Powered by TypePad

« Trayvon Martin - We Hear From Zimmerman's Father | Main | Last Map Of The Retreat At Twin Lakes »

March 29, 2012

Comments

Pofarmer

Stephanie

Shep is a moron.

Rob Crawford

shouldn't a grand jury get the final say not the opinion of the shooter or the Chief?

Say as to what? No one found any evidence of a crime. The evidence supports the claim of self defense, which is a legal act.

MarkO

John Kerry is a liar.

Sue

Looks like Zimmerman is going to have to be white. The Hispanic race hustlers are siding with the black race hustlers and are calling Zimmerman a murderer. NHE. Not Hispanic Enough.

Pofarmer


"
Sigh...I've been scammed by a kindygardner...

"having the body for 3 days" ......you give yourself away by spewing this crap.

please.take.your.ball.and.leave.
"

It's easier to argue if you don't worry about facts and stuff.

jimmyk

If the "unarmed" man had never thrown a punch, then, yes, the putative unarmed status could be used to cast doubt on whether the shooter was reasonably in fear of serious harm or death.

I would say that merely throwing a punch doesn't do it, but pinning the guy on the ground and punching him or knocking his head on the pavement does. "Stand your ground" or not, what makes self-defense credible in this case is the fact that he was being beaten while unable to extricate himself. No need for him to wait and see if more serious harm or death is intended.

Threadkiller

I was going to say that, DoT. I swear it.

Sue

Deb,

The father, in quotes:

"...I'm living down here. He was sitting on the porch and this man killed him."

Trayvon is now sitting on his porch when Zimmerman killed him.


Jay

Stephanie-- the problem Chief Lee and the prosecutor have is that they released GZ on his say so, very limited physical evidence and no GJ review.

How does one get to this level of stupid?

Enlightened

Super - Now Rosanne Barr decides to twitter a "Zimmerman" address....and is saying she is going to the address....

Rob Crawford

Super - Now Rosanne Barr decides to twitter a "Zimmerman" address....and is saying she is going to the address....

Meh. Florida has some experts on handling large mammals.

DebinNC

Yeah, Mr. Martin and his gf were misinformed, but John the eyewitness seems very clear and credible about what he saw.

Threadkiller

Big Z got the drop on Martin.

Now they take the "one drop" from Big Z.

Janet

. The Hispanic race hustlers are siding with the black race hustlers and are calling Zimmerman a murderer. NHE. Not Hispanic Enough.

Unbelievable. I just pray this will be a light bulb moment for some Americans....that they will see the hatred & insanity of the left.

Jim Rhoads a/k/a vnjagvet

Can anyone explain how the actions against Zimmerman being ginned up by the left side of the political spectrum today do not resemble the lynch mob's actions depicted so memorably in the iconic liberal flick The Oxbow Incident?

And don't tell me it's because Dana Andrews was innocent and George Zimmerman is guilty.

Enlightened

"...I'm living down here. He was sitting on the porch and this man killed him."

Brandy Green - a family friend - was the person that spoke this...honestly (and I know I will get clobbered (thanks Sarah P for todays buzzword) for saying this - but I think when Ms. Green said this, she was speaking in the manner some black people do shortening sentences to a few words etc

When she said it (to me at least) I think she meant she had just "seen him on the porch" and now "the man kill him"...I don't think she meant he was killed on the porch...


AltaMike

"carrying nothing but a bag of Skittles, some money and a can of iced tea when he was shot."

I'm curious as to why there is no mention of him carrying a cell phone? Wasn't his GF talking to him around the time of the shooting?

Sue

Enlightened,

The article used the quote for the father. I didn't actually watch the video.

Threadkiller

Pravda missed the Open Mic directive. They are not waiting until after the election.

http://english.pravda.ru/opinion/columnists/29-03-2012/120917-barack_obama_foreign_student-0/

Rob Crawford

Can anyone explain how the actions against Zimmerman being ginned up by the left side of the political spectrum today do not resemble the lynch mob's actions depicted so memorably in the iconic liberal flick The Oxbow Incident?

Well, um, because...

IT JUST DOESN'T, OKAY?! HATER!!!

Jim,MtnViewCA,USA

Sen Kerry: "“I can tell you that we had one of the most rigorous and transparent legislative processes that I have witnessed in almost 3 decades here in the Congress."

Yeah, right.
And have any of them actually read it yet?

Jane

We worked with some of the brightest, most thoughtful and experienced constitutional lawyers in order to make sure that the law was constitutional.

I'd bet his boat that he didn't write or read one word of the bill and wouldn't recognize the constitution if he fell over it.

WH has ordered the hiring of 1400 IRS agents (now)to enforce Obamacare. I guess he is going ahead with it regardless of what the court says.

When is the House going to wise up and stop giving him the money.

Pofarmer

"I'm curious as to why there is no mention of him carrying a cell phone? Wasn't his GF talking to him around the time of the shooting? "

Telepathy

St. Travon.

Sue

TK,

You got me. You made me look. And now I'm pissed that I did. Regurgitating what has been said, over and over, doesn't make it true. ::grin::

NK

RobC-- appreciate you being more civil. The States' 'reasonable' use of lethal force common law and statutory guidelines are pretty consistent with idiosyncratic exceptions -- such as good samaritan third party statutes. I'll politely correct you; I never said being attacked by fists as opposed to a weapon precludes lethal force self -defense-- it depends on the circumstances and the shooter's reasonable fear of serious injury or death. hence the 40yo bankers wife who swore at Mike Tyson and then was being beaten by Tyson's fists can use lethal force in self-defense, even though she 'initiated' by swearing at Tyson. But if you're claiming lethal force in self-defense against an attacker using their fists rather than a weapon-- prosecutors want a real good explanation of why you were in fear of serious injury. Mike Tyson punching you, or a strong 17yo banging your head on the pavement, prosecutors and GJ will be persuaded that was reasonable under the circumstances -- what's the evidence? eyewitnesses and hospital treatment help persuade prosecutors and grand jurors of reasonable fear of serious injury.

Pofarmer

Has it been confirmed that Martin actually had the tea and skittles?

Enlightened

Anyway that video of Tracy Martin and Brandy Green on the morning after the shooting puts to bed forever the lie that Trayvon was unidentified in the morgue for 3 days. And it is so sad to see Mr. Martin on that video - his pain was palpable.

And Yes - John the witness seems very credible in that video and sadly is most likely in fear of his life now as well.

Breibart timeline of the race baiters jumping in puts the onus squarely on Sharpton and I have to agree. He is the asshole that has driven this into frenzy of hatred and even got his man the Prez to jump in.

Pofarmer

It's at night, in the rain, and there are no snacks in the house?

Pofarmer

It's at night, in the rain, and there are no snacks in the house?

Pofarmer

It's at night, in the rain, and there are no snacks in the house?

Steve

Once Zimmerman had the gun pointed at Martin, why did he have to shoot him? No matter the beating, the only way a shot can be justified is if they are both struggling for the gun or Martin rushes Zimmerman in an attempt to get the gun.

Threadkiller

Has it been confirmed he had a hoodie?

Rex

NK, it's clear that you are heavily influenced by how police and courts and the law works in New York City. I'm here ot tell you that it doesn't work that way in much of the rest of the country.

In much of the rest of the country, the police and/or DA have the balls to make their own determination on whether to charge or not. In NYC, the DA usually plays it safe and leaves it up to the grand jury to decide. Admittedly, in much of the rest of the country, potential hot potato cases are also given to the grand jury, but this didn't seem to be a hot potato case until the media built this into a hot potato.

I should also note that NYC, having so many people, typically has a standing grand jury which can meet almost instantaneously. In much of the rest of the country, grand jurys are empaneled only when there is need for one, which process typically takes a month.

Finally, the issues of self-defense and use of lethal force vary by jurisdiction. RobC is using the laws of Ohio; I presume that you are using the laws of NY. They're different. And Florida's is different from either of those. A lot of the cross-arguments occur here simply because it's not clear who is relying on which state's law.

Clarice

I never heard of the group presente.rg, the "online" group that says Zimmerman isn't really Hispanic so they're good to go on the lynching. Did anyone? Is this yet another Soros front?

Threadkiller

Sorry Sue. Friends?

:-)

Enlightened

Sue - The article used the quote for the father. I didn't actually watch the video

I know - and it is one of the reasons that lie that TM was killed on the porch was floating out there - egad journalists these days! And what editor let that one get through?

NK

Jay@359--

hey smart guy-- we'll pick a time and a place, you can tell me to my face how stupid I am.

Pofarmer

Wow, Steve's back. Now we're at double stupid on this issue.

Threadkiller

Why did he even put bullets in the gun?

Oh the humanity!!

Sue

TK,

Absolutely.

NK

Rex- I admitted I am influenced by the DA's in and around NYC, absolutely. The DA's learned 30 years ago how to defend against Sharpton and the rest of the racebaiters' BS. If they don't, other jurisdiction should use those procedures in 'hot potato' cases. I hate to see the race hustlers get an oportunity because of good faith -- but slow or sloppy-- police work.

Threadkiller

I did not see where NK's end of the dialog envoked name calling. Maybe he did and I missed it, but I sure don't think it is necessary.

NK

MarkO-- yes John Kerry is a liar, and Breyer is that dumb. read his 'living constitution' book.

Enlightened

"I'm curious as to why there is no mention of him carrying a cell phone? Wasn't his GF talking to him around the time of the shooting?"

I could be mistaken but somewhere I read that when TM was talking on the phone to his GF, he had a earbud on, and his phone was in his pocket.

When he died, he was found on his stomach and most likely the phone was still in his pocket. It may have been found by the ME once he was at the morgue?

The cell phone will only confirm if he was talking to his GF, the time he was talking to her in relation to Z 911 call and if GF did try and call back a couple times after 7:16 pm....

I don't see any great significance of the phone other than that. Should the cops have found it on him? Not sure if that is their responsibility to check pockets of the deceased or if they leave eveything to the ME so as not to destroy any evidence.


Clarice

Breyer's incoherent statements on Commerce Clause captured in Reason cartoon
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=xdXiOKTrEK8

Melinda Romanoff

OK, my turn.

Colonel Mustard, in the Living Room, with the wrench.

pagar

From Rocco's 01:57.
"Crime is rampant because the law-abiding, each of us, condone it, excuse it, permit it, submit to it. We permit and encourage it because we do not fight back, immediately, then and there, where it happens."

"The defect is there, in our character. We are a nation of cowards and shirkers. "

Looks to me like we might be seeing a lot of outrage because a alleged Democrat may have broken from the beliefs of the leftists.

Steve

Will the investigators be able to determine how close the gun was to Martin when he was shot? If the gun is within a foot or so of Martin, the shooting can be justified. If further away, I do not think so. How do you justify shooting an unarmed person who is not within touching distance?

Janet

presente.org - on their about page -

“ Today we must fight for a better world, without poverty, without racism, with peace. ” – Rigoberta Menchú, Nobel Peace Prize Winner

Sorta shows they are comfortable with frauds.

Rob Crawford

hence the 40yo bankers wife who swore at Mike Tyson and then was being beaten by Tyson's fists can use lethal force in self-defense, even though she 'initiated' by swearing at Tyson

And I'm telling you that by initiating it, she voided her claim to self defense. Again, the Ohio Attorney General's office: "First, the defendant must prove that he was not at fault for creating the situation. The defendant cannot be the first aggressor or initiator." And, yes, that includes making statements. You cannot have started the situation or escalated it and then claim self defense.

Sure, a jury might acquit her, but she's still going to face charges.

But if you're claiming lethal force in self-defense against an attacker using their fists rather than a weapon-- prosecutors want a real good explanation of why you were in fear of serious injury.

I never claimed otherwise.

What you're missing is that you always have to explain why you were in fear of serious injury or death, regardless of whether the attacker is "unarmed" or not. The "unarmed" is unimportant; the fear of serious harm or death is what's important.

You keep demanding that someone acting in self defense has extra hoops to jump through if they were attacked by fists -- it's just not true. They have to meet the same standards. The laws are the same. You keep acting like "unarmed" has some sort of legal or moral weight -- it flat-out doesn't.

BTW -- you can use lethal force in the defense of another person if and only if you are certain that person had the right to use lethal force in their own defense. If they initiated or escalated the encounter (and, yes, slurs and insults count as initiating), then you are in the wrong, regardless of any perceived imbalance between the two parties.

Oh, and ignorance of who started it is no defense.

Enlightened

"The phone was in his pocket and the earphone in his ear, Crump said"

Well that's where I heard that one...TN's attorney.

NK

Enlightened-- the cell phone makes the cops look bad and their investigation incomplete. That became one of the talking points that the race hustlers and media used to make this case a 'story'.

Enlightened

**TM's*** attorney

Rob Crawford

I don't see any great significance of the phone other than that.

If he were truly in fear for his safety, he could have called 911...

Threadkiller

Three foot long arms have a "touching distance" of one foot.

NK

RobC-- slurs/insults do not vitiate self-defense in NY State.

Clarice

Yes, Robb. And he wasn't so in fear that he couldn't call his gf and alk about what was happening instead of 911.

Rob Crawford

the cell phone makes the cops look bad and their investigation incomplete.

The cell phone had no bearing on the case.

DebinNC

How do you justify shooting an unarmed person who is not within touching distance?

Unless the sight of the gun made Trayvon jump to his feet, he was within touching distance of Zimmerman. I'd think forensics should show if Zimmerman shot Trayvon sitting above him and then shoved his body off to get to his feet, or if Trayvon was standing away when shot.

Melinda Romanoff

There's some story out there that the DoJ is about to indict Nikki Haley for tax fraud.

Anybody else seeing this stuff, other than what's on Memeorandom?

Janet

Roberto Lovato - co-founder of Presente.org

Tarso Luís Ramos: Tell me about your organization, Presente.org.
Roberto Lovato: Presente.org, which I co-founded in May 2009, is the preeminent online Latino advocacy organization. It’s kind of like a MoveOn.org for Latinos: its goal is to build Latino power through online and offline organizing.

Clarice

As I suspected it's a re-elect Obama front group.

Sue

Oh my stars, where is FedSec? Reporter on Hannity is claiming she spoke to one of George Zimmerman's neighbors and she was shown a picture and asked if it was George Zimmerman. It was a bloody picture of him.

Janet

from my 4:38 link -

"We got support from Latino groups like the Willie Velasquez Institute, the National Hispanic Media Coalition, and the Latino Policy Institute, and we got solidarity from non-Latino groups like AlterNet, Credo Mobile, MoveOn, Democrats.com, and Color of Change.

Also important were our friends in the media, especially inside CNN. Lou Dobbs made a lot of enemies. "

bold mine.

Ignatz

I've disagreed with NK occasionally, including on this thread, but I've never found him either stupid or any of the other less than charitable things that have been said about him today.
Not cool.

Rob Crawford

RobC-- slurs/insults do not vitiate self-defense in NY State.

Given your record, I won't take your word for that. And... good reason not to:

Sec. 35.15 Justification; use of physical force in defense of a person.
1. A person may, subject to the provisions of subdivision two, use physical force upon another person when and to the extent he reasonably believes such to be necessary to defend himself or a third person from what he reasonably believes to be the use or imminent use of unlawful physical force by such other person, unless:
(a) The latter`s conduct was provoked by the actor himself with intent to cause physical injury to another person;

Good luck proving that you didn't intend to start a fight when you started slinging slurs around.

(Source LUN)

Rob Crawford

I've disagreed with NK occasionally, including on this thread, but I've never found him either stupid or any of the other less than charitable things that have been said about him today.

Has NK repeatedly, and apparently purposefully, misstated someone's position before?

Jack is Back!

We are fortunte here in this part of Florida to have comic relief for all these little national stories we have to endure like Casey Anthony and Martin/Zimmerman. Her name is Corrine Brown and she is not a standup comedian but a Congresswoman with the most gerrymandered district in America. You have to be a Picasso to design her district in order to keep the average IQ of its voters around 70 to 72.

By the way, the young white female she couldn't name is Michele Parker, the People's Court participant who went missing in November 2011.

jimmyk

Mel,
Strangely, if you google Nikki Haley, there's a Daily Beast item, but if you click on it, it's disappeared. Almost as if they reported it and then decided to retract it.

Jack is Back!

Sorry but the link doesn't seem to work.

Try this and have a laugh.

boatbuilder

The cops don't mention a cell phone and the GF and the lawyer cite it as evidence of bad faith and/or incompetence on the part of the cops. If there is no cellphone it is certainly indicative of pure BS on the part of Crump and/or his witness, the girlfriend. If there is a cell phone it makes the cops looks like they may not have followed up on available evidence, since the gf claims that she was talking to the victim during the moments preceding the incident and they never talked to her (although that assumes that they haven't actually done that). If the cops didn't follow up on the cellphone it calls much of the rest of the investigation into question. It would be instructive to know this.

Janet

Looks like Presente.org doesn't like Rubio either.

"MIAMI, Fla. – Outside the Hispanic Leadership Network’s 2012 Conference, Latino advocacy organization Presente Action launched the campaign “NO SOMOS RUBIOS,” (We are not Marco Rubios!) with a protest staged by Florida DREAM Act students and others..."

Melinda Romanoff

JiB-

My Reps are "better" than your Reps.

Jimmyk-

WaPo's still got it. This is classic Axelrod.

narciso

There seems to be a patttern to whom they target, Sarah, Nikki, and now in the LUN

narciso

Sorry, let me try again;

Threadkiller

I do not know if it was on purpose, Rob, but back in my birther youth, NK and I had a go at it. We both crossed up each others statements. Some ugly things were said.

I would hate to see a repeat.

Sue

The reporter that Hannity just had on was first on the scene and got interviews with people that other news organizations couldn't get, whether because they were afraid or were told by cops not to, she doesn't know. One thing she said that was interesting to her was how far away some of the "witnesses" were to where the incident occurred. She was surprised they could hear screaming.

Ignatz

--unless:
(a) The latter`s conduct was provoked by the actor himself with intent to cause physical injury to another person;--

Maybe I'm misunderstanding that but does calling someone a pejorative qualify as intent to cause physical injury.
Seems kind of unlikely, no?

Jane

There's some story out there that the DoJ is about to indict Nikki Haley for tax fraud.

I saw it about 2 minutes ago. Maybe Daily Caller but I really don't know.

Jack is Back!

narciso,

Too damn hot to be a conservative. Need to muss her up a little and make her cry. She is perfect for the obligatory mud job. Since she in Wisconsin, I wonder who'll get the job? SEIU or the Teacher's Union?

Jack is Back!

One thing she said that was interesting to her was how far away some of the "witnesses" were to where the incident occurred. She was surprised they could hear screaming.

Isn't Shep on during the confrontation time frame? Even people in Sanford don't watch him. So lots of silence. Sound travels.

Janet

Roberto Lovato - from Wiki

the other founder is "Favianna Rodriguez, co-founder of Presente.org"

Sue

If you google Nikki Hayley you get this:

According to an anonymously-sourced report, South Carolina Governor and Mitt Romney supporter Nikki Haley has been under investigation for tax fraud and the ...

But when you click on the link to Daily Beast, it goes to an error page. They've pulled their story.

boris

On this issue NK has been mischaracterizing other's comments to a degree significantly less "polite" than "shut up" IMO.

narciso

Reallu it's open season on Sikh's now, Alabama is close enough to S. Carolina right

Clarice

JiB that link from CNN is hilarious!

Ignatz

--Has NK repeatedly, and apparently purposefully, misstated someone's position before?--

I see where he was accused of doing it by two or three different people but having reread a good portion of the thread can't see where he actually did.
I can see where he was called a liar, ignorant, stupid and told to shut up and that he didn't respond in kind and see his only response to have been to Jay's gratuitous insult at 4:20.

narciso

Not quite down the memory hole,


http://dailycaller.com/2012/03/29/report-doj-may-indict-sc-gov-nikki-haley-for-tax-fraud/

Ignatz

--On this issue NK has been mischaracterizing other's comments to a degree significantly less "polite" than "shut up" IMO.--

Citation to this mischaracterization please. Didn't see it myself.

NK

RobC-- below is the relevant text of NY State Penal Code 35.15 the self defense provison. As to "initial aggressor" using a slur or insult and nothing further, and walking away, that does not constititue physical aggression that vitiates reasonable force self-defense. If you slur and walk on by, and the other party physically attacks you, self-defense applies. if you use a slur and and shove the other party, and they punch you, self-defense doesn't apply and everybody's liable for a crime. Initial agressor means you physically started the fight, not that you had bad manners-- but it all depends on the facts.

Sec. 35.15 Justification; use of physical force in defense of a person.
1. A person may, subject to the provisions of subdivision two, use physical force upon another person when and to the extent he reasonably believes such to be necessary to defend himself or a third person from what he reasonably believes to be the use or imminent use of unlawful physical force by such other person, unless:
(a) The latter`s conduct was provoked by the actor himself with intent to cause physical injury to another person; or
(b) The actor was the initial aggressor; except that in such case his use of physical force is nevertheless justifiable if he has withdrawn from the encounter and effectively communicated such withdrawal to such other person but the latter persists in continuing the incident by the use or threatened imminent use of unlawful physical force;

Threadkiller

Attacks on Haley and Rubio?!?

Oh the lengths the left will go to in preventing a dual citizen from occupying the White House.

narciso

Then again, nothing surprises me on this score, except I don't see a byline by Will Folks

Clarice

Is Twitter complicit in threatening the life of Zimmerman by allowing this thread to remain online?


https://twitter.com/#!/KillZimmerman

boris

"... can't see where he actually did ..."

You seem like a very tolerant person iggy.

NK

Ig-- thanks for the kind words. I see where TK remembered our tiff years ago-- we both can be --uh- persistent. I still would like to meet Jay though-- I'll cop to that.

NK

Clarice-- very good point. Not that Holder would do anything about this outrage, but Twitter is going to find itself in very unhappy litigation when some nut acts on some suggestion Twitted on their service.

Ignatz

--You seem like a very tolerant person iggy.--

I would have preferred the citation but compliments are always accepted with gratitude, boris. :)

Ignatz

--but Twitter is going to find itself in very unhappy litigation when some nut acts on some suggestion Twitted on their service--

Wasn't there a case a few years back absolving internet providers of culpability for content carried on their networks? Seems twitter should qualify too.

narciso

I'm a little surprised he would put forward a story like this, with so little sourcing,

http://newsbusters.org/people/nicholas-ballasy

boris

"first off take it up with RobC he says fists always justify lETHAL self-defense"

Nothing Rob C has written would lead any reasonable person to that conclusion.

The comments to this entry are closed.

Wilson/Plame