The Perils Of Placating Progressive Paranoia

Judd Legum of Think Progress delivers the "five of the most important" questions of the Trayvon Martin investigation.  Question 1 brings a smile:

1. What was the purported “conflict” that required the initial prosecutor to step down? On March 22 — after several weeks on the job — state attorney Norm Wolfinger stepped down from his role as prosecutor in the Trayvon Martin case. Wolfinger relinquished his post after meeting with Florida Gov. Rick Scott and Attorney General Pam Bondi. He said it was necessary for him to step aside to preserve “the integrity of this investigation,” adding he wanted to avoid “the appearance of a conflict of interest.” He did not explain why his continued involvement would damage the integrity of the case or explain the potential conflict he was seeking to avoid. Did anyone at the prosecutor’s office know Zimmerman or his family? [Orlando Sentinel]

Interesting.  The family had demanded a new investigation, they got one, and it is Very Suspicious!  Had they not gotten a new investigation, well, that would be Very Suspicious too.  The state can't win for playing.

The family and their attorneys had been screaming that the Sanford PD had botched the investigation, that a new look was needed, and that the Feds ought to step in.  For flavor, here is a NY Times headline and an Orlando Sentinel clip.  The Times, March 16:

Justice Department Investigation Is Sought in Florida Teenager’s Shooting Death

The Sentinel, March 17 (same story, the 911 calls, but the next day's dateline)

Both lawyers characterized what they heard as "murder" and said Zimmerman should be arrested immediately and federal authorities should take over the case.

...

At a press conference Friday morning, Trayvon's parents said that in the three weeks since he was killed, their trust in the Sanford Police Department has disappeared.

Tracy Martin, father of the slain teen, told reporters he felt "betrayed" by law enforcement investigating his son's death because they have not arrested the shooter.

"It's a shame that he's [Trayvon] not getting any justice. We're not, as a family, getting any closure," the elder Martin said. "I feel betrayed by the Sanford Police Department and there's no way that I can still trust them in investigating this crime."

So the state appoints a new prosecutor with no ties to the Sanford PD or the city of Sanford, and Suspicions Are Raised.  Let's clip a bit more from the linked story announcing the new prosecutor, since Mr. Legum's excerpter seems to have broken:

Florida Gov. Rick Scott and Attorney General Pam Bondi have appointed a special prosecutor to investigate the shooting death of Trayvon Martin, removing the state attorney who had been considering the case.

Scott and Bondi appointed State Attorney Angela B. Corey, whose office handles cases in Duval, Clay and Nassau counties.

Also on Thursday, Scott created a task force headed by Lt. Gov. Jennifer Carroll to review Florida's 2005 "Stand Your Ground" law, which allows people to use deadly force if they think their lives or others' are in imminent danger or they face "great bodily harm."

Brevard-Seminole State Attorney Norm Wolfinger relinquished the investigation after a talk with Scott and Bondi, according to a statement from the governor's office. Wolfinger signed a letter requesting the special prosecutor, saying he was acting "with the intent of toning down the rhetoric and preserving the integrity of this investigation."

...

"In the interest of the public safety of the citizens of Seminole County and to avoid even the appearance of a conflict of interest, I would respectfully request the executive assignment of another state attorney for the investigation and any prosecution arising from the circumstances surrounding the death of Trayvon B. Martin," Wolfinger wrote.

...Scott said he is creating the task force on the gun law because of the public outcry over the case.

Benjamin Jealous, president and chief executive of the national NAACP, and Turner Clayton, president of the Seminole County NAACP, applauded the move but said they would not rest until Zimmerman is arrested and convicted.

As to what that conflict of interest might have been, I will offer the obvious guess in a moment.  But the notion that there is some mysterous conflict of interest that mysteriously prompted the sudden withdrawal of the prosecutor, and that this is the most important question swirling about the case, is absurd.  The public was howling and the prosecutor was scalped.

Now, the obvious conflict: the endgame for Ben Crump, the Martin family attorney, is justice for the family; "justice" with Mr. Crump typically includes a big payday from a civil wrongful death suit.  Since a big settlement requires a deep-pocketed defendant, the City of Sanford is a likely place to look.

Thus, as with every other city in America, there is a tension between the goal of investigating crimes and the goal of sparing the taxpayers from huge bills attributable to police misbehavior.  The solution in this country has not been to have the Feds investigate everything but it may be that in this case the City of Sanford really does have a bit of a stake in clearing their police department. 

OK, tying the City of Sanford to the death won't be easy, but... normally gun permits are granted at the local level - how did Sanford handle that? [Answer - by not doing it; Rob Crawford tells us that the FL Dept of Ag And Conumer Services handles gun permits; sue them]  I would start there.  Criticizing them for a slow respnse to the 911 calls looks hopeless, but who knows - even a minute could have saved a life, so evidence that a responding officer settled his tab at the doughnut shop before rolling could be critical.

Could there be other conflicts?  George Zimmerman's dad was a retired magistrate somewhere, and may have friends in the Florida justice system.  Yeah, yeah.  I would start with looking at the money.

And lest they have not realized it already - I am sure that most of the folks screaming for an immediate arrest of George Zimmerman on no evidence are well intentioned (despite a hazy grasp of US law, whch likes to see probable cause).  However, Ben Crump very much needs an arrest and, even better, a criminal trial,to advance his eventual civil suit.

The OJ Simpson civil jury famously overcame his criminal acquital and (due to a different jury and a lower burden of proof) found him civily liable for the death of Nicole Simpson and Ron Goldman.  Ben Crump can overcome an eventual acquital, but arguing wrongful death when no one has been arrested probably exceeds even his skills.  IANAL, so I welcome guidance from the ambulance chasers distingished jurists out there.

HEY, SHOULDN'T 'MR. WONDERFUL' KEEP GOING?  Not a bad question...

OK, I can quit anytime, but (2) is a layup:

2. Why did the prosecutor ignore the recommendations of the lead homicide investigator? ABC News reported that Chris Serino, the lead homicide investigator on the Trayvon Martin case, recommended that Zimmerman be charged with manslaughter on the night of the shooting. Serino filed an affidavit that night stating “he was unconvinced Zimmerman’s version of events.” As the lead homicide investigator, Serino was: 1. In the best position to evaluate Zimmerman’s credibility, and 2. Intimately familiar with Florida law. Why was he ignored?

Really?  First, as noted the person who ignored the recommendation is out and we don't know what will happen next.

Secondly, from my extensive review of Law and Order it is not unusual for investigators to have a gut feel that the suspect is lying and for prosecutors to insist that unless the invvestigators entrails can testify, actual charges and an actual trial require actual evidence.  C'mon, that scene is staged 12 times a day every day on cable.  Is "real life" really that different?  Let's cut back to Ta Nehisi-Coates and his advice from a former homicide prosecutor from Florida:

1.) I don't believe Mr. Zimmerman's story (presuming that what is in the report is truly what he told the police), but more importantly, 

2.) What prosecutors believe is not nearly as important as what they can prove. I can not stress this enough, and my mind is about to explode with all of nonsense being written about what the government can and cannot do. It is up to the government, not anyone else, to prove that Zimmerman is lying.

Third, who knows how the wind was blowing on this case, or an other?  It may be that the lead investigator routinely urges prosecution figuring (a) it won't be his sorry ass in the courtroom with no case, and (b) no one can ever call him 'weak on crime' later, since he wants to try everyone on someone else's dime. 

Or maybe the lead investigator could see pretty quickly that the fecal matter and the whirling fan were colliding on this case, so he went into CYA mode and recommended prosecution based on evidence he couldn't turn up.

Frankly, if I were the prosecutor I would be deeply irked by this back-stabbing and would strongly urge the guy to do his job and develop the case or STFU.  But whatever.  As to the idea that this is an important Unsolved Mystery, well, send better questions.

QUITTING SOON BUT... (3) is not that better question:

3. Why did then-Police Chief Bill Lee make public statements directly contradicting the official recommendations of the police department? On the day the Sanford Police concluded their investigation and handed over the case to the prosecutor, then-Police Chief Bill Lee stated publicly that there was no “probable cause” to arrest or charge Zimmerman. (Lee has subsequently “temporarily” stepped down from his post.) But the Miami Herald reports that on the same day the Sanford Police formally requested that the prosecutor charge Zimmerman, something known as a “capias” request. [ThinkProgress]

We have cites of the chief's thinking in a post below; this is from the Times, March 16:

“The evidence doesn’t establish so far that Mr. Zimmerman did not act in self-defense,” Chief Bill Lee of the Sanford police said this week, responding to why Mr. Zimmerman had not been arrested. He said he would welcome a federal investigation. “We don’t have anything to dispute his claim of self-defense at this point.”

Oh, let's proudly show our commitment to recycling!  Here is one of the Sanford investigators, on the record and hinting at dissension back on March 17 in the Orlando Sentinel:

Investigator Chris Serino of Sanford police said Friday the agency has worked closely with prosecutors, and have not arrested Zimmerman because prosecutors have consistently told them they do not have enough evidence to win a manslaughter conviction.

That's because Zimmerman says he was defending himself, something he's allowed to do under Florida law.

On my scorecard I just won 3 and 2, but never having won at match play before, I might be wrong.

NEWTON MAY HAVE BEEN RIGHT ABOUT MOMENTUM:

4. Who leaked Trayvon Martin’s school records? As public outrage increased, Zimmerman’s sympathizers launched a smear campaign against Trayvon Martin. This included details of several occasions where Martin was suspended for minor infractions (defacing a locker, possessing an empty “marijuana baggie.”) None of the information seemed to have any particular relevance to the night Trayvon Martin was shot to death. Was this a ham-handed attempt by the police or the prosecutor to defend their lack of action against Zimmerman?

As to relevance, Zimerman's critics insist he engaged in racial profiling. On the 911 call, he says Martin looked like he was on drugs; a school suspension for drug use might time in to that (a tox screen might be helpful, although I am far from an expert on how accurately those tests determine timing of drug use) and suggest that Zimmerman actually did see someone staggering down the street in a drug-induced haze.

But set that aside - yes, it was a ham-handed attempt to bolster the "Save George (and our jobs)" faction.  No kidding.  So what?  People who thought that the month long campaign to tar Zimmerman and the Sanford PD as racist would go unanswered were probably not thinking.

And why not:

5. Why was Trayvon Martin’s body tagged as a John Doe? The Washington Post’s Jonathan Capehart notes a police report “that was completed at 3:07 a.m. on Feb. 27 lists Trayvon’s full name, city of birth, address and phone number.” But yet, Trayvon’s body was reportedly “tagged as a John Doe” and his father wasn’t informed of his death until after he filed a missing person report later on the 27th. Why weren’t Trayvon Martin’s parents contacted immediately after the police confirmed his identity? [Washington Post]

Beats me.  Any guess would be in the "Wild Ass" area.  For example, the cell phone baffles me and everything I have read suggest the police fell down in not locating the girlfriend sooner.  Possible explanations for why it was not used to immediately track down his parents - it was password protected, the battery died, it was set to buzzer and no one heard it ring, space aliens ate it - did I mention that I don't know but would like to?

However, as to the clear fact that Trayvon Martin is IDed in the police report yet (per the Sanford FAQ) the family did not make the ID until "late" the following morning, well, it's puzzling.  Maybe the name was added to the report later - I have no idea if that might be acceptable procedure.

But from a different perspective, what difference does it make in terms of evaluating the case against Zimmerman?  Is the argument that the police might have taken a different approach in the first few hours if they had known that Trayvon Martin belonged in the neighborhood?  What different evidence might that have generated?

The timing of the ID in the report is a puzzle, but if I could rub a magic lantern and get answers to five questions, that would not make the list.

So what would make the list?  Hmm.  I prefer questions that might have a useful answer.  As an example of a bad uestion, was the City of Sanford worried about possible liabilty in a wrongful death suit?  On one level, of course they were.  But no one will ever admit it and there will never be a smoking gun memo ordering the investigators or DA into the tank to save the city's taxpayers, so I wouldn't waste a question on it.

Two obvious ones - what happened with the cell phone that they (apparently) never got ahold of Trayvon Martin's girlfriend?  Letting Ben Crump unveil her after the 911 tapes had been made public was not helpful to the investigation, since the defense will allege that her memory may have been supplemented or complemented by the information from those tapes. She is not as credible a witness as she could have been if the police had gotten a statement from her early on (assuming they didn't).

Second, was George Zimmerman tested for drugs and alcohol? That's an easy yes or no and a reporter could expect an answer.  It would be nice to get the result, too, but I'll settle for knowing the test was done.

I won't waste a question asking whether the police documented his wounds; I assume that if the DA had a report which read that Zimmerman claimed self-defense but had no wounds, this case (and the leaks) would play out differently.  People worried about some conspiracy in which the police, the prosecutor and the defense all know Zimmerman can't prove he had wounds will want to use a question on this.  Same thing with the forensics - if Martin was shot in the back, for example, it would take a notable cover-up for us to be where we are.

Third question - where was the body found (the police report seems clear but confirmation would be useful), where was Zimmerman's vehicle recovered, and what was the walking distance separating them?  This blogger puts the death just to the right of his letter A; that works for me, and I am now waffling about my guess that final spot was a bit more towards the top of the map (I am missing a link to a third blogger who also makes the spot to the right of the A).  That said, I think we differ by a distance of maybe 20-30 yards, which may not mean much.

Fourth question - relating to the possible state of mind of one of the two fight participants and the ability of George Zimmerman to pick out people on drugs or acting oddly - did Trayvon Martin have any drugs or, for example, a half-empty flask of whiskey (some might say half-full) on him?

The NY Timies is unequivocal on this point (my emphasis):

MIAMI — Nearly three weeks after an unarmed teenager was killed in a small city north of Orlando, stirring an outcry, a few indisputable facts remain: the teenager, who was black, was carrying nothing but a bag of Skittles, some money and a can of iced tea when he was shot.

It is indisputable because the family said so; there has been no release of a police inventory from the crime scene.  Nor should there be, since the victim and his family have privacy rights, but this is my magic lantern.  Eventually the tox screen will provide an answer, I assume; the family could no doubt publicize that answer as soon as it is available, and a decision not to do so might be revealing.  Some enterprising reporter willing to deviate from the narrative might want to ask Mr. Crump about that.  As if.

Fifth question - can I ask for more questions?  Ahh, the question genie hates that one.  How about some suggestions?

Comments

[matt]

ext;

It's the hole going out that's the issue. The one going in is small, and depending on the caliber, distance, velocity, etc either the bullet bounces around inside the recipient or if powerful enough goes right through, leaving a large exit wound.

I haven't seen too many calibers that would bounce someone upright unless they might be wearing body armor, which diffuses the shock.

Also, close range shooting can often spatter blood on the shooter depending upon the distance.

Unless one knows all of the circumstances, this case is opaque. The police probably have interviews and all sorts of forensics in the file now and we don't know squat except what each side is leaking.

[Jane]

I'm working on it Janet, altho it will more than likely be a live stream if anything. It's tough to have no power.

[boatbuilder]

Jane--I did tell you that you are my hero. The cluelessness of the party pros is really discouraging. They are so used to dealing with the press that they have internalized the mindset. (Frau, I told you that you are my hero too, and of course you are, but that was at least in part for making me seem way sharper than I really am, and way ahead of the curve on gender issues. Heh.)

[boris]

"you repeatedly accused me of intentionally or at least recklessly misrepresenting what RobC said"

Never said intentionally. Never said recklessly. Never said misrepresenting.

Only repeating as challenged.

This is why "polite" is a waste of civility with you. Besides the only less than polite thing I wrote was that you are being an ass. Based on this comment right here ... you still are.

[narciso]

Congrats Jane, they really do need some serious schooling,

[boatbuilder]

Going out on a limb here, Bubu, but I suspect the reason is that the evidence that they had corroborated his story that he acted in self-defense.

[NK]

Po-- there is going to be a grand jury starting April 10th. The State Atty will layout the known evidence of wrongful killing (killing an unarmed man) and --hopefully the exculpatory evidence of self-defense. The Grand Jury will be charged to determine if there is probable cause (guilt is irrelevant) to believe a wrongful killing occured. The prosecutor will tell the GJ that the only way that they should refuse to return a true bill, is if the GJ believes that the evidence of self defense definitively proves there is no probable cause to conclude a wrongful killing occured. I'm not optimistic the GJs will decide that based on the known facts. rosecutor gets his indictment.

[rse]

Yea Jane!!

Janet-Given rigoberta's history of lying. she should have kept quiet.

[Steve]

"... Unless one knows all of the circumstances, this case is opaque. The police probably have interviews and all sorts of forensics in the file now and we don't know squat except what each side is leaking. ..."

but if Zimmerman had Martin's blood on him would the Police have allowed the paramedics to clean him up? I do not like to blame the police in these incidents, but they really need to establish where the two people were in relation to each other when the shot was fired.

[Ranger]

Anyone got a got reason Zimmerman wasn't arrested for involuntary manslaughter?

Because he claimed self-defense, and the bulk of the evidence supported that claim.

[NK]

Boris@815-- I'm glad you cleared that up, you acknowledge that I never misrepresented anything. Works for me-- good. As for as your opinion that I'm an ass, I can live with that; consider the source.

[NK]

Ranger-- GZ wasn't arrested because the prosector claims he couldn't show probable cause at that time. That's all we can say right now.

[Extraneus]

thank you for deviating for the trollbait topic of this stale thread

If ever a thread needed it, this is the one, CH.

Italian pharmacists threaten to halt Viagra sales

MILAN (AP) -- Hospital pharmacists are threatening to cut Italians off from their Viagra unless the government amends its plans to reform professions that have high entry barriers.

[Another Bob]

Regards some of the ballistics questions...

No small arms round would "launch' anyone backwards when hit with it. Simple matter of insufficient energy.

Predictions of what damage the shot did are impossible. Would depend on what sort of round was used, shot placement, what Martin was wearing, what the bullet struck after entering the body, etc.

The only two sorts of wounds that are more or less immediately incapacitating are hits to the CNS (brain or spinal cord), or those that cause immediate loss of blood pressure (e.g. aorta).

[Ignatz]

--I'm not optimistic the GJs will decide that based on the known facts.--

The few facts I've seen would lead me not to indict were I on the GJ.
But if the prosecutor wants an indictment then slap a few slabs of George between a couple of slices of rye and you've got a fine ham sandwich.

[Danube of Thought]

"Making my point that you have a track record of threatening unoprovoked violence against Muslims."

Your premise was that you were going to shoot me. The ten seconds starts when you go for your gun.

No statement I have ever made would be sufficient to place any particular Muslim in such fear of bodily harm that, without more, he could lawfully shoot me, whether I am armed or not. It is not remotely a close call. You are very stupid in your pursuit of this issue. I cannot help you on that score.

[MarkO]

Let me here predict that it is almost certain that Zimmerman will be arrested and charged with some count of homicide, likely manslaughter. He will be denied bail. I predict all of this without knowing whether he lied about his injuries or knowing the more particular evidence about the shooting, such as blood splatter, position of entry wound, toxicology.

None of those will matter. He must be arrested and he must sit in jail. It is the will of the Congressional Black Caucus and Oprah. Fear is a great motivator. There is fear in Florida. Great fear. There may be enough fear to convict him, despite the evidence. If there is something to be learned so far from this case, it is that mobs, in person, in Congress and on television are effective. And frightening.

Does this sound familiar to anyone who remembers the turmoil of the '50's?

[Sara (Pal2Pal)]

From both the witness statement that Trayvon was on top of Zimmerman and Zimmerman was yelling "Help," and the recording, where we hear the calls for help (almost screams), and then the shot, and then the witness saying that the next he saw was Trayvon lying lifeless next to Zimmerman on the ground, it sounds as if Z shot and maybe pushed Martin off him at almost the same time or Martin fell off him to the side.

Also, from the still shots I saw at Gateway Pundit, I think it is crystal clear that Zimmerman has a good sized gash on the back of his head and it looks as if he has a bandage over the top of his nose. Head wounds bleed like crazy and always look terrible until you get the blood cleaned off. If he was cleaned up by the paramedics, I think the wounds look about what I'd expect. I would like to see pictures from the next day when the bruises start to show on his face.

[Steve]

I do not think there was blood on Zimmerman. And if there was no blood and he is saying he shot Martin when Martin was on top of him, then the police have to look for microscopic splatters of blood, establish the angle of the entry of the bullet, how close the gun was to him.

[narciso]

The odd thing as David Stoll, pointed out in his investigation, there was enough truth about the brutal counterinsurgency campaign, that one didn't have to embellish, just as
the tragic nature of this incident, is sad enough,

[boris]

"It resulted directly in the Tyson hypothetical precisely because it was so all inclusive"

You can't seriously take Rob C's response to NK's "assailant attack with lethal weapon" as applicable to a subsequent hypo completely different.

If NK were choking someone's wife and her husband pulls out a knife to defend her ... are you really saying it's deserving a medal for NK to draw and fire killing the husband?

If an assailant attacks with a lethal weapon knife, gun whatever-- drop 'em dead wwhere they stand. I issue medals for that.

Seems like NK's statement is "pretty definitave" wouldn't you say?

[Danube of Thought]

There's never enough about you, Jane. You're a treasure.

[Sara (Pal2Pal)]

Congratulations Jane. I love it that you are having so much fun.

[MarkO]

I am stunned, however, that so many people assume there is no evidence when there clearly will be. The fact that we don't know it is currently irrelevant.

I don't know what happened and I don't have enough evidence available to make a reasonable judgment on probable cause for arrest much less conviction.

But, I stick with my prediction.

[Threadkiller]

Sorry about that narciso, just grabbing a headline for the Hell of it.

I assume he is in the same league as the infowars guy that chubby warned me about.

[MarkO]

Jane, Jane, Jane!

[Jane]

The cluelessness of the party pros is really discouraging.

Boatbuilder,

It really really is. I consider myself clueless compared to a lot of the people here, but the entrenched power players are so out of touch it is beyond amazing.

you know we really should take over.

[Ranger]

Well, lets go through the circumstances as we know them.

Zimmerman remained at the scene waiting for the police to show up.

Zimmerman waived his rights and agreed to speak to the police on the night of the incident.

Zimmerman claimed self-defense because a guy hit him in the face, knocking him to the ground, then got on top of him bashing his head into the ground.

Zimmerman showed signs of having taken a least one blow to the the face.

Zimmerman had fresh grass on his back and wounds to the back of his head.

Unidentified male had a gunshot wound to the chest.

At least two witnesses stated they saw Zimmerman (the guy in the red shirt) on the ground getting beaten.

At least one witness who saw Zimmerman getting beated specifically heard Zimmerman calling for help and ran to call 911 because of that plea for help.

I don't think there are very many DAs in the country that would have wanted to arrest him that night given all that.

[Janet]

I just saw an ad for Good Morning America & Katie Couric is gonna be a guest host...Good Lord. Millions of Americans & they just keep recycling the same losers.

I would love a new conservative channel. Fresh faces...new people. Some Americans outside of the bubble, like Jane. Can you imagine how refreshing that would be? Heck, there could be a JOM show with the talent here.

[Captain Hate]

Congrats Jane

[boris]

"you acknowledge that I never misrepresented anything"

More lies NK. I wrote that I never used the word. On the issue if "misrepresent" requires intent we are simply not in agreement. My position is that it does not, in which case you clearly did misrepresent Rob. Further more I only called you on your false statement of Rob's position one time until challenged by Ignatz.

[Jane]

Aww Dot, I feel the exact same way about you. I really didn't post that for praise. I was just so excited that it turned out that way that I wanted to share it.

[narciso]

Thee sad thing is I've seen at least three books of his, at any one time, in the Barnes
and Nobles, and usually at least one in the public library, 'Mister Bin Laden is (most assuredly dead) there are questions as to who covered up his presence, as Rashid points out,
but lets not go there,

[scott]

My interest in this case is waning, but I wonder when is ABC gong to send their crack reporter to the 7-11 to interview the clerk and get the video of Martin?

I wonder too, about the younger child alone with all the fighting, gundshot, sirens, flashlights waving around. He must have been terribly frightened. Or he may have had Spongebob on loud enough to miss the whole thing.

And did detectives knock on his door? Did he hide under the bed?

[Jane]

Heck, there could be a JOM show with the talent here.

I keep saying we should do a weekly podcast. I'd host it in a second. We just need someone who can do the technical stuff.

[Threadkiller]

Deal.

[sbw]

Jane, you win by converting people one conversation at a time. You did very well!

[Captain Hate]

O/T (of course) Updated Pauline Kael: http://www.nypost.com/p/news/opinion/opedcolumnists/supreme_shock_for_la_la_libs_LkWBvHWTzeCs4gvA3hdHKJ

[matt]

great job, Jane!

So did anyone see that Roseanne Barr posted Zimmerman's parent's address on Twitter. Never was there a more appropriate name for a service used by an unfunny comedienne.

So what is her liability if someone goes to the door and injures someone or worse? Accessory? In a lot of states, accessory carries the same penalty as the act itself.

[henry]

A gem in the robocalls-- a live Romney tele-town hall. He's launching on Obama right now.

[Threadkiller]

With ABC playing the role of Tom Bradly, what kind of riots are we to expect?

Or is Obama going to buy the world a beer just in the nick of time and maintain his hero status?

[narciso]

There's a lot of room, in that bathysphere,
it's like the TARDIS, bigger inside than out,
Captain,

[Enlightened]

Florida doesn't have involuntary manslaughter- they don't break it down that way

[centralcal]

Have been much too busy to keep up, can only barely lurk, so has anyone offered a reason for La Raza and other "latino" groups siding with the Trayvon Martin lynch mob?

I think it is because Zimmerman's surname just doesn't cut it. If his Mother had been German and his father Peruvian (or whatever) - just so long as he had a hispanic sounding last name - I think he would have gained more support.

It is all about the optics and the sounds, doncha know.

[Threadkiller]

Congratulations Jane!!

[Captain Hate]

So did anyone see that Roseanne Barr posted Zimmerman's parent's address on Twitter.

Back a long long time ago when she was doing standup, she was really funny. As was Sandra Bernhardt. Then they just got weird and twisted and extremely funny.

Except for Ellen; she was never funny.

[henry]

Heh, first question-- will you be as tough as Walker? Can you get congress to take on govt pay and benefits?

[Danube of Thought]

Shall I be the one to break the news to poor bubu?

Unless and until GZ is taken to trial ( as I believe he will be), a final judgment rendred, an appeal taken and an appellate decision published, there is no "Zimmerman precedent."

The fact that I never threatened you personally, and never made any move to harm you, and the absence of any evidence that I even knew who you were would be abundantly sufficient to rebut your defense of reasonable fear. At that point the burden would shift to you to justify that fear, and nothing I have ever said or done would carry that burden. Any jury in this country would laugh you all the way to the death chamber.

Unless Florida allows a stupidity defense.

[Captain Hate]

weird and twisted and extremely unfunny

[Steve]

The gunshot has to be in the center of Martin's chest to kill him, correct? If two people are struggling for a gun, the person who is shot will likely be shot somewhere other than the chest ...

If Martin is swinging away at Zimmerman, and Zimmerman is blocking blows with one arm and getting his gun with the other, how does he shoot the assailant, and how does the bullet strike the center of the chest? You would think Martin is twisting side to side as he punches Zimmerman.

If Martin is right on top of Zimmerman, Zimmerman gets his gun directly onto Martin and fires. There has to be blood on Zimmerman in such a case.

[MarkO]

Online: 782.07 Manslaughter; aggravated manslaughter of an elderly person or disabled adult; aggravated manslaughter of a child; aggravated manslaughter of an officer, a firefighter, an emergency medical technician, or a paramedic.

1) The killing of a human being by the act, procurement, or culpable negligence of another, without lawful justification according to the provisions of chapter 776 and in cases in which such killing shall not be excusable homicide or murder, according to the provisions of this chapter, is manslaughter, a felony of the second degree.

[Jay]

Jay@359--

hey smart guy-- we'll pick a time and a place, you can tell me to my face how stupid I am.

Posted by: NK

Hi moron.

I'm happy to do so.

[Jay]

Ig-- you're a better man than me, I am genetically programed to debate to the end. OK, for that I apologize.

I would still like to meet jay though.

Posted by: NK

So I can see how stupid you are in person?

Happy to do so, idiot.

[Ignatz]

--You are very stupid in your pursuit of this issue.--

I'm surprised at you DoT; you so seldom use superfluous words.

[narciso]

Well I never found Roseanne particularly funny, and I watched Hudson Hawk, which should
be available at Gitmo, for aggressive interrogation, and the same as confirmed about
Bernhardt,

[Jane]

Justifiable homicide.

I feel badly for his parents. I'm not sure this charade they have been forced into helps.

[Jim Rhoads a/k/a vnjagvet]

Jane wins the thread as far as I'm concerned. Most of the pub "pros" are afraid even of accurate pin point attacks on the dems and their shills. We should emulate Jane and give anyone in that business messages that will resonate with non-lefties. IMO, this political battle will ultimately be won not with bludgeons, but with rapiers and scalpels like Jane wielded this afternoon.

[Ignatz]

--Except for Ellen; she was never funny.--

I have to say my wife and I thought the first year or year and half of her sitcom was very funny and offbeat and then she came out of the closet, changed the cast and it very quickly became, hmm what's that word bubu always inspires? Stupid? Yep that's the one.

[Clarice]

I step out for dinner and Jane becomes an even greater media star! Brava, chica!!!

[Captain Hate]

narc, I have a soft spot in my head for Bernardt for the way she used to make Letterperv nervous on his show when he was on NBC. Plus she was good in "King of Comedy"; she played a crazy person so it was good casting.

[Clarice]

In other news--Roseanne better call her lawyer, too:

"Spike Lee has reached an agreement with the Florida couple forced to flee their home after the film director retweeted their home address and they fled to a hotel to avoid problems associated with the shooting of Trayvon Martin, it was announced Thursday."

[jimmyk]

Jane, congratulations! On those Republican "leaders," I'm going to console myself by assuming this is a Massachusetts thing, and not representative of the Republican leadership around the country.

[Ignatz]

I'm not convinced Zimmerman will be indicted.
There does not appear to be evidence sufficient to establish probable cause at this point.
The only actual evidence I've seen from actual police sources that even might help establish it is the girlfriend's story which is insufficient for much of anything.
Given what we know which is no doubt very incomplete his indictment at this point would be almost purely political.

[sbw]

Steve: The gunshot has to be. . .

Are you doing this purely for personal entertainment because you seem to be stringing words together for no other reason?

[Clarice]

One more neuron and steve might have a synapse.

[Clarice]

Someone noted the other day that Fla has a speial statute making it a criminal offense to attack a community watch member doing his job. I don't recall if the penalty is greater than just assaulting any else and interfering with his movement, but I expect it must.

I should think that if Trayvon assaulted Zimmerman--as I assume from the known record he did--that factor also has to weigh on a DA considering whether to proceed to a gj or not.

[Captain Hate]

Oh jimmyk, you're such an optimist.

[Threadkiller]

If I was ever on the stand and compelled to answer questions, I would hope Hannity is the one asking the questions. It would be easier than taking the 5th.

He is an idiot.

[jimmyk]

I'm not convinced Zimmerman will be indicted.

Agreed, based on public info. If he's indicted, it's either political, or the police have something very big that we don't know about. And I would hope the prosecutor and/or GJ realize that a political indictment followed by an acquittal (presumably by a predominantly white and/or Hispanic jury) would be much more inflammatory than if this thing is just put out of its misery preemptively.

[Janet]

I asked pretty provocative questions, I think.

I love that.

[Jane]

Jimmy,

I think they are all indoctrinated to the ordinary. And in their gigs, they never ever leave the ordinary.

I had a really interesting conversation with Cosmo, the media guy, before the panel. I promised him I would not ask about Critical race theory. Of course he had never heard about it. But to his credit, he was curious. I appreciated that. The republican party head was so out of touch it was amazing - which makes sense because he used to be a congressman.

I think I always test people to see how over the edge they are - and I always admit to being over the edge. The interesting thing was the audience was much more on my plane than the speakers, which gave me a lot of hope.

The trick is planting the seed while not alienating the mainstream. I try to do that on my radio show with varying degrees of success. You can be a bit crazy is you have enough credibility to not be scary.

[Rick Ballard]

"and not representative of the Republican leadership around the country"

jimmyk,

I wouldn't place Jane's guests that much above average. Sure, they pull the mean up a tad but I doubt it's really significant.

[Danube of Thought]

Isn't the left's collective behavior in this matter somewhat like that of a lynch mob? If a grand jury is going to hear sworn testimony from witnesses, why the rush to arrest him? Is there a desire to see him jailed without bail? If so, on what grounds? Flight risk? Danger to the community?

Why this sudden aversion to due process? Confinement in jail is not to be used for punishment until after conviction of a crime. Awfully strange.

[Jane]

I think he will be indicted and it will be completely political. And I think there is a good chance he will be convicted for the same reason.

[Clarice]

Heck, DoT, they'd throw Rush in there with him if they could figure out how to-and anyone who disagrees with them.

[Sara (Pal2Pal)]

Yes, he could be Obama's son:

[boatbuilder]

This all makes me sad--and worried.

It is truly sad that a 17-year old kid who may or may not have been a punk or may or may not have been a good kid and who may or may not have jumped a guy with a gun is dead. He was 17.

It is sad that George Zimmerman, who may or may not have been justified in what he did, will nevertheless be hounded and persecuted for the rest of his life.

It is sad that that 13-year old kid who initially said that the guy in the red sweater was on the bottom and screaming for help has been made to change his story by the adults who know better. He will have to live with that.

It is sad that people who I once had respect for, people like Clarence Page and Leonard Pitts, are so blinded by the racial aspect of this that they seem to have literally lost their ability to see things objectively, or even sensibly. They now sound like pure, stupid hacks. What happens to them? The hurt of racism is beyond my comprehension. I don't necessarily blame blacks who feel this way. I simply don't understand it. Sad.

It is sad that ABC News people run with grainy video from the police lockup, proclaiming that it shows no evidence of injury, when plainly it at the very least raises questions about the quality of the video and in several respects appears to clearly show evidence of a head injury. These are professionals who work with video. They know what to look for. The altered recordings, cut-and-pasted videos. They are knowingly lying, misrepresenting what they know. To boost ratings? To foment a race war? To prejudice the public against George Zimmerman? Are they that jaded? Yes, they are. Sad.

And I am mostly sad, and worried, that they will succeed. Whatever the outcome, it will not be justice--it will be what they "demand," the law and the evidence be damned.

And the race hustlers have brought us back to the days of Rodney King and OJ. Sad.

[henry]

Romney took 5 questions, the first on govt benefits and pay levels- govt should not pay better than the private sector; one on "excessive" co profits,- fine defense of profit plus need to increase supply; one on his first 90 days- exec orders for Obamacare waivers plus regulatory rollbacks, repeal Dodd-Frank & Sarbanes Oxley; one on Paul Ryan- he's on the same page and would consider him as a possible VP; and one on why we should vote for him instead of Santorum. He'll be in WI thru Tuesday (along with Santorum, Gingrich, Paul, with Biden and Rahm tag teaming for comic relief).

[Jane]

OK Jane who was the heavy hitter? Inquiring minds want to know...

GMAX,

There is a segment on local FOX that is called "Heavy Hitters" I think because the 2 commentators are over-weight.

[Ignatz]

--If a grand jury is going to hear sworn testimony from witnesses, why the rush to arrest him? Is there a desire to see him jailed without bail? If so, on what grounds? Flight risk? Danger to the community?--

Bubu wants him compelled to testify.
Not sure how that's to be accomplished; waterboarding perhaps?
The rack?

[narciso]

With Menendez, Simpson, Anthony, et al the meme is never to 'jump to conclusions' in this case they are using a trampoline on Barsoom.

[henry]

Ahem-- "excessive" oil company profits.

[MarkO]

In a Southern state a white man who kills a black teenager who looks like the President's imaginary son has no Constitutional rights. You don't know what fear is.

[Jane]

Isn't the left's collective behavior in this matter somewhat like that of a lynch mob?

It is exactly like a lynch mob.

[centralcal]

lol, narc! I think your trampoline metaphor is just perfect.

[Danube of Thought]

"Given what we know which is no doubt very incomplete his indictment at this point would be almost purely political."

Bingo.

"shoot da mf what lied 2 u" went out just before Trayvon changed his handle to NO_LIMIT_NIGGA. Apparently the yute was in something of a transitional phase.

[Chubby]

((I think he will be indicted and it will be completely political.))

Don't the police rely on Neighborhood Watch programs quite a bit, and they work closely together? I would imagine that these events will have some effect on participation in the Watch programs as well.

[daddy]

OT

Just wanted to mention that it was great to hear Rush yesterday evening on Armed Forces Radio in Japan. He was rocking.

Also yesterday was an unexpected 3 hour delay in departing from Shanghai Airport due to what their ATC was calling "traffic Jam." Had never seen anything like it, and listening to the entire episode over the cockpit speakers as American or United or British Air or Lufthansa etc called in for clearance, and then for permission to push back and start engines, and then to taxi, was hilarious. Indignation, anger, demands to know how long the delay and the reason for the delay etc came across often times as comical.

I felt bad for the hundreds of passengers jammed in those planes, having their 10 hour flights to Europe or North America now delayed a further 3 hours, with no idea of when they could take off and probably not allowed to get out of their seats.

It was not bad weather related ,simply "ATC Traffic jam", and all we could guess was maybe the President was over here on Air Force 1 shutting things down. Just guessing, and probably wrong about that.

Anyhow, point I wanted to make was that if the EU guys think they can easily impose their new EU Airplane Carbon Tax upon the Chinese, and the Chinese don't want to comply, the Chinese can very easily retaliate simply be saying: "ATC Traffic Jam. I call you back."

[Clarice]

Someone else has hacked into yet another account of his which indicates he was dealing drugs or doing something else illegal. Here's the only large size photo in the batch:
http://i.imgur.com/OiGIC.jpg

[Barbara]

Just catching up, but I couldn't let this go by without a word of praise.

The idea of letting what passes for justice take its course and only then making judgments is so passé. So yesterday. So whatever.

Everyone seems sucked into the progressive disease "I need what I want now." You know, the disease whose primary symptom is meaningless verbal diarrhea.

sbw @2:18 PM

Very nicely said.

[Threadkiller]

Clarice, that helps my parody Elton John's Levon.

I had "Trevon..Trevon liked his hoodie..." and "that's the day that the New York Times said God is dead and the war's begun..."(didn't need much work).

I can now add:

"Trayvon sold cocaine balloons in town"

[pagar]

"(I think he will be indicted and it will be completely political"

http://weaselzippers.us/2012/03/29/pelosi-says-other-options-should-be-considered-if-justice-system-probe-of-doesnt-work/

Amazing!

[fdcol63]

" ... Everyone seems sucked into the progressive disease "I need what I want now ... "

IMO, the progressive disease is more like "You owe me what I want now, and I don't care what it costs."

[Threadkiller]

Pagar, when Spike Lee finally gets the right address to Obama, I assume the "other option" will be a drone strike.

[narciso]

Well as Pelosi, should recall the SLA specialized in these sorts of options,

[Rick Ballard]

Blacks represent over 30% of the 32% of Americans still willing to wear the Democrat label of shame. They are, in the aggregate, far worse off today than they were when the President who had over inflated their hopes in order to draw them to the polls took office. The President's adoption of St. Trayvon of the Skittles has to be viewed as a very desperate and probably wholly futile move to shore up failing enthusiasm among what was the most solid element of his fast disappearing base.

This is just pathetic floundering and flailing as the stern begins its slow ascent towards the sky.

[fdcol63]

We all knew this campaign season was gonna get ugly.

I'm afraid we ain't seen nothing yet.

[pagar]

TK, they're going to need more drones.

Cong "Hoodie" Rush just lost some more of his supporters. Hopefully, no one in Fl will get hurt in the rush to get to Chicago and find out what is going on.

http://marathonpundit.blogspot.com/2012/03/six-shot-one-dead-in-bobby-hoodie-rushs.html

[Captain Hate]

Pagar, when Spike Lee finally gets the right address to Obama, I assume the "other option" will be a drone strike.

Shelton, in addition to making crummy movies (even the mediocre ones have horribly contrived endings), is as dumb as a plank so I doubt that he'll ever get the correct address.

[fdcol63]

Wow ..... this is scary:

http://conservativebyte.com/2012/03/government-terrorizing-kids-during-drills/