Last Map Of The Retreat At Twin Lakes

Time to pull out the Etch-a-Sketch and try to pin down the spot where George Zimmerman killed Trayvon Martin.

As resources we have:

Google Maps and Zillow;

Zimmerman's call to 911 [transcript], in which he gives directions to his parked car;

The City of Sanford initial police report, which indicates the police found the body in the walkway between 1231 Twin Trees Lane and 2821 Retreat View Circle;

film footage the night of the crime and following day from Fox Orlando;

a neighborhood shot from the Tampa Bay Times;

and MapQuest, which locates a 7-Eleven at 1125 Rinehart Rd, Sanford FL (GoogleMaps consistently overlooks this).  That is about 3/4 mile from the Retreat at Twin Lakes, and the logical approach would be by way of the main gate.

The gist - Trayvon Martin seemed to have been on a logical path home, which would have ended in the back yard of the home he was visiting after passing down an open walkway.  He was roughly a hundred yards from home when he was shot.

George Zimmerman parked near the intersection of a pedestrian walkway and Twin Trees Lane.  He was roughly thirty yards from his car when he fired the fatal shot.

Lets start with a map of the immediate area, with some cryptic notes attached:

The main gate is at the top, cleverly labeled "Main Gate".  Trayvon Martin would have come through that gate, past the clubhouse across on Twin Trees Lane.  His final destination was the home he was visiting on Retreat View Circle a couple of townhouses down from 2821 Retreat View Circle, marked in red.

The blue circle is the likely location of George Zimmerman's car.  Let's follow along on the 911 transcript as he describes his location to the police, with my notes embedded:

Zimmerman: If they come in through the gate, tell them to go straight past the club house, and uh, straight past the club house and make a left [onto Twin Trees Lane], and then they go past the mailboxes, that's my truck...[unintelligible]

Dispatcher: What address are you parked in front of?

Zimmerman: I don't know, it's a cut through so I don't know the address.

The obvious cut through area is circled in blue.  By eerie coincidence, the Google Maps satellite picked up a truck parked there.

Now, from the cut through area, Martin had three logical paths home.  He could have continued down Twin Trees Lane, cut through further down, and gotten home.  Or, he could have taken the cut through halfway across, to the open commons area overlooked by townhouses on each side and gone down towards home (that is the highlighted blue path).  Or he could have taken the cut through all the way across and gone down Retreat View Circle, ending up at his front door. 

And keep in mind - although unpaved, there are passages between each townhouse that would allow a pedestrian to move from the commons area to either Twin Trees Lane or Retreat View Circle. Foreshadowing!

So what did Zimmerman see Martin doing?  After Martin reportedly [but no verbal contact on the 911 tape?] walked by to "check me out" we hear this:

Zimmerman... Shit he's running.

Dispatcher: He's running? Which way is he running?

Zimmerman: Down towards the other entrance to the neighborhood.

Dispatcher: Which entrance is that that he's heading towards?

Zimmerman: The back entrance...fucking [unintelligible]

Dispatcher: Are you following him? Zimmerman: Yeah

Dispatcher: Ok, we don't need you to do that. Zimmerman: Ok

Dispatcher: Alright sir what is your name? Zimmerman: George...He ran.

You can trust me or look it up, but the back entrance is down near the home Martin was visiting.

If Martin disappeared I infer he did not run down Twin Trees Lane.  I conclude he headed along the cut through (left to right on the picture) and then... well, we don't know.

Zimmerman presumably followed along the cut through; given the location of the final confrontation, it seems likely he headed down along the blue line marking Trayvon's path through the commons area.

So how did they meet up again?  That would be a key question, and any answer would be speculative.  However, since Martin was ahead of Zimmerman and headed for home, it seems likely that Martin doubled back or hid somewhere (or Zimmerman outran him?  Really?)

One *POSSIBILITY* : Martin took the top cut through all the way to Retreat View Circle, then cut back into the commons area just below 2821 Retreat View Circle (marked in red).  A second *GUESS* is that Martin went down the commons area (along the blue line), cut left towards Retreat View Circle just below 2821 (effectively hiding from the view of anyone coming down the commons area), then doubled back.  Or, for our friends on the left, maybe he made it to the commons area before curling up in the fetal position in terror, awaiting execution by the scary man with a GUN.  Maybe.

Zimmerman must have made a bit of progress down the blue line if he had time to turn back towards his truck before Martin overtook him.  However, based on the map scale we are talking distances of 25-50 yards (a person walking a desultory 3 miles per hour covers about 30 88 yards per minute; adrenaline might add to that, but caution might subtract.)

Per the police report, the body was reported in the grass between 1231 Twin Trees Lane and 2821 Retreat View Circle.  A straight line between those two would have the body slightly down from where I located it with the red circle.  The difference is about 20 yards, but since my final spot is a bit closer to our guess for Zimmerman's SUV, it is arguably more favorable, so let me go through my arcane reasoning.

This background story on the Retreat at Twin Lakes from the Tampa Bay Times includes a photo which ought to be the commons area highlighted with the blue arrow from my map above:

Do note the left-to-right downhill grade and especially, the pooper-scooper doggie bag holder.

Now, here are some stills from the Fox Orlando footage.  I assert, using my imagination and keying off of the pooper scooper, that the Fox camera was located on Retreat View Circle at the red "Fox 35" label, looking along the red arrow towards the crime scene.  Here we go:

The pooper scooper is obvious, as is the sidewalk; that ought to be Twin Trees Lane in the background.  Another shot:

The back of the pooper scooper is visible; the sidewalk pattern near the street jibes nicely with the Fox35 location I marked.

Finally, the Fox report concludes with a chat with Trayvon's dad and his significant other; they take a quick walk down the commons area, turn, and look dramatically at... well, not much, but the situation strongly suggests it is where Martin was killed.

That is just down from the walkway.

That is plenty for now; even more can be gleaned from the Fox 35 video but it all leads to this location.

Eventually, I want to poke holes in the story told by George Zimmerman's father to Fox, as well as question the police version of events as recounted by Trayvon Martin's dad to the WaPo.

However, a perusal of the basic geography says two things: *IF* Zimmerman left his SUV as I have placed it, the idea that Zimmerman cornered Martin is hard to picture.  There are lots of open spaces, lots of ways from A to B, lots of places that are accessible by foot but not so much by car - running away with commitment and purpose should have been a fool-proof strategy.  If, that is, calling 911 or screaming for help was for some reason off the board.  The idea that Zimmerman overtook a scared kid in flight is hard to sustain.

That said, what if Zimmerman parked a bit down Twin Trees Lane towards the informal, unmarked cut through.  Now after he sees Martin run and gets out of his car, maybe he heads up the commons area while Martin was headed down it.  I score that as 'hmmm', because the police surely know where they recovered his car [LATE UPDATE: Zimmerman's wife collected the car and drove it home that night so the cops were left guessing].and the revised location doesn't jibe with the 911 call (he couldn't see the club house from down on Twin Trees, and the mailboxes he mentioned are central for the complex and near the clubhouse).  Still, cars can roll - we hope the police have thought this through.

LET ME ADD:  The elder Mr. Zimmerman describes Zimmerman's path as basically crossing the "T" - he purportedly entered the cut through near where I located the SUV, followed it from left to right to the Fox35 marking to confirm the street address, then doubled back, whereupon he met Martin.

As a plausibility check, Zimmerman claimed to be checking for an address.  It should be true that the townhouses to Zimmerman's left as he walked towards Retreat View Circle were unnumbered, since he was looking at the backs of the houses.  Heckuva job by the neighborhood patrol - did he really only learn that night that the cut through opened onto Retreat View Circle?

"He called the non-emergency number first, and they asked him where he was, because he was at the rear of the town houses and there was no street sign," said Robert

That is consistent with being on Twin Trees Lane, at the back of the townhouses that face Retreat View Circle.

"He lost sight of the individual, he continued to walk down the same sidewalk to the next street, so he could get an address for the police," he said.

"He went to the next street, realized where he was and was walking to his vehicle. It's my understanding, at that point, Trayvon Martin walked up to him and asked him, 'Do you have a [expletive] problem?' George said, 'No, I don't have a problem,' and started to reach for his cell phone...  at that point, he (Martin) was punching him in the nose, his nose was broken and he was knocked to the concrete."

HA! The Fox interviewer asks about two gunshots on the 911 tape; the father says that the police have confirmed that the first gunshot is a slamming door, and only one shot was fired.  His cheap shot - nobody heard two shots except the Martin family lawyers.  Uh huh, and the NY Times.  Well, nobody likes an I told you so, which is why nobody likes me.  Just like they told me they wouldn't.

THE OTHER FATHER:  Brevity another day; here is Trayvon Martin's father recreating the police version of Zimmerman's alibi told to him a few days after the killing.  Unless he had notes I wonder how much detail he was taking on, since he had to be shaken up.  Regardless, the police told a tale of two encounters:

According to Tracy Martin, the Sanford, Fla., detective recounted this sequence of events: Trayvon Martin walked up to Zimmerman’s vehicle and asked why he was following him. Zimmerman denied following the youth and rolled up the car window. Minutes after Trayvon walked away, Zimmerman got out of his vehicle.

Surely that would be on the 911 tape where Zimmerman says Martin is "checking me out"?  But I don't hear it.  Mute button, bad audio, BS?  Why would Zimmerman make that up - he had to know he had been calling 911? Oh, well, head trauma, PTSD.  Or, why would the cops make that up - to get dad to back down?  How's that working?

Then came the second encounter, according to Tracy Martin’s recollection of the detective’s account. Trayvon Martin appeared from behind a building in Zimmerman’s gated community, approached him and demanded, “What’s your problem, homie?”

When Zimmerman replied that he didn’t have a problem, Martin said, “You do now.” The unarmed teenager hit Zimmerman, knocked him to the ground, pinned him down and told him to “shut the [expletive] up.”

During the beating, Zimmerman pulled his gun and fired one shot at close range into Martin’s chest. “You got me,” the teenager said, falling backward.

"You got me"?  They lost me.  Save it for the screenplay.

 IF I WERE THE KING OF FLORIDA:  If I ruled Florida, I would say Ixnay on the pro-ImmermanZay leaks, and let's leak all the pro-Martin stuff.  That ought to quiet the mob and assure them that We Get It.  Well, as King, I Get It.

Later I would let the professionals do their job, which will probably include pulling the rug out from under the pro-Martin side.

For example, let's play along and pretend that we believe this mortician because we figure he is so honest and stupid that he would come out publicly in support of Zimmerman if that was where the chips fell.  Even so, his claim that he found no signs of a scuffle on Martin does not prove no scuffle occurred; it just proves Zimmerman didn't fight back effectively.  If there are other, more compelling witnesses maybe this guy could ice the cake; otherwise, he won't be nearly enough.  (And where is the medical examiner?  Surely the Sanford PD has a serious report - if it is consistent with this story, why hasn't it been leaked yet?)

 

Comments

[NK]

DebinNC-- hard to speculate what rulings a judge would make without even seeing and indictment. But probably not; the judge would probably allow the defense to submit evidence of previous TMartin fights with strangers in public because that's very relevant to the self-defense claim. But TMartin's 'character' it's just not relevant-- unless the prosecution put in evidence that TMartin is a sweet boy, then that can be rebutted. Somehow, I don't think the State will claim TMartin was a sweet boy.

[Steve]

"... If Zimmerman is charged, can Trayvon's school discipline records be used at trial?
..."

Why does any of that matter? If Martin was shot at close range the shooting is justified. Anything else and Zimmerman has a problem.

[fdcol63]

Steve,

I can see a scenario in which Martin is on his knees, with Zimmerman right next to him on the ground on his back, holding Zimmerman's head and beating it into the concrete or ground.

Somehow, Zimmerman pulls his weapon and shoots. There's probably a moment where Martin straightens up on his knees, looking dazed, like "Man, you shot me!", holding his chest or stomach where he was shot.

Zimmerman sees his opportunity to get up. Where the blood spatter would have gone depends on where Martin was shot and how, exactly, Martin was positioned when shot. but there's a variety of scenarios where Zimmerman might not have gottena any or much blood on him.

Once Zimmerman is standing, Martin collapses on the ground, face down, still holding his stomach or chest.

[NK]

The more I think about this-- what evidence could the State have of an unlawful killing? A body, a gunshot wound forensics, and a shooter with some injuries, who made statements that were exculpatory, and an ambiguous 911 call from a girlfriend. How does the State disprove reasonable doubt? If the State really wanted a conviction they'd build a case with the shooter's history of prior similar criminal conduct an illegally purchased gun, 'looking for trouble' that night, prior arrests for gun violence and use the victim's unblemished record as a quiet and decent citizen to attack the selfdefense claim, and hope the jury's inferences undermine 'reasonable doubt'. Can the State do that here? The State may have a lousy case, even if they believe GZ acted unreasonaably and unlawfully. This is a mess.

[Pofarmer]

fdcol63, did you actually just try to make sense to steve?

[Pofarmer]

NK

Is there an actual 911 call from the girlfriend?

[Pofarmer]

Oh, and I'm thinkin the whole "lousy case" thing, combined with Existing Florida statutes regarding Neighborhood Watch and Self Defense, are why the originally dropped it.

[tom maguire]

3 mph and 3 feet in a yard; I knew I should have opened Excel.

[NK]

Po-- you are correct-- purported 911 call-- that may be family BS as well. The night of the shooting, they let GZ go, because they really had nothing to charge him on the spot, and GZ was part of the community, so he wasn't going anywhere. In the 24 days or so after the shooting, the 'investigation' went nowhere, no arrest of GZ, not even a GJ empaneled-- that was the hook that the family lawyers and the race hustlers used to get the media to hump the 'story' and get the State involved. As you know, IMO that 'slow walk' for 24 days was a mistake. BUT-- maybe the slow walk was because the local prosecutor didn't think there was a case, and wanted to wait before announcing that so he didn't look like he was acting too quickly to exonerate GZ. It's a mess.

[Steve]

from this http://www.mediaite.com/tv/new-trayvon-martin-witness-speaks-to-anderson-cooper-about-night-of-shooting/ it is pretty clear that both were on the ground fighting when the shot was fired. Martin is on top. Drawing the gun is probably something Zimmerman should not have done simply because Martin might have been able to grab it from him and shoot Zimmerman. Maybe even the stand your ground law kicks in with the law saying Zimmerman was not required to get away from Martin before drawing the gun.

[Melinda Romanoff]

Can Crump get disbarred for this race to victory?

[DF]

So now using the correct MPH to YPM conversion, hypothetically, let's say that when Zimmerman says "He's running", Martin was close to the location of the car (circled in TM's picture). How long did the rest of the 911 call take - 60 seconds? Even at walking speed, Martin could have been virtually back at the apartment by then, while Zimmerman would (probably?) have barely moved. So the next question is ... is this reconstruction inaccurate in some way, or was Martin lost, or did he just have no intention of going back to the apartment?

[Threadkiller]

Steve, when a powerful semi AUTOMATIC hand gun is used to murder children, usually the victim, at that close range, flies backward up to 40 feet. This is especially true for large caliber rounds like the 9mm.

I hope that helps your analysis.

[Clarice]

TM, what a job! Steph, I think your laser following cat analogy was true and hilarious.

[Rick Ballard]

TK,

I heard it was an automatic assault weapon and he was using red phosphorous (CHEMICAL!!) rounds. It's a wonder there was anything left to identify.

[NK]

MelR-- the tawana brawley lawyers-- maddox was disbarred for misconduct arising out of the Brawley mess, and Mason was later disbarred for messing with escrow money for indigent clients. mason became a 'minister' and still does the'civil rights' gig (I guess his indigent clients' civil rights didn't matter.) Nothing Crump has done (TMK) yet compares at all with with those monsters did over 23 years ago. BUT THE DAY IS YOUNG.

[Steve]

"... usually the victim, at that close range, flies backward up to 40 feet. ..."

How does the body end up face down after flying backward for such a distance?

[NK]

Steve-- thanks for that link. That CNN witness seems to corroborate GZ's statement to the cops, no?

[Rick Ballard]

I'd also likw to ask all the women here how they would feel if Antonio Banderas was behind them in the dark? Ricardo Montalban? Desi Arnaz?

[Melinda Romanoff]

What did Dinkins do after Crown Heights again?

Oh, yeah. Retire.

[DebinNC]

I missed Stephanie's early-hour comment:
..........................................
Why do I picture podesta as a cat following the media's lazer pointer antics on the wall? Zip zip. Zip. Left Right, Up, Down and these ignorant fools are all friggin mesmorized by the shiny object.

Damn but I've had enough of these fools and their OH look shiny!!! to last several lifetimes.

I hope the Mayans were right
............................................
So funny and so true

[Steve]

"... That CNN witness seems to corroborate GZ's statement to the cops ..."

I don't think we have the transcript of what Zimmerman said to the investigators at the police station. In the police report one of the officers wrote that he did not ask Zimmerman any questions.

[Steve]

"... What did Dinkins do after Crown Heights again? ..."

Those were some wild times in NYC. Freddy's Fashion Mart is applicable to the theatrics surrounding the Martin killing. Esp since Al Sharpton has gone national.

[Threadkiller]

I probably shouldn't say this, Steve, but the cops usually stage the body when the perp forgets to put a "drop piece" in the vic's hand, prior to their arrival.

[Sylvia]

Well it's good to see Tom did a reconstruction of this. I have a reconstruction as well.

Trayvon is on the phone with his girlfiend until 7:16. His girlfriend recounts how Zimmerman comes up on TM in the cutthrough. They have a few words and she hears some shoving sound and the earpiece falls out.

Now Zimmerman is screwed because he did not realize TM was on the phone at that time, because TM had an earpiece and a hoodie on. So all Zimmermans words he recounted are provable lies.

We know the police got there at 7:17.

We have a witness hearing the argument and seeing the scuffle outside his place, all taking place in the same area and within a short time.

We know from TM girlfriend that TM was trying to get home, and that GZ was running after TM trying to confront him. So it is more likely that GZ was the first person to try to detain TM by grabbing him and TM tried to break free but couldn't and punched him.. Or maybe approached TM and got in his face, didn't leave him alone, asking questions until TM pubched him because he was scared.

Either way, they got in a fight and were on the grass. The witness saw most of the struggle and said he did not hardly see any motion and they were clearly on the grass. So GZ saying that TM repeatedly slamming his head on the concrete was a lie.

We had a female witness saying that the person with the white T-shirt was on top. We know from the video that GZ was wearing a white T-shirt under his jacket. We do not see any grass stains on his jacket so his jacket might have fallen off in the struggle. We know TM had a dark gray hoddie. We don't know if his jacket came off in the struggle or the color of his T-shirt.

We have another witness, the guy who said that he did not see that the person who was shot, moved after he was shot. He was in the same face down position. So it's not like GZ had to move him to get up. He said he thinks the person who shot was on top. The guy with the white T-shirt.

We have NO blood on GZ's shirt. If he was under TM ina close struggle there should be some blood spots on his shirt.

We do not know that the blood on GZ's head and face was TM's blood, as it was not tested. We do not see any big injuries on GZ.

No GZ lied from beginning to end. He is probably one of those psychopathic guys who had fantasies about murder. Kind of a budding John Wayne Gacy type. And he took his opportunity.

[yeah that will happen]

OMG! That's all I can say, OMG!

[Strawman Cometh]

Speaking of cats, Tk and Rick are having too much fun with Steve the mouse.

[Ignatz]

I know it will be impossible not to discuss this non-national story at all, but could we have an agreement from everyone, including the trolls, that from now on regarding this story no one will start a sentence with "If....", "What may have happened...", "As seems likely..." or "I know we don't have enough evidence to form an opinion, but..."?

[NK]

MelR--Dinkins? Lovely man, a very terrible and dangerous mayor. But I will say this, during Guiliani's 8 years, Dinkins could have caused alot of race baiting trouble. He didn't-- I respect and appreciate that.

[Steve]

"... He said he thinks the person who shot was on top. The guy with the white T-shirt. ..."

How does Martin end up face down if Zimmerman was on top when he shot? And how does Zimmerman's back get wet and grass stained as the police report says?

[Janet]

his jacket might have fallen off in the struggle.

I wish you hadn't mentioned that. :(

[Ignatz]

New one for the banned list,
"I have a reconstruction as well..."

[Pofarmer]

Awwww, c'mon Ignatz. I gotta go to work, anyway. dang it.

[NK]

PS-- I was in a meeting with a big real estate macha during the Crown heights riots when he took a call from Dinkins who was in a car driving to Brooklyn. The macha told Dinkins politely but firmly that order had to be restored, that people were afraid that mob rule had taken over. The call ended, the Macha looked at us and said to us about Dinkins-- lovely man, doesn't have a clue about what's really going on. They were good friends politically and socially.

[Sylvia]

Also I think GZ's 911 phone call ended at 7:14, where he started getting out of his car and following. We have the girlfriend TM phone call ending at 7:16, and she heard the verbal confrontation right before the end of the call.

So we have 7:14 to 7:16, that GZ had to find TM again. Like Tom said, a person can walk 30 years a minutes. So they walked about 60 yards from the cutthrough. It could actually be closer to a minute gap, the end of 7:14 and the beginning of 7:16.

Actually 30 or 60 yards makes sense. That seems about the distance. If Gz actually ran he could catch up. Once TM got to the cutrough he probably felt safe and slowed down while GZ ran. Also according the the gf, it sounds like TM stopped at some point and turned around and saw GZ and spoke to GZ from a distance. While they were speaking, it seems like GZ approached TM and tried to grab him, because the phone went dead then.

No everything GZ said was a lie. The guy should be arrested for first degree murder. I think it was planned.

[Melinda Romanoff]

!esusegleteB !esuegleteB !eseugleteB

[Extraneus]

A 9mm round has a muzzle energy of about 380 ft-lbs force. If shot with a hollow-point bullet, which is extremely likely since no one would carry a fully-jacketed bullet for self-defense, the body would have absorbed almost all of this as impact energy. If Martin was on his knees and the shot was to either side of the middle of his center of mass, I think he could easily have been knocked back and to the side, landing face down. Surely in that scenario, his hands could have ended up under his body, either from clutching his chest or just because they ended up there.

[Sylvia]

"How does Martin end up face down if Zimmerman was on top when he shot?"

I was wondering that myself. According to the witness he did not see them well. I wonder if GZ was on top and TM was face down in the grass. Which explains why they wer so hard to indentify. Then GZ reached around and shot TM in the chest. That may be why GZ has no blood spatter on him and according to the witness, that TM did not move after he was shot, because GZ was sitting on top and holding him down.

" And how does Zimmerman's back get wet and grass stained as the police report says?"

Well they were struggling and maybe at some point GZ was rolled over on the grass. Maybe his jacket came off which is why we don't see grass stains on his jacket.

[Threadkiller]

Steve, this is from the police report:

"the infant, after receiving multiple rounds to the chest over a sustained period of time, crumpled forward due to the weight of his adult sized gold bridgework."

[Sue]

Seriously? His girlfriend hears the scuffle, knows Trayvon is scared and tells absolutely no one? Does this even make sense?

[Chubby]

((In the police report one of the officers wrote that he did not ask Zimmerman any questions))

so what? that doesn't exclude that other officers did.

if you have it as a certain fact that no officer asked Z questions, by all means post it.

anything less is malicious bs and doesn't serve the purpose of justice

[Steve]

"... The call ended, the Macha looked at us and said to us about Dinkins-- lovely man, doesn't have a clue about what's really going on. ..."

considering the city got thru the 70s - 90s without more riots maybe Dinkins had the right policy. The Giulliani approach would have made things worse back then.

[Sylvia]

Extraneaus -we have the witness who heard the shot. They were both on the ground in a struggle when the shot went off.

Sue- the gf story is confirmed by phone records. Apparently the police never contacted her to get her story.

[Sue]

Look, I've watched enough NCIS and SVU to know that the police officers do not ask questions. The very special agents and detectives do. Once a detective arrives on scene, the police officers won't ask questions of the "suspect". They will canvas the neighborhood and question witnesses.

[Crystal Mangum]

fnally! Thanks you, sylvia.

[Clarice]

Oh, God, Sylvia's back-Call her friend Hit! And she's too bizarre even for Steve!

[Sue]

Sylvia,

The story is confirmed by Trayvon's lawyer. But going with the story as being true, why the hell didn't she notify someone that Trayvon was scared and in what sounded like a fight?

[Clarice]

Don't kill me. I posted this thread to the Tatler . I hope that doesn't draw even more cuckoo flies.http://pjmedia.com/tatler/2012/03/30/mapping-the-trayvon-martingeorge-zimmerman-story/

[Sylvia]

How did Crytal Mangum know that the bathroom she said would have giz by the toilet, right where she said it would be, belonged to the guy she picked out? How did she even know which roomate used which bathroom. A little coincidental isn't it?

[Ignatz]

--!esusegleteB !esuegleteB !eseugleteB--

LOL, Mel.

[DublinDave]

"I'd also likw to ask all the women here how they would feel if Antonio Banderas was behind them in the dark?"

If you want to imagine what it would be like to have Antonia Banderas behind you in the dark,Rick,work away.

It must have been truly terifying for Tray to have an armed man hunt him.The "fight-or-flight" response kicked in but sadly it was the wrong one.

Sad day when a grown man can hunt and excecute a child and walk free.

[Melinda Romanoff]

One little "u" misplaced. Dang.

[Sylvia]

Sue- I'm not sure. I think she did contact the family, and the family went to the police and the police refused to pull phone records. So family attorney had to pull the phone records themself.

[Sue]

Sad day when a grown man can hunt and excecute a child and walk free.

Even sadder when your girlfriend waits 3 weeks to tell anyone she was on the phone with you and didn't tell anyone.

[NK]

steve@1030-- uh-- no. NYC got into a mess because it was run by Tamany for 100 years, and when Tamany dissolved, it was run by the Liberals Lindsay, Beame, Koch, Dinkins, Holtzman, and on and on and on. That toxic combination made NYC unlivable-- Dinkins called it 'ungovernable' in 1991. NYC was saved by its citizens, the WS derivative and high speed trading, and..... Giuliani.

[Sue]

Sylvia,

I'm not sure either. But what I am sure of is if she told someone that night, they did not notify Trayvon's parents.

[Rick Ballard]

"Does this even make sense?"

Sue,

Shhh... This is a careful experiment concerning the effects of sylvan bozons emitted from a block of solid moronium upon the thought processes emanations of a Ronulan mind [?}.

[Sylvia]

I don't even know what Tom is talking about with his post. According the distance covered, it makes sense to me that GZ caught up to TM, and that was about the correct distance they should be from the car. Tom wrote that whole long post for nothing.

[Janet]

Call her friend Hit!

Speaking of Hit...my daughter asked me who my FB friend was that had a safety pin in his nose! Hah! Doesn't want me hangin' with sketchy people!

[Chubby]

((One little "u" misplaced. Dang.))

which did not spoil the funny one little bit

echo Ignatz

[Sue]

Rick,

I know. I should know from Duke days not to try to reason with Sylvia. I will stop before Clarice gets hauled in for having pistolas in DC.

[Sue]

Janet,

That's funny. She probably thought you had gone over to the dark side. ::grin::

[Ignatz]

--Steve, this is from the police report:

"the infant, after receiving multiple rounds to the chest over a sustained period of time, crumpled forward due to the weight of his adult sized gold bridgework."--

Since the speculation and flat out false claims, like DD's and Sylvia's idiocies, won't end, I hope TK feels well enough today to provide us with more of his ballistics expertise and maintains his inside source to the real police reports.

[Sylvia]

First of all Sue, the aprents were not told right away that TM was dea, because they had him listed as a John Doe for three days.

And we don't know when the gf told the family. It could have been right away. According the the family the police refused to interview her. She must have told them a while ago if they pulled phone records, as it takes a while to get a subpoeana and have the records pulled, if you are not the police.

[Steve]

"... it was run by the Liberals Lindsay, Beame, Koch, Dinkins, Holtzman, and on and on and on. That toxic combination made NYC unlivable-- ... "

Holtzman was my congresswoman in Flatbush. Followed by Stephen Solarz. I kind of liked the city back then. Sounds crazy to say, but it was not as crowded as it is now. I still think things would have been worse if Dinkins was not mayor.
And I think there are lessons to keep in mind for when things get real bad in the period we are heading into right now.

[Rob Crawford]

podesta:

maybe Zimmerman should have manned up and fought

The cry of the thug.

The only people I've ever heard take this position are thugs. Zimmerman didn't want a fight; he didn't start a fight. A thug started the fight, and thugs around the country are rallying for the "right" to be thugs without having to risk their targets fighting back.

Last year here in Ohio, a couple of coke-addled thugs attacked a guy while he was getting gas for his car. He shot one of them, then was able to get away in his car. The police even returned the shooter's gun (a couple of months later, but, still...). The reaction of the thugs? "We were just looking for a fist fight! What kind of p*ssy pulls a gun during a fist fight?!"

It never occurred to them that he had no interest in being in a fight -- but maybe it will now.

[Rob Crawford]

Steve:
If Zimmerman is standing at any point with his gun drawn, he would not be justified in shooting Martin.

Please refrain from making further statements from total ignorance.

Thank you.

[Rob Crawford]

And for the cries of "where's Martin's blood":

Reality is not Hollywood. Blood packs are specifically engineered to be dramatic.

[Rob Crawford]

How does the body end up face down after flying backward for such a distance?

Oh God, you actually believed what was an obviously tongue-in-cheek statement?

[Rob Crawford]

I'd also likw to ask all the women here how they would feel if Antonio Banderas was behind them in the dark? Ricardo Montalban? Desi Arnaz?

Desi was apparently quite the womanizer, to Lucy's despair. I wonder how much input he had into the character of James T. Kirk?

[Clarice]

My pistolas are cocked. I am furious that Sylvia is posting garbage long discredited here and anyone who encourages her to continue to make this thread unreadable and useless gets it from me.Single neuron Steve and Dublin bozo are more than enough distraction from rational analysis.

[Rob Crawford]

It must have been truly terifying for Tray to have an armed man hunt him.

"Tray" had no idea Zimmerman was armed, because Zimmerman was carrying concealed.

[Sylvia]

Clarice, or maybe Tom, who knows. I am quoting from the eye witness. I challenge to come up with any thing I said that is not true.

[Jim Ryan]

Why didn't Tray know about the gun, Rob? Doesn't he watch the news like DublinDave?

[Another Bob]

@Extraneus | March 30, 2012 at 10:27 AM:

That isn't how muzzle energy works. But if you're trying to 'help' Steve, disregard...

[Rob Crawford]

Good point, Jim. I hadn't considered that.

[Sylvia]

Here's another conspiracy theory. There's something odd about all of GZ's "friends". What kind of friends were they?

If I were the police I would look into whether GZ was involved in some sort of second amendment militia wannabe type group. And maybe had friends in the police department as well.

[Rick Ballard]

Complete video re-enactment

[jim crane]

Sometimes bad things happen to good people.

[Janet]

Hah, Rick! I noticed that nobody's jacket came off. hmmmmmm

[centralcal]

oh boy, she's back and just as insane as ever!

[Sylvia]

As to the Skittles and Iced TEa, I read that they were found in GZ's pockets. Although I don't know if that is reliable info.

[Stephanie]

I challenge to come up with any thing I said that is not true.

First of all Sue, the aprents were not told right away that TM was dea, because they had him listed as a John Doe for three days.

What did I win?

That Sylvia will leave, please please please.

That trope was shown to be false days ago.

[Ignatz]

I loved the running commentary at that link, Rick.

[Sylvia]

And as to the struggle starting, there are a couple different scenarios.

Let's say that TM did punch GZ first, just to get GZ out of his face. Then GZ could run, or TM could run. In an ordinary situation, that would be what would happen. And that would be the end of it.

However, they ended up in a struggle. So if no one ran, someone had to try to capture and HOLD ON to the the other person. I think it more likely it was GZ, since GZ was in hot pursuit, it was GZ who tried to hold onto TM. And do his "citizen's arrest.

So someone had to tackle and try and take down someone. Even if TM did that, it would be likley that TM slammed GZ down on the ground and would then just run. It does not make sense that he would try to stay there.

So logic fits that GZ took down TM and then tried to "arrest" him. Someone had to purposely jump on top. We should look into whether Zimmerman had any wrestling background. But he probably tried to get TM on his stomach. TM striggles and maybe tried to turn around and GZ shot him.

[DublinDave]

I'm distracting from the thread so i'll stop posting for awhile.There's alot of anger here,which is understandable.

I'll just leave you with two moral guidlines.

1.Hunting children is bad.

2.Killing children is bad.

Both of these things are considered unacceptable by society.

[DublinDave]

Sorry..."guidelines"....

[Cecil Turner]

If Zimmerman shoots Martin while Martin is straddling and punching him, then Martin collapses on top of Zimmerman, no?

No. There's simply no way of telling what will happen. here a guy takes three steps and collapses (face down, hands underneath) . . . this guy runs out of the store and dies outside.

[Sylvia]

Hey does anyone know how long it takes a concussion to take effect? Do yu black out right away or does it take seconds or minutes?

[Threadkiller]

Does that mean hunting/killing adults is good?

[Stephanie]

Is Sylvia Rita Rudner's mother IRL?

Neurotics build castles in the air, psychotics live in them. My mother cleans them.

Shouldn't Hit be able to definitely say so? He's got the goods on her doesn't he?

[Threadkiller]

Judging by you posts, it appears one can type while suffering a concussion.

[Jim Ryan]

Totally agree, DublinDave. As soon as you find a case of one of those two atrocities, please let us know. Meanwhile, I'll leave you with this:

1. Beating the crap out of someone for no good reason is bad and unacceptable in society.

2. Beating the crap out of someone for no good reason might result in one's own bodily injury or death.

Have a nice day.

[DebinNC]

George Zimmerman's brother, Robert Zimmerman Jr., told Piers Morgan last night:

"You return force with force when somebody assaults you. George was out of breath, he was barely conscious," the brother said. "There would have been George dead if he had not acted decisively and instantaneously in that moment when he was being disarmed."

Add that to his friend Joe Oliver's assertion that the "gun went off" and apparently Zimmerman will claim there was a fight over control of the gun when it fired.

[Ignatz]

--Hey does anyone know how long it takes a concussion to take effect? Do yu black out right away or does it take seconds or minutes?--

I suppose it's too much to hope that this question was prompted because somebody just cold cocked Sylvia for being such damned pain in the ass?

[Sylvia]

Sue- well if they notified the parents why did they list him as a John Doe for three days? Well maybe they did tell the parents that night, I don't know. I'll have to look it up.

[Sylvia]

No, I got hit on the head not too long back. I didn't pass out, but felt stunned. Then I heard later that you can get a concussion without passing out. I was wondering if I had a concussion. I actually felt more stunned a few seconds after I was hit.

[NK]

I know people understand this, but just a reminder. Everything that GZ's brother, father, friends say is intended to influence potential jurors and protect GZ. Everything the race hustlers say is designed to convince potential jurors that GZ is a racsist murderer-- so grain of salt stuff. All this speculation does keep reminding me though - how does the State prove unlawful killing beyond a reasonable doubt? So far-- lots of doubt.

[Cecil Turner]

I'll have to look it up.

Don't hurt yourself Sylvia. Besides, I prefer bozons straight up . . . without a bunch of facts messing up the narrative.

[Janet]

Judging by you posts, it appears one can type while suffering a concussion.

Hahhaahahahaaa..oh my goodness!!! Too funny!