Last Map Of The Retreat At Twin Lakes

Time to pull out the Etch-a-Sketch and try to pin down the spot where George Zimmerman killed Trayvon Martin.

As resources we have:

Google Maps and Zillow;

Zimmerman's call to 911 [transcript], in which he gives directions to his parked car;

The City of Sanford initial police report, which indicates the police found the body in the walkway between 1231 Twin Trees Lane and 2821 Retreat View Circle;

film footage the night of the crime and following day from Fox Orlando;

a neighborhood shot from the Tampa Bay Times;

and MapQuest, which locates a 7-Eleven at 1125 Rinehart Rd, Sanford FL (GoogleMaps consistently overlooks this).  That is about 3/4 mile from the Retreat at Twin Lakes, and the logical approach would be by way of the main gate.

The gist - Trayvon Martin seemed to have been on a logical path home, which would have ended in the back yard of the home he was visiting after passing down an open walkway.  He was roughly a hundred yards from home when he was shot.

George Zimmerman parked near the intersection of a pedestrian walkway and Twin Trees Lane.  He was roughly thirty yards from his car when he fired the fatal shot.

Lets start with a map of the immediate area, with some cryptic notes attached:

The main gate is at the top, cleverly labeled "Main Gate".  Trayvon Martin would have come through that gate, past the clubhouse across on Twin Trees Lane.  His final destination was the home he was visiting on Retreat View Circle a couple of townhouses down from 2821 Retreat View Circle, marked in red.

The blue circle is the likely location of George Zimmerman's car.  Let's follow along on the 911 transcript as he describes his location to the police, with my notes embedded:

Zimmerman: If they come in through the gate, tell them to go straight past the club house, and uh, straight past the club house and make a left [onto Twin Trees Lane], and then they go past the mailboxes, that's my truck...[unintelligible]

Dispatcher: What address are you parked in front of?

Zimmerman: I don't know, it's a cut through so I don't know the address.

The obvious cut through area is circled in blue.  By eerie coincidence, the Google Maps satellite picked up a truck parked there.

Now, from the cut through area, Martin had three logical paths home.  He could have continued down Twin Trees Lane, cut through further down, and gotten home.  Or, he could have taken the cut through halfway across, to the open commons area overlooked by townhouses on each side and gone down towards home (that is the highlighted blue path).  Or he could have taken the cut through all the way across and gone down Retreat View Circle, ending up at his front door. 

And keep in mind - although unpaved, there are passages between each townhouse that would allow a pedestrian to move from the commons area to either Twin Trees Lane or Retreat View Circle. Foreshadowing!

So what did Zimmerman see Martin doing?  After Martin reportedly [but no verbal contact on the 911 tape?] walked by to "check me out" we hear this:

Zimmerman... Shit he's running.

Dispatcher: He's running? Which way is he running?

Zimmerman: Down towards the other entrance to the neighborhood.

Dispatcher: Which entrance is that that he's heading towards?

Zimmerman: The back entrance...fucking [unintelligible]

Dispatcher: Are you following him? Zimmerman: Yeah

Dispatcher: Ok, we don't need you to do that. Zimmerman: Ok

Dispatcher: Alright sir what is your name? Zimmerman: George...He ran.

You can trust me or look it up, but the back entrance is down near the home Martin was visiting.

If Martin disappeared I infer he did not run down Twin Trees Lane.  I conclude he headed along the cut through (left to right on the picture) and then... well, we don't know.

Zimmerman presumably followed along the cut through; given the location of the final confrontation, it seems likely he headed down along the blue line marking Trayvon's path through the commons area.

So how did they meet up again?  That would be a key question, and any answer would be speculative.  However, since Martin was ahead of Zimmerman and headed for home, it seems likely that Martin doubled back or hid somewhere (or Zimmerman outran him?  Really?)

One *POSSIBILITY* : Martin took the top cut through all the way to Retreat View Circle, then cut back into the commons area just below 2821 Retreat View Circle (marked in red).  A second *GUESS* is that Martin went down the commons area (along the blue line), cut left towards Retreat View Circle just below 2821 (effectively hiding from the view of anyone coming down the commons area), then doubled back.  Or, for our friends on the left, maybe he made it to the commons area before curling up in the fetal position in terror, awaiting execution by the scary man with a GUN.  Maybe.

Zimmerman must have made a bit of progress down the blue line if he had time to turn back towards his truck before Martin overtook him.  However, based on the map scale we are talking distances of 25-50 yards (a person walking a desultory 3 miles per hour covers about 30 88 yards per minute; adrenaline might add to that, but caution might subtract.)

Per the police report, the body was reported in the grass between 1231 Twin Trees Lane and 2821 Retreat View Circle.  A straight line between those two would have the body slightly down from where I located it with the red circle.  The difference is about 20 yards, but since my final spot is a bit closer to our guess for Zimmerman's SUV, it is arguably more favorable, so let me go through my arcane reasoning.

This background story on the Retreat at Twin Lakes from the Tampa Bay Times includes a photo which ought to be the commons area highlighted with the blue arrow from my map above:

Do note the left-to-right downhill grade and especially, the pooper-scooper doggie bag holder.

Now, here are some stills from the Fox Orlando footage.  I assert, using my imagination and keying off of the pooper scooper, that the Fox camera was located on Retreat View Circle at the red "Fox 35" label, looking along the red arrow towards the crime scene.  Here we go:

The pooper scooper is obvious, as is the sidewalk; that ought to be Twin Trees Lane in the background.  Another shot:

The back of the pooper scooper is visible; the sidewalk pattern near the street jibes nicely with the Fox35 location I marked.

Finally, the Fox report concludes with a chat with Trayvon's dad and his significant other; they take a quick walk down the commons area, turn, and look dramatically at... well, not much, but the situation strongly suggests it is where Martin was killed.

That is just down from the walkway.

That is plenty for now; even more can be gleaned from the Fox 35 video but it all leads to this location.

Eventually, I want to poke holes in the story told by George Zimmerman's father to Fox, as well as question the police version of events as recounted by Trayvon Martin's dad to the WaPo.

However, a perusal of the basic geography says two things: *IF* Zimmerman left his SUV as I have placed it, the idea that Zimmerman cornered Martin is hard to picture.  There are lots of open spaces, lots of ways from A to B, lots of places that are accessible by foot but not so much by car - running away with commitment and purpose should have been a fool-proof strategy.  If, that is, calling 911 or screaming for help was for some reason off the board.  The idea that Zimmerman overtook a scared kid in flight is hard to sustain.

That said, what if Zimmerman parked a bit down Twin Trees Lane towards the informal, unmarked cut through.  Now after he sees Martin run and gets out of his car, maybe he heads up the commons area while Martin was headed down it.  I score that as 'hmmm', because the police surely know where they recovered his car [LATE UPDATE: Zimmerman's wife collected the car and drove it home that night so the cops were left guessing].and the revised location doesn't jibe with the 911 call (he couldn't see the club house from down on Twin Trees, and the mailboxes he mentioned are central for the complex and near the clubhouse).  Still, cars can roll - we hope the police have thought this through.

LET ME ADD:  The elder Mr. Zimmerman describes Zimmerman's path as basically crossing the "T" - he purportedly entered the cut through near where I located the SUV, followed it from left to right to the Fox35 marking to confirm the street address, then doubled back, whereupon he met Martin.

As a plausibility check, Zimmerman claimed to be checking for an address.  It should be true that the townhouses to Zimmerman's left as he walked towards Retreat View Circle were unnumbered, since he was looking at the backs of the houses.  Heckuva job by the neighborhood patrol - did he really only learn that night that the cut through opened onto Retreat View Circle?

"He called the non-emergency number first, and they asked him where he was, because he was at the rear of the town houses and there was no street sign," said Robert

That is consistent with being on Twin Trees Lane, at the back of the townhouses that face Retreat View Circle.

"He lost sight of the individual, he continued to walk down the same sidewalk to the next street, so he could get an address for the police," he said.

"He went to the next street, realized where he was and was walking to his vehicle. It's my understanding, at that point, Trayvon Martin walked up to him and asked him, 'Do you have a [expletive] problem?' George said, 'No, I don't have a problem,' and started to reach for his cell phone...  at that point, he (Martin) was punching him in the nose, his nose was broken and he was knocked to the concrete."

HA! The Fox interviewer asks about two gunshots on the 911 tape; the father says that the police have confirmed that the first gunshot is a slamming door, and only one shot was fired.  His cheap shot - nobody heard two shots except the Martin family lawyers.  Uh huh, and the NY Times.  Well, nobody likes an I told you so, which is why nobody likes me.  Just like they told me they wouldn't.

THE OTHER FATHER:  Brevity another day; here is Trayvon Martin's father recreating the police version of Zimmerman's alibi told to him a few days after the killing.  Unless he had notes I wonder how much detail he was taking on, since he had to be shaken up.  Regardless, the police told a tale of two encounters:

According to Tracy Martin, the Sanford, Fla., detective recounted this sequence of events: Trayvon Martin walked up to Zimmerman’s vehicle and asked why he was following him. Zimmerman denied following the youth and rolled up the car window. Minutes after Trayvon walked away, Zimmerman got out of his vehicle.

Surely that would be on the 911 tape where Zimmerman says Martin is "checking me out"?  But I don't hear it.  Mute button, bad audio, BS?  Why would Zimmerman make that up - he had to know he had been calling 911? Oh, well, head trauma, PTSD.  Or, why would the cops make that up - to get dad to back down?  How's that working?

Then came the second encounter, according to Tracy Martin’s recollection of the detective’s account. Trayvon Martin appeared from behind a building in Zimmerman’s gated community, approached him and demanded, “What’s your problem, homie?”

When Zimmerman replied that he didn’t have a problem, Martin said, “You do now.” The unarmed teenager hit Zimmerman, knocked him to the ground, pinned him down and told him to “shut the [expletive] up.”

During the beating, Zimmerman pulled his gun and fired one shot at close range into Martin’s chest. “You got me,” the teenager said, falling backward.

"You got me"?  They lost me.  Save it for the screenplay.

 IF I WERE THE KING OF FLORIDA:  If I ruled Florida, I would say Ixnay on the pro-ImmermanZay leaks, and let's leak all the pro-Martin stuff.  That ought to quiet the mob and assure them that We Get It.  Well, as King, I Get It.

Later I would let the professionals do their job, which will probably include pulling the rug out from under the pro-Martin side.

For example, let's play along and pretend that we believe this mortician because we figure he is so honest and stupid that he would come out publicly in support of Zimmerman if that was where the chips fell.  Even so, his claim that he found no signs of a scuffle on Martin does not prove no scuffle occurred; it just proves Zimmerman didn't fight back effectively.  If there are other, more compelling witnesses maybe this guy could ice the cake; otherwise, he won't be nearly enough.  (And where is the medical examiner?  Surely the Sanford PD has a serious report - if it is consistent with this story, why hasn't it been leaked yet?)

 

Comments

[Sylvia]

NZ, by proving that everything GZ said was a lie.

GZ is screwed because he didn't realize TM was on the phone with his girlfriend when it started.

[Ignatz]

--I was wondering if I had a concussion. I actually felt more stunned a few seconds after I was hit.--

Guess we should have known it would be impossible to make fiction stranger than truth with Sylvia, TK.

[Steve]

"... how does the State prove unlawful killing beyond a reasonable doubt? So far-- lots of doubt. ..."

by determining how far the tip of the gun was from Martin when the shot was fired.
Close - justified. 3 or more feet away - not justified.

[Rick Ballard]

Ignatz,

Make sure to bookmark this thread. It will make a fine rebuttal should "Nobody could possibly be that stupid." be advanced in argument.

[Enlightened]

IMO -Girlfriends story is pure bullshit and cannot be corroborated by anyone.

By looking at TM's tweets roughly an hour before this took place, it is obvious he had a filthy mouth.

I think the conversation went more like this: (ALL HYPOTHETICAL and I am not trying to insult anyone, I'm just mimicking his tweets)

TM: Some fatass f**kin homie is watchin me or somethin.
GF: Who is it?
TM: I don't f**kin know what his mutha-f**kin problem is. Some fat f**kin white dude on the phone an lookin at me.
GF: Maybe he's callin the police
TM: F**k that. I'm gonna see if I can lose him.
GF: Just stay away from him - might be a cop or somethin
TM: He don't look like no cop. Shit it's rainin - I get back at ya, I need to get out this rain

Call dropped and picked up again at 7:12

TM: I think I lost that f**ker.
GF: So when you comin home?
TM: I dunno, when I can go back to school I guess. I hate this f**kin place I'm so f**kin bored. Shit - mutha-f**kers right in front of me.
GF: Just walk away
TM: Naw, I ain't walkin away from this fat f**k, he don't scare me.
GF: Tray - just leave it alone
TM: You got a f**kin problem homie? (to GZ)
GZ: No, I don't have a problem
TM: Who you talkin to and why you followin me?
GZ: What are you doin out here - you live here?
TM: Whack! You got a problem now f**ker...

Her audio on this story is so not how TM talked and carried on.

We know that GZ has called 911 numerous times to report suspicious activity in that complex. And the ONLY time there was a physical encounter was this incident.

1) I do believe the complex residents know who he is, and the younger residents most probably knew that if he was walking around that they should mind their P and Q's.
2) I don't think TM knew who GZ was - but I bet he knew there was an asshole in the complex that calls the cops alot
3) I do believe TM was the aggressor and I think the GF call supports that - she told him to run away and he said no, and she heard him ask GZ what's his problem.

Further - IMO - A 17yo doesn't just bounce up at about 7pm on a Sunday rainy night and say - hey bro, I'm going to the store. Although he would tell someone that to cover up what he was planning to do. TM waited until the adults in his house were gone before he left the house and it was dark out - leading me to believe he had an ulterior motive for "going to the store". I think he went outside to maybe smoke a joint, or a cigarette, or to drink some alcohol. When I was his age I always told my parents I was going to the store - and then got high along the way. Obviously his tox reports will tell that tale. It is not uncommon for a bored teenager to pilfer some of the parents alcohol, pour it into a can of tea, or a bottle of OJ or a coke can etc - I did all the time. Would be interesting to know if the tea can was open and if it had any alcohol residue in it...I do not think TM was drug dealing (not his home turf so probably noone driving out to Sanford for their drugs)and I don't think he was fixing to burglarize (again, not his home turf and no real reason to burglarize just cuz he was bored - I don't buy that)

I do think he was pissed at GZ for busting him getting high (and he was just suspended for a the baggy so maybe pot was an issue with family)and he was going to intimidate him to STFU so Dad wouldn't find out.

[Cecil Turner]

Close - justified. 3 or more feet away - not justified.

Are you suggesting you're going to become a proponent of "justified" if forensics determines the shot was fired at contact to point-blank range? (Because I certainly will change my opinion to "unjustified" if it comes out much farther . . . I just don't think that's very likely.)

[Steve]

"... We know that GZ has called 911 numerous times to report suspicious activity in that complex. And the ONLY time there was a physical encounter was this incident. ..."

also, it makes no sense for someone who is armed to start a fight with another person.

[Extraneus]

That isn't how muzzle energy works.

Please tell us how it works, Bob.

[NK]

GZ's 46 calls to 911-- that's is something I've said the police were obligated to check out in evaluating his self-defense claim. 46 calls?-- was he a 'wannabe' a 'busybody' a 'kook.' The cops needed to review the nature and timing of those calls and interview 911 dispatcher who took them. But what if the cops did just that? what if that inquiry showed that GZ was factual in his reports, polite and always cooperated with the 911 dispatcher and never confronted a suspicious person-- until that night. What if the inquiry showed GZ was an exemplary nabe watch guy? Again, proving unlawful killing beyond a reasonable doubt may have looked impossible to the DA.

[Enlightened]

I think TomM may have missed this and it might make the route Trayvon took change:

GZ 911 call - He said that TM was looking right at him, and then he said TM was "coming right towards me". Then TM ran after that. So again, for me - this contradicts Crump saying "he ran to get out of the rain" - he ONLY ran once he knew GZ had spotted him.

If there was a first encounter at the SUV - since TM was coming towards him from main gate - that make sense. Then TM ran up the cut. But instead of running all the way through the cut to Retreat View Circle and his front door - he doubled around (I think he cut though the 1st block of homes up towards RVC, then came back to the cut between the 1st and 2nd block and came back to the cut to get to his back door and there was GZ. I think TM made a purposeful decision not to run on the main street which is lighted, and which also would be where his Dad showed up after dinner.

[Pofarmer]

Ignatz,

Make sure to bookmark this thread. It will make a fine rebuttal should "Nobody could possibly be that stupid." be advanced in argument.

I'm almost afraid to reply, in case teh stupid starts oozing through my keyboard.

[Sue]

I said from the beginning it was a shame a young man was dead, regardless of his color. Then Obama chimed in and I started getting defensive, simply because I don't look like Obama. Well, his black half, I do look like his white half. And then Sharpton, et al showed up and now I'm hoping for the white hispanic to be not guilty of anything. And a young man is still dead. Thanks a lot Obama and your race hustlers.

[Soviet of Washington]

Podesta above says "if there was a gash several inches long it certainly would have required stitches".

Uh, no. I cut my scalp with a several inch gash just above were Mr. Zimmerman did several years ago by walking into the sharp edge of wooden beam without needing stitches. Lots of blood vesicles in the scalp so you can create a fair amount of blood without going through enough of the scalp layers to need stitches (I didn't).

[NK]

Enlightened@1240-- OK .. and then...?

[Sue]

Okay, Trayvon's father said he came home that night from eating dinner and went to bed, thinking Trayvon was out with an older, responsible cousin. I'm learning that the killing was somewhere close to the house where Trayvon and his father were staying. Did daddy not notice police when he came in from eating dinner? I believe in the People interview he claimed he was home around 10:00 that night.

[Porchlight]

Bookmarked for future reference, Rick.

Surely someone is sockpuppeting Sylvia. I mean I remember sylvia craziness from way back, but this is parody....right?

[Sue]

Something else the reporter from Orlando 35 told Hannity yesterday. She gets the impression from the police that there is a witness no one has talked to but the police. A "surprise" witness I believe were her words.

[Sue]

Something about the father's story isn't adding up. If he had returned from eating out when he says he did, why didn't he see the police tape and wonder what was going on, yards away from his front door?

[Porchlight]

Enlightened, I also think the GF's story is bunk.

[Threadkiller]

This just in. Trayvon, as he fell forward, texted this to his girlfriend.

"uuggggggh"

[Jane (Where is Jon Corzine?)]

I'm pretty sure I can't bear to read all this drivel.

But ya gotta love Dublin Dave now calling Trayvon "a child". And then comes Sylvia. Holy cow.

I'd also likw to ask all the women here how they would feel if Antonio Banderas was behind them in the dark? Ricardo Montalban? Desi Arnaz?

It depends on where I was going. If I was going to a JOM meet-up and Antonio Banderas was behind me, I'd ask him to join me cause he would have a really good time.

If I was going to pick up my winning Mega millions winnings and Ricardo Montalban was behind me, I'd ask if his Bentley was for sale because I might just be in the market.

And if I was going home and Ricky Ricardo was behind me, I'd know I was actually really really going home.

[Sue]

Tracy Martin to People.

I had gone out for dinner," says Tracy, "and when I got home, Trayvon wasn't there. I tried calling his cell phone several times, and it went straight to voicemail. I wasn't that worried, because he had been spending time with my 20-year-old nephew who was a responsible young man. There wasn't a panic that he wasn't at home. I figured that they had gone to the movies, because they had said they might. So I laid down, thinking they would show up later."

Something isn't right.

[Sue]

And if I was going home and Ricky Ricardo was behind me, I'd know I was actually really really going home.

LOL.

[Porchlight]

Sue,

Also, why did the father think that Trayvon was out with the older cousin? Didn't the younger brother tell him "no, Trayvon went to the store and never came back"?

Even if the father didn't see any evidence of police activity in the complex when he returned from dinner, I don't understand where the "older cousin" story came from.

Unless maybe Trayvon *was* out with an older cousin earlier in the evening....getting into trouble.

Going to be interesting if a 711 surveillance tape surfaces later.

[Sue]

There might be a back alley that Martin would take to enter a garage area and he would not have seen the front of his house.

[Stephanie]

"uuggggggh"

That's thug for "you shot me"

[DebinNC]

lol, Jane

[Porchlight]

But what about the little brother, Sue? If Trayvon went out to the store for Skittles and iced tea and never returned, as the story goes, why didn't the little brother call the father? Did the little brother notice all the flashing lights and sirens and think nothing of it? Even though Trayvon still hadn't returned?

[Ignatz]

If I was going to pick up my winning Mega millions winnings and Ricardo Montalban was behind me, I'd ask if his Bentley was for sale because I might just be in the market.--

Sorry to disillusion you Jane, But Ricardo drove a Chrysler Cordoba upholstered in "soft [I could have sworn it was 'fine'] Corinthian leather".

[Steve]

"... Did daddy not notice police when he came in from eating dinner? ..."

A sad part of all this is that the father sounds well spoken in the radio interview I heard last night. And I actually think you can make a case that Trayvon had some smarts based on his having an active twitter and facebook account. Even his confronting Zimmerman on his own indicates someone who thinks he belongs and can communicate his POV. He might have actually responded well to positive messages from black community leaders that you should hold off from punching people you do not know in the head.

[Another Bob]

Extraneus | March 30, 2012 at 12:30 PM:

Easy peasy.

Quite true - a typical 9mm round has 300+ ft/lb of muzzle energy, a +P around 400.

But that force doesn't act on the body in a way that pushes the whole body around, it simply punches its hole and creates its wound cavity.

The "blown backward" thing is a figment of movies.

That's the only point I'm making. (And only because there's enough fiction about guns floating around.)

[Porchlight]

I always remembered it as "rich Corinthian leather," Ignatz.

Young Ricardo was quite handsome:

[NK]

hey---- mature ricard was handsome as well-- except for the toupe.

[Chubby]

((Something about the father's story isn't adding up. If he had returned from eating out when he says he did, why didn't he see the police tape and wonder what was going on, yards away from his front door?))

that is a very interesting question

if perchance no normal "crime scene" activities took place -- police tape, door knocking asking for witnesses, ambulance siren, etc. etc. could the Trayvon side have a case in that the scene of the incident did not receive the attention it should have?

[Clarice]

Love that, Jane! I'm holding out for Banderas. I'll try a slight trip and fall to get his attention..well, maybe not, my clumsy legs are banged up enough. Maybe, I'll just walk really slowly.

[Enlightened]

Sue- "Something isn't right"

Yep - me too.

From that paragraph this is a red flag for me:
because he had been spending time with my 20-year-old nephew who was a responsible young man

There was no reason to qualify the nephew's charachter as being "responsible young man".

This means Dad was coached to say TM only hung out with "responsible young men" and we know that is not true based on his Twitter/FB accounts and discplinary school situation

[Ignatz]

--I always remembered it as "rich Corinthian leather," Ignatz.--

In the youtube at the link he definitely says "soft", Porch, but there was probably more than one commercial made.

[Ignatz]

--Love that, Jane! I'm holding out for Banderas.--

Could be a long wait, clarice. He looked a little preoccupied in that Desperado link Rick posted.

[Porchlight]

Oh, I realized I'd remembered wrong, Iggy - I just think it's interesting how the wrong versions of catchphrases stay in one's mind all these years. Like you remembered "fine."

[Clarice]

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/318254_357200580987926_119512491423404_953699_512661084_n.jpg

This poster reminds me of this thread.

[Enlightened]

"A sad part of all this is that the father sounds well spoken in the radio interview I heard last night."

I agree - I sadly think his father is being scammed.

A for didn't Dad see emergency lights etc... I think that complex had flashing lights regulary - or enough that most of the residents didn't pay too much attention to it.

Another thing that most likely happened: TM was not known to everyone in the complex because it was not his primary residence. As neighbor "John" exhibited by not showing face on TV, and locking his door and running upstairs - the residents are not the type to get actively involved in the goings on outside their homes. So poor Trayvon lay there dead in the rain with no one really knowing who he was, no neighbor went to his Dad's house and said "Get your Dad, Get Tracy fast" etc...

[Jane (Where is Jon Corzine?)]

Hey, Trayvon was supposed to be babysitting and left the kid alone. How old is that kid? ANd if the abandonment of that child didn't worry those parents nothing would.

[Extraneus]

Thanks Bob.

Physics of firearms

When the bullet strikes, its high velocity and small frontal cross-section means that it will exert large stresses in any object it hits. This usually results in it penetrating any soft object, such as flesh. The energy is then dissipated in the wound track formed by the passage of the bullet.

[Enlightened]

"could the Trayvon side have a case in that the scene of the incident did not receive the attention it should have"

No - there is video of the night it happened - there were cops everywhere, flashing lights, crimes scene tape...etc.

TM was tragically unknown by most of the residents - not the cops fault. He had no ID on him - not the cops fault. The father went to bed thinkig his kid was ok - not the cops fault. Neighbors couldn't identify the kid - not the cops fault.

[Rob Crawford]

And if I was going home and Ricky Ricardo was behind me, I'd know I was actually really really going home.

Nearly lost a keyboard on that one. Well done.

[Chubby]

((No - there is video of the night it happened - there were cops everywhere, flashing lights, crimes scene tape...etc.))

ok, so that's an angle that can't be pursued. thanks

[Porchlight]

I agree with Enlightened that Trayvon wasn't known to residents and that residents were probably very used to sirens and flashing lights (which in itself supports Zimmerman and his 46 calls to 911 over the years, and his suspicions when he first saw Trayvon, who was unknown to him).

I just want to know:

1) the little brother's reaction to Trayvon's failure to return from the store, 2) why he didn't call the dad, and
3) why the dad didn't ask him where Trayvon was when the dad got back.

[Porchlight]

Hey, Trayvon was supposed to be babysitting and left the kid alone. How old is that kid? ANd if the abandonment of that child didn't worry those parents nothing would.

Those were my questions yesterday, Jane. I couldn't find any info about the age of the brother (in itself perhaps suspicious seeing as how there is so much other info about the family). But I found a pic of Trayvon and his brother where Trayvon looks to be older than 10, but possibly a few years older, and the boy looks to be no older than 3, but possibly younger. If I had to guess from that photo I would say they're at least 8 years apart which would mean the boy is 9ish.

So - how is the father not concerned that a 9yo was left home alone, in a neighborhood where sirens and flashing lights are so common that residents don't even leave their houses to see what's going on?

If the boy is older, why didn't he call his dad when Trayvon went to the store and never came back?

[Chubby]

how old is the little brother?

[Clarice]

My guess, porch, is this is not the Cleavers.

[Chubby]

ok, nine years old

[Porchlight]

No one knows, Chubby. My google skills may be off so if anyone can find out, I'd be very interested to know.

[Porchlight]

ok, nine years old

Did you find that info somewhere, Chubby? As I said I would guess 9 but it's just a guess based on the photo I saw.

I agree, Clarice. Just trying to evaluate the dad's story.

[Clarice]

I seem to recall the two boys were sort of step siblings, the younger being the girlfriend's son, they didn't normally live together. Of course, this is just my recollection and you know how faulty that can be.

[Porchlight]

I think that may be right, Clarice. Or they are half-brothers who share a dad. The pic I saw was of Trayvon and a toddler that was identified as his younger brother.

[Dave (in MA)]

Drudge:

CHICAGOLAND: Hoodie-Wearing Gunmen Kill 1, Wound 5 in Bobby Rush's District...

NO_LIMIT

[Chubby]

((Did you find that info somewhere, Chubby? As I said I would guess 9 but it's just a guess based on the photo I saw.))

Porchlight, I'm glad you asked. No, I didn't find the nine yo number via research. My error was just skimming your post and my eyes grabbing the 9 yo number. When I actually went back and read your post more closely, I realized my error. Sorry.

[Porchlight]

Oh, I see what you're saying, Clarice. The boy might not be the same boy I saw in the photograph. That is certainly possible.

I still want to know what his story was, though. I wonder if the police questioned him.

[Porchlight]

No need to apologize, Chubby. It is getting quite difficult to keep up with the wall-to-wall JOM coverage of the Sanford saga. I have been skimming, too.

[hit and run]

Janet:
my daughter asked me who my FB friend was that had a safety pin in his nose! Hah! Doesn't want me hangin' with sketchy people!

And plays with chainsaws! And not in the professional way that Ignatz does for a living.

But, hey...at least I don't smoke.

[Enlightened]

Great - just F'n great.

"If George Zimmerman is not arrested in the shooting death of Trayvon Martin soon, the Rev. Al Sharpton will call for an escalation in peaceful civil disobedience and economic sanctions."

“I will speak about how the National Action Network will move to the next level if Zimmerman isn’t arrested,” Sharpton said, who founded the organization. He added that it was the Martin family and lawyers who first asked him to get involved and nationalize this story."

LUN

[Rob Crawford]

Well, we all know what Sharpton considers "peaceful" -- multiple dead, buildings on fire...

[Clarice]

I just knew when Sylvia showed up stalker Hit would not be far behind.

[Clarice]

He owes a lot of taxes, maybe the Actin Network should talk to Rev'n Al about paying those first.

[Janet]

But, hey...at least I don't smoke.

True, Hit!

...and the poster is wonderful, Clarice.

[Jim Ryan]

You people can argue over the legal minutiae, but the bottom line is a white adult hunted down and killed a young black child and Barack's going to pick up my health care tab. That's all I know.

[Janet]

CHICAGOLAND: Hoodie-Wearing Gunmen Kill 1, Wound 5 in Bobby Rush's District...

Verner on FB did a "Hoodie Alert" for that story. Now there is: Religion of Peace Alert & Hoodie Alert....

[narciso]

Irony, it's a three course meal;

http://sistertoldjah.com/archives/2012/03/30/trayvon-nyt-complains-about-blogger-cherry-picking-ignores-msms-own/

[hit and run]

I just knew when Sylvia showed up stalker Hit would not be far behind.

Who?

The name rings a bell as if faintly in the distance, and I guess deep down I feel something, but it's been so long, almost like in another lifetime or something, I can hardly remember what it was all about.

I am sure she's an altogether lovely person.

[narciso]

What he doesn'r forbid with one hand, he takes with another;

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2012/03/30/Atlantic-Oil-And-Gas?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+BigGovernment+%28Big+Government%29

[narciso]

So, it' looks like Roseanne was msgninomous, sarc,

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Hollywood/2012/03/30/Roseanne-Apologizes-Zimmerman

[Clarice]

Narciso, Looks like another victory for--LITHIUM.

[pagar]

"Religion of Peace alert"
"Robert Spencer has a groundbreaking book coming out next month, Did Muhammad Exist? It is a bombshell. I read it and I can tell you that it shatters every conventional and accepted myth on the history of Muhammad and Islam."

You can find the Link at www.Atlasshrugs.typepad.com

If you read not nothing else about what our military is forced to put up in Afganistan today please read this:

http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2012/03/troops-vs-traitors-transvestites-taliban-bring-them-home.html

"Rebels are captured dressed in drag"
The pictures are worth a 1000 words.

[Enlightened]

You guys probably already saw this....

Breitbart has new video of GZ arriving at SPD.

1) It is clearly obvious when GZ gets out of the cruiser that there is something white across his nose
2) It is clearly obvious that one officer looks at the back of his head repeatedly
3) GZ does not look fat in that video? He is reportedly 5'9" 250 lbs? He does not look like it in that video....

LUN

[Jane]

I don't know if any of you read Lee Stranahan - he's the kind of liberal you would want to have over to dinner. And he's part of the Breitbart crowd. At any rate, his wife just had twins and if I read his tweet correctly they lost the girl.

[Porchlight]

Englightened,

The spin on the new video will probably be "that is not GZ"

[Clarice]

pagar, I saw those pics of the Taliban in drag and agree they are very funny.

[Porchlight]

I'm really sorry to hear that, Jane.

[jimmyk]

Breitbart has new video of GZ arriving at SPD.

Whatever gets reported first gets the staying power, especially if it helps make the race-baiters' case. So we have:

1) Skittles and Iced Tea
2) GZ chased down TM, even after the "police" "ordered" ordered him not to.
3) The police left TM's body in the morgue for 3 days without notifying next-of-kin.
4) TM is 17, but looks like an angelic 13-year-old with a cute smile.
5) GZ looks like a fat unshaven thug.
6) GZ said "f***ing coons."
7) GZ called 911 46 times over 8 months.
8) TM weighs 140 lbs and GZ weighs 250.

Every single one of these appears to be false. But all the retractions and corrections in the world can't get this toothpaste back into the tube, especially when people like Podesta, not to mention Piers Morgan, keep repeating them.

[Clarice]

Actually, that's not a new video,,it's just the original..It's clear ABC ran with a video of the video that was so grainy the head laceration and bandaged nose were hard to see.

[Clarice]

OTOH we should wish that some things received wider coverage..like Sheila Jackson Lee's report that DZ broke his own nose (presumably afterwards).http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=di_DiYkDzPY&feature=player_embedded

[jimmyk]

DZ broke his own nose (presumably afterwards)

Or perhaps from the recoil as he stood over a frightened Trayvon begging for mercy and shot him in cold blood.

[pagar]

Sheila Jackson Lee--Just the person I would go to if I wanted to know what was going on in Fl. I mean who else could possibly know more?

Amazing?

[Clarice]

Isn't it wonderful that the Scotus required that predominately minority districts be created and preserved so blacks have to be represented by clowns like those in the CBC. Just imagine, if black pols weren't enclaved and had to compete for votes more widely--why we'd get people like Sowell or Allen West instead of Lee (B.A. Yale, JD Univ of Va.)

[Rick Ballard]

jimmyk,

I believe the family has requested that people use Trayvon™ in honor of their checking account.

[Enlightened]

"Or perhaps from the recoil"

If you mean the recoil from the gun - wouldn't that mean GZ was holding the gun almost very close to his own face, almost right on top of his own nose?

No.

[jimmyk]

It was a joke, Enlightened.

[Enlightened]

"It was a joke, Enlightened"

I knew that....I should have added: Yeah if he was Mr. Magoo maybe he broke it from the recoil....lol

[Sylvia]

The younger brother could have gone to bed at some time and not noticed his brother didn't come home. Seems like the father went to bed too. I mean was TM was 17 years old, a child but not a baby.

And so Sue, you confirm the parents were not told on the same night. Just like I said. So I was right as usual.

[sbw]

Just sayin', has anyone seen TM and TM in the same room at the same time?

No wonder TM knows so much about the incident.

[Another Bob]

Extraneus, to do one last excavation of an expired equine, the "Force" section of your link discusses why the movies are the movies and not real life.

[Jane]

No wonder TM knows so much about the incident.

I bet Sylvia knows more.

[Another Bob]

And with that, I shuffle back to my lurker hole...

[Sylvia]

Enlightned, good dialog there. But either TM hit GZ first or the other way around, GZ could have run. I doubt TM wanted to apprehend him. There are a lot of houses there and he knows messing with some white guy (he thought he was white) would be trouble. What would be the purpose of apprehending GZ? And then do what with him.

The gf heard that he was scared of GZ, and was just trying to get away. And the 911 calls back up everything the GF said, down to TM spying the car and TM putting up his hoodie.

So obviously GZ thought he'd be the big guy and apprehend TM. THat's how the problem started. He tried to tackle TM and get him face down on the ground like a cop. THat is why there is no blood on GZ's shirt even though they were together on the ground.

When TM fought back, because TM didn't know who this guy was, and TM invoked his own stand your ground law. GZ shot him, probably for racial and revenge motives and a psychopathic bent. Kind of like some robbers shoot victims who don't give them money right away, as a punishment. Then lied his ass off afterwards.

I think that's what happened.

[centralcal]

Just imagine, if black pols weren't enclaved and had to compete for votes more widely...

No kidding. It is really rather sad. How about that Frederika lady with the rhinestone cowgirl hats and clown flower squirt pins and a high pitched voice screeching "he was racially profiled!"

[Dave (in MA)]

I just knew when Sylvia showed up stalker Hit would not be far behind.

That's how cybot trolls are designed to work.

[Ignatz]

--I bet Sylvia knows more.--

It's a given, Jane.
No doubt Trayvon concussed her himself shortly before his date with destiny.

[Rob Crawford]

Sylvia, you're sick.

[fdcol63]

" ... But either TM hit GZ first or the other way around, GZ could have run. I doubt TM wanted to apprehend him. .."

GZ couldn't have run of TM punched him in the nose and then immediately knocked him on the ground and started bashing his head into the concrete.

No, TM didn't want to apprehend GZ .... TM was angry that GZ was following him simply because he was WWSWB (Walking With Skittles While Black), and TM wanted to beat the crap out of GZ.

[Clarice]

whistle when we get to the part where the Duke Lacrosse team did it.