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March 29, 2012

Comments

NK

DebinNC-- hard to speculate what rulings a judge would make without even seeing and indictment. But probably not; the judge would probably allow the defense to submit evidence of previous TMartin fights with strangers in public because that's very relevant to the self-defense claim. But TMartin's 'character' it's just not relevant-- unless the prosecution put in evidence that TMartin is a sweet boy, then that can be rebutted. Somehow, I don't think the State will claim TMartin was a sweet boy.

Steve

"... If Zimmerman is charged, can Trayvon's school discipline records be used at trial?
..."

Why does any of that matter? If Martin was shot at close range the shooting is justified. Anything else and Zimmerman has a problem.

fdcol63

Steve,

I can see a scenario in which Martin is on his knees, with Zimmerman right next to him on the ground on his back, holding Zimmerman's head and beating it into the concrete or ground.

Somehow, Zimmerman pulls his weapon and shoots. There's probably a moment where Martin straightens up on his knees, looking dazed, like "Man, you shot me!", holding his chest or stomach where he was shot.

Zimmerman sees his opportunity to get up. Where the blood spatter would have gone depends on where Martin was shot and how, exactly, Martin was positioned when shot. but there's a variety of scenarios where Zimmerman might not have gottena any or much blood on him.

Once Zimmerman is standing, Martin collapses on the ground, face down, still holding his stomach or chest.

NK

The more I think about this-- what evidence could the State have of an unlawful killing? A body, a gunshot wound forensics, and a shooter with some injuries, who made statements that were exculpatory, and an ambiguous 911 call from a girlfriend. How does the State disprove reasonable doubt? If the State really wanted a conviction they'd build a case with the shooter's history of prior similar criminal conduct an illegally purchased gun, 'looking for trouble' that night, prior arrests for gun violence and use the victim's unblemished record as a quiet and decent citizen to attack the selfdefense claim, and hope the jury's inferences undermine 'reasonable doubt'. Can the State do that here? The State may have a lousy case, even if they believe GZ acted unreasonaably and unlawfully. This is a mess.

Pofarmer

fdcol63, did you actually just try to make sense to steve?

Pofarmer

NK

Is there an actual 911 call from the girlfriend?

Pofarmer

Oh, and I'm thinkin the whole "lousy case" thing, combined with Existing Florida statutes regarding Neighborhood Watch and Self Defense, are why the originally dropped it.

tom maguire

3 mph and 3 feet in a yard; I knew I should have opened Excel.

NK

Po-- you are correct-- purported 911 call-- that may be family BS as well. The night of the shooting, they let GZ go, because they really had nothing to charge him on the spot, and GZ was part of the community, so he wasn't going anywhere. In the 24 days or so after the shooting, the 'investigation' went nowhere, no arrest of GZ, not even a GJ empaneled-- that was the hook that the family lawyers and the race hustlers used to get the media to hump the 'story' and get the State involved. As you know, IMO that 'slow walk' for 24 days was a mistake. BUT-- maybe the slow walk was because the local prosecutor didn't think there was a case, and wanted to wait before announcing that so he didn't look like he was acting too quickly to exonerate GZ. It's a mess.

Steve

from this http://www.mediaite.com/tv/new-trayvon-martin-witness-speaks-to-anderson-cooper-about-night-of-shooting/ it is pretty clear that both were on the ground fighting when the shot was fired. Martin is on top. Drawing the gun is probably something Zimmerman should not have done simply because Martin might have been able to grab it from him and shoot Zimmerman. Maybe even the stand your ground law kicks in with the law saying Zimmerman was not required to get away from Martin before drawing the gun.

Melinda Romanoff

Can Crump get disbarred for this race to victory?

DF

So now using the correct MPH to YPM conversion, hypothetically, let's say that when Zimmerman says "He's running", Martin was close to the location of the car (circled in TM's picture). How long did the rest of the 911 call take - 60 seconds? Even at walking speed, Martin could have been virtually back at the apartment by then, while Zimmerman would (probably?) have barely moved. So the next question is ... is this reconstruction inaccurate in some way, or was Martin lost, or did he just have no intention of going back to the apartment?

Threadkiller

Steve, when a powerful semi AUTOMATIC hand gun is used to murder children, usually the victim, at that close range, flies backward up to 40 feet. This is especially true for large caliber rounds like the 9mm.

I hope that helps your analysis.

Clarice

TM, what a job! Steph, I think your laser following cat analogy was true and hilarious.

Rick Ballard

TK,

I heard it was an automatic assault weapon and he was using red phosphorous (CHEMICAL!!) rounds. It's a wonder there was anything left to identify.

NK

MelR-- the tawana brawley lawyers-- maddox was disbarred for misconduct arising out of the Brawley mess, and Mason was later disbarred for messing with escrow money for indigent clients. mason became a 'minister' and still does the'civil rights' gig (I guess his indigent clients' civil rights didn't matter.) Nothing Crump has done (TMK) yet compares at all with with those monsters did over 23 years ago. BUT THE DAY IS YOUNG.

Steve

"... usually the victim, at that close range, flies backward up to 40 feet. ..."

How does the body end up face down after flying backward for such a distance?

NK

Steve-- thanks for that link. That CNN witness seems to corroborate GZ's statement to the cops, no?

Rick Ballard

I'd also likw to ask all the women here how they would feel if Antonio Banderas was behind them in the dark? Ricardo Montalban? Desi Arnaz?

Melinda Romanoff

What did Dinkins do after Crown Heights again?

Oh, yeah. Retire.

DebinNC

I missed Stephanie's early-hour comment:
..........................................
Why do I picture podesta as a cat following the media's lazer pointer antics on the wall? Zip zip. Zip. Left Right, Up, Down and these ignorant fools are all friggin mesmorized by the shiny object.

Damn but I've had enough of these fools and their OH look shiny!!! to last several lifetimes.

I hope the Mayans were right
............................................
So funny and so true

Steve

"... That CNN witness seems to corroborate GZ's statement to the cops ..."

I don't think we have the transcript of what Zimmerman said to the investigators at the police station. In the police report one of the officers wrote that he did not ask Zimmerman any questions.

Steve

"... What did Dinkins do after Crown Heights again? ..."

Those were some wild times in NYC. Freddy's Fashion Mart is applicable to the theatrics surrounding the Martin killing. Esp since Al Sharpton has gone national.

Threadkiller

I probably shouldn't say this, Steve, but the cops usually stage the body when the perp forgets to put a "drop piece" in the vic's hand, prior to their arrival.

Sylvia


Well it's good to see Tom did a reconstruction of this. I have a reconstruction as well.

Trayvon is on the phone with his girlfiend until 7:16. His girlfriend recounts how Zimmerman comes up on TM in the cutthrough. They have a few words and she hears some shoving sound and the earpiece falls out.

Now Zimmerman is screwed because he did not realize TM was on the phone at that time, because TM had an earpiece and a hoodie on. So all Zimmermans words he recounted are provable lies.

We know the police got there at 7:17.

We have a witness hearing the argument and seeing the scuffle outside his place, all taking place in the same area and within a short time.

We know from TM girlfriend that TM was trying to get home, and that GZ was running after TM trying to confront him. So it is more likely that GZ was the first person to try to detain TM by grabbing him and TM tried to break free but couldn't and punched him.. Or maybe approached TM and got in his face, didn't leave him alone, asking questions until TM pubched him because he was scared.

Either way, they got in a fight and were on the grass. The witness saw most of the struggle and said he did not hardly see any motion and they were clearly on the grass. So GZ saying that TM repeatedly slamming his head on the concrete was a lie.

We had a female witness saying that the person with the white T-shirt was on top. We know from the video that GZ was wearing a white T-shirt under his jacket. We do not see any grass stains on his jacket so his jacket might have fallen off in the struggle. We know TM had a dark gray hoddie. We don't know if his jacket came off in the struggle or the color of his T-shirt.

We have another witness, the guy who said that he did not see that the person who was shot, moved after he was shot. He was in the same face down position. So it's not like GZ had to move him to get up. He said he thinks the person who shot was on top. The guy with the white T-shirt.

We have NO blood on GZ's shirt. If he was under TM ina close struggle there should be some blood spots on his shirt.

We do not know that the blood on GZ's head and face was TM's blood, as it was not tested. We do not see any big injuries on GZ.

No GZ lied from beginning to end. He is probably one of those psychopathic guys who had fantasies about murder. Kind of a budding John Wayne Gacy type. And he took his opportunity.


yeah that will happen

OMG! That's all I can say, OMG!

Strawman Cometh

Speaking of cats, Tk and Rick are having too much fun with Steve the mouse.

Ignatz

I know it will be impossible not to discuss this non-national story at all, but could we have an agreement from everyone, including the trolls, that from now on regarding this story no one will start a sentence with "If....", "What may have happened...", "As seems likely..." or "I know we don't have enough evidence to form an opinion, but..."?

NK

MelR--Dinkins? Lovely man, a very terrible and dangerous mayor. But I will say this, during Guiliani's 8 years, Dinkins could have caused alot of race baiting trouble. He didn't-- I respect and appreciate that.

Steve

"... He said he thinks the person who shot was on top. The guy with the white T-shirt. ..."

How does Martin end up face down if Zimmerman was on top when he shot? And how does Zimmerman's back get wet and grass stained as the police report says?

Janet

his jacket might have fallen off in the struggle.

I wish you hadn't mentioned that. :(

Ignatz

New one for the banned list,
"I have a reconstruction as well..."

Pofarmer

Awwww, c'mon Ignatz. I gotta go to work, anyway. dang it.

NK

PS-- I was in a meeting with a big real estate macha during the Crown heights riots when he took a call from Dinkins who was in a car driving to Brooklyn. The macha told Dinkins politely but firmly that order had to be restored, that people were afraid that mob rule had taken over. The call ended, the Macha looked at us and said to us about Dinkins-- lovely man, doesn't have a clue about what's really going on. They were good friends politically and socially.

Sylvia

Also I think GZ's 911 phone call ended at 7:14, where he started getting out of his car and following. We have the girlfriend TM phone call ending at 7:16, and she heard the verbal confrontation right before the end of the call.

So we have 7:14 to 7:16, that GZ had to find TM again. Like Tom said, a person can walk 30 years a minutes. So they walked about 60 yards from the cutthrough. It could actually be closer to a minute gap, the end of 7:14 and the beginning of 7:16.

Actually 30 or 60 yards makes sense. That seems about the distance. If Gz actually ran he could catch up. Once TM got to the cutrough he probably felt safe and slowed down while GZ ran. Also according the the gf, it sounds like TM stopped at some point and turned around and saw GZ and spoke to GZ from a distance. While they were speaking, it seems like GZ approached TM and tried to grab him, because the phone went dead then.

No everything GZ said was a lie. The guy should be arrested for first degree murder. I think it was planned.

Melinda Romanoff

!esusegleteB !esuegleteB !eseugleteB

Extraneus

A 9mm round has a muzzle energy of about 380 ft-lbs force. If shot with a hollow-point bullet, which is extremely likely since no one would carry a fully-jacketed bullet for self-defense, the body would have absorbed almost all of this as impact energy. If Martin was on his knees and the shot was to either side of the middle of his center of mass, I think he could easily have been knocked back and to the side, landing face down. Surely in that scenario, his hands could have ended up under his body, either from clutching his chest or just because they ended up there.

Sylvia

"How does Martin end up face down if Zimmerman was on top when he shot?"

I was wondering that myself. According to the witness he did not see them well. I wonder if GZ was on top and TM was face down in the grass. Which explains why they wer so hard to indentify. Then GZ reached around and shot TM in the chest. That may be why GZ has no blood spatter on him and according to the witness, that TM did not move after he was shot, because GZ was sitting on top and holding him down.

" And how does Zimmerman's back get wet and grass stained as the police report says?"

Well they were struggling and maybe at some point GZ was rolled over on the grass. Maybe his jacket came off which is why we don't see grass stains on his jacket.


Threadkiller

Steve, this is from the police report:

"the infant, after receiving multiple rounds to the chest over a sustained period of time, crumpled forward due to the weight of his adult sized gold bridgework."

Sue

Seriously? His girlfriend hears the scuffle, knows Trayvon is scared and tells absolutely no one? Does this even make sense?

Chubby

((In the police report one of the officers wrote that he did not ask Zimmerman any questions))

so what? that doesn't exclude that other officers did.

if you have it as a certain fact that no officer asked Z questions, by all means post it.

anything less is malicious bs and doesn't serve the purpose of justice

Steve

"... The call ended, the Macha looked at us and said to us about Dinkins-- lovely man, doesn't have a clue about what's really going on. ..."

considering the city got thru the 70s - 90s without more riots maybe Dinkins had the right policy. The Giulliani approach would have made things worse back then.

Sylvia

Extraneaus -we have the witness who heard the shot. They were both on the ground in a struggle when the shot went off.

Sue- the gf story is confirmed by phone records. Apparently the police never contacted her to get her story.

Sue

Look, I've watched enough NCIS and SVU to know that the police officers do not ask questions. The very special agents and detectives do. Once a detective arrives on scene, the police officers won't ask questions of the "suspect". They will canvas the neighborhood and question witnesses.

Crystal Mangum

fnally! Thanks you, sylvia.

Clarice

Oh, God, Sylvia's back-Call her friend Hit! And she's too bizarre even for Steve!

Sue

Sylvia,

The story is confirmed by Trayvon's lawyer. But going with the story as being true, why the hell didn't she notify someone that Trayvon was scared and in what sounded like a fight?

Clarice

Don't kill me. I posted this thread to the Tatler . I hope that doesn't draw even more cuckoo flies.http://pjmedia.com/tatler/2012/03/30/mapping-the-trayvon-martingeorge-zimmerman-story/

Sylvia

How did Crytal Mangum know that the bathroom she said would have giz by the toilet, right where she said it would be, belonged to the guy she picked out? How did she even know which roomate used which bathroom. A little coincidental isn't it?

Ignatz

--!esusegleteB !esuegleteB !eseugleteB--

LOL, Mel.

DublinDave

"I'd also likw to ask all the women here how they would feel if Antonio Banderas was behind them in the dark?"

If you want to imagine what it would be like to have Antonia Banderas behind you in the dark,Rick,work away.

It must have been truly terifying for Tray to have an armed man hunt him.The "fight-or-flight" response kicked in but sadly it was the wrong one.

Sad day when a grown man can hunt and excecute a child and walk free.

Melinda Romanoff

One little "u" misplaced. Dang.

Sylvia

Sue- I'm not sure. I think she did contact the family, and the family went to the police and the police refused to pull phone records. So family attorney had to pull the phone records themself.

Sue

Sad day when a grown man can hunt and excecute a child and walk free.

Even sadder when your girlfriend waits 3 weeks to tell anyone she was on the phone with you and didn't tell anyone.

NK

steve@1030-- uh-- no. NYC got into a mess because it was run by Tamany for 100 years, and when Tamany dissolved, it was run by the Liberals Lindsay, Beame, Koch, Dinkins, Holtzman, and on and on and on. That toxic combination made NYC unlivable-- Dinkins called it 'ungovernable' in 1991. NYC was saved by its citizens, the WS derivative and high speed trading, and..... Giuliani.

Sue

Sylvia,

I'm not sure either. But what I am sure of is if she told someone that night, they did not notify Trayvon's parents.

Rick Ballard

"Does this even make sense?"

Sue,

Shhh... This is a careful experiment concerning the effects of sylvan bozons emitted from a block of solid moronium upon the thought processes emanations of a Ronulan mind [?}.

Sylvia

I don't even know what Tom is talking about with his post. According the distance covered, it makes sense to me that GZ caught up to TM, and that was about the correct distance they should be from the car. Tom wrote that whole long post for nothing.

Janet

Call her friend Hit!

Speaking of Hit...my daughter asked me who my FB friend was that had a safety pin in his nose! Hah! Doesn't want me hangin' with sketchy people!

Chubby

((One little "u" misplaced. Dang.))

which did not spoil the funny one little bit

echo Ignatz

Sue

Rick,

I know. I should know from Duke days not to try to reason with Sylvia. I will stop before Clarice gets hauled in for having pistolas in DC.

Sue

Janet,

That's funny. She probably thought you had gone over to the dark side. ::grin::

Ignatz

--Steve, this is from the police report:

"the infant, after receiving multiple rounds to the chest over a sustained period of time, crumpled forward due to the weight of his adult sized gold bridgework."--

Since the speculation and flat out false claims, like DD's and Sylvia's idiocies, won't end, I hope TK feels well enough today to provide us with more of his ballistics expertise and maintains his inside source to the real police reports.

Sylvia

First of all Sue, the aprents were not told right away that TM was dea, because they had him listed as a John Doe for three days.

And we don't know when the gf told the family. It could have been right away. According the the family the police refused to interview her. She must have told them a while ago if they pulled phone records, as it takes a while to get a subpoeana and have the records pulled, if you are not the police.

Steve

"... it was run by the Liberals Lindsay, Beame, Koch, Dinkins, Holtzman, and on and on and on. That toxic combination made NYC unlivable-- ... "

Holtzman was my congresswoman in Flatbush. Followed by Stephen Solarz. I kind of liked the city back then. Sounds crazy to say, but it was not as crowded as it is now. I still think things would have been worse if Dinkins was not mayor.
And I think there are lessons to keep in mind for when things get real bad in the period we are heading into right now.

Rob Crawford

podesta:

maybe Zimmerman should have manned up and fought

The cry of the thug.

The only people I've ever heard take this position are thugs. Zimmerman didn't want a fight; he didn't start a fight. A thug started the fight, and thugs around the country are rallying for the "right" to be thugs without having to risk their targets fighting back.

Last year here in Ohio, a couple of coke-addled thugs attacked a guy while he was getting gas for his car. He shot one of them, then was able to get away in his car. The police even returned the shooter's gun (a couple of months later, but, still...). The reaction of the thugs? "We were just looking for a fist fight! What kind of p*ssy pulls a gun during a fist fight?!"

It never occurred to them that he had no interest in being in a fight -- but maybe it will now.

Rob Crawford

Steve:
If Zimmerman is standing at any point with his gun drawn, he would not be justified in shooting Martin.

Please refrain from making further statements from total ignorance.

Thank you.

Rob Crawford

And for the cries of "where's Martin's blood":

Reality is not Hollywood. Blood packs are specifically engineered to be dramatic.

Rob Crawford

How does the body end up face down after flying backward for such a distance?

Oh God, you actually believed what was an obviously tongue-in-cheek statement?

Rob Crawford

I'd also likw to ask all the women here how they would feel if Antonio Banderas was behind them in the dark? Ricardo Montalban? Desi Arnaz?

Desi was apparently quite the womanizer, to Lucy's despair. I wonder how much input he had into the character of James T. Kirk?

Clarice

My pistolas are cocked. I am furious that Sylvia is posting garbage long discredited here and anyone who encourages her to continue to make this thread unreadable and useless gets it from me.Single neuron Steve and Dublin bozo are more than enough distraction from rational analysis.

Rob Crawford

It must have been truly terifying for Tray to have an armed man hunt him.

"Tray" had no idea Zimmerman was armed, because Zimmerman was carrying concealed.

Sylvia

Clarice, or maybe Tom, who knows. I am quoting from the eye witness. I challenge to come up with any thing I said that is not true.

Jim Ryan

Why didn't Tray know about the gun, Rob? Doesn't he watch the news like DublinDave?

Another Bob

@Extraneus | March 30, 2012 at 10:27 AM:

That isn't how muzzle energy works. But if you're trying to 'help' Steve, disregard...

Rob Crawford

Good point, Jim. I hadn't considered that.

Sylvia

Here's another conspiracy theory. There's something odd about all of GZ's "friends". What kind of friends were they?

If I were the police I would look into whether GZ was involved in some sort of second amendment militia wannabe type group. And maybe had friends in the police department as well.

Rick Ballard

Complete video re-enactment

jim crane

Sometimes bad things happen to good people.

Janet

Hah, Rick! I noticed that nobody's jacket came off. hmmmmmm

centralcal

oh boy, she's back and just as insane as ever!

Sylvia

As to the Skittles and Iced TEa, I read that they were found in GZ's pockets. Although I don't know if that is reliable info.

Stephanie

I challenge to come up with any thing I said that is not true.

First of all Sue, the aprents were not told right away that TM was dea, because they had him listed as a John Doe for three days.

What did I win?

That Sylvia will leave, please please please.

That trope was shown to be false days ago.

Ignatz

I loved the running commentary at that link, Rick.

Sylvia

And as to the struggle starting, there are a couple different scenarios.

Let's say that TM did punch GZ first, just to get GZ out of his face. Then GZ could run, or TM could run. In an ordinary situation, that would be what would happen. And that would be the end of it.

However, they ended up in a struggle. So if no one ran, someone had to try to capture and HOLD ON to the the other person. I think it more likely it was GZ, since GZ was in hot pursuit, it was GZ who tried to hold onto TM. And do his "citizen's arrest.

So someone had to tackle and try and take down someone. Even if TM did that, it would be likley that TM slammed GZ down on the ground and would then just run. It does not make sense that he would try to stay there.

So logic fits that GZ took down TM and then tried to "arrest" him. Someone had to purposely jump on top. We should look into whether Zimmerman had any wrestling background. But he probably tried to get TM on his stomach. TM striggles and maybe tried to turn around and GZ shot him.

DublinDave

I'm distracting from the thread so i'll stop posting for awhile.There's alot of anger here,which is understandable.

I'll just leave you with two moral guidlines.

1.Hunting children is bad.

2.Killing children is bad.

Both of these things are considered unacceptable by society.

DublinDave

Sorry..."guidelines"....

Cecil Turner

If Zimmerman shoots Martin while Martin is straddling and punching him, then Martin collapses on top of Zimmerman, no?

No. There's simply no way of telling what will happen. here a guy takes three steps and collapses (face down, hands underneath) . . . this guy runs out of the store and dies outside.

Sylvia

Hey does anyone know how long it takes a concussion to take effect? Do yu black out right away or does it take seconds or minutes?

Threadkiller

Does that mean hunting/killing adults is good?

Stephanie

Is Sylvia Rita Rudner's mother IRL?

Neurotics build castles in the air, psychotics live in them. My mother cleans them.

Shouldn't Hit be able to definitely say so? He's got the goods on her doesn't he?

Threadkiller

Judging by you posts, it appears one can type while suffering a concussion.

Jim Ryan

Totally agree, DublinDave. As soon as you find a case of one of those two atrocities, please let us know. Meanwhile, I'll leave you with this:

1. Beating the crap out of someone for no good reason is bad and unacceptable in society.

2. Beating the crap out of someone for no good reason might result in one's own bodily injury or death.

Have a nice day.

DebinNC

George Zimmerman's brother, Robert Zimmerman Jr., told Piers Morgan last night:

"You return force with force when somebody assaults you. George was out of breath, he was barely conscious," the brother said. "There would have been George dead if he had not acted decisively and instantaneously in that moment when he was being disarmed."

Add that to his friend Joe Oliver's assertion that the "gun went off" and apparently Zimmerman will claim there was a fight over control of the gun when it fired.

Ignatz

--Hey does anyone know how long it takes a concussion to take effect? Do yu black out right away or does it take seconds or minutes?--

I suppose it's too much to hope that this question was prompted because somebody just cold cocked Sylvia for being such damned pain in the ass?

Sylvia

Sue- well if they notified the parents why did they list him as a John Doe for three days? Well maybe they did tell the parents that night, I don't know. I'll have to look it up.

Sylvia

No, I got hit on the head not too long back. I didn't pass out, but felt stunned. Then I heard later that you can get a concussion without passing out. I was wondering if I had a concussion. I actually felt more stunned a few seconds after I was hit.

NK

I know people understand this, but just a reminder. Everything that GZ's brother, father, friends say is intended to influence potential jurors and protect GZ. Everything the race hustlers say is designed to convince potential jurors that GZ is a racsist murderer-- so grain of salt stuff. All this speculation does keep reminding me though - how does the State prove unlawful killing beyond a reasonable doubt? So far-- lots of doubt.

Cecil Turner

I'll have to look it up.

Don't hurt yourself Sylvia. Besides, I prefer bozons straight up . . . without a bunch of facts messing up the narrative.

Janet

Judging by you posts, it appears one can type while suffering a concussion.

Hahhaahahahaaa..oh my goodness!!! Too funny!

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