayvon's mother withdrawing him from the aviation school he supposedly loved and sending him to live with Mr. Martin last year. Why did she do that? Had he become too much for her to handle? Did his companions worry her? Was he becoming a problem at the previous schools, a regular one in the morning and the aviation one in the afternoon? Most parents try not to uproot a child, especially one in high school, if they're doing well.

[Jane (Where is Jon Corzine?)]

What makes you think Zimmerman followed anyone Dave?

[Steve]

Martin was found faced down on the ground, his hands underneath the body. If Zimmerman shoots Martin while Martin is straddling and punching him, then Martin collapses on top of Zimmerman, no? And Zimmerman has to roll the body off of him. Getting blood on himself. Just looking for the scenario where Zimmerman can shoot Martin because he is in mortal danger. If Zimmerman is standing at any point with his gun drawn, he would not be justified in shooting Martin.

[Chubby]

((For the women in the group;what if Zimmerman followed you that night?))

why are you interested in totally irrelevant speculation? You probably don't this, but justice relies on facts not speculation, fantasy, innuendo, or wishful thinking.

[Chubby]

"don't know this"