Trayvon Martin - Basic Geography May Cut Against Zimmerman (Or Not - See UPDATE)

[Upon booth review of the Zimmerman call to 911 I am reversing the call on the field.  The initial address offered by Zimmerman does not jibe with the final location he described - see UPDATE].

Bill Jacobson reiterates an important point in assessing the latest details to emerge on the Trayvon Martin shooting:

What was the geography?  Is there evidence Zimmerman continued to chase Martin after the 911 operator said it was not needed?  Was the shooting in a place where Zimmerman may have run into Martin while Zimmerman was heading towards a place he could be seen by police, or was the location indicative of Zimmerman still chasing Martin?

There is enough information in the Sanford PD police reports to take a stab at that.

The initial police call-out was to 1111 Retreat View Circle (addresses were dropped from the recorded 911 calls released to the public but are in the text of the reports - go figure.)

However, the responding officers redirect to 2821 Retreat View Circle and 1231 Twin Trees Lane in response to gunhots.  Eventually the body is found on the walkway between those two addresses.

Let's go to Google Maps for an aerial view.  1111 Retreat View Circle is marked as A; 2821 Retreat View Circle, reportedly a quarter mile away, is B; 1231 Twin Trees Lane is C.  The walkway is clearly visible to me, although Google Maps drew blue lines to guide a car.

 [LATE UPDATE: I have since learned that 1111 Retreat View Circle is the address for the clubhouse at the corner of Retreat View Circle and Twin Trees Lane.  Consequently, George Zimmerman may have been near the clubhouse on either street.]

For a higher perspective, here we go:

 

If every picture tell a story, what are we being told here?  First, was 1111 Retreat View Circle Zimmerman's correct address when he parked his car?  The police surely noted the address of the parked vehicle.

Secondly, assuming that the 1111 Retreat View Circle address is the appropriate starting point [a point I now question  - see UPDATE], a quarter mile is a four or five minute walk; based on the timing (and I will need to re-listen to the 911 calls), Zimmerman had gone a lot farther than he needed to go to check his address for the dispatcher (which was an earlier reported explanation).

In fact, if the first call-in was at precisely 7:11 (not, for example, 7:11:45) and the final gunshot was at 7:17, there is not much time for Zimmerman to have walked to the area of 2821 Retreat View Circle, turned back to his car, been confronted by Trayvon Martin, and scuffled for roughly a minute (the fatal gunshot is at the 41 second mark of one woman's 911 call; presumably she took a few seconds to recognize two men quarreling, find the phone and dial.)

Hmm.  The map tilts toward Trayvon, I would say - based on the assumption that 1111 Retreat View Circle is the starting point, Zimmerman followed on foot for roughly a quarter mile.

Let's reprise the latest detailed version:

In his version of events, Zimmerman had turned around and was walking back to his SUV when Trayvon approached him from behind, the two exchanged words and then Trayvon punched him in the nose, sending him to the ground, and began beating him.

In a similar earlier telling, Zimmerman reportedly claimed he stepped out of the car to doublecheck his address:

Zimmerman said he had stepped out of his truck to check the name of the street he was on when Trayvon attacked him from behind as he walked back to his truck, police said. He said he feared for his life and fired the semiautomatic handgun he was licensed to carry because he feared for his life.

That's a long walk to check an address.

However, one wonders - if Travon Martin came come through the gate (between A and B) fro the 7-Eleven at 1125 Rinehart Rd. and headed towards B, either Zimmerman parked in an odd place or had moved up towards the gate subsequently.

And do keep in mind - self-important cranks have rights in this free country, including the right to walk their own neighborhood (and run blogs...).  The police dispatcher urged Zimmerman to wait in his car for the responding officers but the PD considers that to be a suggestion rather than a lawful order.

INCLUDING THE 7-ELEVEN:

If in fact Trayvon Martin went to the nearest 7-Eleven at 1125 Rinehart Rd, about 0.7 miles away (and not a closer "convenience store"), here is the aerial view of a driver's route.

It was reported that Trayvon had visited the neighborhood several times and would play football with the local kids, but would he know the back route to the 7-Eleven?  If not, the logical gate into the Retreat at Twin Lakes would be the one off of Oregon Ave, as shown above.

 

UPDATE:  Here is a transcript of the 911 call by Zimmerman, which concludes with this attempt to pinpoint his location for the responding officers [Keep in mind while reading this that the intial address, 1111 Retreat View Circle, was the address of the clubhouse]:

Zimmerman: If they come in through the gate, tell them to go straight past the club house, and uh, straight past the club house and make a left, and then they go past the mailboxes, that's my truck...[unintelligible] Dispatcher: What address are you parked in front of? Zimmerman: I don't know, it's a cut through so I don't know the address.

Well, now.  Straight past the clubhouse and turn left, then stop at the cut through - that is right near Point C.

His earlier attempt has a timeless "Who's on first" quality but seems to lead to the same place:

Zimmerman: Okay. These assholes they always get away. When you come to the clubhouse you come straight in and make a left. Actually you would go past the clubhouse.

Dispatcher: So it's on the lefthand side from the clubhouse?

Zimmerman: No you go in straight through the entrance and then you make a left...uh you go straight in, don't turn, and make a left. Shit he's running.

Shit, indeed.  Boots on the ground with a transcript in hand could resolve this.

CONCLUDING THOUGHT:  Based on the complete transcript of the Zimmerman call and guided by the thought that his initial location was near the clubhouse, Zimmerman has scarcely moved by the time he gives his final location.  So when and where was the dramatic chase to whch our friends on the left refer?

TRANSCRIPT:  Here is the Zimmerman 911 call for posterity:

Dispatcher: Sanford Police Department. ...

Zimmerman: Hey we've had some break-ins in my neighborhood, and there's a real suspicious guy, uh, [near] Retreat View Circle, um, the best address I can give you is 111 Retreat View Circle. This guy looks like he's up to no good, or he's on drugs or something. It's raining and he's just walking around, looking about.

Dispatcher: OK, and this guy is he white, black, or Hispanic? Zimmerman: He looks black. Dispatcher: Did you see what he was wearing?

Zimmerman: Yeah. A dark hoodie, like a grey hoodie, and either jeans or sweatpants and white tennis shoes. He's [unintelligible], he was just staring...

Dispatcher: OK, he's just walking around the area...

Zimmerman: ...looking at all the houses.

Dispatcher: OK... Zimmerman: Now he's just staring at me.

Dispatcher: OK--you said it's 1111 Retreat View? Or 111?

Zimmerman: That's the clubhouse...

Dispatcher: That's the clubhouse, do you know what the--he's near the clubhouse right now?

Zimmerman: Yeah, now he's coming towards me.

Dispatcher: OK.

Zimmerman: He's got his hand in his waistband. And he's a black male.

Dispatcher: How old would you say he looks?

Zimmerman: He's got button on his shirt, late teens. Dispatcher: Late teens ok.

Zimmerman: Somethings wrong with him. Yup, he's coming to check me out, he's got something in his hands, I don't know what his deal is.

Dispatcher: Just let me know if he does anything ok

Zimmerman: How long until you get an officer over here?

Dispatcher: Yeah we've got someone on the way, just let me know if this guy does anything else.

Zimmerman: Okay. These assholes they always get away. When you come to the clubhouse you come straight in and make a left. Actually you would go past the clubhouse.

Dispatcher: So it's on the lefthand side from the clubhouse?

Zimmerman: No you go in straight through the entrance and then you make a left...uh you go straight in, don't turn, and make a left. Shit he's running.

Dispatcher: He's running? Which way is he running?

Zimmerman: Down towards the other entrance to the neighborhood.

Dispatcher: Which entrance is that that he's heading towards?

Zimmerman: The back entrance...fucking [unintelligible]

Dispatcher: Are you following him?

Zimmerman: Yeah

Dispatcher: Ok, we don't need you to do that.

Zimmerman: Ok

Dispatcher: Alright sir what is your name?

Zimmerman: George...He ran.

Dispatcher: Alright George what's your last name?

Zimmerman: Zimmerman

Dispatcher: And George what's the phone number you're calling from?

Zimmerman: [redacted by Mother Jones] Dispatcher: Alright George we do have them on the way, do you want to meet with the officer when they get out there? Zimmerman: Alright, where you going to meet with them at?

Zimmerman: If they come in through the gate, tell them to go straight past the club house, and uh, straight past the club house and make a left, and then they go past the mailboxes, that's my truck...[unintelligible]

Dispatcher: What address are you parked in front of?

Zimmerman: I don't know, it's a cut through so I don't know the address.

Dispatcher: Okay do you live in the area? Zimmerman: Yeah, I...[unintelligible] Dispatcher: What's your apartment number?

Zimmerman: It's a home it's 1950, oh crap I don't want to give it all out, I don't know where this kid is.

Dispatcher: Okay do you want to just meet with them right near the mailboxes then?

Zimmerman: Yeah that's fine.

Dispatcher: Alright George, I'll let them know to meet you around there okay?

Zimmerman: Actually could you have them call me and I'll tell them where I'm at?

Dispatcher: Okay, yeah that's no problem.

Zimmerman: Should I give you my number or you got it?

Dispatcher: Yeah I got it [redacted by Mother Jones]

Zimmerman: Yeah you got it.

Dispatcher: Okay no problem, I'll let them know to call you when you're in the area.

Zimmerman: Thanks.

Dispatcher: You're welcome

Comments

[Matthew]

The discussion of where Zimmerman was is imho borderline irrelevant.(*) I doubt that whatever the dispatcher said could qualify as a "lawful order." From my own experience, dispatchers are not police officers. Zimmerman had just as much right to walk the streets of his own neighborhood as Trayvon.

(*) Only relevancy is if somehow the location could demonstrate who initiated the violence, which afaick it does not.

[Susan Harms]

Your analysis proves nothing and is not the only explanation. I seriously doubt that an out of shape 240lb man walked 1/4 mi in 3-4 min! Looks like to me he rounded that first corner from A to C. Are you after the truth or just to prove Travon was "innocent". The cops ON THE SCENE at the time made a "best judgement " and did not make an arrest. Psychologists teach cops that the first story is usually the right one .

[Your analysis proves nothing... Uhh, get used to it; I have, and it is sort of a way of life around here.

Are you after the truth or just to prove Travon was "innocent". We welcome new visitors! TM]

[jwest]

Tom,

One thing that would be helpful in the mapping exercise is to note the location of the 7/11 store and Trayvon’s father’s girlfriend’s condo. It would be interesting to know if Trayvon’s path was a logical route from one to another.

[Courtesy of Rick Ballard we have the 7-Eleven at 1125 Rinehart Rd; I welcome suggestions as to the girlfriends address. TM]

[b h obama]

Trayvon acted stupidly,he brought skittles to a gun fight.

[RattlerGator]

Very good point, jwest, although this case has already proven that logical routes may be dependent upon the eye of the beholder.

[jwest]

Also, the way I interpreted the addresses and sequence of events, 1111 Retreat View Circle was the location given in the initial 911 call, not the final location of Zimmerman’s SUV. Although I can’t link to any evidence, it would make sense that Zimmerman followed for a while in his vehicle, until Trayvon went between the buildings. Zimmerman would then need to get out to follow him.

[Janet]

Interesting short piece on the difference between W & Obama with the "hot mic" moment.

"But the point is that when the microphones were off, Bush was–to no one’s surprise–just as supportive of our allies and as tough on our adversaries as he was in public."

[Krystal]

Did Martin's parents put in a missing person's report or try to the night he didn't come back home all night? You would think if they did then the police would have made the connection and identified T Martin more quickly.

[Jane (Where is Jon Corzine?)]

So Obama has admitted if he had a son he would have gold teeth, tattoos and a twitter account referencing himeself as the "n" word.

Okay.

[fdcol63]

Having worked as a police dispatcher in a previous life, I'd take the address in the CAD (Computer Aided Dispatch) system or preliminary police report with a little grain of salt.

Often, if we dispatched police to a condo or apartment complex - especially one that was gated or relatively enclosed - that had individual addresses inside the complex, we would use the complex's "official" or published (gate or entrance0 address as an initial starting reference point.

This might or might not be updated accurately later depending on the reporting officer or investigation.

[BumperStickerist]

I'm going to build a SimCity replica of the neighborhood adn then introduce a Zimmerman Avatar and a Trayvon Avatar and then see what happens.

I'll let you know how their encounter turns out.

[steve]

Just curious: why would someone in a neighborhood watch need to get out of his car to check what street he was on? Wouldn't Zimmerman know the layout, especially if he was as active in patrolling the neighborhood (based on the number of 911 calls he reportedly made over the past months) as news reports have claimed?

[I had the same reaction when I first read this explanation. However, it was raining, after sunset, and (in my experience) street signs and house numbers are not always ideally viewed from a car. I gave it a 'maybe', but the quarter mile walk (if that is what is was) doesn't tie in well. TM.]

[bobby b]

Why is it of no importance to y'all that Z was part of Neighborhood Watch, which gives him an affirmative duty to check out people walking around inside a gated community in the dark? Y'all make him sound like he was out there for kicks. In truth, it sounds like he was doing what he was supposed to be doing.

[Jack is Back!]

Did I hear right that in the 911 call Zimmerman talked about the guy going through garbage bins which raised his suspicions?

[Maureen]

Logically, if you were trying to watch somebody in a platte of houses without high fences, or with pathways between houses with high fences, you'd go from A to C while keeping an eye (between houses) on what's going on over on the other street.

So then, the kid sees he's being watched and comes over to C and starts beating on Zimmerman; or he cuts between houses toward C and starts doing something suspicious, and somehow he and Zimmerman tangle.

[craig]

It's unlikely that Zimmerman followed Martin along the streets doubling back like that. More likely both of them were on the pathway between the streets (roughly A->C->B), which would account for the confusion over the closest street name.

[JeffC]

looks like a thug, tweets like a thug, multiple suspensions from school like a thug, beats on a man like a thug ... sounds like a nice sweet kid to me ... but he didn't deserve to die for being a thug wannabe ... and certainly didn't deserve to be left in the morgue for 3 days waiting for someone to claim him ...

[sbw]

And who trusts Google Map addresses anyway? My house is located a quarter mile away from where it really is -- but don't tell anyone 'cause I'm hiding.

[Zaggs]

I'm confused. What keeps the path from going from A, taking the first right and going directly to C? Or from cutting across from B to C? Either severely shortens the length.

[jimmyk]

Just curious: why would someone in a neighborhood watch need to get out of his car to check what street he was on?

Not the street, the address, that is, the house number, which at night is often hard to see from one's vehicle.

[Rob Crawford]

Yes, Tom, "self-important cranks" have rights. Like the right to play amateur CSI on his blog. When are you going to whip off your sunglasses and offer a quip?

Weird how the people who were actually there at the time, not depending on randomly assembled satellite photo reconstructions, who spoke to witnesses and examined the actual evidence, came to a completely different conclusion.

[NK]

TomM-- you're killin' me with this Zimmerman stuff. Enough. A 28 yo man and a 17yo kid acted stupidly, and then violently, and then fatally, the kid is dead and the man's life is ruined. Then the race hustlers (INCLUDING the Black Panthers) move in and the POTUS disgraces himself. Now you're endlessly speculating about routes taken and possble senarios like you're playing a game of Clue. This is becoming Bonfire of the Vanities with tats and tweets; you're becoming part of an ugly game (at least you have kept the self-awareness to call yourself a self-important crank.) Enough.

[Conrad]

A question and a comment:

Question: How was Zimmerman able to shoot Martin with the latter on top of him, pounding his head against the sidewalk? (Not being snarky here; I just haven't heard a description of how the actual shooting occurred.)

Comment: Somewhat OT, but when I listened to the supposed "f*ing 'coons'" audio, it seemed fairly clear to me that Zimmerman was saying "f*ing phones." Anyone else hear that?

[Mapreader]

Dude, the walking distance, as measured by your own map, between points a and b is 550 feet or so. Let's say 600 feet, that's 200 yards. Aproximately a tenth of a mile.
The distance given by Google is the distance to be driven if taking the delineated route.
I'd say the maps confirm, rather than contradict Zimmerman.

[Nuge]

This is all supposition since you don't even know the path Aimmerman is claiming.. PLUS It's one football field via google 600 feet from A to C. Even a portly fellow could do that in less than 4 mins.

The police would have recreated at the scene.

[MarkO]

Someone here from CSI, please tell me Martin's motive for attacking Zimmerman. That doesn't seem to make much sense to me.

[daddy]

G'morning,

I see that this instant Tom Brokaw is on CNBC giving his view of reality.

Mr Brokaw always lauds the "Greatest Generation", because he tells us that when faced with what needed to be done, that generation did what they had to do at the time it needed to be done, and that that is why they are the Greatest Generation.

Brokaw has made millions on the sacrifices described in that book of his about the "Greatest Generation".

To me personallyBrokawe always had the personal chance, the personal opportunity, the golden moment to moment to emulate his unsung hero's and do what needed to be done at a particular point in time---asking Clinton about Lewinsky, and at that moment of courage and crisis and destiny, he caved like a cheap suit and sat on his ass gormless.

So excuse me for considering anything out of the mouth of Tom Brokaw as anything other than self serving drivel. That useless rotten sunuvabitch was given the exact moment, and the exact platform, and the exact opportunity in historical time to ask the important questions that needed to be asked at that crucial time in history, and Tom Brokaw, unlike all those brave American's that he makes money off, sat on his ass and did nothing.

Screw you Tom Brokaw. I really, really, really do hate your guts.

[Janet]

Like James D. posted on the other thread -

"We've got eleventy zillion dollars in federal debt, energy prices going through the roof, the Democratic takeover of health care being debated in the Supreme Court this week, the possibility of a general war in the Middle East, and on and on and on...

And what's the number one topic in the news, that the Democratic Party toadies in the MSM are breathlessly covering 24/7? That a Hispanic man shot a black teenager in Florida and how President Zero feels about it, and how it's all the fault of white racism throughout the country (and, per Krugman in the NYT today, the the Koch brothers as well). Sickening doesn't even begin to describe it."

[Fel]

I think your geography is way off. Assuming the building in front of the pool is the clubhouse (which seems reasonable to me) Zimmerman tells the 911 dispatcher to have the police come in through the main gate (Oregon Avenue) go "straight past the clubhouse and make a left and then go past the mailboxes you’ll see my truck." Straight past the clubhouse and make a left puts him on Twin Trees much closer to point C. He was probably parked somewhere close to the curve on Twin Trees.

[StuartD]

If you listen to the end of Z's call he tells the dispatcher to just have the police call him rather than meet at a preset location. He clearly intended to follow/chase M. Your map analysis is consistent with that as well as M's girlfriends recollection (which directly contradicts Z since the exchange of questions --which immediately preceded the fight--would have been face to face).

[centralcal]

I share your sentiments, daddy and extend them to all of his equally rotten colleagues.

[Janet]

Amen, daddy!!!

I feel that way with the so-called blue dog Democrats too like Sen. Jim Webb. He sat there with the Dems & voted to destroy our country.

They are cowards.

[Extraneus]

If Martin was slamming Zimmerman's head into a concrete sidewalk, I don't see how any of these details are relevant. Nothing about the "stand your ground" aspect of the FL law would be relevant, either, unless it was Martin who was acting in self-defense.

If someone's slamming your head into a concrete sidewalk, they are trying to kill or severely injure you, and if you're lucky enough to have a gun and are still conscious, they should be shot.

I appreciate TM's sleuthing, but it seems to me the two most relevant things are the eye-witness who said she saw Martin slamming Zimmerman's head and whether the wound(s) on the back of Zimmerman's head support her claim.

[Cecil Turner]

And do keep in mind - self-important cranks have rights in this free country, including the right to walk their own neighborhood (and run blogs...). The police dispatcher urged Zimmerman to wait in his car for the responding officers but the PD considers that to be a suggestion rather than a lawful order.

I'm not convinced it matters, anyway. AFAICT, "lawful orders" only appear in FL statutes in relation to emergencies and traffic stops:

(3) OBEDIENCE TO POLICE AND FIRE DEPARTMENT OFFICIALS.—It is unlawful and a misdemeanor of the second degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or s. 775.083, for any person willfully to fail or refuse to comply with any lawful order or direction of any law enforcement officer, traffic crash investigation officer as described in s. 316.640, traffic infraction enforcement officer as described in s. 316.640, or member of the fire department at the scene of a fire, rescue operation, or other emergency.

It fairly clearly doesn't apply here, and I know of no general duty to follow a 911 operator's directions. Similarly, while it may be a misdemeanor to provide false information to police, nothing Zimmerman told them has any real bearing on whether or not he was legally allowed to be where he was at the time. And barring some strange new information, he was.

The only real question of fact that matters to the self defense claim is who initiated the violence (and in this case, that's who hit whom first). And so far the only thing even suggesting that was Zimmerman is the girlfriend's claim to've heard something she interpreted as a push on the phone call. Which isn't very convincing.

[NK]

I am with JamesD/Janet-- this circus is a race hustler money tree, and 'Bam's chance to distract from Obamacare in the Supreme Court and the Mullah bomb. MelR was kind enought to link tho the Zerohedge charts. I looked at them very late last night; to me they spell STAGFLATION. The Fed is Dollar debasiing and causing food and enegy inflation and simultaneously the 'Bam/Congress tango is killing growth with insane debt, Obamacare threatened tax increases and EPA regs. It's 1979 all over again, and this time the stock market will crash simultaneously with long-term interest rates exploding. Just wait until we all see what 7% interest on $16TRILLION in debt looks like. Things are going to get ugly real fast-- 10% unemployment, 8% food inflation, $5gas and defense cuts to pay for $200/BILLION MORE interest costs. Obama and Ben B have really screwed the pooch here -- and people are BSing about Trayvon's route?-- Madness.

[Extraneus]

Now you're endlessly speculating about routes taken and possble senarios like you're playing a game of Clue.

NK, were you here for TM's posts on the Libby or Duke Lacrosse cases?

[Fen]

"he brought skittles to a gun fight"

No. There is no 7-11 store video of Martin.

Also, Martin's suspension resulted in the school checking his bags, where they found weed and stolen jewelry. Zimmerman claims he noticed Martin because he was behaving suspiciously, like maybe casing out the houses for theft.

[Janet]

Today is the Hands Off My Healthcare rally @ 1. It will be live streamed.

I've got a local election too for our County Board.

A lot of things going on...

[NK]

Ex-- fair point-- I was strictly a reader not a commenter then. Plus, at that time, of 5% unemployment and 2% inflation and the Housing Bubble not having burst yet, those stories were a mild distraction. These are serious times, and serious people have to confront them, not join the circus.

[narciso]

I've always had a twitchy feeling about Webb,
his outsize critique of the Persian Gulf then
the Iraq War, then joining the party that had
slandered many of his fellow soldiers, sailors
and marines, in the formative conflict of his day,

Now so many things in this case don't ring true starting with the 'gated community' nonsense, there are a series of cul de sacs,
the supposed motive for Zimmerman, the involvement of Sharpton, Obama, and the like, always a bad sign,

[HeatSeeker2011]

"If in fact Trayvon Martin went to the nearest 7-Eleven at 1125 Rinehart Rd, about .7 miles away (and not a closer "convenience store"), here is the aerial view of a driver's route."

He walked 1.4 miles (0.7 miles each way) to buy a pack of candy and a bottle of tea? After dark? In the rain? During halftime of a basketball game?

Get real.

[Janet]

I agree that this event needs to be picked apart. The "Army of Davids" needs to fight on all fronts though. I guess that is my point. :) Who knows what the hell I mean...I'm just afraid for my country.

[narciso]

I posted this, at the tail end of the last thread,

http://hotair.com/greenroom/archives/2012/03/24/russian-troop-deployments-in-the-south/

it feels like 'deja vu' all over again, and remember at the time, Obama believed both Georgia and Russia were at fault.

[boris]

"These are serious times, and serious people have to confront them, not join the circus"

OTOH the acting out over this circus could easily devolve into serious violence. What happens to those issues then?

GWB probably would have lost 2004 were it not for blogger attention directed at details of the TANG memo circus.

[fdcol63]

He may not have gone to the 7-11 just for skittles and tea. He may have gone there to meet up with some of his fellow gangbangers or his marijuana dealer.

[Jane (Where is Jon Corzine?)]

NK, were you here for TM's posts on the Libby or Duke Lacrosse cases?

My first thought too. If TM is true to form, he will follow this story closely and do it better than anyone else.

None of that stops us from talking about everything else going on. It's not like we ever stay on topic.

[fdcol63]

Oh, wait. Sorry ... he was from Miami, wasn't he? So his gang buddies were probably in Miami.

[Randy]

Zimmerman played cop, spooked an 18 yo kid while doing so, leading to a confrontation and then an altercation that led to Zimmerman shooting and killing Martin.

Zimmerman may not be guilty of any crime, but he bears the responsibility for Martin's death. Zimmerman has the right to go down the street, just like Martin did. He didn't have the right to stalk a person who'd committed no crime that evening, and that's what he did and it led to him killing an innocent man.

None of this happens without Zimmerman's actions. The totality of events that evening makes him morally culpable for Martin's death, if not criminally responsible.

[Boyd]

Hard to say how this will turn out but one thing is for certain. No matter how few racially motivated incidents there are the race baiters will never accept it's few enough to prove there has been any progress in race relations in America. Even a clear Duke Lacross episode here will not matter since no amount of contrary evidance can disprove a narrative. Narratives are fairy-tales that by their nature make no use of or need facts. True or false never enters the equation.

[rse]

LUN is a nice contextual overview from powerline on bo's comments to medvedev in light of his oft-expressed hostility to nuclear weapons.

Not news to us but a nice summary.

Like any good political theorist it is clear that bo never lets reality and facts supersede his theories. That's one of the primary indicators we are dealing with an idealogue.

[Extraneus]

Anti-Obama protest in SF far outdraws any Occupy event this year; still ignored by MSM

[GMAX]

I listened to David Rivkin this AM on Bill Bennett's show. I will say it appears the 26 states have chosen exceedingly well. The man is erudite and composed, knows the words of the Constitution cold as well as seems to be capable of instant recall on many court decisions which are relevant to the issue at hand, ie that Obamacare is an unconstitutional intrusion on individual freedom, an unprecendented expansion of the Commerce clause to the point that there can be no real limitation on what the Federal govt can do, if it stands.

He says it falls, and on the point of limitation of powers that Kennedy has been consistent and a rock. Hope he is correct.

[fdcol63]

Whatever Zimmerman's actions in "stalking" or following Martin through the complex, Martin ALWAYS had his own free will.

He NEVER had to assault Zimmerman. He could have just stood there with Zimmerman until the police arrived and he could have explained why he was in the neighborhood.

Or he could have just kept walking.

[Janet]

Some wonderful pictures of the Stand Up For Religious Freedom event in San Francisco. via Zombie

"Anti-Obama protest in SF far outdraws any Occupy event this year; still ignored by MSM"

[Velfred]

You're assuming that Martin followed streets, I'll bet he cut through yards. They do that around here, too. They even go through garages, looking for a shorter route, you know, a rear exit...at least that's what they'll say when confronted. Or, they just run...all the faster to get to their intended destination, right?

In listening to the 911 call, I heard what sounded like multiple gunshots. So; they were probably fighting over the gun, which increases a (loosing) bottom fighter's desperation, pulling the trigger instinctively during the struggle. Had Martin's finger been on the trigger, you think he wouldn't have shot Zimmerman?

Tragic as this situation is, Trayvon isn't a victim anymore than Zimmerman was a stalker. The last thing an innocent walker would do if confronted by a 'citizen watch' individual would be aggressively mouth off, increasing tensions. They'd likely be glad for the escort, in such times as these are.

[narciso]

Now in light of why linked earlier, this might have been a signal to Putin, to not move South further into the Caucusus, so that Obama doesn't have to vote 'present' yet again.

Of course, that will not stop Putin, in part because he has to appease his more militant
supporters in the Siloviki like Rogozin, now
that his popularity has dwindled.

[NK]

I would point this out-- 1. DukeLax- had clear villains, a lying drug addled skank, academic poseurs AND more importantly a corrupt DA, and 2. LibbyGate-- had clear villains as well, the national media conspiracy and their CIA enablers. Who are the villains here? The race hustlers-- OK yes absolutely; but anybody trying to make either Zimmerman or Trayvon a villain will probably be very dissappointed. A wannabe gangbanger and a wannabe cop meet up, act stupidly, and one winds up dead. Big social issue? -- don't be stupid. End of morality tale.

[GMAX]

Insty links to Bob Krumm who seems to nail it with this analysis:

So what do we know of President Obama’s instincts. In the absence of complete knowledge, apparently he reflexively views typical white people, particularly the police, as bitter clingers to antiquated doctrines. Meanwhile, he appears to be solicitous towards adversaries and competitors, even at the expense of friends and while giving short shrift to long-time allies.

There is a name for this kind of instinct: it is called bad judgment. We see it recently when the Administration supports the spending of hundreds of millions of dollars on projects with little potential for return on investment without government intervention, but who denies approval for projects that cost the taxpayer nothing because investors are glad to bring their own money to the table. I could go on, but there are numerous other examples of where the President’s choice has been magnificently wrong.

The President’s acoyltes attribute the shortcomings of his actions to bad luck, incomplete knowledge, and political opposition, but maybe the truth is that he is wrong far more often than he is right and that the President’s frequent miscues are not part of a political plan, but are simply the result of the President’s terrible, horrible, no good, very bad instincts.

[MarkO]

" Martin ALWAYS had his own free will."

I agree. But, here's the issue. Most robbers avoid confrontation and simply go away, waiting for an easier spot. Why does Martin come upon Zimmerman and start a fight with him? I can't come up with a good reason.

[Clarice]

"He was probably parked somewhere close to the curve on Twin Trees." That's what the map prepared by PW and posted by Narciso last night shows. And it was right near a foot path not far from where the tussle and shooting took place.

[Hal]

This is all very interesting but the sat photos do not tell you the whole story nor are they current. You have to be on the ground to discover are there any obstacles fences, ditches, dogs, etc. that do not show up on sat photos. Investigators will have to walk it on the ground ASAP to determine what may have happened. There is hyperbole on both sides and the truth, as usual, probably lies somewhere between. I only hope that the media frenzy will allow unbiased investigation.

[R C Dean]

A few things to think about:

(1) Zimmerman took a gun with him when following someone to make sure they didn't get away. One thing my CCW classes taught me is that, if you have your gun, you DON'T GO LOOKING FOR TROUBLE. Zimmerman did. Somebody died at his hands. To me, that's a real problem.

(2) We don't know, and will never know, exactly who started the physical confrontation. But, Zimmerman was out there to make sure Trayvon "didn't get away". I think its dangerous to assume that Zimmerman did not escalate, perhaps just by grabbing Trayvon's arm.

(3) Zimmerman's story ("I was just walking along, going back to my car, minding my own business, when he jumped me from behind") strikes me as a little too pat. The girlfriend's account of the phone call strikes me as being about what you would expect. They can't both be telling the truth, and I give the nod to her. YMMV.

(4) Frankly, I give little credence to anything the cops say here, because (a) they screwed up royally on day one and (b) are now in full CYA mode.

What a mess.

[NK]

rse-- 'Bam is BOTH a leftwing ideologue AND a narcisist-- that's what makes him dangerous and delusional. A historical analogy-- Stalin: there are historical accounts that when the Wehrmacht blitzed into southern USSR in violation of the "NonAggression Pact" Stalin went into a depression because he couldn't accept his narcisist fueled delusion that Hitler would never betray HIM-- it was all about Stalin. Same with 'Bam. What happens when Putin or the Mullahs stick the knife into 'Bam and the poseur is confronted with his own incompetence? And we talk about trayvon.

[Extraneus]

Zimmerman played cop, spooked an 18 yo kid while doing so, leading to a confrontation and then an altercation that led to Zimmerman shooting and killing Martin.

[snip]

He didn't have the right to stalk a person who'd committed no crime that evening, and that's what he did and it led to him killing an innocent man.

Never mind all of your other invented facts, what's so innocent about slamming someone's head into a concrete sidewalk?

[Sue]

Why does Martin come upon Zimmerman and start a fight with him? I can't come up with a good reason.

He's a punk?

[Cecil Turner]

None of this happens without Zimmerman's actions. The totality of events that evening makes him morally culpable for Martin's death, if not criminally responsible.

If we're assuming it all happened exactly as Zimmerman's reported story claims, he certainly bears some responsibility. And in particular the version wherein he was afraid Martin was going after the gun highlights the danger of getting into a close-quarters scuffle whilst carrying a firearm (and the imprudence of doing things like neighborhood watch armed).

However, again assuming the facts as stated, if Martin initiated the physical violence, that is the critical event, and he bears the lion's share of the responsibility (criminal and moral) for the way things turned out. There seems to be a significant segment of public opinion that would excuse a physical assault by Martin. It's not excusable.

[jwest]

Nice map update with 7/11 store location, but it really doesn’t shed any more light on the situation until we find out the name of Trayvon’s father’s girlfriend. With her name, we can find an address and then plot the route that an innocent, Skittles-buying teenager would follow.

[narciso]

The lad didn't have terribly good judgement, after the first suspension, why would you go and do something to get you into more trouble,
If you're far away why not drive your car to and from your location, in the rain,

[And cake.]

We got circuses.
========

[Mike Giles]

"If someone's slamming your head into a concrete sidewalk, they are trying to kill or severely injure you, and if you're lucky enough to have a gun and are still conscious, they should be shot."

Unless of course they initiated the altercation. If you accost someone, a fight develops, and the person you accosted is winning, does the Florida Law allow you to shoot that person, because you are now on the losing end of a situation you caused? Imagine that, fighting back when a stranger grabs or otherwise confronts you. According to way too many of you people, if you start the fight and you're losing the fight, then it's okay to shoot the person who's winning the fight. Especially if the person you confronted has knocked you down, smacked you head on the ground a few times, then backed off - as kids fighting often do - to talk trash, showboat, inquire if you've "had enough", etc.. That's your opportunity to pull your gun and "reclaim your manhood".

[DebinNC]

Why does Martin come upon Zimmerman and start a fight with him? I can't come up with a good reason.

Angry at being followed? Showing off for the girl on the phone?

[David]

I think Extraneous has nailed it ("If Martin was slamming Zimmerman's head into a concrete sidewalk, I don't see how any of these details are relevant. Nothing about the "stand your ground" aspect of the FL law would be relevant, either, unless it was Martin who was acting in self-defense.")

It's worth remembering that it's entirely possible that in the heat of the moment, both parties were acting in self-defense, each tragically misreading the situation. Zimmerman may have thought he was acting like a cop, but to Martin he might well have come across as someone crazy and threatening. Did Z ever even identify himself as "neighborhood watch"?

[Threadkiller]

I missed the report that he took the gun with him to keep people from getting away. Did you make that up?

[jimmyk]

anybody trying to make either Zimmerman or Trayvon a villain will probably be very dissappointed. A wannabe gangbanger and a wannabe cop meet up, act stupidly, and one winds up dead. Big social issue? -- don't be stupid. End of morality tale.

If Trayvon sucker punched Zimmerman and started bashing his head on the concrete, that's villain enough for me. Will we ever know for sure? I think we'll be pretty certain by the time this subsides.

The reason to pursue this story is because if it's anything but absolutely certain, meaning Tawana Brawley certain, the race hustlers will continue to exploit it, and who knows what that could lead to.

[daddy]

G'mornin' TM

Google tells us that the word "Zimmerman" Means"

" "carpenter" in German. In Middle High German, it was "Zimberman", the word "zimber" meaning timber, or one who works with wood, and "man", i.e., man who works with wood. Zimmerman is a German and Jewish (Ashkenazic) name that was Americanized by many families by changing it to its English equivalent... so, Zimmerman came from Carpenter.

Googling also tells us that the word "Martin" means:

"The name Martin is of Latin origin. The meaning of Martin is "of mars the god of war, warlike". It is also of English origin, where it means "warlike" and French origin, where it means "warlike".

So we have had a confrontation between a "Carpenter" and a someone who is "warlike."

Lets go to the first names via google for enlightenment:

George (aka Zimmerman, the White Hispanic):

"From the Greek name Γεωργιος (Georgios) which was derived from the Greek word γεωργος (georgos) meaning "farmer, earthworker", itself derived from the elements γη (ge) "earth" and εργον (ergon) "work". Saint George was a 3rd-century Roman soldier from Palestine who was martyred during the persecutions of emperor Diocletian."

So the "martyred Jewish carpenter earthworker", Zimmerman was jumping on the slender, 3 times suspended High school Martial individual, "Trayvon".

"Trayvon" does not appear in the standard Linguistic sources, but thankfully that name (if the MSM can believed) has been hoodie-winked, errr... copy-writed by his grieving mom. Assumptions that it means that "Hispanics" are "white" and whites are evil, are prevalent, tho' it may just as likely mean that Hispanics are okay if they vote Dem while whites remain evil unless they are black whites, which renders them racially invulnerable (ala SoleDad O'brien) unless they are conservatives.

Thankfully CRT (Critical Race Theory) is being applied to this conundrum, even as Obama whispers to the Russians that he will weaken America's protective Nuclear Capability after he wins the 2012 Election.

[narciso]

Oh crikey, really is that his pitch;

http://proteinwisdom.com/?p=38664#comments

[Pofarmer]

"A wannabe gangbanger and a wannabe cop meet up, act stupidly, and one winds up dead. Big social issue? -- don't be stupid. "

How about a gangbanger/burgler and someone trying to protect his loved ones and property? Hadn't there been a rash of burglaries in the area? I think I remember hearing Zimmerman say "they always get away" or something to that effect when told that he didn't need to follow. We have a right to be secure in our persons and homes.

As to the social issue, it's entirely constructed. The social issue that needs to be addressed, ie Black Crime and the Welfare Society, is one that the Powers that Be obviously don't want to deal with. The message is that the nice black Youth rustling around in your garage is probably just looking for a broom to sweep it out, and, for heavens sake, don't ask him what he's doing there, just lie back and think of the Queen.

[jimmyk]

MarkO, I'm not sure why you're looking for a motive. When I was about 12 I was walking home from a bus stop and some punk came up from behind me and slugged me in the jaw. He didn't know me from Adam, I never even saw him before the punch. No motive is necessary.

[fdcol63]

" ... Why does Martin come upon Zimmerman and start a fight with him? I can't come up with a good reason. ..."

1) Maybe Martin was angry that he was being followed and "hassled"?

2) Maybe Martin was high on marijuana, and perhaps more paranoid than usual?

3) Maybe Martin thought a violent encounter where he beat the shit out of some white Hispanic dude would boost his street cred with his gangstas?

[boris]

"Imagine that, fighting back when a stranger grabs or otherwise confronts you."

Imagine that, fighting back when a stranger knocks you to the ground and starts slamming your head on concrete.

[Neo]

Former NAACP leader C.L. Bryant is accusing Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton of “exploiting” the Trayvon Martin tragedy to “racially divide this country.”

“His family should be outraged at the fact that they’re using this child as the bait to inflame racial passions,” Rev. C.L. Bryant said in a Monday interview with The Daily Caller.

The conservative black pastor who was once the chapter president of the Garland, Texas NAACP called Jackson and Sharpton “race hustlers” and said they are “acting as though they are buzzards circling the carcass of this young boy.”

[Roland]

I appreciate TM's sleuthing, but it seems to me the two most relevant things are the eye-witness who said she saw Martin slamming Zimmerman's head and whether the wound(s) on the back of Zimmerman's head support her claim.

It is not necessary to prove Martin was actually bashing Zimmerman's head into the pavement. If the witness is correct at all, Martin was on top of Zimmerman hitting him in the face. If Zimmerman did not initiate the violence, he had sufficient reason to use the gun. If you have never been in that kind of situation, at night with a stranger who has attacked you and overpowered you on top of you beating your face, then you have no idea how terrifying it is.

It is not kids roughhousing. Zimmerman absolutely believed his life was in danger. I know. I have been there.

[Ron Reich]

Shameless photoshop of Trayvon in a Hoodie. The way the media is telling it..http://ibdst.blogspot.com/

[Jane (Where is Jon Corzine?)]

John Conyers and the Black Caucus have invited the Martins to come and testify before Minority members of Congress about the Stand Your Ground law.

I wonder if the president of the black people will attend. At least he should have the parents over to dinner to find out just how they did such a good job raising their son.

I can understand limiting the hearing since proportionately black people commit so many more crimes than the rest of us, they would be significantly - (and I'm sure they will argue unfairly) targeted by the Stand Your Ground law.

Could there be a more racist group of people?

[Billy Beck]

"Why does Martin come upon Zimmerman and start a fight with him?"

Because he's a seventeen year-old *man*, you see -- he's feeling testosterone-full of himself for the first times in his life -- and he's not going to be pushed around by anybody, with possible emphasis on some old white guy.

How is hard is that to figure out? Jeezis.

[holger danske]

Public records search puts Brandy Latresa Green (the gf in question)living at 2631 Retreat View Circle. South of your "B" and "C" points.
I haven't closely followed the clown posse this case has engendered but I have read media reports that Trayvon had no Id on him at the time and his family filed no missing person's report and his body was left unclaimed for 3 days. If this is true, curious.
Also the shooting appears to have occurred just doors from Green's residence, from which one would have a clear view down RTC. Nobody at Green's house heard or saw any of the commotion? And perhaps linked it to Trayvon's absence? Again, curious.

[Ignatz]

I would request that the record note my right margin currently carries an ad for some new Lifetime drama series called Client List which features a chicky (Jennifer Love Hewitt I believe) in a state of dress and pose not noticeably different than my allegedly (or 'confessed' as bubu might put it) NSFW Fibonacci sequences, except that she is in a more advanced state of undress than most of mine.

[MarkO]

I can accept the motive of being a jerk, being a punk, being stupid. All of those are historical motives for a fight. I just have to work those into the theory for the fight and the circumstances. The boy did, apparently, take a swing at a bus driver.

It's all still muddy for me.

Meanwhile, those whose powers of discernment exceed mine are "axing" for justice---whatever that is.

[MikeP]

Speculation is pointless. Absent evidence or a witness to who initiated the physical conflict, we are left with facts that point solely to justified self defense. Witness sees man1 on top of man2 punching him. Man2 admits to shooting man1 while on the ground while in fear for his life. Physical evidence should easily confirm this, i.e. wounds, powder burns, trajectory, yada yada yada.
Without direct evidence that Zimmerman initiated the physical confrontation then its case closed. STFU and go home.
1) It is not a crime to follow someone, particularly in your own neighborhood.
2) It is not a crime to confont someone, particularly in your own neighborhood.
3) It is not a crime to defend yourself against physical assault.
4) It is not a crime to use deadly force if your life is legitimately in danger (e.g. head into concrete repeatedly)

The castle doctrine is not even relevant here. Prior, the only limitation on use of deadly force was a requirement to retreat if at all possible. Having a 6'3" man on top of you makes retreat difficult if not impossible. Zimmerman's screaming for help also indicates a desire to retreat and cease the confrontation. Clearly self-defense. Barring of course evidence that contradicts the current story.

[Pofarmer]

crud. my right margin just has "no cost scooters". Unfair.

[Danube of Thought]

"Why does Martin come upon Zimmerman and start a fight with him? "

Remembering myself at seventeen, I would say "because he's seventeen."

[Neo]

ABC News reported a police source quoted Zimmerman as saying the youth had tried to get his gun.

[Clarice]

If you read Trayvon's tweets reposted by Daily Caller yesterday he sounds like quite a gangbanger, if that helps explain why he might strike someone with no objectively rational reason to do so.

[NK]

JimmyK-- you explain the one justification --IMO-- to follow this circus and produce the facts. Don't let it be hijacked by the race hustlers and the media scum. I agree with that -- I lived in NYC through the whole tawana brawley disgrace, a disgrace so craven even Al Sharpton pulled out of it before the 2 lawyers (both ultimately disbarred, one for unrelated reasons.) If TomM wants to expose lies to prevent that-- that makes sense.

[PaulL]

At some point, presumably after the thug was pounding Zimmerman's head on the concrete, the thug tried to grab Zimmerman's gun. Trying to get the gun is what led to the thug getting shot.

The thug was already trying to kill Zimmerman. That is what pounding his head on the concrete was all about. Is Zimmerman supposed to think that the thug isn't going to shoot him if the thug gets control of the gun?

[Manuel Transmission]

What I want to know is how this plays out if NBPP or other wackos press this to the next level. How many crackers are cleaning their weapons ready to put a .308 through some slag's forehead. As Cucullu once told me: "look a little further over you front sight."

As RH said: "an armed society is a polite society." did M know Z was packing? Would he still have played out any gangbanger wannabe visions in his head?

Enquiring minds want to know.

[narciso]

Who would be the judge to force an injunction against this;

http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/epa-to-impose-first-greenhouse-gas-limits-on-power-plants/2012/03/26/gIQAiJTscS_story.html?hpid=z7

[NK]

PaulL10:10-- sorry I can't even count the number of assumptions you make in those 5 sentences.

[fdcol63]

" ... ABC News reported a police source quoted Zimmerman as saying the youth had tried to get his gun. ..."

And the prevailing notion seems to be that Zimmerman had his gun out. We don't know that.

For all we know, Zimmerman had it holstered and concealed, and may not yet have produced it before Martin punched him in the nose and got him on the ground.

For all we know, either Martin noticed it somehow at that point during the scuffle and tried to pull it, or Zimmerman may have pulled it in self-defense and then a struggled ensued for possession of the gun, at which point Zimmerman was able to gain control and shoot.

Unless someone else has seen evidence that Zimmerman had it out and was holding it on Trayvon?

[Pofarmer]

Narc, I believe it's already been ruled that EPA can regulate CO2.

We. Are. So. Screwed.