Poll Dancing And Spinning

Bloomberg News leads on their new opinion survey, which highlights their innovative "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" polling technique:

Americans overwhelmingly regard the debate over President Barack Obama’s policy on employer-provided contraceptive coverage as a matter of women’s health, not religious freedom, rejecting Republicans’ rationale for opposing the rule. More than three-quarters say the topic shouldn’t even be a part of the U.S. political debate.

Let's take that one claim at a time.  On the question of whether this is a matter of women's rights or religious freedom, Bloomberg polled the following:

There has been recent controversy over whether education and health care facilities affiliated with religious organizations, such as the Catholic Church, should provide access to birth control through health insurance plans. Which of the following describes your view on this debate: (Read two options. Rotate.

33% - This is a matter of religious liberty
62% - This is a matter of a woman’s health and access to birth control
5% - Not sure

That is somewhat similar to the recent NY Times result, which found that 51% see this as a debate on womens's rights and 37% view this as a matter of religious freedom.  However, unlike Bloomberg the Times also asked about the topic in the news; despite the preference for the "women's rights" framing, 57% thought that religiously-affiliated institutions ought to be allowed an opt-out, versus 36% who thought they should cover regardless.  One might infer that a subset of respondents believes that this issue is mostly a matter of women's rights but religious freedom can still be respected and protected.

As to what Bloomberg would have found if they had asked that question, who can tell?  They had a wider margin preferring the "women's rights" frame, so maybe they would not have found a clear majority favoring a religiously affiliated opt-out.  Maybe.  Their "Don't Ask" polling technique leaves us in the dark.

Their second claim, "More than three-quarters say the topic shouldn’t even be a part of the U.S. political debate", is utterly opaque.  From the poll:

Do you believe birth control should or should not be part of the national political debate?

20% - Should
77% - Should not

So now we know.  As to just what we know, I have no idea.  Birth control was not part of the national debate until Obama announced his surprisingly restrictive ObamaCare rules in late January.  As to whether we should be debating it now, do the Bloomberg pollsters really think (or expect us to believe) that 77% of Americans believe that anything Obama announces should be accepted without question?   That doesn't quite square with his approval rating, which is somewhere near 50%.

I am confident that many people opposed to Team Obama's new rules on contraception coverage would rather be talking about jobs, jobs, jobs and real plans to spur the recovery.  There may be many who think that we had a workable religious exception at the Federal level until 2009 and there is no need to be debating a change in that now.

The workings of ObamaCare have foisted this debate on us, so here we are.  And until the Bloomberg pollsters work up the nerve to poll the obvious question at hand it is hard to take their results seriously.

As a clue, here is the current Times formulation:

Do you think health insurance plans for all employees should have to cover the full cost of birth control for their female employees, or should employers be allowed to opt out of covering that based on religious or moral objections?

For "all employers", 40% of respondents said "cover" while 51% said "opt-out". For religiously-affiliated employers, as noted above, the breakdown was 36%-57%.

MEANWHILE, IN ALAN COLMES LA-LA LAND: The Colmes cocooners go home to fantasy land with this headline:

77% Reject Republican Arguments On Birth Control

Improved reading comprehension and critical thinking may one day lead these reality free-basers back to reality.

Comments

[jimmyk]

Sara, I trust you know the difference between "only" versus "part of" or "also." Or that, for example, one is less than two, but not equal to zero. (Apologies for the math.) Let's leave it at that, shall we?

[Chubby]

((well, if Abraham had absolute faith in God, he wouldn't have impregnated Hagar, and then we wouldn't have the blessings of Islam, today.))

so?

what's that got to do with the price of camel dung in Afghanistan?

[Ranger]

The outlook is encouraging for Wisconsin, just as it is Nationally. Piggy-back effect.

Well, if Wisconsin is just piggy-backing, then why is their ranking improving so much compared to other states?

If Wisconsin were just piggy-backing, then wouldn't their ranking just remain the same or maybe even drop a little?

[Ben Franklin]

"so?"

Why do I have to bridge every transitional thought? Do your own thinking.

[Jane (get off the couch - come save the country)]

Hey a CEO of planned parenthood in Texas got arrested today for exposing himself in a park to some guy.

Cream of the crop those guys.

[hit and run]

A couple days ago WaPo put out a piece arguing that there's really nothing Obama can do about gas prices,according to experts. What's more, they argue that prices today really aren't that high historically. What's more than that, they want you to know that the not really as high as you think they are gas prices really don't take that big of a bite out of a family's wallet anyway.

So stop complaining all you bitter clingers.

They had a handy graphic to illustrate their point. I agumented it slightly.

[Jane (get off the couch - come save the country)]

So Ben, can we assume you support critical race theory given your support of this administration?

Where did you first learn about it?

[Threadkiller]

Hit, that is hilarious!

[Rick Ballard]

"The outlook is encouraging for Wisconsin, just as it is Nationally."

You betcha. One need only glance over Controller Chiang's monthly report to see that California is once again leading the entire Nation.

Right into the toilet.

It takes a Democrat mis-Governor and a Democrat legislature to destroy a state to the point where revenue in the third year of the Obama Depression falls by 22.6%.

[Ben Franklin]

That is an execrable, prurient, diabolical scheme to get traffic for your blog, Hit.

I salute you....

[narciso]

They really can't be this stupid/slavish can they, rhetorical question, rising gas prices
,affect eveything, think of it as a negative
multiplier

[Joan]

As far as the second question, dubbed opaque, about whether or not birth control should be part of the national debate, I don't think it should be part of the national political debate. When George Stephanopoulos introduced the question at the debate, I thought it was preposterous and puzzling.

Sex used to be private. I wish its subject was opaque. Now its every facet is rammed into our faces. Unwed mothers. Gay couples. Threesomes. Teen sex. Pre-teen sex. Herpes. Gonorrhea. STD outbreaks in older Americans.

I'm sick of other people's sex lives. I'm sick of seeing cheerleaders and pom dancers dressed so we can see the cheeks of their ass. Yes, they're cute, and I know many of the men will think this is one gripe too far, but look where we've gotten to as a nation.

This discussion over women's rights to birth control has gone far enough.

What an insurance company chooses to pay for is its business. What an employer chooses to cover in its employees' insurance is that employers' business. What a religious institution or employer wishes to cover as far as its student or employee insurance is its business.

Where has our common sense gone!

[narciso]

I've been somewhat dissapointed in some of his response, like the Hamas prisoner exchange, but he is right on target here;

http://www.therightscoop.com/netanyahu-israel-will-protect-itself-even-if-america-objects/

[Danube of Thought]

"Rather, I claim nothing but am only stating a fact: there is now no denying that the birth-certificate matter warrants further investigation..."

Seems to me that if the writer is stating a "fact," there is no need at all for further investigation, and criminal charges should be filed. But if further investigation is in fact needed, then a grand jury should be convened at once for that very purpose.

I predict that no such grand jury will be convened in any jurisdiction in the United States.

[Clarice]

"If Wisconsin were just piggy-backing, then wouldn't their ranking just remain the same or maybe even drop a little?"

Gosh, ranger--you're using logic. That's considered cheating at Pitzer.

[Danube of Thought]

"you can't isolate 'austerity' as the only fix."

The burden is in one making that assertion to suggest an alternative.

[MarkO]

"you can't isolate 'austerity' as the only fix."

It's just this kind of fuzzy thinking that prompts people to by books suggesting you can eat all you want and still lose weight.

[Sara]

ME: What snark? Anti-Catholic bigotry? What are you talking about? Sounds like you are the paranoid one. Someone asked a question, I answered with a question of my own based on a memory. After getting jumped on, I looked up the quote from Santorum's own mouth.

[AliceH]

I thought this was interesting:

Biggest job losses in WI were in Government (53.6%), Leisure/Hospitality (20.4%), Construction (14%), and Financial Svcs (12%).

Biggest gainers were Manufacturing (53.3%), Education/Healthcare (28%), and Trade/Transportation (18%).

[Ranger]

Clarice, I am sure Dana put in a really long 3 to 4 hours on campus today, so he can't be exspected to put that much thought into his arguments at this point. Otherwise, he would simply say that Wisconsin is clearly following from the front.

[AliceH]

Those were % of total gains/losses from Jan2011 to Jan2012.

[Clarice]

Good thing you and I didn't go to Pitzer, Ranger, the Dean would have put us on double secret probation for thinking.

[narciso]

The savant (idiot) pipes up removing all doubt;

http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2012/03/figures-far-left-crank-jon-stewart-tells-fox-news-to-shut-the-fck-up-about-bill-mahers-tw-t-and-c-nt-attacks-against-conservative-women-video/

[jorod]

Santorum is the Martin Luther of our age. 'Slaughter the peasants.' He is a professional politician who never had a real job in his life. He knows nothing of business. However, I do agree that we need to worry more about who is in Congress rather than who is in the WH.

[Clarice]

cc. I thought the shoes were a joke until I read the Guardian had intercepted Mrs Assad's shopping emails. No wonder Anna Wintour loves her

[Chubby]

((Why do I have to bridge every transitional thought? Do your own thinking)))

LOL!!!!!!!!!!!

I won't deny that the story of Abraham, Hagar and Ishmael is interesting insofar as it explains the beginning of the generational animosity between the progeny of Abraham's two sons, but that is a whole other story. Your citing it in a conversation about barren people in so-called Christian cults being forced to forebear marital relations was totally irrelevant.

[Clarice]

It was better than his Pitzer version of the story of Ruth, though. We're making progress.

[Clarice]

**story of Esther****

[Ignatz]

--And all of a sudden, it becomes deconstructed to the point where it's simply pleasure. And that's certainly a part of it—and it's an important part of it, don't get me wrong—but there's a lot of things we do for pleasure, and this is special, and it needs to be seen as special.--

What in that quote, acknowledging the pleasure of sex, but asserting the Catholic notion that artificial removal of the procreative part of it diminisjes it supports your mischaracterization of what Santorum said?
If you can find a quote from either that says sex between a couple past their child bearing years should not engage in sex then get back to me. Short of that you are very clearly mischaracterizing Catholic doctrine which Santorum was merely restating in the vernacular.

[Chubby]

well, before he googled it, he did think that Purim was about Ruth

[narciso]

Maybe it's a Yale thing, Beinart suffers from the same misunderstanding of that book, I know that's a requirement to work at the Daily
Basilisk, apparently he's imparting said unknowledge to unsuspecting student at CUNY.

[Ignatz]

People seem way too hostile today and this is the poll dancing thread so how bout some cheesecake to settle people down?

[Ben Franklin]

<3 talking about contraception with you retarded neocon hicks, it really shows how much you cunts hate women.

Keep Fluking that chicken!

[AliceH]

Pi Day! Cheesecake Pie. mmm

[ME]

Ignatz,
Perhaps Sara means to cite Canon 1084 section 3, which states: "Sterility neither prohibits nor invalidates marriage." She's so interested in this aspect of Catholicism that she really should study the canons on marriage, which are available on-line (LUN). In secret we have said nothing.

[Ignatz]

Hope nobody minds that I didn't link those obscenely provocative, succulent dishes but instead provided buck naked pics; well clothed in a little sauce I guess.

[daddy]

You guys are probably way ahead of me on this, but local Talk Radio today had this story about Obama's face being on a US Flag hanging outside Dem Party Headquarters somewhere in Florida.

Finding the story on FOX news, I was not surprised by the comment of the Dem Flag-raiser as to why she thought citizens were angry about the Flag:

"Hurlbert said Tuesday's incident was the first time anyone had complained about the flag, which she received as a gift two months ago.

"It leads me to believe that it's not about the flag," she told FoxNews.com. "Certain elements cannot accept Barack Obama as president."

I think that means I'm a racist.

[Rick Ballard]

ME,

If you have a fence in the back yard, your time would be better spent trying to educate the third post from the right.

[centralcal]

Now that is what I call cheesecake. Yummo, Iggy.

[narciso]

Our local drive time Clear Channel station host, had a similarly confuzzled arguments,
because they're veterans they shouldn't protest or something, brainslugs are chomping right through the medulla oblongatta.

[centralcal]

lol, RickB.

[Danube of Thought]

I'd like to know a little bit more about that flag--it's orign, its distrbution, and more.

I think there can be little doubt that had a comparable flag been constructed with GWB in place of Obama, we'd be hearing about stuff like Nuremberg rallies till hell wouldn't have it.

[Rick Ballard]

Amity Schlaes has a nice inflation piece out. YoY rail car and container loadings suggest that "little" is an improper descriptor wrt inflation. Mad Ben is spending too much time banging on his Okun's Law model.

[Jane]

I wonder if you can get kicked out of pfitzer for using that language.

[Captain Hate]

daddy ever since I saw your link on the previous page I've been trying to figure out if it would be worse to be around Silky or Rielle::shudder::

[Clarice]

DoT, I read somewhere that it was manufactured in China. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

[narciso]

Don't tell Loewenheim, he practically has Helicopter Ben canonized, WD Howell screams from the great beyond.

[Captain Hate]

Speaking of Amity I finished "The Forgotten Man" a couple days ago. Somebody here asked for my reaction to it: It was very readable and kept my interest throughout and I learned a lot from it; but it was less than totally satisfying ultimately. I felt like I was getting an outline of things, more or less, and wanted a bit more detail.

I don't mean to come off as badmouthing it because I'm glad I read it; I just feel like I have to know more but doubt that I'll ever get to it and probably wouldn't know where to turn.

[AliceH]

daddy/DoT: The flag has been around since at least the glory years of 2009.

http://supportyourlocalgunfighter.com/2009/10/the-barack-obama-american-flag/

[DrJ]

CH,

I agree with your impression of "The Forgotten Man" -- it is the People Magazine picture of the era. Yes, I enjoyed the depiction of the times, the personalities and the stories, but economically I found that it skipped over the important parts much too quickly.

In fact, I asked jimmyk if there is something published between this popular-level book and academic economics articles. Sadly, he could not come up with anything. I'd enjoy reading something more rigorous without having to understand an entire academic field first.

[narciso]

I think the Schlesinger /Galbraith paradigm of the Depression, and the genius of Roosevelt
has been around so long, it has become canon,

[DrJ]

Narciso, in fairness to Shlaes she does not toe the "genius Roosevelt" line. In fact, she pushes hard in the other direction.

I understand that she was writing a popular-level book. I simply wanted some more meat.

[narciso]

No, I was making the opposite point, interestingly some of the better sources she used were quite contemporaneous to the period,

[centralcal]

At tonight's State Dinner:

PM Cameron says 3 things stand out to him about Pres Obama: strength, moral authoroity and wisdom.

Comments like those make me really, really miss PUK!

[Captain Hate]

Correct DrJ; she hammers FDR pretty hard imo.

[narciso]

He's the best Conquistador Coffee could offer, oh lord, he's all on record as saying
he didn't understand Sarah, well that makes sense doesn't it,

[centralcal]

Also, the classiest couple in the universe had an almost oopsie daisy moment. Barack stepped on the train of Michelle's gown while she was in full stride.

Camera's caught it. So, Barack being Barack, he lied about it in his toast to Cameron at the dinner:

Pres. Obama begins his toast at State Dinner saying the night has already been successful because he didn't step on Michelle's train.

[Threadkiller]

Things that are absent tend to stand out, ccal.

[narciso]

Well it's more the George Costanza effect,

[Threadkiller]

With a caboose like that, how could anyone miss the train?

[Rick Ballard]

I believe that she revealed him as an emulator of the other President's For Life of his era. I would like to have seen more depth, particularly regarding the the effectiveness of the propaganda effort - and the abject cowardice of the Supreme Court after the packing attempt.

[Frau Steingehirn]

cc - that tells us more than we want to know about the UK today.

Yes, we must look to PUK for clarity.

[centralcal]

Sorry, somehow the link to the train incident didn't work. I'll try one more time.

[Frau Steingehirn]

Don't you mean the train accident?

[Threadkiller]

Train wreck.

No boxcar for Obama tonight.

[Clarice]

Thank goodness the dress didn't tear off.(BTW it was designed by Hollywood Harvey Weinstein's wife--He's a big contributor. Maybe they contributed this one, too.)

[narciso]

So apparently the proposed emcee at the RTCD, visited the White House, about a year ago,
shocker I know;

[Threadkiller]

Twue Wuv.

[centralcal]

Possibly, Clarice. Knoller lists Weinstein among the dinner guests.

Her Excellency M.O. was seated between Cameron and George Clooney.

I agree it was a good thing the dress didn't tear off, leaving her in only her 3,000 beads draped artfully around her neck.

Last comment and I will shut up. I notice in all the photos - Mrs. Cameron in pants, Mrs. Cameron in street length dress, Mrs. Cameron in gown for dinner tonight - she is wearing the same pair of shoes. Very, very high heeled shoes. Those shoes elevate her to eyeball-to-eyeball height with Michelle.

No woman wears only 1 pair of shoes for all events, unless it is deliberate?

[Threadkiller]

Strength:

Moral authority:

Wisdom:

[centralcal]

Perfect visuals, Threadkiller.

[Captain Hate]

and the abject cowardice of the Supreme Court after the packing attempt.

Nary a peep about that.

[DrJ]

and the abject cowardice of the Supreme Court after the packing attempt.

I was interested in that too. She described the run-up in broad terms, but then dropped the story line for other interesting shiny objects. Sad.

I would gladly have had her expand what she did into three volumes. I read her book in two days, so the added time would be fine.

[daddy]

Re: The Obama Flag

It seems to me that this would be a perfect time for a decent, honorable Commander in Chief, to step up and tell us how he thinks and feels about the US flag; it's importance, it's history, it's American sacredness, what it symbolizes, and why it should not be modified or desecrated and and used as a divisive campaign prop by any political party.

A decent, honorable Commander in Chief would do that, and would gain popularity by doing that.

My guess though, is that our current Commander in Chief, who started his political career in Bill Ayer's Living Room, won't do what is decent and honorable.

[Threadkiller]

What more can he say, daddy?

[daddy]

Let me modify that now that I've caught up---

RE: the Flag. He won't act with Strength, Moral Authority, or Wisdom.

[daddy]

Beautiful TK,

Why honor it if it doesn't have his picture on it.

[Gus]

I'm the son of a Brit. And I would have been proud had Cameron said those 3 words that he surely must really think of Obama.

STINK
STANK
STUNK

[Ignatz]

--I'd enjoy reading something more rigorous without having to understand an entire academic field first.--

The economists don't understand the field so why should you, doc?
(No offense jimmy)

[daddy]

I suspect if someone from Malaysia made a stink about this flag issue, saying that it was the Malaysian Flag that Obama's face had been affixed to, that our CIC would already have apologized.

[DrJ]

The economists don't understand the field so why should you, doc?

Ouch! I'd be pleased to read an overview of opinions with citations back to the literature.

One thing that Shlaes made clear is that analytic interpretation of economic results was very primitive in those days. You may not believe the current practitioners, but there has been a lot of careful thought given to this period. So write about it!

[daddy]

Captain,

That photo of Reille has me contemplating celibacy. Yikes!

And as to the earlier celibacy topic. I vaguely recalled the Shaker's being a group that despised all sexual copulation, for procreation or for any other reason. Here's an interesting link about that defunct group.

Can't vouch for all of it but I do recall knowing that they believed Jesus had been reborn in a woman who became their spiritual leader, Ann Lee.

"Ann Lee was a simple, illiterate woman, born in 1736 in Manchester, the child of a blacksmith. She lived in poverty, working in a factory from an early age. At 22, she married a blacksmith, Abraham Standerin, and gave birth, in rapid succession, to four children all of whom died in infancy. Her marriage was unhappy from start to end."

"Ann showed signs of prophetic leadership very quickly. She drew others to herself like a magnet. Gradually, the Wardleys let it be known that the prophesied female incarnation of Christ had occurred, and the Christ was in their midst -- none other than Ann Lee."

"During this dark period, Ann Lee became aware that she was possessed by Christ. One of the mysterious truths revealed to her was that the cause of the world's anguish was the act of sexual copulation. This revelation became like the North Star of the Shaker faith. From that point forward, the search for sexual freedom meant celibacy. Ann began to preach openly against marriage and sexual intercourse of any kind. All the world's wrongs: war, disease, slavery, famine, poverty, the inequality of the sexes -- all were the result of "concupiscence."

She came to the States to set up the Shakers, but this part I did not know and found worthy of mention:

"Abraham, Ann's husband, did not share her faith. He was often found in taverns and once brought a harlot home with him, announcing his intentions to have sex with her if Ann persisted in her faith. As a result, after 13 years, the unhappy marriage ended in 1775."

Personally I hope everyone sins greatly this weekend. I plan to!

[Danube of Thought]

The next time some McCain aide expresses his fear about the prospect of Sarah Palin being a heartbeat away from the presidency, I would like to see him examined relentlessly on how that circumstance would compare with John Edwards's being in the same position.

But we all know to a certainty that such an examination will never occur.

[Gus]

Sin responsibly and stay thirsty my friend.

[Gus]

John Edwards is a self centered evil prix.
Obama should be so lucky.

[jimmyk]

So write about it!

There's been a lot written, but finding that balance between mass market and academic is tough. One could do worse than read Milton Friedman's "The Great Contraction," but like most others, he's looking at one slice of it. I'm guessing that these guys will eventually write a book, but the revisionist view of the Depression only goes back a decade or so, so most of the "in-between" books are conventional Keynesian carp.

[Dave (in MA)]

The next time some McCain aide expresses his fear about the prospect of Sarah Palin being a heartbeat away from the presidency

That's funny; I feel the same way about Joe "Seems to me this would be a good time to send, no strings attached, a check for $200 million to Iran” 'foreign policy chops' Biden who lost his debate with Palin in the eyes of any sane person.

[daddy]

Thanks Gus,

But I may have to wait to sin till after the Heel's beat The Catamounts.

Anybody know what the heck is a Catamount?

[narciso]

It's a type of wild cat;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catamount

[daddy]

What a Catamite rides?

[Threadkiller]

--" Anybody know what the heck is a Catamount?"--

Something an Ex-wife can now legally sell in Alaska.

[daddy]

Its been snowing like crazy up here today but the darn weather folks say we still need 3.3 more inches to beat the All Time Snowfall Record for Anchorage.

Took the dogs up my favorite trail today but it was so deep it took us about 2 hours to do the 1.5 mile route as I wasn't wearing snowshoes and we were barely plodding along. Had to backtrack a few hundred yards as a big Bull Moose was lying down across one trail, and since they are ornery lately, we backtracked and took the upper loop.

The fun part is when we start back downhill. The 2 labs know when I turn around that it is go home time, so time to start biting and playfully snarling at each other, and then they love claiming the high-ground, and come peeling downhill like dive-bombers trying to take out each other and sometimes me.

With so much snow along the path it is wonderful and safe for dog collisions, so they are always wiping out and getting buried. Very much fun.

C'mon snowfall.

Here's some pics of what you guys are missing.

[daddy]

LOL TK:)

[Gus]

I think a CATAMOUNT is that SANDWICH they eat in Australia!!

[narciso]

No, that Vegemite,

[jimmyk]

Here's something that doesn't happen every day (thankfully):

New frog species discovered in New York City

Must be the water.

[Danube of Thought]

Catamount, catamite. Hey, what the hell: prostrate, prostate. Venerable, venereal. Angina, vagina. Penile, penal.

Some of you people just have dirty minds, that's all.

[Gus]

Danube, I blame Ignatz.

[daddy]

Re this celibacy business, Instapundit has a small section up on it now where some Lefty gals are threatening to pull a Lysistrata.

They are so angry about this Fluke Contraceptionissue that they plan on going on a sex strike, and cutting their male sex partners off by exercising self-restraint, at which point Insty posts this comment from a reader:

“Sooo, let me get this straight: Liberal Ladies who Lunch are threatening to begin exercising self-control, so that they won’t need me to pay for their birth control in the first place? Briar patch?” Yeah, this whole issue hasn’t turned out quite as the geniuses at the White House planned."

[Sara]

ME: Stop putting words in my mouth and you too Ignatz. I asked a simple question based on what I recalled. I could care less what the Catholic canons are about sex or marriage or any other religion. As far as I'm concerned, sex is between me and my partner and no one else has any right to tell me if it good, bad, or indifferent. Why are both of you trying to make me into some kind of bigot?

Good grief.