The Perils Of Placating Progressive Paranoia

Judd Legum of Think Progress delivers the "five of the most important" questions of the Trayvon Martin investigation.  Question 1 brings a smile:

1. What was the purported “conflict” that required the initial prosecutor to step down? On March 22 — after several weeks on the job — state attorney Norm Wolfinger stepped down from his role as prosecutor in the Trayvon Martin case. Wolfinger relinquished his post after meeting with Florida Gov. Rick Scott and Attorney General Pam Bondi. He said it was necessary for him to step aside to preserve “the integrity of this investigation,” adding he wanted to avoid “the appearance of a conflict of interest.” He did not explain why his continued involvement would damage the integrity of the case or explain the potential conflict he was seeking to avoid. Did anyone at the prosecutor’s office know Zimmerman or his family? [Orlando Sentinel]

Interesting.  The family had demanded a new investigation, they got one, and it is Very Suspicious!  Had they not gotten a new investigation, well, that would be Very Suspicious too.  The state can't win for playing.

The family and their attorneys had been screaming that the Sanford PD had botched the investigation, that a new look was needed, and that the Feds ought to step in.  For flavor, here is a NY Times headline and an Orlando Sentinel clip.  The Times, March 16:

Justice Department Investigation Is Sought in Florida Teenager’s Shooting Death

The Sentinel, March 17 (same story, the 911 calls, but the next day's dateline)

Both lawyers characterized what they heard as "murder" and said Zimmerman should be arrested immediately and federal authorities should take over the case.

...

At a press conference Friday morning, Trayvon's parents said that in the three weeks since he was killed, their trust in the Sanford Police Department has disappeared.

Tracy Martin, father of the slain teen, told reporters he felt "betrayed" by law enforcement investigating his son's death because they have not arrested the shooter.

"It's a shame that he's [Trayvon] not getting any justice. We're not, as a family, getting any closure," the elder Martin said. "I feel betrayed by the Sanford Police Department and there's no way that I can still trust them in investigating this crime."

So the state appoints a new prosecutor with no ties to the Sanford PD or the city of Sanford, and Suspicions Are Raised.  Let's clip a bit more from the linked story announcing the new prosecutor, since Mr. Legum's excerpter seems to have broken:

Florida Gov. Rick Scott and Attorney General Pam Bondi have appointed a special prosecutor to investigate the shooting death of Trayvon Martin, removing the state attorney who had been considering the case.

Scott and Bondi appointed State Attorney Angela B. Corey, whose office handles cases in Duval, Clay and Nassau counties.

Also on Thursday, Scott created a task force headed by Lt. Gov. Jennifer Carroll to review Florida's 2005 "Stand Your Ground" law, which allows people to use deadly force if they think their lives or others' are in imminent danger or they face "great bodily harm."

Brevard-Seminole State Attorney Norm Wolfinger relinquished the investigation after a talk with Scott and Bondi, according to a statement from the governor's office. Wolfinger signed a letter requesting the special prosecutor, saying he was acting "with the intent of toning down the rhetoric and preserving the integrity of this investigation."

...

"In the interest of the public safety of the citizens of Seminole County and to avoid even the appearance of a conflict of interest, I would respectfully request the executive assignment of another state attorney for the investigation and any prosecution arising from the circumstances surrounding the death of Trayvon B. Martin," Wolfinger wrote.

...Scott said he is creating the task force on the gun law because of the public outcry over the case.

Benjamin Jealous, president and chief executive of the national NAACP, and Turner Clayton, president of the Seminole County NAACP, applauded the move but said they would not rest until Zimmerman is arrested and convicted.

As to what that conflict of interest might have been, I will offer the obvious guess in a moment.  But the notion that there is some mysterous conflict of interest that mysteriously prompted the sudden withdrawal of the prosecutor, and that this is the most important question swirling about the case, is absurd.  The public was howling and the prosecutor was scalped.

Now, the obvious conflict: the endgame for Ben Crump, the Martin family attorney, is justice for the family; "justice" with Mr. Crump typically includes a big payday from a civil wrongful death suit.  Since a big settlement requires a deep-pocketed defendant, the City of Sanford is a likely place to look.

Thus, as with every other city in America, there is a tension between the goal of investigating crimes and the goal of sparing the taxpayers from huge bills attributable to police misbehavior.  The solution in this country has not been to have the Feds investigate everything but it may be that in this case the City of Sanford really does have a bit of a stake in clearing their police department. 

OK, tying the City of Sanford to the death won't be easy, but... normally gun permits are granted at the local level - how did Sanford handle that? [Answer - by not doing it; Rob Crawford tells us that the FL Dept of Ag And Conumer Services handles gun permits; sue them]  I would start there.  Criticizing them for a slow respnse to the 911 calls looks hopeless, but who knows - even a minute could have saved a life, so evidence that a responding officer settled his tab at the doughnut shop before rolling could be critical.

Could there be other conflicts?  George Zimmerman's dad was a retired magistrate somewhere, and may have friends in the Florida justice system.  Yeah, yeah.  I would start with looking at the money.

And lest they have not realized it already - I am sure that most of the folks screaming for an immediate arrest of George Zimmerman on no evidence are well intentioned (despite a hazy grasp of US law, whch likes to see probable cause).  However, Ben Crump very much needs an arrest and, even better, a criminal trial,to advance his eventual civil suit.

The OJ Simpson civil jury famously overcame his criminal acquital and (due to a different jury and a lower burden of proof) found him civily liable for the death of Nicole Simpson and Ron Goldman.  Ben Crump can overcome an eventual acquital, but arguing wrongful death when no one has been arrested probably exceeds even his skills.  IANAL, so I welcome guidance from the ambulance chasers distingished jurists out there.

HEY, SHOULDN'T 'MR. WONDERFUL' KEEP GOING?  Not a bad question...

OK, I can quit anytime, but (2) is a layup:

2. Why did the prosecutor ignore the recommendations of the lead homicide investigator? ABC News reported that Chris Serino, the lead homicide investigator on the Trayvon Martin case, recommended that Zimmerman be charged with manslaughter on the night of the shooting. Serino filed an affidavit that night stating “he was unconvinced Zimmerman’s version of events.” As the lead homicide investigator, Serino was: 1. In the best position to evaluate Zimmerman’s credibility, and 2. Intimately familiar with Florida law. Why was he ignored?

Really?  First, as noted the person who ignored the recommendation is out and we don't know what will happen next.

Secondly, from my extensive review of Law and Order it is not unusual for investigators to have a gut feel that the suspect is lying and for prosecutors to insist that unless the invvestigators entrails can testify, actual charges and an actual trial require actual evidence.  C'mon, that scene is staged 12 times a day every day on cable.  Is "real life" really that different?  Let's cut back to Ta Nehisi-Coates and his advice from a former homicide prosecutor from Florida:

1.) I don't believe Mr. Zimmerman's story (presuming that what is in the report is truly what he told the police), but more importantly, 

2.) What prosecutors believe is not nearly as important as what they can prove. I can not stress this enough, and my mind is about to explode with all of nonsense being written about what the government can and cannot do. It is up to the government, not anyone else, to prove that Zimmerman is lying.

Third, who knows how the wind was blowing on this case, or an other?  It may be that the lead investigator routinely urges prosecution figuring (a) it won't be his sorry ass in the courtroom with no case, and (b) no one can ever call him 'weak on crime' later, since he wants to try everyone on someone else's dime. 

Or maybe the lead investigator could see pretty quickly that the fecal matter and the whirling fan were colliding on this case, so he went into CYA mode and recommended prosecution based on evidence he couldn't turn up.

Frankly, if I were the prosecutor I would be deeply irked by this back-stabbing and would strongly urge the guy to do his job and develop the case or STFU.  But whatever.  As to the idea that this is an important Unsolved Mystery, well, send better questions.

QUITTING SOON BUT... (3) is not that better question:

3. Why did then-Police Chief Bill Lee make public statements directly contradicting the official recommendations of the police department? On the day the Sanford Police concluded their investigation and handed over the case to the prosecutor, then-Police Chief Bill Lee stated publicly that there was no “probable cause” to arrest or charge Zimmerman. (Lee has subsequently “temporarily” stepped down from his post.) But the Miami Herald reports that on the same day the Sanford Police formally requested that the prosecutor charge Zimmerman, something known as a “capias” request. [ThinkProgress]

We have cites of the chief's thinking in a post below; this is from the Times, March 16:

“The evidence doesn’t establish so far that Mr. Zimmerman did not act in self-defense,” Chief Bill Lee of the Sanford police said this week, responding to why Mr. Zimmerman had not been arrested. He said he would welcome a federal investigation. “We don’t have anything to dispute his claim of self-defense at this point.”

Oh, let's proudly show our commitment to recycling!  Here is one of the Sanford investigators, on the record and hinting at dissension back on March 17 in the Orlando Sentinel:

Investigator Chris Serino of Sanford police said Friday the agency has worked closely with prosecutors, and have not arrested Zimmerman because prosecutors have consistently told them they do not have enough evidence to win a manslaughter conviction.

That's because Zimmerman says he was defending himself, something he's allowed to do under Florida law.

On my scorecard I just won 3 and 2, but never having won at match play before, I might be wrong.

NEWTON MAY HAVE BEEN RIGHT ABOUT MOMENTUM:

4. Who leaked Trayvon Martin’s school records? As public outrage increased, Zimmerman’s sympathizers launched a smear campaign against Trayvon Martin. This included details of several occasions where Martin was suspended for minor infractions (defacing a locker, possessing an empty “marijuana baggie.”) None of the information seemed to have any particular relevance to the night Trayvon Martin was shot to death. Was this a ham-handed attempt by the police or the prosecutor to defend their lack of action against Zimmerman?

As to relevance, Zimerman's critics insist he engaged in racial profiling. On the 911 call, he says Martin looked like he was on drugs; a school suspension for drug use might time in to that (a tox screen might be helpful, although I am far from an expert on how accurately those tests determine timing of drug use) and suggest that Zimmerman actually did see someone staggering down the street in a drug-induced haze.

But set that aside - yes, it was a ham-handed attempt to bolster the "Save George (and our jobs)" faction.  No kidding.  So what?  People who thought that the month long campaign to tar Zimmerman and the Sanford PD as racist would go unanswered were probably not thinking.

And why not:

5. Why was Trayvon Martin’s body tagged as a John Doe? The Washington Post’s Jonathan Capehart notes a police report “that was completed at 3:07 a.m. on Feb. 27 lists Trayvon’s full name, city of birth, address and phone number.” But yet, Trayvon’s body was reportedly “tagged as a John Doe” and his father wasn’t informed of his death until after he filed a missing person report later on the 27th. Why weren’t Trayvon Martin’s parents contacted immediately after the police confirmed his identity? [Washington Post]

Beats me.  Any guess would be in the "Wild Ass" area.  For example, the cell phone baffles me and everything I have read suggest the police fell down in not locating the girlfriend sooner.  Possible explanations for why it was not used to immediately track down his parents - it was password protected, the battery died, it was set to buzzer and no one heard it ring, space aliens ate it - did I mention that I don't know but would like to?

However, as to the clear fact that Trayvon Martin is IDed in the police report yet (per the Sanford FAQ) the family did not make the ID until "late" the following morning, well, it's puzzling.  Maybe the name was added to the report later - I have no idea if that might be acceptable procedure.

But from a different perspective, what difference does it make in terms of evaluating the case against Zimmerman?  Is the argument that the police might have taken a different approach in the first few hours if they had known that Trayvon Martin belonged in the neighborhood?  What different evidence might that have generated?

The timing of the ID in the report is a puzzle, but if I could rub a magic lantern and get answers to five questions, that would not make the list.

So what would make the list?  Hmm.  I prefer questions that might have a useful answer.  As an example of a bad uestion, was the City of Sanford worried about possible liabilty in a wrongful death suit?  On one level, of course they were.  But no one will ever admit it and there will never be a smoking gun memo ordering the investigators or DA into the tank to save the city's taxpayers, so I wouldn't waste a question on it.

Two obvious ones - what happened with the cell phone that they (apparently) never got ahold of Trayvon Martin's girlfriend?  Letting Ben Crump unveil her after the 911 tapes had been made public was not helpful to the investigation, since the defense will allege that her memory may have been supplemented or complemented by the information from those tapes. She is not as credible a witness as she could have been if the police had gotten a statement from her early on (assuming they didn't).

Second, was George Zimmerman tested for drugs and alcohol? That's an easy yes or no and a reporter could expect an answer.  It would be nice to get the result, too, but I'll settle for knowing the test was done.

I won't waste a question asking whether the police documented his wounds; I assume that if the DA had a report which read that Zimmerman claimed self-defense but had no wounds, this case (and the leaks) would play out differently.  People worried about some conspiracy in which the police, the prosecutor and the defense all know Zimmerman can't prove he had wounds will want to use a question on this.  Same thing with the forensics - if Martin was shot in the back, for example, it would take a notable cover-up for us to be where we are.

Third question - where was the body found (the police report seems clear but confirmation would be useful), where was Zimmerman's vehicle recovered, and what was the walking distance separating them?  This blogger puts the death just to the right of his letter A; that works for me, and I am now waffling about my guess that final spot was a bit more towards the top of the map (I am missing a link to a third blogger who also makes the spot to the right of the A).  That said, I think we differ by a distance of maybe 20-30 yards, which may not mean much.

Fourth question - relating to the possible state of mind of one of the two fight participants and the ability of George Zimmerman to pick out people on drugs or acting oddly - did Trayvon Martin have any drugs or, for example, a half-empty flask of whiskey (some might say half-full) on him?

The NY Timies is unequivocal on this point (my emphasis):

MIAMI — Nearly three weeks after an unarmed teenager was killed in a small city north of Orlando, stirring an outcry, a few indisputable facts remain: the teenager, who was black, was carrying nothing but a bag of Skittles, some money and a can of iced tea when he was shot.

It is indisputable because the family said so; there has been no release of a police inventory from the crime scene.  Nor should there be, since the victim and his family have privacy rights, but this is my magic lantern.  Eventually the tox screen will provide an answer, I assume; the family could no doubt publicize that answer as soon as it is available, and a decision not to do so might be revealing.  Some enterprising reporter willing to deviate from the narrative might want to ask Mr. Crump about that.  As if.

Fifth question - can I ask for more questions?  Ahh, the question genie hates that one.  How about some suggestions?

Comments

[Pofarmer]

Stephanie

Shep is a moron.

[Rob Crawford]

shouldn't a grand jury get the final say not the opinion of the shooter or the Chief?

Say as to what? No one found any evidence of a crime. The evidence supports the claim of self defense, which is a legal act.

[MarkO]

John Kerry is a liar.

[Sue]

Looks like Zimmerman is going to have to be white. The Hispanic race hustlers are siding with the black race hustlers and are calling Zimmerman a murderer. NHE. Not Hispanic Enough.

[Pofarmer]

"
Sigh...I've been scammed by a kindygardner...

"having the body for 3 days" ......you give yourself away by spewing this crap.

please.take.your.ball.and.leave.
"

It's easier to argue if you don't worry about facts and stuff.

[jimmyk]

If the "unarmed" man had never thrown a punch, then, yes, the putative unarmed status could be used to cast doubt on whether the shooter was reasonably in fear of serious harm or death.

I would say that merely throwing a punch doesn't do it, but pinning the guy on the ground and punching him or knocking his head on the pavement does. "Stand your ground" or not, what makes self-defense credible in this case is the fact that he was being beaten while unable to extricate himself. No need for him to wait and see if more serious harm or death is intended.

[Threadkiller]

I was going to say that, DoT. I swear it.

[Sue]

Deb,

The father, in quotes:

"...I'm living down here. He was sitting on the porch and this man killed him."

Trayvon is now sitting on his porch when Zimmerman killed him.

[Jay]

Stephanie-- the problem Chief Lee and the prosecutor have is that they released GZ on his say so, very limited physical evidence and no GJ review.

How does one get to this level of stupid?

[Enlightened]

Super - Now Rosanne Barr decides to twitter a "Zimmerman" address....and is saying she is going to the address....

[Rob Crawford]

Super - Now Rosanne Barr decides to twitter a "Zimmerman" address....and is saying she is going to the address....

Meh. Florida has some experts on handling large mammals.

[DebinNC]

Yeah, Mr. Martin and his gf were misinformed, but John the eyewitness seems very clear and credible about what he saw.

[Threadkiller]

Big Z got the drop on Martin.

Now they take the "one drop" from Big Z.

[Janet]

. The Hispanic race hustlers are siding with the black race hustlers and are calling Zimmerman a murderer. NHE. Not Hispanic Enough.

Unbelievable. I just pray this will be a light bulb moment for some Americans....that they will see the hatred & insanity of the left.

[Jim Rhoads a/k/a vnjagvet]

Can anyone explain how the actions against Zimmerman being ginned up by the left side of the political spectrum today do not resemble the lynch mob's actions depicted so memorably in the iconic liberal flick The Oxbow Incident?

And don't tell me it's because Dana Andrews was innocent and George Zimmerman is guilty.

[Enlightened]

"...I'm living down here. He was sitting on the porch and this man killed him."

Brandy Green - a family friend - was the person that spoke this...honestly (and I know I will get clobbered (thanks Sarah P for todays buzzword) for saying this - but I think when Ms. Green said this, she was speaking in the manner some black people do shortening sentences to a few words etc

When she said it (to me at least) I think she meant she had just "seen him on the porch" and now "the man kill him"...I don't think she meant he was killed on the porch...

[AltaMike]

"carrying nothing but a bag of Skittles, some money and a can of iced tea when he was shot."

I'm curious as to why there is no mention of him carrying a cell phone? Wasn't his GF talking to him around the time of the shooting?

[Sue]

Enlightened,

The article used the quote for the father. I didn't actually watch the video.

[Threadkiller]

Pravda missed the Open Mic directive. They are not waiting until after the election.

http://english.pravda.ru/opinion/columnists/29-03-2012/120917-barack_obama_foreign_student-0/

[Rob Crawford]

Can anyone explain how the actions against Zimmerman being ginned up by the left side of the political spectrum today do not resemble the lynch mob's actions depicted so memorably in the iconic liberal flick The Oxbow Incident?

Well, um, because...

IT JUST DOESN'T, OKAY?! HATER!!!

[Jim,MtnViewCA,USA]

Sen Kerry: "“I can tell you that we had one of the most rigorous and transparent legislative processes that I have witnessed in almost 3 decades here in the Congress."

Yeah, right.
And have any of them actually read it yet?

[Jane]

We worked with some of the brightest, most thoughtful and experienced constitutional lawyers in order to make sure that the law was constitutional.

I'd bet his boat that he didn't write or read one word of the bill and wouldn't recognize the constitution if he fell over it.

WH has ordered the hiring of 1400 IRS agents (now)to enforce Obamacare. I guess he is going ahead with it regardless of what the court says.

When is the House going to wise up and stop giving him the money.

[Pofarmer]

"I'm curious as to why there is no mention of him carrying a cell phone? Wasn't his GF talking to him around the time of the shooting? "

Telepathy

St. Travon.

[Sue]

TK,

You got me. You made me look. And now I'm pissed that I did. Regurgitating what has been said, over and over, doesn't make it true. ::grin::

[NK]

RobC-- appreciate you being more civil. The States' 'reasonable' use of lethal force common law and statutory guidelines are pretty consistent with idiosyncratic exceptions -- such as good samaritan third party statutes. I'll politely correct you; I never said being attacked by fists as opposed to a weapon precludes lethal force self -defense-- it depends on the circumstances and the shooter's reasonable fear of serious injury or death. hence the 40yo bankers wife who swore at Mike Tyson and then was being beaten by Tyson's fists can use lethal force in self-defense, even though she 'initiated' by swearing at Tyson. But if you're claiming lethal force in self-defense against an attacker using their fists rather than a weapon-- prosecutors want a real good explanation of why you were in fear of serious injury. Mike Tyson punching you, or a strong 17yo banging your head on the pavement, prosecutors and GJ will be persuaded that was reasonable under the circumstances -- what's the evidence? eyewitnesses and hospital treatment help persuade prosecutors and grand jurors of reasonable fear of serious injury.

[Pofarmer]

Has it been confirmed that Martin actually had the tea and skittles?

[Enlightened]

Anyway that video of Tracy Martin and Brandy Green on the morning after the shooting puts to bed forever the lie that Trayvon was unidentified in the morgue for 3 days. And it is so sad to see Mr. Martin on that video - his pain was palpable.

And Yes - John the witness seems very credible in that video and sadly is most likely in fear of his life now as well.

Breibart timeline of the race baiters jumping in puts the onus squarely on Sharpton and I have to agree. He is the asshole that has driven this into frenzy of hatred and even got his man the Prez to jump in.

[Pofarmer]

It's at night, in the rain, and there are no snacks in the house?

[Pofarmer]

It's at night, in the rain, and there are no snacks in the house?

[Pofarmer]

It's at night, in the rain, and there are no snacks in the house?

[Steve]

Once Zimmerman had the gun pointed at Martin, why did he have to shoot him? No matter the beating, the only way a shot can be justified is if they are both struggling for the gun or Martin rushes Zimmerman in an attempt to get the gun.

[Threadkiller]

Has it been confirmed he had a hoodie?

[Rex]

NK, it's clear that you are heavily influenced by how police and courts and the law works in New York City. I'm here ot tell you that it doesn't work that way in much of the rest of the country.

In much of the rest of the country, the police and/or DA have the balls to make their own determination on whether to charge or not. In NYC, the DA usually plays it safe and leaves it up to the grand jury to decide. Admittedly, in much of the rest of the country, potential hot potato cases are also given to the grand jury, but this didn't seem to be a hot potato case until the media built this into a hot potato.

I should also note that NYC, having so many people, typically has a standing grand jury which can meet almost instantaneously. In much of the rest of the country, grand jurys are empaneled only when there is need for one, which process typically takes a month.

Finally, the issues of self-defense and use of lethal force vary by jurisdiction. RobC is using the laws of Ohio; I presume that you are using the laws of NY. They're different. And Florida's is different from either of those. A lot of the cross-arguments occur here simply because it's not clear who is relying on which state's law.

[Clarice]

I never heard of the group presente.rg, the "online" group that says Zimmerman isn't really Hispanic so they're good to go on the lynching. Did anyone? Is this yet another Soros front?

[Threadkiller]

Sorry Sue. Friends?

:-)

[Enlightened]

Sue - The article used the quote for the father. I didn't actually watch the video

I know - and it is one of the reasons that lie that TM was killed on the porch was floating out there - egad journalists these days! And what editor let that one get through?

[NK]

Jay@359--

hey smart guy-- we'll pick a time and a place, you can tell me to my face how stupid I am.

[Pofarmer]

Wow, Steve's back. Now we're at double stupid on this issue.

[Threadkiller]

Why did he even put bullets in the gun?

Oh the humanity!!

[Sue]

TK,

Absolutely.

[NK]

Rex- I admitted I am influenced by the DA's in and around NYC, absolutely. The DA's learned 30 years ago how to defend against Sharpton and the rest of the racebaiters' BS. If they don't, other jurisdiction should use those procedures in 'hot potato' cases. I hate to see the race hustlers get an oportunity because of good faith -- but slow or sloppy-- police work.

[Threadkiller]

I did not see where NK's end of the dialog envoked name calling. Maybe he did and I missed it, but I sure don't think it is necessary.

[NK]

MarkO-- yes John Kerry is a liar, and Breyer is that dumb. read his 'living constitution' book.

[Enlightened]

"I'm curious as to why there is no mention of him carrying a cell phone? Wasn't his GF talking to him around the time of the shooting?"

I could be mistaken but somewhere I read that when TM was talking on the phone to his GF, he had a earbud on, and his phone was in his pocket.

When he died, he was found on his stomach and most likely the phone was still in his pocket. It may have been found by the ME once he was at the morgue?

The cell phone will only confirm if he was talking to his GF, the time he was talking to her in relation to Z 911 call and if GF did try and call back a couple times after 7:16 pm....

I don't see any great significance of the phone other than that. Should the cops have found it on him? Not sure if that is their responsibility to check pockets of the deceased or if they leave eveything to the ME so as not to destroy any evidence.

[Clarice]

Breyer's incoherent statements on Commerce Clause captured in Reason cartoon
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=xdXiOKTrEK8

[Melinda Romanoff]

OK, my turn.

Colonel Mustard, in the Living Room, with the wrench.

[pagar]

From Rocco's 01:57.
"Crime is rampant because the law-abiding, each of us, condone it, excuse it, permit it, submit to it. We permit and encourage it because we do not fight back, immediately, then and there, where it happens."

"The defect is there, in our character. We are a nation of cowards and shirkers. "

Looks to me like we might be seeing a lot of outrage because a alleged Democrat may have broken from the beliefs of the leftists.

[Steve]

Will the investigators be able to determine how close the gun was to Martin when he was shot? If the gun is within a foot or so of Martin, the shooting can be justified. If further away, I do not think so. How do you justify shooting an unarmed person who is not within touching distance?

[Janet]

presente.org - on their about page -

“ Today we must fight for a better world, without poverty, without racism, with peace. ” – Rigoberta Menchú, Nobel Peace Prize Winner

Sorta shows they are comfortable with frauds.

[Rob Crawford]

hence the 40yo bankers wife who swore at Mike Tyson and then was being beaten by Tyson's fists can use lethal force in self-defense, even though she 'initiated' by swearing at Tyson

And I'm telling you that by initiating it, she voided her claim to self defense. Again, the Ohio Attorney General's office: "First, the defendant must prove that he was not at fault for creating the situation. The defendant cannot be the first aggressor or initiator." And, yes, that includes making statements. You cannot have started the situation or escalated it and then claim self defense.

Sure, a jury might acquit her, but she's still going to face charges.

But if you're claiming lethal force in self-defense against an attacker using their fists rather than a weapon-- prosecutors want a real good explanation of why you were in fear of serious injury.

I never claimed otherwise.

What you're missing is that you always have to explain why you were in fear of serious injury or death, regardless of whether the attacker is "unarmed" or not. The "unarmed" is unimportant; the fear of serious harm or death is what's important.

You keep demanding that someone acting in self defense has extra hoops to jump through if they were attacked by fists -- it's just not true. They have to meet the same standards. The laws are the same. You keep acting like "unarmed" has some sort of legal or moral weight -- it flat-out doesn't.

BTW -- you can use lethal force in the defense of another person if and only if you are certain that person had the right to use lethal force in their own defense. If they initiated or escalated the encounter (and, yes, slurs and insults count as initiating), then you are in the wrong, regardless of any perceived imbalance between the two parties.

Oh, and ignorance of who started it is no defense.

[Enlightened]

"The phone was in his pocket and the earphone in his ear, Crump said"

Well that's where I heard that one...TN's attorney.

[NK]

Enlightened-- the cell phone makes the cops look bad and their investigation incomplete. That became one of the talking points that the race hustlers and media used to make this case a 'story'.

[Enlightened]

**TM's*** attorney

[Rob Crawford]

I don't see any great significance of the phone other than that.

If he were truly in fear for his safety, he could have called 911...

[Threadkiller]

Three foot long arms have a "touching distance" of one foot.

[NK]

RobC-- slurs/insults do not vitiate self-defense in NY State.

[Clarice]

Yes, Robb. And he wasn't so in fear that he couldn't call his gf and alk about what was happening instead of 911.

[Rob Crawford]

the cell phone makes the cops look bad and their investigation incomplete.

The cell phone had no bearing on the case.

[DebinNC]

How do you justify shooting an unarmed person who is not within touching distance?

Unless the sight of the gun made Trayvon jump to his feet, he was within touching distance of Zimmerman. I'd think forensics should show if Zimmerman shot Trayvon sitting above him and then shoved his body off to get to his feet, or if Trayvon was standing away when shot.

[Melinda Romanoff]

There's some story out there that the DoJ is about to indict Nikki Haley for tax fraud.

Anybody else seeing this stuff, other than what's on Memeorandom?

[Janet]

Roberto Lovato - co-founder of Presente.org

Tarso Luís Ramos: Tell me about your organization, Presente.org.
Roberto Lovato: Presente.org, which I co-founded in May 2009, is the preeminent online Latino advocacy organization. It’s kind of like a MoveOn.org for Latinos: its goal is to build Latino power through online and offline organizing.

[Clarice]

As I suspected it's a re-elect Obama front group.

[Sue]

Oh my stars, where is FedSec? Reporter on Hannity is claiming she spoke to one of George Zimmerman's neighbors and she was shown a picture and asked if it was George Zimmerman. It was a bloody picture of him.

[Janet]

from my 4:38 link -

"We got support from Latino groups like the Willie Velasquez Institute, the National Hispanic Media Coalition, and the Latino Policy Institute, and we got solidarity from non-Latino groups like AlterNet, Credo Mobile, MoveOn, Democrats.com, and Color of Change.

Also important were our friends in the media, especially inside CNN. Lou Dobbs made a lot of enemies. "

bold mine.

[Ignatz]

I've disagreed with NK occasionally, including on this thread, but I've never found him either stupid or any of the other less than charitable things that have been said about him today.
Not cool.

[Rob Crawford]

RobC-- slurs/insults do not vitiate self-defense in NY State.

Given your record, I won't take your word for that. And... good reason not to:

Sec. 35.15 Justification; use of physical force in defense of a person.
1. A person may, subject to the provisions of subdivision two, use physical force upon another person when and to the extent he reasonably believes such to be necessary to defend himself or a third person from what he reasonably believes to be the use or imminent use of unlawful physical force by such other person, unless:
(a) The latter`s conduct was provoked by the actor himself with intent to cause physical injury to another person;

Good luck proving that you didn't intend to start a fight when you started slinging slurs around.

(Source LUN)

[Rob Crawford]

I've disagreed with NK occasionally, including on this thread, but I've never found him either stupid or any of the other less than charitable things that have been said about him today.

Has NK repeatedly, and apparently purposefully, misstated someone's position before?

[Jack is Back!]

We are fortunte here in this part of Florida to have comic relief for all these little national stories we have to endure like Casey Anthony and Martin/Zimmerman. Her name is Corrine Brown and she is not a standup comedian but a Congresswoman with the most gerrymandered district in America. You have to be a Picasso to design her district in order to keep the average IQ of its voters around 70 to 72.

By the way, the young white female she couldn't name is Michele Parker, the People's Court participant who went missing in November 2011.

[jimmyk]

Mel,
Strangely, if you google Nikki Haley, there's a Daily Beast item, but if you click on it, it's disappeared. Almost as if they reported it and then decided to retract it.

[Jack is Back!]

Sorry but the link doesn't seem to work.

Try this and have a laugh.

[boatbuilder]

The cops don't mention a cell phone and the GF and the lawyer cite it as evidence of bad faith and/or incompetence on the part of the cops. If there is no cellphone it is certainly indicative of pure BS on the part of Crump and/or his witness, the girlfriend. If there is a cell phone it makes the cops looks like they may not have followed up on available evidence, since the gf claims that she was talking to the victim during the moments preceding the incident and they never talked to her (although that assumes that they haven't actually done that). If the cops didn't follow up on the cellphone it calls much of the rest of the investigation into question. It would be instructive to know this.

[Janet]

Looks like Presente.org doesn't like Rubio either.

"MIAMI, Fla. – Outside the Hispanic Leadership Network’s 2012 Conference, Latino advocacy organization Presente Action launched the campaign “NO SOMOS RUBIOS,” (We are not Marco Rubios!) with a protest staged by Florida DREAM Act students and others..."

[Melinda Romanoff]

JiB-

My Reps are "better" than your Reps.

Jimmyk-

WaPo's still got it. This is classic Axelrod.

[narciso]

There seems to be a patttern to whom they target, Sarah, Nikki, and now in the LUN

[narciso]

Sorry, let me try again;

[Threadkiller]

I do not know if it was on purpose, Rob, but back in my birther youth, NK and I had a go at it. We both crossed up each others statements. Some ugly things were said.

I would hate to see a repeat.

[Sue]

The reporter that Hannity just had on was first on the scene and got interviews with people that other news organizations couldn't get, whether because they were afraid or were told by cops not to, she doesn't know. One thing she said that was interesting to her was how far away some of the "witnesses" were to where the incident occurred. She was surprised they could hear screaming.

[Ignatz]

--unless:
(a) The latter`s conduct was provoked by the actor himself with intent to cause physical injury to another person;--

Maybe I'm misunderstanding that but does calling someone a pejorative qualify as intent to cause physical injury.
Seems kind of unlikely, no?

[Jane]

There's some story out there that the DoJ is about to indict Nikki Haley for tax fraud.

I saw it about 2 minutes ago. Maybe Daily Caller but I really don't know.

[Jack is Back!]

narciso,

Too damn hot to be a conservative. Need to muss her up a little and make her cry. She is perfect for the obligatory mud job. Since she in Wisconsin, I wonder who'll get the job? SEIU or the Teacher's Union?

[Jack is Back!]

One thing she said that was interesting to her was how far away some of the "witnesses" were to where the incident occurred. She was surprised they could hear screaming.

Isn't Shep on during the confrontation time frame? Even people in Sanford don't watch him. So lots of silence. Sound travels.

[Janet]

Roberto Lovato - from Wiki

the other founder is "Favianna Rodriguez, co-founder of Presente.org"

[Sue]

If you google Nikki Hayley you get this:

According to an anonymously-sourced report, South Carolina Governor and Mitt Romney supporter Nikki Haley has been under investigation for tax fraud and the ...

But when you click on the link to Daily Beast, it goes to an error page. They've pulled their story.

[boris]

On this issue NK has been mischaracterizing other's comments to a degree significantly less "polite" than "shut up" IMO.

[narciso]

Reallu it's open season on Sikh's now, Alabama is close enough to S. Carolina right

[Clarice]

JiB that link from CNN is hilarious!

[Ignatz]

--Has NK repeatedly, and apparently purposefully, misstated someone's position before?--

I see where he was accused of doing it by two or three different people but having reread a good portion of the thread can't see where he actually did.
I can see where he was called a liar, ignorant, stupid and told to shut up and that he didn't respond in kind and see his only response to have been to Jay's gratuitous insult at 4:20.

[narciso]

Not quite down the memory hole,

http://dailycaller.com/2012/03/29/report-doj-may-indict-sc-gov-nikki-haley-for-tax-fraud/

[Ignatz]

--On this issue NK has been mischaracterizing other's comments to a degree significantly less "polite" than "shut up" IMO.--

Citation to this mischaracterization please. Didn't see it myself.

[NK]

RobC-- below is the relevant text of NY State Penal Code 35.15 the self defense provison. As to "initial aggressor" using a slur or insult and nothing further, and walking away, that does not constititue physical aggression that vitiates reasonable force self-defense. If you slur and walk on by, and the other party physically attacks you, self-defense applies. if you use a slur and and shove the other party, and they punch you, self-defense doesn't apply and everybody's liable for a crime. Initial agressor means you physically started the fight, not that you had bad manners-- but it all depends on the facts.

Sec. 35.15 Justification; use of physical force in defense of a person.
1. A person may, subject to the provisions of subdivision two, use physical force upon another person when and to the extent he reasonably believes such to be necessary to defend himself or a third person from what he reasonably believes to be the use or imminent use of unlawful physical force by such other person, unless:
(a) The latter`s conduct was provoked by the actor himself with intent to cause physical injury to another person; or
(b) The actor was the initial aggressor; except that in such case his use of physical force is nevertheless justifiable if he has withdrawn from the encounter and effectively communicated such withdrawal to such other person but the latter persists in continuing the incident by the use or threatened imminent use of unlawful physical force;

[Threadkiller]

Attacks on Haley and Rubio?!?

Oh the lengths the left will go to in preventing a dual citizen from occupying the White House.

[narciso]

Then again, nothing surprises me on this score, except I don't see a byline by Will Folks

[Clarice]

Is Twitter complicit in threatening the life of Zimmerman by allowing this thread to remain online?

https://twitter.com/#!/KillZimmerman

[boris]

"... can't see where he actually did ..."

You seem like a very tolerant person iggy.

[NK]

Ig-- thanks for the kind words. I see where TK remembered our tiff years ago-- we both can be --uh- persistent. I still would like to meet Jay though-- I'll cop to that.

[NK]

Clarice-- very good point. Not that Holder would do anything about this outrage, but Twitter is going to find itself in very unhappy litigation when some nut acts on some suggestion Twitted on their service.

[Ignatz]

--You seem like a very tolerant person iggy.--

I would have preferred the citation but compliments are always accepted with gratitude, boris. :)

[Ignatz]

--but Twitter is going to find itself in very unhappy litigation when some nut acts on some suggestion Twitted on their service--

Wasn't there a case a few years back absolving internet providers of culpability for content carried on their networks? Seems twitter should qualify too.

[narciso]

I'm a little surprised he would put forward a story like this, with so little sourcing,

http://newsbusters.org/people/nicholas-ballasy

[boris]

"first off take it up with RobC he says fists always justify lETHAL self-defense"

Nothing Rob C has written would lead any reasonable person to that conclusion.