Send Better Witnesses

CNN pretends to reprise the witnesses to the Trayvon Martin shooting and aftermath.  They paint a picture of a 'fair and balanced' effort but omit 'John', the most important eyewitness to the scuffle that preceded the shooting.  John says Zimmerman was on the ground getting beaten and calling for help; odd that CNN missed that.  Thay also omit the 13 year old dog-walker, who saw a scuffle and has waffled as to who was on top.

CNN opens with Mary Cutcher, who is often mentioned as an important pushback witness for the Martin side (my emphasis):

Mary Cutcher was in her kitchen making coffee that night with her roommate, Selma Mora Lamilla. The window was open, she said.

"We heard a whining. Not like a crying, boohoo, but like a whining, someone in distress, and then the gunshot," she said.

They looked out the window but saw nothing. It was dark.

They ran out the sliding glass door, and within seconds, they saw Zimmerman.

"Zimmerman was standing over the body with -- basically straddling the body with his hands on Trayvon's back," Cutcher said. "And it didn't seem to me that he was trying to help him in any way. I didn't hear any struggle prior to the gunshot.

"And I feel like it was Trayvon Martin that was crying out, because the minute that the gunshot went off, the whining stopped."

The two women said they could not see whether Zimmerman was bruised or hurt. It was too dark.

"Selma asked him three times, 'what's going on over there?' " Cutcher said. "He looks back and doesn't say anything. She asks him again, 'everything OK? What's going on?' Same thing: looked at us, looked back. Finally, the third time, he said, 'just call the police.' "

Extended versions of her story are available; CNN included enough for their purposes, but let's toss this in from the roommate, speaking to NBC Dateline:

Lamilla said that after the shot was fired Zimmerman appeared to be pacing.

“He started walking back and forth like three times with his hand on the head and kind of, he was walking like kind of confused,” she said.

Lamilla said he was touching his head like “he was in shock.”

Dazed, touching his head and acting in shock as if (just thinking out loud here) wounded - the defense will want her on the stand.  CNN can go to an extended commercial during her testimony.

As to Ms. Cutcher, she saw nothing, did not hear a struggle witnessed by others and "feel[s] like" it was Martin shouting because the shouting stopped with the gunshot.

Not to be too obvious here, but if Zimmerman was calling for assistance and then finally solved his problem with a gunshot, is it unreasonable to think he might stop shouting for help?

I don't see her feelings helping the prosecutor much.

CNN aired an Anderson Cooper interview with an anonymous witness.  Anyone autotuning that should include "Getting dark, too dark to see; feel like someone's knocking on heaven's door".

I'll include a snippet of the CNN highlights:

The witness recalled seeing two men on the grass, one on top of the other.

"And at that point, not looking out the window, I heard the yell for help, one yell for help, and then I heard another ... excruciating type of yell," the witness said. "It didn't almost sound like 'help.' It just sounded so painful. But I wasn't watching out the window during that. And then the next time I looked out the window, there's the same thing: two men on the grass, one on top of each other. I couldn't see a lot of movement. It was very dark, but I felt like they were scuffling. And then I heard the gunshots, which, to me, were more like pops than they were like a bang."

The witness recalled hearing more than one shot. "It definitely was more than one pop noise, so I don't know if it was an echo or anything else. But it definitely made more than one pop."

Then one of the men, who appeared to be Hispanic, started walking toward the witness' vantage point, the witness said. Zimmerman is Hispanic.

"He didn't appear hurt or anything else," the witness said.

As other people have said, any fight fan has seen boxers walk out of the ring shortly after a knockout, so who knows.  I do like the detail that Zimmerman looked Hispanic - don't tell NPR.  Otherwise, this utterly inconclusive testimony *might* help the prosecutor if other medical evidence pooh-poohs Zimmerman's wounds.

Martin's girlfriend

Benjamin Crump, the Martin family lawyer, says Martin's girlfriend's account of what happened connects the dots and destroys Zimmerman's claims of self-defense.

I say the defense will feast on the fact that her testimony is tainted by exposure to the 911 calls. The girl was only "found", or at least, brought forward, after the 911 tapes were made public three weeks after the shooting.  During those three weeks, the Martin family had overlooked that Martin had a girlfriend and was on the phone with her or his other friends from dawn to dusk. According to Mr. Crump.

Still, that is a bad job by the Sanford PD if they really did not find her and talk to her.

CNN includes this among the highlights:

The case becomes more complicated as details emerge.

Hmm, explaining how the prosecutor can establish probable cause for an arrest becomes harder unless more facts are suppressed.  "John" spoke to Fox Orlando 35 the day after the shooting, for heaven's sake, and has yet to be contradicted by a useful eyewitness.  The Martin side has a grainy video from ABC News (offset by charges of doctoring, the police report, and 'John') and a positive winning attitude.

ECHO CHAMBER: The Booman Tribune links uncritically to the CNN story:

Of course we know from the testimony of several witnesses that an altercation took place. It just doesn't seem like it lasted very long or that either of them was able to do much damage to the other.

What's become even more clear is that the story being told from the Zimmerman camp, and even to a certain degree the police department, doesn't look plausible because it doesn't match up with any of the disinterested evidence in the case.

...Considering how tight the timeline is here, it appears that this is what happened. Trayvon interrupted his conversation with his girlfriend to confront Zimmerman. Zimmerman was verbally aggressive in return. They approached each other and started pushing. Loud words were exchanged. The fight went to the ground. Zimmerman wound up on top. Martin cried out for help. Then Zimmerman pulled his gun on him, causing Martin to make a frightened desperate plea. And then he was executed.

The BooMan either doesn't know about 'John' or wants to forget (Google is not resolving this for me).  To befair, an early commenter brings a mixed dose of reality to the Reality-Based Community:

I am also starting to believe that the witness "John" is a fake. John is the one who the Orlando Sentinel reported the next day, who said that Trayvon was on top of Z, beating him. He says he heard Z crying for help, and said he was going to call 911. Yet there's no 911 call from John. So he called the newspaper but not 911?

I don't know how I would prove it, but Adam Weinstein of Mother Jones has all the 911 calls.  His "Holy Shit, the guy's dead out here... Oh, my God" caller seems to fill the role of John perfectly.

Reality is interrupted for a brief non-awareness moment from the commenter:

Meanwhile, other witnesses, such as Mary Cutcher and Selma Lamilla, as well as the mother of the 13 yo boy who was out walking his dog, have come forward with their full names in public... And John, the only witness who supports Z's story, remains anonymous.

Ahh, Spike Lee is trying to tweet the address of George Zimmerman, protestors are marching through Sanford, Florida is hot and getting hotter - who among us would want to self-identify as the most important witness for Zimmerman's defense? 

Comments

[Rick Ballard]

Trayvon™®© Wiki

Looks like we might want to bookmark it for daily use.

[Threadkiller]

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/mv-Z4VDx/magic_grits/

[DebinNC]

The 7-11 video should show Trayvon's arrival and departure times, his demeanor, his size relative to the clerk, whether he was alone, what he purchased, etc.

[Rob Crawford]

Neither Cutcher nor Lumilla saw what happened before the shot -- so they cannot refute Zimmerman's claim to self defense.

The anonymous witness says nothing that refutes Zimmerman's claim, either. His claim that Zimmerman looked Hispanic is contradicted by weeks of newspapers making sure we knew he is white, and the claim that Zimmerman "didn't look hurt" is belied by the police reports. The defense may have fun with his claim of two shots, as well -- Zimmerman's gun apparently failed to feed, making a second shot impossible.

And ABC's "video"? Phone camera footage taken off a monitor reviewing the police station video. I'd bet it was fed to the press by the family lawyers, along with some specific suggestions about how to use it.

[Eric in Boise]

Rick, I find it interesting that Wiki is using the "more favorable" picture of Zimmerman along with the "less favorable" pic of Martin. Not sure what it means, if anything, but it's interesting, nonetheless.

[Rob Crawford]

Eric, Wikipedia is a lost cause. The article a while back about their refusal to accept a correction from a historian who had actually researched primary documents and found that Wikipedia was flatly wrong was the final straw.

[bunky]

14 people shot at a funeral in Florida. Move along, nothing to see here......

[DebinNC]

CNN article wrier Moni Basu:

"He was shot dead on Feb. 26 by neighborhood watch volunteer, George Zimmerman, while clutching a bag of Skittles and iced tea."

Ms. Basu must have discovered a witness to the actual shooting.

[Rob Crawford]

DebinNC -- wait, the way Basu writes that, Zimmerman was the one with the Skittles and iced tea.

Pretty impressive shooting, then. I have a hard enough time with a two-handed grip.

[Clarice]

I expect that at this point with Sharpton armies marching thru the streets and even people who should know better like Marion wright Edelman posing in a hoodie,pro-Martin memories are getting vaguer than they were at the time of the incident. Just saying.

Should the defense try to use the later versions, I feel the earlier ones must have been preserved and are discrediting.

[daddy]

Pier's Morgan's Chickens come home to roost.

In this video of an interview today by Piers Morgan with an angry MSNBC "Journalist" who has concluded that Zimmerman is a murderer, you can see that Piers may finally be realizing that a bit of his inflammatory pronouncements about Zimmerman in previous segments, (such as saying to Zim's brother that Zimmerman says racial epithets) is coming home to roost.

The unapologetic black racist has obviously no use for Piers, whom the race-baiter claims cannot understand race relations in America. It's rather an ugly segment all around, by 2 people I consider ugly, but something decent may come of it if it smacks Piers around enough for him to know what he is viewed as by the racebaiters, and if it contributes to an understanding by himself and those viewers who watch him, that his words have contributed somewhat to fanning the flames of this charged racial division.

[Rick Ballard]

Eric,

I found the Wiki fairly even handed. The photos may be 'most recent available'. I'm also wondering whether the 7-11 speculation arises solely from Trayvon™®©'s mother's statement in the Fox35 article stating that "He walked out of the house to go to the store. He was going to the store," The interview with the mother was the day after the shooting, before she hired the race baiter and trade marked Trayvon™®©.

[Eric in Boise]

Rob, that's what I find interesting. I've long heard that Wiki is agenda driven. Since it's usually conservatives that are making that accusation I was very surprised to see them using those two photos, rather than the other two we've gotten used to seeing.

Is the narrative slowly changing? That's probably a lot to hope for, but who knows. People in my neck of the woods who normally pay absolutely no attention to politics/current events are talking about this and they aren't happy. Of course, we're just a bunch of bitter clingers here in Boise so it probably doesn't mean anything.

But what if it does?

[Clarice]

I did, too, Rick. It's an excellent summary.

[ECM]

There's a twist on this skittles and tea thing floating around now:

http://theconservativetreehouse.com/2012/03/31/tea-and-skittles/

As someone that would have no idea if this is accurate, I leave it to the readers here to figure that out.

[Rob Crawford]

Should the defense try to use the later versions, I feel the earlier ones must have been preserved and are discrediting.

That's why the police collected statements immediately.

[Threadkiller]

Same old wiki, eric.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ellie_Light

Just give them time.

[Rob Crawford]

There's a twist on this skittles and tea thing floating around now

As relevant to the case as the supposed videotapes from 7-11. Which is to say, not at all.

[Enlightened]

Could just be me and my inquiring mind but:

1) The Chief and DA seem very confident their case is solid as as is
2) Could it be possible there was a call to the police (not necessarily to 911) that someone saw someone creepin around the complex - the call being prior to GZ 911 call

[Eric in Boise]

"Just give them time."

Should we start a pool, TK? ;)

OT: Today was gorgeous here but the wind is really starting to howl. Here comes another "system" - looks like I'll be working in the garage tomorrow.

[Clarice]

Could it be that they know more about Martin than they are yet making public.

[DebinNC]

Speaking of Wiki, Miami Carol City HS, where Trayvon spent 9th and all/part of 10th grade, is a "drop-out factory" with a 53% graduation rate. It is 86% Black. Krop HS is 28% Black, >40% Hispanic, and 29% White. Quite a change.

[Jim Rhoads a/k/a vjnjagvet]

Have we yet reached the Natalie Holloway level on this story?

[Jack is Back!]

ECM,

They are right about 417. Its a toll road that circumvents the madness known as I-4 from west of Orlando to Sanford. I use it all the time to avoid that part of I-4 when going to and fro the Airport (MCO). But he could walk underneath it along Rinehart Road. I have no idea if there is a convenience store nearby. Lots of people refer to any convenience store as a "7-11" even if its not.

[narciso]

This seems to be it, although I don't know how that overlays with the map, from earlier

[Ignatz]

--DebinNC -- wait, the way Basu writes that, Zimmerman was the one with the Skittles and iced tea.--

This is huge.
If the Skittles were really Zimmerman's and Strayvon was trying to pinch em it's clearly justifiable homicide.
Maybe Florida should pass a "My Skittles? Your Mama!" statute to complement "Stand Your Ground".

[Eric in Boise]

"Have we yet reached the Natalie Holloway level on this story?"

Apparently not:

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/trayvon-martin-nbc-news-editing-911-call-306359

Good grief.

[Porchlight]

I have this weird hinky hunch that Trayvon was never at a 7-Eleven and never purchased Skittles and iced tea.

[Porchlight]

That night, anyway.

[Jack is Back!]

Hmmmm!

2 Forensic sound experts say its not Zimmerman yelling for help on 911 tapes.

Hired by Sentinel not Crump.

[Porchlight]

Okay, guys, Human Achievement Hour is in full swing. Fire up those incandescents in every room of the house!

[Enlightened]

Sound experts/Sentinel -

So-called experts said voice matched GZ 48% and cannot match to TM at all as no voice sample to match to -

Totally inconclusive and inflammatory to say it must be TM if only 48% says it could be TM

What a stupid report

[narciso]

You would think they would point out the fact, that the call was not as determinative as the other evidence,

Evidence against Davalloo includes a security video at Purdue Pharma which shows that Davalloo left the property shortly before 11 A.M. the day of the murder, DNA from bloodstains found on a bathroom faucet handle matched both Davalloo and Raymundo and the initial call to police, which prompted them to find Raymundo's body and was made from a pay phone a half-mile from the murder scene, is consistent with Davalloo's voice

[Enlightened]

**48% says it could be GZ not TM**

[Jack is Back!]

Porch,

2 HD Plasma's up and running - one on NCIS rerun the other on the Kansas-Ohio St. game. Lights on outside and inside. Computers and iPads running at full speed. Just drove back from Orlando in a car with an internal combustion engine, tires fully inflated (based on expert opinion) and GPS as well as Sirius radio while Frederick was watching Transformers 3 on his rear entertainment system. The iPhone is charging while running Trapster, an app.

And not a single particl of CO2 has been seen except in the bottle of Champagne we popped to celebrate Mrs. JiB's finishing her exam:)

Human Achievement despite the f**king roadblocks the left throw in the way.

[narciso]

You know she might have gotten the notion from the movie, Aliens,

On Sunday March 23, 2003 on a quiet afternoon Sheila Davalloo suggested that she and Paul play a harmless little game that she learned at work, and she handcuffed and blindfolded her husband under the pretext of playing a "game". Sheila stabbed her husband with a 4-inch paring knife from the kitchen in the chest twice claiming it was an accident and lost the key to the handcuffs. She then refused to call 911 despite his pleading. Davalloo then grabbed her cell phone and dialled 911 and told Christos that she couldn't get through because the line was busy. Sheila tried to get a nearby doctor to the house but she said they were closed. Sheila found the handcuff key and took Christos to the Westchester Medical Center only after he begged her. Sheila released Paul from the handcuffs and blindfold and put him in the back seat of her car and drove him to the Westchester County Medical Center. Instead of parking in the emergency room lot, she drove to a secluded remote area of the medical center parking lot and stabbed him a third time, piercing his heart.

[Jane]

Hey, Eric in Boise - stick around - we need some Idaho representation around here!

I have this weird hinky hunch that Trayvon was never at a 7-Eleven and never purchased Skittles and iced tea.

Either that or the video shows he forgot to pay for it.

[Rob Crawford]

So-called experts said voice matched GZ 48% and cannot match to TM at all as no voice sample to match to -

In other words -- they cannot say anything about whether it matched St. Trayvon(tm), but there's a good chance it matched Zimmerman.

But they write the headline in the most inflammatory manner possible.

Have I mentioned recently how much I admire Gen. Sherman's attitude towards the press?

BTW -- anyone else disgusted at the studious way the press is ignoring the race-hate mob beating cases from North Carolina and California, while they're busy doing everything they can to stir the flames in this case? And anyone want to bet that the 16 people shot in Miami disappear from the press in a few days?

[Clarice]

don' now what the devil you're talking about , narciso, but that case is made for tv.

[Rick Ballard]

Porchlight,

The 7-11 story has nothing to do with the incident itself. It has to do with narrative development regarding placing a halo on Trayvon™®© by providing a very innocent explanation for him to be out and about. It may even be true but I'd like to see a verifiable time line and the 7-11 receipt would provide a start point. He had every right to be out and about, of course. He might have been selling Girl Scout cookies or running a one man Toys for Tots drive.

[Jack is Back!]

Jayhawks undergoing a complete ass-whuppin so far. It would only be appropriate for an Ohio-Kentucky final. Cradle of B-Ball.

[narciso]

It's like something out of LifeTime, the Fuddle network of choice, Clarice. it happened up in TM's neck of the woods, this is the big case that these experts have cinched before.

[Clarice]

I think the Trayvon retreat has begun,, frankly. I'm always a couple of days ahead of the news trends.. I just have a feel for them. well, it's more than that. I think this, like Fluke, is not proving the Obama booster they thought it would be. People seeing the Justice Brothers, Congresswoman Lee and the mob demanding blood isn't playing so well.

[Jack is Back!]

Here is what a Bukeye looks like. A Big Nut:)

[Threadkiller]

If you are an Army Ranger, stationed overseas, and a terrorist lunges for your weapon, "stand your ground" has no effect.

http://mobile.wnd.com/2012/03/army-ranger-seeking-vindication-for-killing-terrorist/?cat_orig=world

[Sara (Pal2Pal)]

If Macsmind's source at the Sanford Police Dept. is reliable, there were no Skittles or ice tea at the scene.

[swift boater]

When first played to Trayvons father those many weeks ago, he told the police the voice yelling for help was not his sons on the 911 tape.

Lots of things not being mentioned.

[Eric in Boise]

Thanks Jane. I've actually been here for at least three or four years (if not more) as a lurker, on an almost daily basis. I've refrained from commenting because, quite frankly, the depth and breadth of knowledge exhibited by the commenters here blows me away. I just don't feel like I can bring anything to most of the discussions.

But then I read a posting from Dana or Bubu, and I can't help but think "Well, heck, why not?"

[I lost my program.]

Did the good guys win?
============

[Jim Rhoads a/k/a vjnjagvet]

Let's just put it this way, Clarice. Bill Lee is no Bull Conner and there ain't no way the Rev. Al, et al is going to convince any more than @22 1/2 percent of the American People that he is. That will not be good for ElJefe in November.

[Clarice]

Why not, indeed. Welcome to the Hotel JOM, Eric.

[Jack is Back!]

Oh, Oh!

Here comes Kansas. The buckeyes are getting sloppy. But Kansas can't shoot only make layups.

[henry]

Eric, join the crowd. You learn more by posting now & then than by lurking.

[Clarice]

I seem to recall that the expert voice witness I cited the other day about the subject, said cell phones compress the speech so that identification is virtually impossible.

Up above I referred to" pro-Martin" witnesses having memory lapses now, I meant pro-Zimmerman.

[Threadkiller]

And don't worry about not bringing anything to the discussion. I've made an art form out of it.

[DrJ]

Kathy,

Is this your LinkedIn page?

http://www.linkedin.com/pub/kathy-kattenburg/a/34a/274

If so, do you wish to let us know what is in your science background that would enable you properly to evaluate the IPCC report?

And if this is not your profile, do you wish to point to one that might help to clarify what your background might be?

[Ratskeller]

Clarice@ 9:58

I agree with your "retreat" assessment. The narrative builders plan and start this stuff in motion and get the full media buy in. But then none of them can control the Occupiers or the Jackson-Lees and Sharptons, or the Bill Mahers and it blows up in their faces.

[Jack is Back!]

Whoa, Nellie!

Palin faces off against Couric on Tuesday.

Game on, indeed!

Sarah is guest hosting the Today show against GMA with Couric.

I will bet a dozen Dunkin Donuts of your choice that Today will record's its highest audience in a decade on Tuesday.

[Chubby]

(("Just give them time."))

there is usually a lively back and forth among the contributors of the disputed parts of wiki articles that are added or removed. that background material is open and cab be accessed from a link at the top of the page of each article. the contributor debates are quite informative as to the whys and wherfores and justifications for their decisions, removals, additions and changes

[DrJ]

Sh*t. Wrong thread. I'll repost.

[Clarice]

I'd never bet against that one, JiB.

Ratskeller, there's that, and there's also the fact that in the past few years there's a strong, growing alternate media that catches them out. We need to stay lean and get even faster as Nov nears..Right now they still have a couple of days advantage.

[xbradtc]

Zimmermann may well have committed murder or manslaughter.

But so far, I've not seen one credible bit of evidence that contradicts his version of events.

And if it stays like that, the DA is going to have a damn near insurmountable obstacle to overcome in securing a conviction.

Not that it matters. Sooner or later, there's going to be a civil suit, and of course, the DoJ will likely charge him for infringement of civil rights. Win or lose, the process is the punishment.

The reason you better be in fear of death or grievous bodily injury before shooting someone is that your life is going to suck as soon as you pull the trigger.

[narciso]

Revenge is served ice cold, with a side of fresh moose,

[Jack is Back!]

DrJ.

She knows all about physics.

production editor at American Institute of Physics

Back in the day, it was the most frustrating thing I ever did explaining the simple things about engineering, design and construction to journalists. Then they would write it up as if they were the ones with the knowledge. But the extent of that knowledge was what was on their little tape recorder.

[Chubby]

one of the best features of wikipedia, imo, is that you can save any article in pdf form.

[DWPittelli]

This is slightly off the specific topic of "better witnesses." But could someone explain to me why the anti-Zimmerman side is adamant that Zimmerman must be arrested? This seems odd to me for two reasons:

1) So he gets arrested and arraigned. And likely gets out on bail. What have they accomplished besides a perp walk? Isn't it an indictment, a prosecution, and a trial that they should be after, rather than an arrest? (Not that any of these things should be subject to a mob's demands, but in their world where racist prosecutors hold back unless prodded, such demands may make sense from their standpoint.)

2) Video shows Zimmerman handcuffed and taken to the police station. (Where he answered their questions, instead of lawyering up as he could have.) Doesn't that constitute an arrest? If not, what would you call that? They certainly did more than "detain" him. And again, since he already talked, this would seem to leave nothing to gain from (another) arrest.

[Jack is Back!]

Hello!

Kansas within 1. Just in case daddy is not back yet and has to be watching sumo wrestling or japanese baseball.

[Jack is Back!]

DWP,

They don't want an arrest. They want a lynching. They want Spike Lee or Rosanne Barr to be right and have the correct address where they can show up - and do what? Why drag him out and beat the crap out of him, disembowel him and then hang him. Do they not think that the police know where he is so that if they need to arrest him officially?

BTW, local news in Orlando is reporting new audio tapes of the paramedics who took Trayvon to hospital and extent of his injuries. Will try to report after the game.

[Norm]

At this point, networks like CNN can't afford to walk back from the rendition, and characterization, of event that they've been promoting. It will be too damaging to them. So even if we eventually learn that the facts support Zimmerman's defense claim, it's likely that they will continue to report a counterfactual account. It's not simply bias. Their institutional interests are at stake. That's the 900lb Gorilla in the room.

[Clarice]

Pittelli, I believe this is being ginned up by Martin's family's counsel. He would like an indictment and a conviction for something as a step up to a civil suit against Zimmerman, the city of Sanford, the housing development and anyone else there he can find with some shekels in his pocket.Failing that, he's happy to intimidate and poison a future jury civil pool.

[not_bubarooni]

"Thanks Jane. I've actually been here for at least three or four years (if not more) as a lurker, on an almost daily basis. I've refrained from commenting because, quite frankly, the depth and breadth of knowledge exhibited by the commenters here blows me away. I just don't feel like I can bring anything to most of the discussions."

I know just how feel brother...

[Rick Ballard]

Clarice,

I agree re the cool down. St. Trayvon™®© rates a halo about as much as the President rates 'Professor of Constitutional Law'.

This was the Troika of Pinheads in action - Axelplouffe are just handling shoveling up behind them.

[Eric in Boise]

"Welcome to the Hotel JOM"

Thank you, Clarice. if you guys don't hear from me for awhile, I've probably just checked out.

I doubt I'll ever leave.

[narciso]

It seems a fair amount of 'facts not evidence'
in this account

http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/31/2725442/what-is-known-what-isnt-about.html

[For amber waves of grain.]

Hay Jocks.
====

[Chubby]

what Zimmerman said when he got into the police are at the scene of the incident interested me:

((After placing Zimmerman in his police vehicle, Officer Smith heard Zimmerman say, "I was yelling for someone to help me, but no one would help me source: wikipedia))

I have been wondering about this. The witness "John" ran to call 9/11. Yes, it would take incredible guts to intervene in a brawl like that, but it still seems sad that no one did.

[Jack is Back!]

When you think how much we had to endure with O. J. can you imagine how long this sorry excuse for a police procedural is going to run?

Tight game in N'loeans. Ohio State's resident genius screws up. To bad, good kid but stupid move.

[Dublindave]

"Dazed, touching his head and acting in shock as if (just thinking out loud here) wounded "

The same wounds we DIDN'T see in the ABC video?Simplest explanation;Zimmerman just realized he had murdered an innocent child who was walking down the street eating skittles.

[The Imp]

Very funny, 11:19. I Googled def and images. Is that the color of your underwear or a fingerslip on "h"?

[Sara (Pal2Pal)]

OT: Sorry for changing the subject, but I missed this on the 29th, did any of you see it?

Stunning Finding: President's Health Law Creates $17 Trillion In Unfunded Financial Obligations

[Jane (Bad says Obama sucks)]

Eric IB,

Every time I hear someone say that stuff (people are too smart here) I wonder what the hell I'm doing here. The coolest part about JOM is we all learn from each other. It 's raw power.

[Chubby]

((Rick, I find it interesting that Wiki is using the "more favorable" picture of Zimmerman along with the "less favorable" pic of Martin.))

at the current time, it is the more favorable picture of both

[Eric in Boise]

Jane,

The best thing about lurking is that it's absolutely zero risk. Unfortunately, as both you and Henry mentioned, there is a hidden risk...the risk that you won't really learn anything; or at least not as much.

I guess it doesn't really matter what the hell we're doing here if we're learning something, right?

I'll start small. My goal will be to learn how to use italics in a post without polluting the whole blasted thread.

[BR]

Okay, Eric, try your italics. I'll stand by :)

Happy April Fool's Day!

[Sara (Pal2Pal)]

Eric, if you use Firefox, download the HTML toolbar.

[xbradtc]

The same wounds we DIDN'T see in the ABC video?Simplest explanation;Zimmerman just realized he had murdered an innocent child who was walking down the street eating skittles.

Crappy footage from a surveillance camera. That footage is hardly conclusive, though others have pointed out what appear to be wounds to his head.

But what we HAVE seen is a police report that states he had injuries consistent with his statement to the police. And I suspect sooner or later we'll have information from the EMTs that responded and treated him prior to his transport to the police station.

Many of us on the right complain about agenda journalism. That tape was a prime example. It was neither proof he had injuries, nor proof that he had none. Yet ABC proclaimed it in a manner that led you to believe he had non.

[Captain Hate]

Welcome aboard, Eric.

Self > Matta and it's not even close.

[RichatUF]

Eric, welome aboard.

My goal will be to learn how to use italics in a post without polluting the whole blasted thread.

Sort of like this < i > text to put in italics < / i >

remove the spaces inside the brackets

text to put in italics

[RichatUF]

This was the Troika of Pinheads in action...

Would seem tone deaf to inflame people along the I4 and I95 corridors. But then forward thinking isn't their strong suit.

[Dublindave]

But what we HAVE seen is a police report that states he had injuries consistent with his statement to the police.

Zimmerman stated that he was attacked by TM with such force and brutality he feared that he would die if he didn't shoot Trayvon.And you can see the damadge Zimmerman sustained during that horrific ecounter........well,actually you can't.

You can't see a single bruise or grass stain and even a drop of blood on Zimmermans body or clothing.Nothing.

When the head and the nose receive enough trauma to make them bleed they bleed profously.Like a tap.Look at the video again,look at Zimmermans clothes,in particular his t-shirt and the back of his jacket.

There is no blood.

[jimmyk]

who among us would want to self-identify as the most important witness for Zimmerman's defense?

Wouldn't it be ironic if the case were brought to trial and a judge decided that because of all the intimidation and inflammatory rhetoric of Sharpton, Jackson, et al, it's impossible for Zimmerman to get a fair trial. I'm not sure procedurally how or at what point that could happen, but if witnesses are changing their stories, it makes any trial highly problematic.

[Rob Crawford]

The same wounds we DIDN'T see in the ABC video?

StumblinDave, that "video" was taken by aiming a phone camera at a monitor. Surveillance cameras are notoriously bad, phone cameras are notoriously bad, the phone compressed the video (throwing out contrast and color range), then who knows what ABC did do it -- beyond placing graphics at curiously convenient locations and times, that is.

I seem to recall that the expert voice witness I cited the other day about the subject, said cell phones compress the speech so that identification is virtually impossible.

Yes. You recognize the voice on the other end largely because the caller identifies themselves.

[Rob Crawford]

And you can see the damadge Zimmerman sustained during that horrific ecounter........well,actually you can't.

There is no legal requirement to actually suffer grievous bodily harm before defending yourself.

You really should stick to trying to guess the outcome of CSI. Hint: if one of the suspects was a lead actor in a SciFi channel series, he's usually the murder. If not, he committed some contributory crime.

[Rob Crawford]

Many of us on the right complain about agenda journalism. That tape was a prime example. It was neither proof he had injuries, nor proof that he had none. Yet ABC proclaimed it in a manner that led you to believe he had non.

The same with the voice experts story linked above -- a fair assessment was "toss up", yet it was pushed as damning Zimmerman.

[sk]

I usually don't post, but would like to make a few comments.

First, the girlfriends account actually seems to backup Zimmerman. She never claims he was belligerent towards Trayvon. Also, the police had stated that they knew about the girlfriend but that she refused to speak with them or that her testimony was unreliable. I would like to know more details regarding that.

Even without the witness who saw Z on the ground we have the injuries as evidence. His multiple wounds on the back of his head (visible in the higher res vid) backup his claims. Medical records will do the same. An eye witness is not necessary to prove Z's claims.

Cutcher and/or roommate claim he held his head after the attack... I would do the same if I had multiple lacerations in that location. As and aside, she is constantly referring to Trayvon as the "boy" or even "little boy" even after knowing his age... I find that a bit weird.

[Sara (Pal2Pal)]

And you can see the damadge Zimmerman sustained during that horrific ecounter........well,actually you can't.

So you believe that the police and paramedic reports are lies?

[xbradtc]

Zimmerman stated that he was attacked by TM with such force and brutality he feared that he would die if he didn't shoot Trayvon.And you can see the damadge Zimmerman sustained during that horrific ecounter........well,actually you can't.

As noted above, the requirement isnt' that you SUSTAIN grievous bodily injury or death (that would kinda defeat the purpose), but have a reasonable fear that you may face GBI or death. As an example, you don't have to actually get stabbed by someone to have a reasonable fear of someone with a knife.

I don't know, nor claim to know what precipitated the physical confrontation between Martin and Zimmermann, but I do know this, if someone is on top of me and beating me, I'm going to fear for my life.

[BR]

Video of Sheriff Arpaio's March 31, 2012 press conference posted an hour ago at Westernjournalism.com.

[Sara (Pal2Pal)]

Somewhere I read or heard several days ago that Zimmerman said that when he reached for his cell phone, Trayvon saw his gun and told Z he was going to die that night. When did this happen? To me, this would be a pretty scary threat, so knowing more detail would help put to rest whether Z was in fear for his life. Did it happened when Trayvon came back and is that why he attacked Z? Did he cold-cock him in order to disarm and shoot him?

[xbradtc]

Sara, I've heard much the same, but not seen a primary source. But if that is Zimmermann's statement, it is uncorroborated. I haven't seen any evidence that contradicts that, mind you, just that it is his statement alone and no other witness has confirmed it.