Can We Hear Them Now?

From the Times:

Complex Attack by Taliban Sends Message to the West

Well, yes. And as with the Tet offensive in Vietnm, theTaliban doesn't need to win each (or any!) battle to win the war.

Yesterday Michael O'Hanlon was back with benchmarks for our progress in Afghanistan.  His conclusion:

Based on current trends — some of which are depicted in the chart accompanying this article — the most likely outcome in Afghanistan is a mixed one. Come 2014, when NATO withdraws, we expect that the Afghan government will be able to hold most cities and major roads. That is because of the often underappreciated improvement in its security forces, combined with the hits taken by the insurgency in recent years, as well as the general lack of appeal the Taliban movement holds for most urban Afghans. Yet the government will probably still be unable to control many of the nation’s rural areas, particularly in the East. On top of that, corruption among officials will perhaps further erode the government’s legitimacy; the economy will suffer as the stimulus provided by foreign troops declines; and the 2014 electoral process could easily divide Afghans more than unite them.

That said, 2014 is a long way off, and the situation could easily get better — or worse — than this extrapolation of current trends suggests.

FWIW, other than providing "leadership", Romney is not publicly on a different page from Obama.

And my commitment to admitting that we lack the commitment and probably the ability to achieve "victory" remains unwavering.

Comments

[Jack is Back!]

Didn't Crocker just state that it was the Harquanni Network of Thieves, Murderers, Usurpers and Conmen that did the attacks and not the Taliban?

[Danube of Thought]

Hate to say it, but beginning quite some time ago and continuing until this thing is over, every American life lost there is wasted. Tragic.

[NK]

Well--

this ireally no surprise. This was the situation in Afghanistan in late 2002, when Bush-Cheney decided that a light US footprint, and a NATO police force was the best way the go. Let's see, 9+ years later, we are in the same place, except for te casualties created by 'Bam's - Petreaus escalation-- go look at icasualties. As DoT says, tragic.

[Jack is Back!]

Unless you do something about Pakistan you can get nothing out of Afghanistan. The reason the Taliban exists is a device conjured up by the Paki's. The same with the Haqqani network.

It is the Great Game, always has been and always will be. It has suckered more than one superpower into its confines ever since Ranjit Singh's death and the 1st Afghan war of 1837.

At least the Chinese are smart enough to be satisfied with Tibet rather than lose all sense of reality in Afghanistan.

[Jane (where is Jon Corzine?)]

Frankly,

I don't understand why it was necessary to escalate "the good war" in the first place.

Oh yeah, politics.

[MarkO]

This diplomacy gives new meaning to the word “smart."

It is all wasted now.

[narciso]

A summary piece from some years ago,

http://www.longwarjournal.org/archives/2008/08/the_haqqani_network.php

[Rick Ballard]

OT

The Feds Empire State Crop Report provides an explanation for Turbo Timmy's pallid performance yesterday. The Fed must have hired an MFM propagandist to write

Although the general business conditions index fell fourteen points, it remained positive at 6.6.

It's a wonder that they didn't include a nice "updownward direction" newspeak descriptor to the diffusion index chart.

RSE,

If you scroll to the last page, you'll find evidence of the fantastic success of educational policy in making basic arithmetic and language skills scarce commodities in the employment market.

[narciso]

Voltaire would say 'it's the best of all possible words,' did one see Candide, anywhere
on the flyleaf;

[narciso]

Rest assured we have always been at peace, with EastAsia (I mean Pakistan) and NewsBeast's Giglio, assures us Imran Khan
will make a great PM.

[narciso]

His byline is all over the place;

http://hotair.com/archives/2012/04/16/reuters-those-green-collar-jobs-promises-have-been-a-bust-huh/

[Rick Ballard]

Narciso,

The Empire State survey included a question on anticipated wage increases - the answer was a huge 2.3% leap while the BLS CPI Summary suggest the cost of living is rising at a negligible 2.7% rate. Dr. Pangloss would surely cite those numbers as evidence that we truly are living in the best of all possible worlds.

WRT Afghanistan - that's where Alexander's army voted No Mas some 2342 years ago. How time flies.

[Steve]

What no one in the FP community is explaining is how Afg is a threat to the US.

[Danube of Thought]

Minus 16 at Raz today.

Trails Romney by 3.

[pagar]

rse and Narciso, Education and jobs!
I put this up at the end of the last open thread, but don 't know if anyone paid attention to it.

"On the other end of the spectrum, there are 191 schools where graduates had negative ROI. At Fayetteville State University in North Carolina, where only one out of three students graduates in six years, in-state grads earned $289,000 less over 30 years than a high school graduate earning at the 75th percentile, after deducting the cost of the degree. For out-of-state graduates, the figure is $338,000."

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/college-roi--what-we-found.html?page=1

College Grad earnings are making $289,000 less than high school grads!

Some students might might be better off making some changes in their college plans.

[Steve]

Romney is shaping up to be way too hawkish on US FP. The US should not have troops in South Korea. Iran having nukes is a big worry, but it is more of a worry for Asia, Europe and the ME than for the US. Let those regions take the lead.

[matt]

don't know if you caught the news that there was a major jailbreak in Waziristan yesterday as well, right on schedule of course. Hold them for the winter and let them lay up warm and under supervision and turn them loose come fighting season.

While the Tollybon/Haqqanis demonstrated their ability to coordinate attacks, the stats for yesterdays frame were @ 19:4 for the Karzai Warriors.Not so good on the shock and awe side for the Tollys.

Generally, it points to the chaos that will ensue once we're out of there.I'm going to bet that once we leave we see Pakistani advisers in the field planning missions and coordinating support. This was more common a few years ago until we started killing and capturing them.

As a good bye kiss off I would try to find half a dozen major ISI facilities and make sure they had accidents.

[Chubby]

by coincidend, just before checking in for my daily JOM fix, I had made note of the following quote:

((Kind-hearted people might of course think there was some ingenious way to disarm or defeat the enemy without too much bloodshed, and might imagine this is the true goal of the art of war. Pleasant as it sounds, it is a fallacy that must be exposed: war is such a dangerous business that the mistakes which come from kindness are the very worst.))

Carl von Clausewtiz - Sourced, On War
(1832)

[Sue]

We lost another one. Local hero. I didn't know this family personally. But being a small town, I knew who they were. He was an elite Army Ranger. That's 3 from here. Enough. BRING. THEM. HOME.

[Cecil Turner]

I don't know how the strategic situation will finally shake out, and we've made some tragic mistakes (mostly, flooding the country with money, which embeds a corruptocracy).

But this report, if true, is unmitigated good news. The terrorists were defeated by local forces, with total casualties (security and civilian) far less than the attackers'. Doesn't affect the strategic situation much, but the tactical ineptitude by the attackers is a good sign.

And one good thing about having a Democrat in office: the fourth estate doesn't feel the same pressing need to parrot enemy propaganda for domestic political consumption.

[rse]

Rick-that Appendix was asked for and will be used to continue to shift the focus away from academics to skills and vocational, as in life skills and social skills.

A legislator at a breakfast I was at last month said "We aren't going to try to create Rhodes scholars anymore. We just want the grads to be competent."

But the actual focus of the policies and practices had been weak academics for a long time. Shifting the focus away deliberately is simply going to make grads all the weaker. Which matters less in a state that thinks of ed as P-20 and a credential=employable.

But everyone cannot work in the public sector as in France and we are delivering a whole lot of lottery bets to a university system that creates little of marketable value. Just an expectation of entitlement and a belief that a well paying white collar job is now a birth right.

Bo knows one of the easiest ways to drive increase in size of govt is more grads with degrees than available jobs.

[Steve]

There does not look to be any military service by Romney's going back to George. Not right to advocate Americans fighting overseas when you yourself are not willing to join in.

[NK]

CecilT-- I was pleasantly surprised by the report. But in the 7 years of Bush-Cheney in Afghan-- 7 years, there were 600+ fatalitess. In 7 years, Bush-Cheney overthrew Mullah Omar, and routed the Taliban, and when the Taliban regrouped-- they created a favorable stalemate where the Taliban dominated small rural pockets in the South and East -- just like the status quo today. In 'Bam's 3+ years? 1100+ fatalties. 1100+ young american lives lost to keep up the political facade of a favorable stalemate? Truly scandalous, it's like nothing was learned from Vietnam.

[Elephants, not Afghanis.]

Go East, young Rick.
========

[Steve]

"... In 'Bam's 3+ years? 1100+ fatalties. 1100+ young american lives lost to keep up the political facade of a favorable stalemate? ..."

republicans in congress support Obama on Afg. So does Romney. So does the WSJ.

[Chubby]

NK, Romney should use the Bush vs. Obama fatality numbers that you cite as a talking point. Those are shocking.

[NK]

Steve-- so what? Like I give a shite about what anyone else thinks about burning kids lives? there is only one CINC-- 'Bam; there is only one man who became CINC by campaigning he'd FIX the REAL war-- 'Bam. There is only one man who keeps the kids in Afghan for his own political purposes -- 'Bam. I'll direct my fury at him thank you.

[Neo]

Kenyan businesses lately are increasingly becoming recipients of U.S. government largesse, as the Obama Administration, among pursuing other endeavors, aims to expand "livestock-related economic opportunities" in that nation. Although this and other recently released presolicitation notices for unrelated programs serve as advance alerts to potential vendors—and therefore do not offer cost estimates and other details— a review of U.S. government contracting actions nonetheless indicates a spike of activity in Kenya in a variety of sectors.

The White House is committing to a five-year effort to "improve the inclusiveness and competitiveness" of the livestock industry specifically in Marsabit and Garissa counties, Kenya, according to a presolicitation notice released April 12 that U.S. Trade Aid Monitor located via routine database research.

Has Obama bought any land in Marsabit and Garissa counties ? ... for his retirement ?

[GMAX]

Sue

Did you see the tape measure blast by Hamilton yesterday in the 8th? Yowza. On pace to hit 64 dingers if he keeps this up.

[Captain Hate]

Hmmm, I think we've got a visitor from Planet CRAZY UNCLE.

[Sue]

GMax,

No. I was busy with grandkids. Well, not in real time. I watched the news and saw it.

[fdcol63]

As JiB said, unless we deal with the Paks (especially the ISI) and the support and sanctuary they provide, the Taliban and other Islamists in Afghanistan will continue to be a threat.

I'm not personally convinced that the Karzai government is strong enough (or non-corrupt enough) to maintain their hold on power - even in Kabul and other larger cities - without US and NATO support.

How long will it be before the Taliban regain control of the whole country, as they did the first time?

Perhaps it was a mistake to try to rebuild the whole country and make it into some semblence of modern, western democracy.

But to completely withdraw seems to me to be a huge mistake, as if we've forgotten the lesson of 9/11.

We should either do something concrete about the Pak/ISI situation, or retain enough of a military/intelligence footprint to enable us to gather intelligence and disrupt Taliban/Islamist terrorist operations and training, and provide security to those Afghan civilians who stuck their necks out and have aided us these past few years.

If we abandon them now, NO ONE ELSE will ever trust the US again.

[Steve]

"... There is only one man who keeps the kids in Afghan for his own political purposes -- 'Bam. ..."

ok, so we replace Obama with Romney. At that point the likelihood of an exit from Afg decreases. Romney would want to keep troops in Afg. How many Americans would be dead today if US forces had stayed in Iraq as McCain, the WSJ and Bolton wanted to happen?

[Chubby]

as president, would Romney have the power to to toughen up the ROE?

[OldTimer]

"Has Obama bought any land in Marsabit and Garissa counties ? ... for his retirement ?"

(Could be...but maybe he's just buying their silence :)

[Rick Ballard]

CH,

It's Sybilvia in drag. Get the Bozon Shields up.

[Steve]

"... But to completely withdraw seems to me to be a huge mistake, as if we've forgotten the lesson of 9/11. ..."

I think the lesson of 9/11 was we should make sure no one can break into the cockpit door. And stop immigration from Muslim countries. And do not get involved in overseas conflicts. That just serves to rightfully anger foreigners against the US.

[Porchlight]

What does the WSJ have to do with any of this? Is it some kind of neocon code word or something?

[Chubby]

((Sybilvia))

have you noticed how "Sybilvia" semi-rhymes with "bilge"?

[Ignatz]

Rightfully?

[Steve]

"... What does the WSJ have to do with any of this? Is it some kind of neocon code word or something? ..."

the wall street journal editorial page. Hugely influential in republican circles. The WSJ-EP supports Paul Ryan in his plan to balance the budget 20 years from now.

[NK]

To thinking beings out there-- below is a link to Iraq icasualities. Fatalities in Iraq plummeted because the 2007-2008 Surge worked, because the Surge in Iraq COULD work. Iraq is a nationstate in the minds of Iraqis-- Iraqis were willing to suffer violence, to allow for a political arrangement that kept their country unified. The Surge justified asking young boys to sacrifice their lives, because a vital US interest was served, and their sacrifice allowed for success. Afghan is not a single unified nation in the minds of Afghans, it's a collection of tribes ad ethnic groups. So 'Bam sacrified over 1100 brilliant young Americans, with no definition of, much less any chance of success. 'Bam is a cancer. http://icasualties.org/

[Jack is Back!]

ICYMI, more smart diplomacy. Ozzie Guillen was unavailable for comment.

[Features Hill doing the rhumba]

[NK]

Over/Under on Steve's mental age? ... 11.

[Jane (where is Jon Corzine?)]

Is it a holiday anywhere else?

I really miss living on the marathon route.

[NK]

JiB-- Why? Why? did you link to that. Seeing an old,pudgy lesbian partying was vomit inducing. Honestly....

[fdcol63]

Steve sounds like a Paulite.

The problem that I see with the Paulite doctrine of "withdrawing into Fortress America" is that it will ignore some problems and allow them to grow and metastisize into larger problems that are harder - and perhaps impossible - to deal with.

I agree that we should commit our military judiciously and as a last resort when other diplomatic efforts have failed.

But some problems and threats should be deal with, sometimes militarily, and "nipped in the bud" before they grow into major crises.

[Steve]

"... So 'Bam sacrified over 1100 brilliant young Americans, with no definition of, much less any chance of success. 'Bam is a cancer. http://icasualties.org/ ..."

as is John McCain, John Bolton ( will serve in Romney's admin. Bibi likes him. ), the WSJ and Romney himself. All want the US military being active overseas. None interact much with leading FP figures in foreign nations.

[NK]

Over/under?... 10.5yo....

[Jim Ryan]

Bleg:

Anyone know if there is material in Band of Brothers which is too disturbing for an eleven-year-old? I bought the videos and am preparing to watch them for my son.

[Jack is Back!]

NK,

Had to pre-empt CC or Sue actually posting the photo on the thread. At least I made it a voluntary link:)

[Steve]

"... Steve sounds like a Paulite. ..."

No. a PJBer. I do not like Paul because a.) he is lame when questioning Bernanke in Congress. b.) His libertarian ideology does not recognize the threat from China.

I think if the US had more trade tariffs it could raise revenue to balance the budget and increase self reliant production here at home.

[Chubby]

maybe 77 yo, the same age as Ron Paul.

[NK]

JimR-- personally, I thought the 101st guys confirming that a US Soldier murdered a bunch of prisoners at Normandy is pretty disturbing; The last episode of a drunken soldier murdering a Brit and shooting an American is hard to explain. And generally, the close combat firefights are graphic and realistic. I don't think an 11 year old will understand the signifigance of the "brothers'" story, so he'll be left with confusing violent images -- IMO.

[Tonto]

O/T, and via Instapundit, a nice compilation of race mongers from Harry Stein, whose new book gives a shout-out to Extraneous and JustOneMinute on page 14.

[NK]

JiB-- I know , not your fault, I was an idiot for looking... my eyes!!!!.... my eyes!!!.....

[Neo]

Obama campaigned for Kenyan socialist Raila Odinga, who claims he is Obama’s cousin.

[Jane (where is Jon Corzine?)]

Speaking of Paulites - Gary Johnson was at yesterday's Tea Party rally. I saw him but didn't remember who he was until after I left (which is a pretty bad sign for him). The guy in the next booth was a Johnson-ite. I asked if he would vote for Mitt in the election. He said he was voting for Johnson because if Mitt was close enough in MA to need his vote, he would win by a landslide.

I was glad he thought it through and I agree with him.

[Jack is Back!]

Hey Tonto,

For a minute there I thought Harry had forgot Bellafonte but has him near the bottom (where he belongs).

Are you back in EH?

[marlene]

Jane,its also Patriots Day in Maine. I just drove the back roads after getting the dog from the groomer's and all the little town offices and schools are closed.Its a beautiful day here.We are now driving 30 miles to the groomer because she moved her shop,but she is the best!

[matt]

The end state in Afghanistan is likely to be a civil war between the Pashtuns and their allies and the northerners, much like it was in 2001.

The Pakistanis have been calling the shots in Pashtunistan and desperately want the Indians out, who have been making some inroads. At the same time it is my belief the ISI is directly tied to the drug trade, which it will continue to facilitate. Haqqanis are into it up to their eyeballs; Taliban is believed to be as well.

The warlords will pull their heavy equipment out of storage and it will go back to being Factionistan.

Perhaps if we executed the Surge with adequate forces and didn't delay and didn't telegraph our intentions and didn't put up with the sheer corruption, there would have been a chance. Right now everyone who can is eyeing the exits.

[I like Ike, er Steve the Fresh.]

Go, go, John Bolton.
==========

[Extraneus]

Heh. Already saw that via Insty, Tonto.

The book looks pretty interesting.

[Ignatz]

--No. a PJBer.--

Typo alert. Shouldn't that PBJer?

[Jane (where is Jon Corzine?)]

I didn't know they had Patriot's Day in Maine Marlene. Are they celebrating Lexington and Concord?

Patriot's Day is one of my favorite holidays. No one even notices it in central and western MA because there is no Boston marathon clogging up the streets.

[Tonto]

@Jack is Back

Yes, just back from Tucson, where my beloved NY Post is unavailable. If I were still there, I would have missed its screaming SWILLARY headline, not to mention it's puckishly captioned photo of the Hotel Caribe where the SS cavorted: HO-TEL!

[Tonto]

ITS puckishly captioned!

[GMAX]

Posted this on the dead thread but wanted it seen by more than me. I think I am correct, the assertion that the Catholic Church supported Obamacare is not correct and here is my basis for that, a direct quote from a spokesperson for USCCB:

n a statement the USCCB released to the Catholic Key blog, a bishops' representative corrects the record.
"Recently a reporter asked the staff of the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops whether, if the House of Representatives sent a health care reform bill to the Senate that includes acceptable pro-life language like the Stupak amendment, the Conference would defend the pro-life language against efforts by members of either political party to strike it from the bill. The staff answered yes," the statement says.
"Some took that answer out of context, and misinterpreted it as a commitment by the bishops to endorse an overall health care bill as long as it includes pro-life language. No such position has been taken," it continues.
"The Conference has said the Senate-passed health care bill fails our moral criteria and must be changed; if changes do occur the bishops would study the new bill, then develop a position based on our moral criteria," the USCCB concluded.
The Catholic Key also indicated the USCCB produced a one-page document outlining the numerous problems with the Senate health care bill in terms of abortion funding.

Bolding added, by me.

[Ignatz]

--ITS puckishly captioned!--

At a blog where 'pookitical' is an approved substitute for 'political' you're really getting pedantic, Kemosabe. :)

[GMAX]

Peanut Butter and Jelly ? PBJ ? Like in the daycare center? LOL

[Pofarmer]

Yes, weasel words, I realize GMAX. Point is, Council of Catholic Bishops supports universal health care. Remove the abortion provisions, and it would be what they ask for in their other statements. And, what my main point really is, is that if you support the Catholic position right now, especially if you are non Catholic, don't be surprised when you are stabbed in the back at a later date.

[Jim Ryan]

Thanks, NK. I guess I'll have to preview it.

[Tonto]

@Ignatz

Yeah, well, I'm no Clarice, so I don't know how much typo slack to expect. Sadly, I started life as a line editor, so "it's" for "its" is mandatory horse-shirt territory.

[GMAX]

Po

You said Obamacare and I said No. I think I am right. Its not weasel words, they did not support Obamacare. I said they took no position on Obamacare. That is fundamental correct. My guess is, that they also regret what they put out too now that they can see the true nature of the their opponents.

[marlene]

Jane,Patriot's Day in Maine mostly means school vacation. Maine was part of Massachusetts until 1820,so maybe the holiday honoring Revolutionary War patriots continued after statehood.

[Ben Franklin]

"The Afghan security forces “were on scene immediately, well-led and well-coordinated. They integrated their efforts, helped protect their fellow citizens and largely kept the insurgents contained,” Gen. John R. Allen, the top U.S. commander in Afghanistan, said in a statement."

The Admin has spin, and it's all good. We are to be assured the Afghan forces are legitimate and competent. The reverse is true.

No mention is made of the 'embedded mentors' who lead the Afghanis by the hand. This is to reassure ;us that the Afghanis will hold the fort while we are away.

Nonsense. It has been mega-clustered since MacChrystal was authorized to perform Night Raids. I blame Obama for his failure to fire the LIar at the outset.

[NK]

BenF-- in all seriousness, the Kabul government will hold Kabul and other urban areas with their troops, and US mentors-- oh yeah, the mentors will stay -- probably by CIA contract. The urban areas have no appetite for Taliban reign of religious terror Part II. But that would have been true whether there was a faux 2009-2011 surge or not. The monstrous fraud 'Bam has committed --IMO-- is to pretend to be fighting a strategic war, when in fact he is merely 'campaigning' in both political and military terms, and burning the lives of US kids all the while. And don't try to pull the 'honest' Lefty-- 'this is Obama's fault' BenF. You bought in to the whole Lefty "Afghanistan's the REAL war" nonsense.

[Dave (in MA)]

Shockingly, a Kenyan has won the Boston Marathon, for only the 20th time out of the last 25.

[NK]

Thanks Dave -- kenyans really are 'born to run' very far, very fast.

[Ben Franklin]

" And don't try to pull the 'honest' Lefty-- 'this is Obama's fault' BenF. You bought in to the whole Lefty "Afghanistan's the REAL war" nonsense."

That's a symptom of your inflexible mentoring, NK. I am not in lock-step with this Admin. OTOH, he is not alone in this failure, and honesty from the Right on this fact, is AWOL.

[Sue]

He was 23. So young.

[NK]

BenF-- you're on record as being a critic of 'Bam for no being true enough to his socialist beliefs-- no single payer, no 'windfall taxes on the Rich' true enough. But you're also on record as saying the "Iraq adventure" was a proven failure, civil war and nationstate disinteregration were guarenteed, and that idiot Boosh picked the 'wrong war'. You further argued that once we became serious in Af-Pak, that SW Asia region would turn into Switzerland with Turbans. Iraq is a real nation (with real problems) and Afghanistan remains a mess, becasue it is a mess. Epic fail on both counts BenF, epic fail.

[Rob Crawford]

BenF is also on record saying he wants slavery back.

[Ben Franklin]

"You further argued that once we became serious in Af-Pak, that SW Asia region would turn into Switzerland with Turbans."

Is that a direct quote?

No one will know what alternate reality would replace the current Cluster, had the Players not had a subterranean agenda. If Bush had spent a Trillion bucks in Afghanistan, we would at least have an Iraq stalemate. Even MacChrystal could have gotten a ribbon. Now, we have. like, a couple of bucks left over to bribe the Paks and Pushpins. Now they feel cheated.

[matt]

NK;

Iraq is a nation that is still more of an idea. Kurdistan has very little to do with the rest of the country, and Allawi is at dagger's points with most if the non Iranian aligned factions, which are considerable.

Allawi is to a great extent seen to be doing Teheran's bidding.How this all shakes out is anybody's guess at the moment.

The US troops were the guarantors of a straight game, and now that they are gone, it has become every tribe for itself.

[narciso]

Haquanni , is a nasty piece of work, Coll's Bin Laden bio, indicates he was a CIA asset, once upon a time, and that Bin Laden was loosely affiliated with him, when he first
arrived in Peshawar. He used the war to cultivate his ownership of that part of the Zadran clan, that Times reporter, whose paper subsequently burned the network that helped feree him , (it's as if, they were in South Kosan?) says they were the folks that held him,

[NK]

Matt-- that opinion is not shared by people like Mike Yon who spend alot of time in and around Iraq. Yes, Iraq is a loose federal state (wouldn't you go that way after 20+ years of Sadam's central tyranny?) and 'Bam pulling troops was foolish and destructive, and makes the central government toe the Mullah line because the government can't defend its own territory. But, there is a nation there, and it's not in civil war. Armchair morons like Biden were all wrong.

[Ben Franklin]

"BenF is also on record saying he wants slavery back."

Cites with a link will suffice, Jackwipe.

[Ignatz]

--If Bush had spent a Trillion bucks in Afghanistan, we would at least have an Iraq stalemate.--

We'd have a lot less money certainly but we'd also have flushed it down the same latrine we're currently sitting on.

[narciso]

'The Strongest Tribe' as Bing West dubbed them, you meant Maliki, Allawi can't get any
traction what so ever, naturally that was the company's favorite faction,

[Porchlight]

the wall street journal editorial page. Hugely influential in republican circles. The WSJ-EP supports Paul Ryan in his plan to balance the budget 20 years from now.

So? Sane people everywhere support Paul Ryan. Your usage sounds like the Paulite version of the left's ritual chanting of "Fox News."

[NK]

BenF-- I think the 'alternate reality' is quite clear-- whatever amount of money Bush-Cheney spent on 'development' an Af-Pak would have gone into the pockets of Karzai's cronies, and worse the islamist Pak ISI. Bush-Cheney were wise to understand the realities of Af-Pak, and AQ interrogation, and Iraq-- they got so much of that stuff incredibly right-- I understand you detest them, but that's what actually happened, real reality is complicated enough, I can't deal with alternative realities. Cheers,

[NK]

Ig-- thanks for that brilliant to the point response to BenF. Much better than mine.

[Clarice]

Love me. Love my typing.
Maestro, "All of Me", please.

[Ignatz]

--But, there is a nation there, and it's not in civil war.--

Maybe, but entropy is on a different scale in the ME, and is only reversed by some malignant dictator.
Time is never a friend of the benign in that hellhole.

[See him, feel him. Oops.]

I hear Tupac.
=====

[NK]

History of the ME is on your side Ig, absolutely. One thing though-- how does the Dictator take and hold power in the ME? Fear-- he uses fear of others to take control of a critical mass, and when that wears out, he rules by fear -- OF THE DICTATOR. Iraqis fear the Mullahs, and the Saudis. I think they can use that to hold their loose federal republic together.

[NK]

PS: and the Kurds of course fear the Turks as well.

[narciso]

Nom they fear the Ikwan something slightly different, those tribes of the Ghamdi, Quahtani, Uteibi clans that ravaged Najaf in
Karbala in the 19th Century, and did a passible attempt at same, after the Brits pulled out of Meso,

[Danube of Thought]

"Not right to advocate Americans fighting overseas when you yourself are not willing to join in."

Nonsense.