The Perils Of Placating Progressive Paranoia

Judd Legum of Think Progress delivers the "five of the most important" questions of the Trayvon Martin investigation.  Question 1 brings a smile:

1. What was the purported “conflict” that required the initial prosecutor to step down? On March 22 — after several weeks on the job — state attorney Norm Wolfinger stepped down from his role as prosecutor in the Trayvon Martin case. Wolfinger relinquished his post after meeting with Florida Gov. Rick Scott and Attorney General Pam Bondi. He said it was necessary for him to step aside to preserve “the integrity of this investigation,” adding he wanted to avoid “the appearance of a conflict of interest.” He did not explain why his continued involvement would damage the integrity of the case or explain the potential conflict he was seeking to avoid. Did anyone at the prosecutor’s office know Zimmerman or his family? [Orlando Sentinel]

Interesting.  The family had demanded a new investigation, they got one, and it is Very Suspicious!  Had they not gotten a new investigation, well, that would be Very Suspicious too.  The state can't win for playing.

The family and their attorneys had been screaming that the Sanford PD had botched the investigation, that a new look was needed, and that the Feds ought to step in.  For flavor, here is a NY Times headline and an Orlando Sentinel clip.  The Times, March 16:

Justice Department Investigation Is Sought in Florida Teenager’s Shooting Death

The Sentinel, March 17 (same story, the 911 calls, but the next day's dateline)

Both lawyers characterized what they heard as "murder" and said Zimmerman should be arrested immediately and federal authorities should take over the case.

...

At a press conference Friday morning, Trayvon's parents said that in the three weeks since he was killed, their trust in the Sanford Police Department has disappeared.

Tracy Martin, father of the slain teen, told reporters he felt "betrayed" by law enforcement investigating his son's death because they have not arrested the shooter.

"It's a shame that he's [Trayvon] not getting any justice. We're not, as a family, getting any closure," the elder Martin said. "I feel betrayed by the Sanford Police Department and there's no way that I can still trust them in investigating this crime."

So the state appoints a new prosecutor with no ties to the Sanford PD or the city of Sanford, and Suspicions Are Raised.  Let's clip a bit more from the linked story announcing the new prosecutor, since Mr. Legum's excerpter seems to have broken:

Florida Gov. Rick Scott and Attorney General Pam Bondi have appointed a special prosecutor to investigate the shooting death of Trayvon Martin, removing the state attorney who had been considering the case.

Scott and Bondi appointed State Attorney Angela B. Corey, whose office handles cases in Duval, Clay and Nassau counties.

Also on Thursday, Scott created a task force headed by Lt. Gov. Jennifer Carroll to review Florida's 2005 "Stand Your Ground" law, which allows people to use deadly force if they think their lives or others' are in imminent danger or they face "great bodily harm."

Brevard-Seminole State Attorney Norm Wolfinger relinquished the investigation after a talk with Scott and Bondi, according to a statement from the governor's office. Wolfinger signed a letter requesting the special prosecutor, saying he was acting "with the intent of toning down the rhetoric and preserving the integrity of this investigation."

...

"In the interest of the public safety of the citizens of Seminole County and to avoid even the appearance of a conflict of interest, I would respectfully request the executive assignment of another state attorney for the investigation and any prosecution arising from the circumstances surrounding the death of Trayvon B. Martin," Wolfinger wrote.

...Scott said he is creating the task force on the gun law because of the public outcry over the case.

Benjamin Jealous, president and chief executive of the national NAACP, and Turner Clayton, president of the Seminole County NAACP, applauded the move but said they would not rest until Zimmerman is arrested and convicted.

As to what that conflict of interest might have been, I will offer the obvious guess in a moment.  But the notion that there is some mysterous conflict of interest that mysteriously prompted the sudden withdrawal of the prosecutor, and that this is the most important question swirling about the case, is absurd.  The public was howling and the prosecutor was scalped.

Now, the obvious conflict: the endgame for Ben Crump, the Martin family attorney, is justice for the family; "justice" with Mr. Crump typically includes a big payday from a civil wrongful death suit.  Since a big settlement requires a deep-pocketed defendant, the City of Sanford is a likely place to look.

Thus, as with every other city in America, there is a tension between the goal of investigating crimes and the goal of sparing the taxpayers from huge bills attributable to police misbehavior.  The solution in this country has not been to have the Feds investigate everything but it may be that in this case the City of Sanford really does have a bit of a stake in clearing their police department. 

OK, tying the City of Sanford to the death won't be easy, but... normally gun permits are granted at the local level - how did Sanford handle that? [Answer - by not doing it; Rob Crawford tells us that the FL Dept of Ag And Conumer Services handles gun permits; sue them]  I would start there.  Criticizing them for a slow respnse to the 911 calls looks hopeless, but who knows - even a minute could have saved a life, so evidence that a responding officer settled his tab at the doughnut shop before rolling could be critical.

Could there be other conflicts?  George Zimmerman's dad was a retired magistrate somewhere, and may have friends in the Florida justice system.  Yeah, yeah.  I would start with looking at the money.

And lest they have not realized it already - I am sure that most of the folks screaming for an immediate arrest of George Zimmerman on no evidence are well intentioned (despite a hazy grasp of US law, whch likes to see probable cause).  However, Ben Crump very much needs an arrest and, even better, a criminal trial,to advance his eventual civil suit.

The OJ Simpson civil jury famously overcame his criminal acquital and (due to a different jury and a lower burden of proof) found him civily liable for the death of Nicole Simpson and Ron Goldman.  Ben Crump can overcome an eventual acquital, but arguing wrongful death when no one has been arrested probably exceeds even his skills.  IANAL, so I welcome guidance from the ambulance chasers distingished jurists out there.

HEY, SHOULDN'T 'MR. WONDERFUL' KEEP GOING?  Not a bad question...

OK, I can quit anytime, but (2) is a layup:

2. Why did the prosecutor ignore the recommendations of the lead homicide investigator? ABC News reported that Chris Serino, the lead homicide investigator on the Trayvon Martin case, recommended that Zimmerman be charged with manslaughter on the night of the shooting. Serino filed an affidavit that night stating “he was unconvinced Zimmerman’s version of events.” As the lead homicide investigator, Serino was: 1. In the best position to evaluate Zimmerman’s credibility, and 2. Intimately familiar with Florida law. Why was he ignored?

Really?  First, as noted the person who ignored the recommendation is out and we don't know what will happen next.

Secondly, from my extensive review of Law and Order it is not unusual for investigators to have a gut feel that the suspect is lying and for prosecutors to insist that unless the invvestigators entrails can testify, actual charges and an actual trial require actual evidence.  C'mon, that scene is staged 12 times a day every day on cable.  Is "real life" really that different?  Let's cut back to Ta Nehisi-Coates and his advice from a former homicide prosecutor from Florida:

1.) I don't believe Mr. Zimmerman's story (presuming that what is in the report is truly what he told the police), but more importantly, 

2.) What prosecutors believe is not nearly as important as what they can prove. I can not stress this enough, and my mind is about to explode with all of nonsense being written about what the government can and cannot do. It is up to the government, not anyone else, to prove that Zimmerman is lying.

Third, who knows how the wind was blowing on this case, or an other?  It may be that the lead investigator routinely urges prosecution figuring (a) it won't be his sorry ass in the courtroom with no case, and (b) no one can ever call him 'weak on crime' later, since he wants to try everyone on someone else's dime. 

Or maybe the lead investigator could see pretty quickly that the fecal matter and the whirling fan were colliding on this case, so he went into CYA mode and recommended prosecution based on evidence he couldn't turn up.

Frankly, if I were the prosecutor I would be deeply irked by this back-stabbing and would strongly urge the guy to do his job and develop the case or STFU.  But whatever.  As to the idea that this is an important Unsolved Mystery, well, send better questions.

QUITTING SOON BUT... (3) is not that better question:

3. Why did then-Police Chief Bill Lee make public statements directly contradicting the official recommendations of the police department? On the day the Sanford Police concluded their investigation and handed over the case to the prosecutor, then-Police Chief Bill Lee stated publicly that there was no “probable cause” to arrest or charge Zimmerman. (Lee has subsequently “temporarily” stepped down from his post.) But the Miami Herald reports that on the same day the Sanford Police formally requested that the prosecutor charge Zimmerman, something known as a “capias” request. [ThinkProgress]

We have cites of the chief's thinking in a post below; this is from the Times, March 16:

“The evidence doesn’t establish so far that Mr. Zimmerman did not act in self-defense,” Chief Bill Lee of the Sanford police said this week, responding to why Mr. Zimmerman had not been arrested. He said he would welcome a federal investigation. “We don’t have anything to dispute his claim of self-defense at this point.”

Oh, let's proudly show our commitment to recycling!  Here is one of the Sanford investigators, on the record and hinting at dissension back on March 17 in the Orlando Sentinel:

Investigator Chris Serino of Sanford police said Friday the agency has worked closely with prosecutors, and have not arrested Zimmerman because prosecutors have consistently told them they do not have enough evidence to win a manslaughter conviction.

That's because Zimmerman says he was defending himself, something he's allowed to do under Florida law.

On my scorecard I just won 3 and 2, but never having won at match play before, I might be wrong.

NEWTON MAY HAVE BEEN RIGHT ABOUT MOMENTUM:

4. Who leaked Trayvon Martin’s school records? As public outrage increased, Zimmerman’s sympathizers launched a smear campaign against Trayvon Martin. This included details of several occasions where Martin was suspended for minor infractions (defacing a locker, possessing an empty “marijuana baggie.”) None of the information seemed to have any particular relevance to the night Trayvon Martin was shot to death. Was this a ham-handed attempt by the police or the prosecutor to defend their lack of action against Zimmerman?

As to relevance, Zimerman's critics insist he engaged in racial profiling. On the 911 call, he says Martin looked like he was on drugs; a school suspension for drug use might time in to that (a tox screen might be helpful, although I am far from an expert on how accurately those tests determine timing of drug use) and suggest that Zimmerman actually did see someone staggering down the street in a drug-induced haze.

But set that aside - yes, it was a ham-handed attempt to bolster the "Save George (and our jobs)" faction.  No kidding.  So what?  People who thought that the month long campaign to tar Zimmerman and the Sanford PD as racist would go unanswered were probably not thinking.

And why not:

5. Why was Trayvon Martin’s body tagged as a John Doe? The Washington Post’s Jonathan Capehart notes a police report “that was completed at 3:07 a.m. on Feb. 27 lists Trayvon’s full name, city of birth, address and phone number.” But yet, Trayvon’s body was reportedly “tagged as a John Doe” and his father wasn’t informed of his death until after he filed a missing person report later on the 27th. Why weren’t Trayvon Martin’s parents contacted immediately after the police confirmed his identity? [Washington Post]

Beats me.  Any guess would be in the "Wild Ass" area.  For example, the cell phone baffles me and everything I have read suggest the police fell down in not locating the girlfriend sooner.  Possible explanations for why it was not used to immediately track down his parents - it was password protected, the battery died, it was set to buzzer and no one heard it ring, space aliens ate it - did I mention that I don't know but would like to?

However, as to the clear fact that Trayvon Martin is IDed in the police report yet (per the Sanford FAQ) the family did not make the ID until "late" the following morning, well, it's puzzling.  Maybe the name was added to the report later - I have no idea if that might be acceptable procedure.

But from a different perspective, what difference does it make in terms of evaluating the case against Zimmerman?  Is the argument that the police might have taken a different approach in the first few hours if they had known that Trayvon Martin belonged in the neighborhood?  What different evidence might that have generated?

The timing of the ID in the report is a puzzle, but if I could rub a magic lantern and get answers to five questions, that would not make the list.

So what would make the list?  Hmm.  I prefer questions that might have a useful answer.  As an example of a bad uestion, was the City of Sanford worried about possible liabilty in a wrongful death suit?  On one level, of course they were.  But no one will ever admit it and there will never be a smoking gun memo ordering the investigators or DA into the tank to save the city's taxpayers, so I wouldn't waste a question on it.

Two obvious ones - what happened with the cell phone that they (apparently) never got ahold of Trayvon Martin's girlfriend?  Letting Ben Crump unveil her after the 911 tapes had been made public was not helpful to the investigation, since the defense will allege that her memory may have been supplemented or complemented by the information from those tapes. She is not as credible a witness as she could have been if the police had gotten a statement from her early on (assuming they didn't).

Second, was George Zimmerman tested for drugs and alcohol? That's an easy yes or no and a reporter could expect an answer.  It would be nice to get the result, too, but I'll settle for knowing the test was done.

I won't waste a question asking whether the police documented his wounds; I assume that if the DA had a report which read that Zimmerman claimed self-defense but had no wounds, this case (and the leaks) would play out differently.  People worried about some conspiracy in which the police, the prosecutor and the defense all know Zimmerman can't prove he had wounds will want to use a question on this.  Same thing with the forensics - if Martin was shot in the back, for example, it would take a notable cover-up for us to be where we are.

Third question - where was the body found (the police report seems clear but confirmation would be useful), where was Zimmerman's vehicle recovered, and what was the walking distance separating them?  This blogger puts the death just to the right of his letter A; that works for me, and I am now waffling about my guess that final spot was a bit more towards the top of the map (I am missing a link to a third blogger who also makes the spot to the right of the A).  That said, I think we differ by a distance of maybe 20-30 yards, which may not mean much.

Fourth question - relating to the possible state of mind of one of the two fight participants and the ability of George Zimmerman to pick out people on drugs or acting oddly - did Trayvon Martin have any drugs or, for example, a half-empty flask of whiskey (some might say half-full) on him?

The NY Timies is unequivocal on this point (my emphasis):

MIAMI — Nearly three weeks after an unarmed teenager was killed in a small city north of Orlando, stirring an outcry, a few indisputable facts remain: the teenager, who was black, was carrying nothing but a bag of Skittles, some money and a can of iced tea when he was shot.

It is indisputable because the family said so; there has been no release of a police inventory from the crime scene.  Nor should there be, since the victim and his family have privacy rights, but this is my magic lantern.  Eventually the tox screen will provide an answer, I assume; the family could no doubt publicize that answer as soon as it is available, and a decision not to do so might be revealing.  Some enterprising reporter willing to deviate from the narrative might want to ask Mr. Crump about that.  As if.

Fifth question - can I ask for more questions?  Ahh, the question genie hates that one.  How about some suggestions?

Comments

[Ignatz]

My concern for Zimmerman is, assuming the facts are as he states, that the state will decline to prosecute him but that Holder's race mongers will harass and ruin the guy's life prosecuting him on some bogus civil rights angle.

[narciso]

Now, TM, the distinction is that Seminole county did operate that bootcamp where Anderson did perish, that's one rather deep pocket, that I would find rather unlikely they can go to that pot again,

[Jay]

Why did the prosecutor ignore the recommendations of the lead homicide investigator?

Um, that would be because the lead investigator's boss and the chief of police, along with the prosecutor disagreed.

Note:
A source with knowledge of the investigation into the shooting of Trayvon Martin tells theGrio that it was then Sanford police chief Bill Lee, along with Capt. Robert O'Connor, the investigations supervisor, who made the decision to release George Zimmerman on the night of February 26th, after consulting with State Attorney Norman Wolfinger -- in person.

LUN.

[narciso]

Meanwhile, this doesn't even register on the radar;

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/03/29/family-demands-to-know-if-weapons-used-to-kill-ice-agent-could-have-been-seized/#comment#ixzz1qW4JzcdA

[PaulL]

what Trayvon thinks

[Forbes]

I'm always fascinated by calls for a federal investigation, as the feds would have no jurisdiction to bring murder charges in such cases. As a commenter above notes, federal charges would amount to some alleged civil rights violation, which, while death could be viewed as a civil rights violation, it would be a perverse misuse of the law. The result would simply be mob justice--is that where we want to go?

[Rob Crawford]

OK, tying the City of Sanford to the death won't be easy, but... normally gun permits are granted at the ocal level - how did Sanford handle that?

Florida is an oddball; permits are handled at the state level by the Department of Agriculture and Consumer Services.

[Rex]

Yes, you won 3&2.

For the non-golfers who are also non-golf fans, the score in match play is hole by hole instead of total number of strokes. You start out even, or all square as the terminology has it. If you win the first hole, you are then 1-up. Lose the next and you are back to all square. As you get closer and closer to the last hole, you eventually reach a point where you would win even if you lost every remaining hole. A score of 7&5 (Paula Creamer's score against Laura Davies in Paula's first Solheim Cup) means that Paula was 7-up with 5 holes remaining. So when you see a score like 3&2, that means you are 3-up with only two holes remaining. Since Judd Legum had 5 questions and our host had won 3 at the time, his score was 3&2.

[Clarice]

Beautiful work, TM.
Now, if Trayvon's father thought he'd just gone to the 7-11, and a shot was heard in the neighborhood and he didn't report his son missing or walk out to see what had happened, what are we to think?

Tray was not staying with his dad and his girlfriend?
His father was used to Trayvon's unexplained absences and didn't care even if the kid had just been shipped to him because he'd been suspended from school and his mother didn't want him hanging around her house?
What?
Am I missing something?

[narciso]

Keep in mind Legum was Hillary's research director, and you wonder how she got as far as she did.

[GMAX]

Think Progress = Emote Progressively

Judd Dadgum is just carrying on the long glorious tradition. Somebody must be guilty, there is a gun involved.

[narciso]

He's another GeorgeTown Law grad, like the future fluke, aren't the Hoyas proud.

[Porchlight]

Clarice, Trayvon's father said he was out to dinner with his girlfriend at the time of the shooting.

I assume Trayvon kept his own hours because apparently the father didn't check to see if Trayvon was home when he returned, or he did check, and didn't think anything of Trayvon's absence until the next morning.

[Danube of Thought]

would be a perverse misuse of the law

See, e.g. Stacy Koon and Laurence Powell.

[Clarice]

Thanks, Porch. So, the story is trayvon's dad and current gf saw him leave, went out to dinner, didn't see or hear him return and did nothing.

[Chubby]

((and did nothing.))

until the next morning when the dad phoned the police and then police paid them a visit with a picture of T shot dead

[Porchlight]

He may have been home when they left, Clarice, but he was not home when they returned - and yes, they did nothing.

[Danube of Thought]

O/T: In Memoriam, Earl Scruggs.

[narciso]

I'm disapointed that Carroll took the bait with that taskforce on revising SYG, but then again I'm used to disapointment by now.

[Clarice]

If they were not home when he left, they cannot know where he went or when, right?

[Ignatz]

--See, e.g. Stacy Koon and Laurence Powell.--

Yeah I had Stacey Koon's name at the end of my comment at the start of the thread then excised it figuring it would only lead bubu and like minded clowns down a rabbit trail.
Let's see if it does now. :)

[Porchlight]

OT but I'm not sure which is the Obamacare thread today - two essential WSJ pieces:

Editorial: The ObamaCare Reckoning

and

Taranto: Will The High Court Vindicate Vinson?

One cannot help but be buoyed by Kennedy's remarks, such as (from the first piece):

But Justice Anthony Kennedy doubted Justice Ginsburg's logic, since by taking out only the individual mandate the Court would in effect be creating a new law that Congress "did not provide for, did not consider." To wit, costs would soar without any mechanism to offset them.

"When you say judicial restraint," Justice Kennedy said, "you are echoing the earlier premise that it increases the judicial power if the judiciary strikes down other provisions of the act. I suggest to you it might be quite the opposite." Overturning the mandate alone, he continued, "can be argued at least to be a more extreme exercise of judicial power than to strike the whole."

And Taranto notes that Kennedy sounds amazingly like Vinson at several points.

[jimmyk]

To put a less damning spin on the father, the timing seems consistent with a father who doesn't keep his 17-year-old on a very tight leash--lets him go out at night on his own, doesn't ask that he check in--and probably went to sleep figuring that his son was out late. He woke up the next morning and didn't realize the son never came home (maybe assumed he was still sleeping). Not great parenting, especially if the son has been getting into trouble, but not the portrait of a monster either.

It is a bit surprising, if I have the timing right, that they came home and remained unaware of the crime scene in their neighborhood, but I'm going to give them the benefit of the doubt that that was what happened.

[Clarice]

Fair enough, jimmy. I'm just trying to get the fact picture. There have after all been reports that he was in the morgue for 3 days before being ID'd.

[narciso]

Jacobsen tackled this, in a previous link,

[Porchlight]

If they were not home when he left, they cannot know where he went or when, right?

True. I just checked to be sure and that is how their statement is being reported - that he and a sibling were home when they left the house.

[narciso]

Meanwhile it's as obvious as sun rising in the EAst;

http://www.tabletmag.com/jewish-news-and-politics/94872/peter-beinarts-false-prophecy/?all=1

[Clarice]

BTW, narciso, Jerusalem Post reported yesterday that Israel now has an air base in Azerbaijan

[narciso]

What I was referring to, in the LUN.

[Threadkiller]

How old is the sibling that was left at home, alone, when Trayvon went out?

[narciso]

I know but it comes from Mark Perry, who halucinates, CIA plots galore. by Jundallah,
the MEK et al. so so,me caution is in order;

[jimmyk]

I wonder if this girl is Trayvon's cousin:

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/highschool-prep-rally/south-carolina-teen-brutal-soccer-attack-earns-assault-103322121.html

[Porchlight]

TK, I am reading that the sibling is a younger brother, but I haven't yet found any info on how old he is.

[Enlightened]

I have a real problems with the girlfriends story -

At 7:09 Zimmerman called 911. About 50 seconds into the call he says TM is staring at him. About a minute 3 seconds later Z says TM is coming towards him. About 45 seconds after that Z says TM is moving toward the other or back entrance. At about 2 minutes and 10 seconds he says TM is running, about 7:11 pm (Why would TM walk towards someone and then turn and run?)

[Martin family attorney] Crump said Martin got off the phone with the girl for a few minutes because it started to rain and he was running to get under shelter.- said he had his hoodie ON to get out of the rain - Call is picked up again at about 7:12. (So Zimmerman did see him run - at about 7:11 pm) Girlfriend says TM said someone was watching him so he pulled on his hoodie (contradicts the attorney who said he had it on to get out of the rain - girlfriend says he only pulled it on when he thought he was being watched?) TM tells her he "lost" the man. She tells him to run. He says he's not going to run (makes no sense since he "ran" for cover from rain just a minute ealier) TM says he's gonna "walk fast, from the back" So what is "the back" - the "backyard area" or the "back entrance" or the "back side of Zimmerman" (Zimmerman says he came up behind him - or "from the back)

[narciso]

Tim Blair's law is in full effect;

http://pjmedia.com/tatler/2012/03/29/afrolantica-part-12-critical-race-theorys-distortion-of-trayvon-martin/

[Porchlight]

Here's a photo of Trayvon with his younger brother. The brother looks significantly younger, but it's hard to say b/c I don't know how old Trayvon is in this photo:

http://gossiponthis.com/2012/03/20/911-calls-released-trayvon-martin-shooting-death/trayvon-martin-shooting-4/

[bunkerbuster]

What kind of country is it going to be if anyone can shoot anyone else, confess to it, then claim self-defense and declare it's up to the state to disprove the violent intent of the deceased.
If we intend to remain a civilized country, we're going to have restore and maintain the long-established practice with lethal force outside the home, ie that the threatened party must retreat whenever possible.
If we're going to have widespread handgun ownership, there is no sane choice but to require the fullest possible investigations of any and every shooting of an unarmed person.
I'm pretty sure the police stand to lose the most should we fail to do that, followed closely by law-abiding citizens who carry firearms -- a ready-made threat that will, in a "stand your ground" legal system be nearly impossible to disprove.

[Rob Crawford]

I have a real problems with the girlfriends story -

It's never lined up with the 911 calls or witness testimony.

Regardless -- note that nothing she claims to have heard puts Zimmerman in the wrong.

[Porchlight]

TK's question intrigues me. Let's guess and say the brother is 13. He's old enough to be left home alone while Trayvon goes to the store. But when Trayvon doesn't return all night, what does the brother think? He said he'd be right back.

But what if the brother is 8 or 9? That is plausible according to the photo I linked above - they could easily be 8 years apart.

If the brother is too young to call his parents when Trayvon doesn't return, then Trayvon shouldn't have left him at home alone. If he's old enough to call his parents, why didn't he?

[Rob Crawford]

What kind of country is it going to be if anyone can shoot anyone else, confess to it, then claim self-defense and declare it's up to the state to disprove the violent intent of the deceased.

That's not what the state has to do, bubu. Who tells you these lies?

If we intend to remain a civilized country, we're going to have restore and maintain the long-established practice with lethal force outside the home, ie that the threatened party must retreat whenever possible.

If we wish to return to a civilized country, then we must make it clear that if you assault someone, you are taking your life into your own hands. The intended victims may be armed, and they are under no responsibility to give way in the face of *your* violence.

If we're going to have widespread handgun ownership, there is no sane choice but to require the fullest possible investigations of any and every shooting of an unarmed person.

What does being "unarmed have to do with it? An "unarmed" person can still kill.

And, as you've been shown a hundred times, this case was fully investigated. Your dislike for the results of the investigation do not give you grounds to ignore its existence.

Do you put on clown makeup before you post these things, or is it just who you are?

[matt]

Princess Shopping Cart is jetsetting again with the kids.

Mt. Rushmore, Las Vegas, San Fran, and LA. LUN

[NK]

BuBu @12:46 comment has nothing to do with this case, but he makes (without any snark)a social policy argument. I'd like to hear Po and RobC's rebuttal, also without snark.

[Enlightened]

"What kind of country is it going to be if anyone Zimmerman can shoot anyone Martin else, confess to it inform the police he shot him, then claim self-defense and the laws of Florida declare it's up to the state to disprove the violent intent of the deceased"

Fixed that for you.

[Stephanie]

The most polite city in the United States is Kennesaw, Georgia.

They have a must own gun law. They also have very low crime stats... Anyone want to hazard a guess why?

[narciso]

I think Gerecht made these arguments earlier, in the Journal, the author is however conflating this coverage with Miller pre Gulf War, and not Sanger's leaks of invasion plans,

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4209836,00.html

[NK]

OK I saw RobC@12:53-- much as it pains me, sofar I am more persuaded by BuBu@12:46. Use of a firearm by a victim in a public street against an unarmed assailant must be 'last resort'. I agree with 'stand ground' in principle (retreat in some cases must be more dangerous) but when you pull and fire and kill an unarmed assailant, that had better be justified.

[Rex]

BB, your concerns don't correspond with what the apparent "facts" of the case are. Is there any doubt in anyone's mind that if the police hadn't seen blood on Zimmerman or the bumps on the back of his head, he would have been arrested and charged with murder?

[jimmyk]

I'm not Po or RobC, but the bubu's first paragraph is silly. He wants to do away with the presumption of innocence.

The rest of it may be worth discussing. I'd need to understand more about the law before coming down on "Stand your ground" versus "duty to retreat," at least outside one's home or property.

[NK]

Rex-- the responding cop recommended arrest- the police chief ordered GZ released. That was a mistake IMO. Apparently Chief Lee, agrees he relieved himself of duty.

[NK]

JimmyK@1:00-- I agree; gun sales are through the roof (Ruger is sold out and not taking new orders). We better come up with clearly understood gun use rules in this country. In your home, farm/ranch or business- we have ancient 'castle' rules, any thug busting in assumes the risk of a permanent dirt nap. On the street? we better come up with clearer rules than we have now.

[Rob Crawford]

Use of a firearm by a victim in a public street against an unarmed assailant must be 'last resort'.

Drop the "unarmed" and I agree. It's always the last resort. Which is what I've always said.

Rex-- the responding cop recommended arrest- the police chief ordered GZ released.

The investigating officer recommended charges. His boss and the prosecutor disagreed. Guess who makes the final decision?

That was a mistake IMO.

Why does that matter?

Apparently Chief Lee, agrees he relieved himself of duty.

Under political pressure.

[Rob Crawford]

Is there any doubt in anyone's mind that if the police hadn't seen blood on Zimmerman or the bumps on the back of his head, he would have been arrested and charged with murder?

There were also witnesses that Zimmerman was being beaten.

[boris]

I'd need to understand more about the law before coming down on "Stand your ground" versus "duty to retreat,"

That is more of a citizen vs subject question. Self defense is not conditional.

[narciso]

Of the 7 shootings that provoked the series of incidents, that I mentioned on previous
occasions, two have proved justified but tragic, that didn't stop the city commission
from dismissing the police chief, even if they
had to break the rules to do it. I'll wager
nearly all, will prove the same, but the damage is done. with the DOJ's Perez moving in for the kill.

[Porchlight]

Rex-- the responding cop recommended arrest- the police chief ordered GZ released. That was a mistake IMO. Apparently Chief Lee, agrees he relieved himself of duty.

So anyone who resigns under pressure must be guilty of something, else why would they resign - is that your thinking?

Sounds pretty circular to me.

[NK]

RobC-- actually those were mine you responded to. Wow, I'm more pro victim than you. If an assailant attacks with a lethal weapon knife, gun whatever-- drop 'em dead wwhere they stand. I issue medals for that.

[Rob Crawford]

We better come up with clearly understood gun use rules in this country.

We have them, for the most part. There are gray areas, but you can get sufficient clarity as to what is legal and what's not -- at least, in your state -- in a few hours of study. There's actually a book published each year that summarizes each state's gun laws; it's not difficult reading and mostly it's the same.

BTW, not every state has a "castle doctrine" law. I know that New York does not, for example.

And this case didn't even involve the "stand your ground" law. Zimmerman didn't have a chance to retreat -- and evidence is he was moving back to his truck when he was attacked.

[Enlightened]

"Apparently Chief Lee, agrees he relieved himself of duty"

No - Lee relieved himself temporarily because he was becoming a distraction to the case. He welcomes a federal investigation.

Wolfinger the DA also recused himself since he insisted the SPD get more evidence to arrest Zimmerman.

Neither of the above is an admission of a mistake or mishandling.

[NK]

Porch-- why circular? If Chief Lee's judgment were exemplary, why leave duty? I think Chief Lee wish's he'd accepted the cop's recommendation, arrested GZ on suspicion, checked out the story, had the prosecutor present to a grand jury with all mitigating evidence, have the GJ deny a true bill. How far would the race hustlers gotten if he had done that? His bad judgment gave the race hustlers an angle IMO.

[Rob Crawford]

Wow, I'm more pro victim than you. If an assailant attacks with a lethal weapon knife, gun whatever-- drop 'em dead wwhere they stand. I issue medals for that.

Actually, you're not. If someone attacks with their fists -- drop 'em dead where they stand.

[Ignatz]

--I'd need to understand more about the law before coming down on "Stand your ground" versus "duty to retreat," at least outside one's home or property.--

The 'stand your ground' law is a response to the absurd and expanding legal doctrine that if someone is threatened or assaulted and doesn't run away they are potentially fully or partially criminally culpable and civilly liable for what then occurs, even if they were doing nothing wrong.

[Enlightened]

OMG - What next.

"Trayvon Martin Sympathizer Arrested After Threatening to Hunt Down Police Chief & His Family “Like a Dog”

[NK]

Rob@1:16-- disagree with that. fists are a gray area, where the full circumstances will define the legal outcome. Let's say, on a public street Mike Tyson calls a 40yo Banker's wife a "hot white bitch" she turns confronts him and punches him in the face-- he shoots her dead with a Baretta 9mm. Justified? No crime?

[Enlightened]

Sorry - LUN for previous post

[narciso]

Remind me, again when Alberto Gonzalez, John Yoo, Karl Rove stepped down, they were guilty
as well, I know different circumstances but still.

[NK]

Ig-- correct, that's where the stand your ground statutes are coming from. But apparently, those statutes may be adding confusion.

[Ignatz]

--Use of a firearm by a victim in a public street against an unarmed assailant must be 'last resort'.--

They already are.
Had Martin only spat on Zimmerman or cursed him, Z would be in the hoosegow on murder 2 or manslaughter charges.
Surely a broken nose and having ones head pounded into the concrete should qualify as last resort.

[NK]

Ig-- probably-- I want to know more facts.

[Ignatz]

--Let's say, on a public street Mike Tyson calls a 40yo Banker's wife a "hot white bitch" she turns confronts him and punches him in the face-- he shoots her dead with a Baretta 9mm. Justified? No crime?--

The existing standard is a reasonable belief your health or life are in imminent peril.
Would Tyson's belief be reasonable? Obviously not.

[Ignatz]

--Ig-- probably-- I want to know more facts.-

Me too. And I want fewer rumors, suppositions and speculations parading as facts. Not accusing you of any of those, BTW.

[NK]

Ig@1:24 Take that up with RobC (BTW- risk of life threatening or serious injury is the usual legal standard.).

[Enlightened]

"His bad judgment gave the race hustlers an angle IMO"

No - The race hustlers have only one angle -black versus white.

What you are saying is that the Chief should have treated a black victim of a non-black suspect differently than any other suspect/victims to assauge race baiters.

[buzz]

As for the stuff about Zimmerman's father being a retired magistrate, the lefty blogs are swimming with talk that he somehow got off because of his dad. I don't have confirmation where the dad was a magistrate, but since they lived in Virginia until a few years ago that's a pretty safe guess. Here's the thing - being a magistrate in Virginia is not that big a deal. It's a quasi-judical position that doesn't require a law degree. There are several hundred of them in the state. They do things like sign off on arrest warrants, subpoenas, etc., but they can't even rule on speeding tickets. His dad might have some pull in Virginia because he would know a lot of the cops, but I highly doubt that the authorities in Flordia would jump through hoops for someone because they used to have a mid-level judicial job in another state.

[NK]

Ig@1:26 -- again take that up with RobC his conclusion is there is NO EVIDENCE of a crime here. RobC I am not knocking you here, but I really disagree with that 'conclusion', way premature IMO.

[Threadkiller]

Bunker, what kind of country indeed.

http://jonathanturley.org/2012/03/07/obamas-kill-policy/

You new found concerns makes it easy for me to say that today, bunker, we are brothers.

[Captain Hate]

O/T Per Tammy Bruce, Soledad O'Brien has the lowest viewership of any CNN morning show in more than a decade.

[narciso]

'We're through the looking glass, yes it's a red flag, who he's associated with.

http://dailycaller.com/2012/03/29/latino-organizations-dismiss-george-zimmerman-question-his-ethnicity/

[NK]

Enlightened@1:27-- you're being unfair-- I suggest that Chief Lee should have treated more thoroughly a situation where a man shoots dead an unarmed 17yo on the street.

[lyle]

The result would simply be mob justice--is that where we want to go?

Too late for that. The race hustlers have unleashed the mob and the effing press abets it.

Have I mentioned how much I loathe the press lately?

[FRONT TOWARD LEFT]

How far would the race hustlers gotten if he had done that?

When I first heard this story last week, the race hustlers' facts as the media presented them without question were that a white, racist, wife-beating, cop-assaulting, mall-ninja, self-appointed neighborhood watch captain executed an innocent, angel-faced little boy in cold blood with a handgun.

What possible difference could a grand jury no bill have made?

[Rob Crawford]

fists are a gray area, where the full circumstances will define the legal outcome. Let's say, on a public street Mike Tyson calls a 40yo Banker's wife a "hot white bitch" she turns confronts him and punches him in the face-- he shoots her dead with a Baretta 9mm. Justified? No crime?

*sigh*

Tyson initiated the encounter. He's at fault.

[boris]

In the Martin case, a month old now, there is one narrative with witnesses, physical evidence, 911 recordings and the survivors statement.

Unless another credible witness comes forward these are the facts.

[buzz]

here's some more info about the power (and lack thereof) of magistrates in Virgina

http://www.courts.state.va.us/courtadmin/aoc/djs/programs/mag/about.html

[narciso]

'the more selective' marketing plan, didn't work, or people were drawn to the post Derrick Bell carwreck, ala Rock Center, and
then ran for the hills,

[Threadkiller]

Porch, they seem to be avoiding the Martin family values. The sibling will not be interviewed, imo.

[Rob Crawford]

again take that up with RobC his conclusion is there is NO EVIDENCE of a crime here.

From what we know, Zimmerman's actions were within the bounds of self defense. Florida law says that's not a crime.

It's more than there being no evidence of a crime -- the evidence says his actions were not criminal.

RobC I am not knocking you here, but I really disagree with that 'conclusion', way premature IMO.

I don't care if you disagree. That's the conclusion the prosecutor came to, because he didn't/doesn't have evidence to contradict the claim to self defense.

[NK]

RobC -- you're joking at 1:33... right?

[Danube of Thought]

Meanwhile, up the road in Carolina:

SENECA, SC (FOX Carolina) -

Seneca police said they arrested six men Wednesday in connection with the beating of a North Carolina man at Applebee's earlier in March.

Police said their investigation determined that the victim was beat by the group of men and the incident may have been racially motivated. The department said they forwarded the case to the FBI to determine if it should be pursued further as a hate crime under federal law.

Officers said all six suspects were charged with assault and battery by a mob in connection with the March 17 beating.

The suspects are Teryn Robinson, 18, Tray Holland, 19, Justin Alexander, 20, Derick Williams, 22, Kino Jones, 25, and Montrez Jones, 22. Police said all of them are from the Seneca area and were taken into custody without incident.

[FRONT TOWARD LEFT]

RobC -- you're joking at 1:33... right?

What's funny about that?

[Ignatz]

--Ig@1:26 -- again take that up with RobC his conclusion is there is NO EVIDENCE of a crime here.--

If you mean evidence of a crime by Zimmerman I also am having a hard time seeing it.
There is incontrovertible evidence that a homicide occurred and substantial physical evidence and statements from Zimmerman and other witnesses that Martin committed a crime against Zimmerman. Martin's death, Zimmerman's exiting his auto, Zimmerman's possession of a firearm constitute evidence of an incident, but as yet not of a crime. Perhaps there is more evidence which would implicate Zimmerman. I haven't seen it.

Got work to do and then off for a CT scan this afternoon to check the old air pumps. Toodle oo.

[NK]

RobC-- the local prosecutor has said a State and fed review of the case is warranted, the Police Chief-- temporarily-- relieved himself of Duty, the Govenor and State AG said a full review of the facts are warranted. OK-- there is conclusive proof no crime could have possibly occured. OK got it.

[Threadkiller]

Order to Strike looks more like Not in My Backyard (or how to write nutty stuff and not get accused of being a nut):

Alabama Supreme Court Justice Tom Parker noted in the Order to Strike Hugh McInnish's Petition for Writ of Mandamus:

"Mclnnish has attached certain documentation to his mandamus petition, which, if presented to the appropriate forum as part of a proper evidentiary presentation, would raise serious questions about the authenticity of both the "short form" and the "long form" birth certificates of President Barack Hussein Obama that have been made public."

http://obamareleaseyourrecords.blogspot.com/2012/03/alabama-supreme-court-serious-questions.html?m=1

[Jim,MtnViewCA,USA]

I'm seeing conflicting descriptions of the general sequence. Could someone tell me if one of these is correct? Or are both still in doubt?
1) Z was following TrM around
2) Z got out of his car to get an address for police, then returned to his vehicle but was attacked on the way back to the vehicle

[NK]

Ig-- best of luck with the scan.

[Danube of Thought]

I wouldn't vote for a law like Florida's. I think it is an invitation to the kind of tragedy we are looking at here. Common-law self defense--which may be present here--works for me.

[NK]

JimM-- 1 & 2 is the account GZ gave to the police.

[Enlightened]

"I suggest that Chief Lee should have treated more thoroughly a situation where a man shoots dead an unarmed 17yo on the street"

No, I'm not trying to be unfair to anyone - the Chief is not allowed to treat cases differently than what the law requires - he has to follow the law regardless of who the suspect/victims are.....otherwise he finds himself resigning temporarily for a litany of reasons for every case.

He did the right thing by stepping out of the case now that the race baiters have jumped in and creat poisoned the publicity pool - and let his actions be properly reviewed. There is nothing untoward about his actions then or now by stepping away, except for the crazies that now want to kill him and his family too.

[qrstuv]

NK "Let's say, on a public street Mike Tyson calls a 40yo Banker's wife a "hot white bitch" she turns confronts him and punches him in the face-- he shoots her dead with a Baretta 9mm. Justified? No crime? "

You're missing the part where the shooter has to credibly be in fear for his life.

You're a dishonest hack.

[Threadkiller]

"Kino" and "Montrez" are still available to trademark.

[Pofarmer]

Tne whole thing is one long straw man argument.

"What kind of country is it going to be if anyone can shoot anyone else, confess to it, then claim self-defense and declare it's up to the state to disprove the violent intent of the deceased."

What is the alternative in a State of Free Citizens? It's up to the State to prove you guilty.

"If we intend to remain a civilized country, we're going to have restore and maintain the long-established practice with lethal force outside the home, ie that the threatened party must retreat whenever possible."

So, if someone is in fisticuffs with you, the answer is to try to run away at whatever costs. If you don't run away, no matter the provocation, you are guilty of a crime? That's how the old laws were.

"If we're going to have widespread handgun ownership, there is no sane choice but to require the fullest possible investigations of any and every shooting of an unarmed person."

Armed or unarmed has zero to do with it. I havr no knowledge if another person is armed.

"I'm pretty sure the police stand to lose the most should we fail to do that, followed closely by law-abiding citizens who carry firearms -- a ready-made threat that will, in a "stand your ground" legal system be nearly impossible to disprove."

Under what bubu proposes, it's exactly the law abiding citizens who stand the most to lose. Look at crime stats in Washington or Chicago. If we criminalize every act of self defense, then we become a nation of sheep, with wolves in our midst, and become easy prey. The gang bangers and thugs would like nothng better. The vast majority of gun owning, gun toting citizens are a direct threat to. NOONE except those that directly threaten them. By all means, let's remove all means of self defense, or ,ake the laws so convoluted that we wonder if we defend ourselves if we will go to jail or be persecuted in the media. By all means. That leads to many more of us dead.