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April 01, 2012

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Clarice

matt, it's par for the course, PETA does not rescue animals , it kills them and pushes for a total vegan world in which--given the cost and no reward--farmers would simply slaughter their animals and raise no more.

OldTimer

Dear God, another Florida shooting. Maybe Reverend Al and the Panthers can switch their focus to fresh prey.

- LUN

Jack is Back!

DoT,

I just checked my DirectTv FNC channel and its still there. For me its channel 360 and assume it is the same for you.

Jane

Sally Quinn just said that the 15-20% of US residents who think Obama is a Muslim are also afraid of Mormonism.

Where does she get this stuff. Does anyone think 20% of the US think Obama is a Muslim or are afraid of Mormonism?

Jack is Back!

Old Timer,

Down near where Trayvon lived - looks like a 2nd generation Haitian-American gang. But as narciso will confirm lots of black on black gang violence in South Florida. Even in my little county they just sent a 21 year old Crip away for his lifetime.

boatbuilder

I think that Professor Kari is a very close relative of Garth from Wayne's World.

RattlerGator

Manuel Transmission / Clarice -- I may misunderstand the issue but my Droid has no such problem while viewing Clarice's Pieces. Brings up the page easily. My understanding of an iPhone is that you can manually reduce or enlarge the viewing size of your page (my Droid can do this and my recollection is the capability was first available on iPhones).

henry

RG, details will help get the problem fixed. So far iPhone, not Droid. Pieces not other AT articles. Page zoom controls lock with article zoomed so that right left scrolling is required. This happens shortly after initial load. Why? I would look to whatever ads load to see if one is unique to Pieces and unfriendly to iPhones.

Danube of Thought

JiB, I've got FNC back on Channel 360 now. But the DVR recorded that channel from 0800-0900 (Chris Wallace) and what played back was an hour's worth of a graphic saying it had been removed because a dispute that they hoped to resolve soon.

Go figure.

Janet

Sally Quinn just said that the 15-20% of US residents who think Obama is a Muslim are also afraid of Mormonism.

Is that the home wreckin', slept my way onto the WaPo staff, Sally Quinn? The 'Bristol Palin ruined my favorite TV show', Sally Quinn? I wonder what percentage of US residents don't give a rat's ass what she thinks or says...it's bound to be more than 15-20%.

Manuel Transmission

RG, that's the problem in a nutshell. Many sites allow zoom and all 'full browser' sites naturally have that feature. However, some like AT go to a fixed width mode that cannot be adjusted by finger control. A slightly less bothersome feature, like NRO has, forces the no zoom with zero margins so you don't have to scroll, but you feel like you are looking through a too narrow aperture.

sbw

Re: Kari

Why isn’t sociology considered an art rather than a science. It’s as much a wannabe as Political "Science."

Clarice

She does seem to have the goods on someone at the WaPo for them to have made her their religion editor, doesn't it?

Neo

As I said before, I don't believe that you can determine with any certainty the measurements required to make an ID.

There is a huge difference between voice recordings from a "land line" and that which comes from a cell phone. Land lines usually aren't compressed much, if at all, so the voice reconstruction is based almost entirely on the proximity of the caller to the microphone. Cell phones compress the living shit out of speech. Extraneous noises in the background are usually replaced with synthetic noise which mildly match amplitude and even less the spectrum.

I noticed that, while they gave Zimmerman a 48% likelihood, they gave no value for Martin. I bet my next pay check that it is even worse.

Janet

"Over a long career at the Washington Post, Sally Quinn has had more than her share of controversies, sometimes about her personal life (her affair with and later marriage to then-Executive Editor Ben Bradlee)"

and you know Ben Bradlee. Here is a recent video of him.

"Appearing (at least to your correspondent) a bit inebriated, Bradlee puts his arm around Fields and answers her questions, including one about Herman Cain and the allegations against him of sexual harassment.

"I think he had it coming to him," said the former ComPost Editor of Cain."

These people are mansion trash.

Rob Crawford

I noticed that, while they gave Zimmerman a 48% likelihood, they gave no value for Martin. I bet my next pay check that it is even worse.

They said they have no exemplar for Martin, so can't run the test. Which means there's no value for him in existence.

Which is why the reporting was so atrocious -- the probabilities aren't "48% Zimmerman, 52% Martin" but rather, "48%+/-X Zimmerman, 52%+/-X NOT Zimmerman". The set "NOT Zimmerman" includes everyone in the world except him.

narciso

Morning all, don't forget Quinn, pere, helped set up Barry Goldwater, by inviting him to
Berchtesgarden (then an Army base) to cement
the Hitler analogy. TM, the Davalloo case happened in your neck of the woods, and it
was rather open and shut, but this is the hat that Owen hangs himself o

RattlerGator

On the issue of the marches surrounding the Trayvon Martin death -- y'all probably know that any real research into these marches (and the black state legislators & members of Congress present) will likely find heavy involvement from the SEIU.

I can't help but wonder where are the investigative journalists exploring *that* angle.

I'm also EXTREMELY curious about these experts trotted out by the Sentinel. How, precisely, were they vetted and then selected? Does the paper know whether or not they earn a majority of their salary from civil litigation arising from personal injury trial lawyers? Unfortunately, I don't recall any discussion in the article on how these experts were obtained and whether any real due diligence was expended before relying upon their opinion.

Scientific certainty? Count me skeptical.

Jane

I just thought it was an absurd statement.

bgates

Tthe probabilities aren't "48% Zimmerman, 52% Martin"

Percent match can't be directly equated to probability, can it? Imagine text recognition software that recognizes b-[something]-t. That's a 67% match for each of 'bat', 'bet', 'bit', and 'bot', but not a 67% probability for any of them.

narciso

Maybe we were a bit too hasty,

http://owlinvestigations.com/about.html

Rob Crawford

OK, "probability" wasn't the right word. I think the point stands, bgates -- they cannot say ANYTHING about whether or not the voice is Martin's, just how much their software matches the voice up to Zimmerman.

narciso

Seriously, bias seems to nonexistent in the bathysphere


http://sistertoldjah.com/archives/2012/04/01/the-la-times-and-reagan-administration-lawyers/comment-page-1/#comment-897749

Douglasq

AFAIK the American Board of Recorded Evidence is one of the many enterprises of Dr. O'Block, who was nicely profiled in the ABA Journal Feb 2000, beginning on page 44 (viewable on Google Books). The profile begins: "Earning credentials as a forensic expert witness can be relatively easy, if you apply to the American College of
Forensic Examiners"

jimmyk

"All the participants in the arguments spent days in moot courts where smart people anticipated the questioning."

Do they have dumb people too, to anticipate pathetic questions like Kagan's "Wow. Wow."?

boris

Why isn’t sociology considered an art rather than a science.

Richard Feynman would call it cargo cult science.
Skip 5 minutes in for the cult part.

The Text

Later on one of my favorite quotes ...

The first principle is that you must not fool yourself--and you are the easiest person to fool. So you have to be very careful about that. After you've not fooled yourself, it's easy not to fool other scientists. You just have to be honest in a conventional way after that.

Jane

Ain't that the truth Jimmy.

narciso

That was a remarkable performance, in the Vizzini sense of things, when the Justices on your side, have to carry your argument,

Douglas2

Golly, the Easy Voice Biometrics software has only been available since March 7. And the webpage that it is sold on is registered to:
Registrant:
Owen Forensic Services, LLC
Administrative Contact:
Owen, Thomas
Owen Forensic Services, LLC

He has managed to get a lot of free publicity for his new software product with this story!!

Janet

I just thought it was an absurd statement.

Yeah, Jane. Sorry...I didn't mean to jump on your post of her statement. It just kills me how these people are on TV & in the newspapers like they have some special insights & wisdom. Sally Quinn really gets me. Writing the On Faith section in the WaPo....unbelievable. She knows almost nothing about the religions that she writes about. It really gets to me.
She doesn't have to believe, but she should know something about them.

narciso

In that light, Wehner and Kristol to the red courtesy phone;

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/01/world/middleeast/brotherhood-chooses-a-candidate-in-egypt.html?_r=2&nl=todaysheadlines&emc=edit_th_20120401

The Journal had an even more aggregious whitewash, about a month ago.

Frau Aprilejeck

"These people are mansion trash."

Better register that with the patent office, Janet.

Threadkiller

Technology that predates Easy Voice:

http://hotair.com/greenroom/archives/2010/04/04/timeline-anatomy-of-a-tea-party-smear-by-the-democrat-media-complex/

You never needed a recording before.

Gmax

Is Zimmerman's mom still alive? I would propose to play the tape for her. Ever watch the reaction of a cow that hears the wail of its calf, or a momma bear with her cub?

You can have the brand new XZS 3500 Voice Recognition software. I will look his mom in the eyes when the tape is played for her, and I will know.

MaryD

Jane, Whole Foods grind-it-yourself?

Clarice

CNN:Trayvon Martin's parents will ask the U.S. Justice Department to review a local Florida prosecutor's interactions with police investigating the teen's shooting death, the family's lawyer said. The Martin family will send a formal request to the Justice Department Monday, Crump told CNN Sunday.The Justice Department launched an investigation into Martin's death on March 19, but the family is now asking it to look for possible interference by State's Attorney Norm Wolfinger's office with Sanford, Florida, Police Detective Chris Serino, attorney Ben Crump said.

jdw

when figuring out paternity, they don't always need the DNA of two potential fathers in order to rule out one. But since we're about to HANG A GUY FOR MURDER on the basis of voice recognition which may or may not be accurate, I'd want to know how accurate that test actually is.

The other issue, for me, is that I've never been convinced that Zimmerman's actions were based on racism, and yet it's also obvious that black men do receive much less fairness from the judicial system (which needs to improve now!). The problem is, people are mad at the system and taking it out on Zimmerman.

Ignatz

--and yet it's also obvious that black men do receive much less fairness from the judicial system--

Is it?

Gmax

That is not facts in evidence jdw. The reason why young black men get such scrutiny at night? Well lets ask Jessie Jackson? What was his famous quote? Something like when he encounters some young black males on the street at night he crosses the street and eyes them warily? Is that racism coming from a black man, or a recognition of the insanely high crime rate from the cohort?

Gmax

The best I am doing quickly is finding a paraphrase. It was in 1994 and here is the paraphrase:

he has sometimes felt "relieved" to find that the footsteps fol­lowing him on a dark street are those of a white person.

Threadkiller

I wonder if the parents will get the same treatment as Brian Terry's parents.

I really don't wonder.

Mustang0302

"...and yet it's also obvious that black men do receive much less fairness from the judicial system (which needs to improve now!)"

Horseshit.

Jane

She doesn't have to believe, but she should know something about them.

I actually think the person in that job should believe.


Jane, Whole Foods grind-it-yourself?

Yup. Honey roasted - 5 quarts

CNN:Trayvon Martin's parents will ask the U.S. Justice Department to review

Of course they will, and Eric Holder will probably jail more people in Florida than Zimmerman for the sin of not following critical race theory.

Jane

JDW,

The problem we have these days is not the lack of equality in the justice system, but rather the administration's ongoing attempts to atone for the inequality of the past. If you follow Eric Holder you know he applies 2 different standards to blacks and whites. Now that may appeal to those who feel they have been wronged, but while appealing, the only result is racism and resentment.

I can understand the inclination, but one would hope that anyone serving this nation would put the nation before revenge.

This will not end well.

Gmax

I found this while trying to make myself a tad less ignorant on the subject of voice and speech recognition. The bolding I added but otherwise its cut and paste:

The members of the International Association of Forensic Phonetics and Acoustics [IAFPA] have an agreed scale of consistency outcomes linked with levels of distinctiveness that they use to describe their results and opinions within the body of their reports.

Consistency Outcomes - Consistent, Not consistent, No decision
Consistent Outcome - Distinctiveness

The decision that two samples are consistent with having been spoken by the same person does not necessarily entail that they were. Unless the cluster of features leading to the consistency decision is distinctive or unusual, they will be shared by a substantial number of other people in the population. Therefore it is necessary to proceed to evaluate the distinctiveness of the features common to both sets of samples. A convenient way of assigning an overall rating to the distinctiveness of the common features is to locate them on a five-point scale, as follows:

5. Exceptionally distinctive - the possibility of this combination of features
being shared by other speakers is considered to be remote
4. Highly distinctive
3. Distinctive
2. Moderately distinctive
1. Not distinctive

Gmax

BTW Michigan State University has a pretty decent program in biometrics. Its seems voice recognition is way down the list of preferred technologies. Finger prints still are king, and retinal scanning is up and coming based on the current projects they list.

jwest

Assuming that the audio experts aren’t total idiots, I have to believe they, like the majority of Americans, received the bulk of their information from MSNBC and left-wing print/internet sites. It’s the only explanation of how someone could come out with such definitive statements about who it is (or isn’t) on the tape.

It simply defies logic that someone with the resume of Thomas Owen would stake his reputation, the future of his business, the future of his daughter and the risk of relitigating every case he has ever testified in on the results of a 48% match from this cricky software.

Make no mistake about it, the entire case (which will only be tried in the court of public opinion) depends on who it is screaming on the tape. If I thought for one minute it was Trayvon, I would be leading the lynch mob.

Gmax

Which of the two proffered "experts" was quoting something from Mother Jones? Mother Jones is on par with the nuttiness that is on display at Katrina Van Der Heuvel's The Nation. Only slightly less radical that the Worker's World Daily in other words.

jwest

The Mother Jones guy is Ed Primeau at http://www.audioforensicexpert.com/

steve-o

Complaining about a newspaper article that cites to people who have a real job, applying their skills and experience to this issue.

Hmm.

I've seen more productive hobbies.

Clarice

I once had a case involving a forensic document examiner who had testified for the defense in a way that defied all we knew about the case. My boss was sure he was lying, but he seemed sincere to me and had an outstanding reputation. I suggested we spend more time finding out from him what he knew about the documents as to which he had offered an opinion--they were written in another language and he'd been given little time to examine them before he'd offered his opinion and we took his deposition. It turned out defense counsel had lied to him about what the documents were--so that the document he thought was a birth certificate and which he discounted because of the flimsiness of the paper and the sloppy printing was in fact a library card application and so on. He was furious when he realized he'd been made a fool of.
By the time the case got to trial he'd had plenty of time to review the documents, basically testified for us, even winking at us as he'd left the stand.

So, yes, jwest, it's altogether possible the "experts" were operating on less than solid information.
When we got to trial

Frau Aprilejeck

jwest, I just saw Mr. Martin on TV say it was Trayvon's voice "as I said all along."

Gmax

This Primeau guy is giving me a Nancy Grace kind of vibe ( not a compliment ). He says this on his own blog. The "facts" of a guy who reads Mother Jones and not formal voice identification? Not his opinion? OY VEY> Why should we give this any deference or further thought? here:

As an audio forensic expert I want to make clear that this is not formal voice identification and not meant for legal purposes. It is not a statement of my opinion but rather a presentation of facts as I hear them in two particular 911 recordings.

Clarice

Boldiacto

Gmax

Was I about to Larwyn up the thread Clarice?

RichatUF

GMax-

Your "Posted By" is bolded.

jwest-

Make no mistake about it, the entire case (which will only be tried in the court of public opinion) depends on who it is screaming on the tape. If I thought for one minute it was Trayvon, I would be leading the lynch mob.

How so? The injuries to Mr. Zimmerman, the witnesses to the event, and the father's first statement that "he couldn't tell" who was screaming in the tape would seem to militate against it. Please tell me there is more to this story than poor quality cell phone 9-1-1 call recordings and Al Sharpton.

Think I'll lurk until the next Krugman thread pops up.

Gmax

At Expertpages.com I note this on voice ID:

The acoustic environment in many cases can be controlled at the receiving end of speech signal. Shutting off the radio, television or other signal- noise generating devices will reduce or eliminate unwanted background speech or noise. While not always possible, the investigator should at tempt to select a reasonably quiet environment for controlled activities such as drug buys or other illegal operations being investigated. Many times these types of activities are carried out in bars, restaurants, car washes, billiard rooms and the like, and the investigator cannot always dictate the location.

It may require the recording of telephone conversations or face-to-face encounters under a variety of acoustic conditions in which someone is wearing a body recorder or transmitting the conversation via radio frequency to a remote location. Unfortunately, in many cases the investigators cannot control the acoustic environment. In situations involving an adverse environment, investigators should use high technology stereo equipment to optimize recording capability.

The attempt to produce samples as parallel to the unknown as possible actually assists the examiner in his task because speaker variables are reduced to a minimum. Numerous studies have been conducted that indicate very reliable decisions can be made by trained professional examiners when samples are obtained in the manner described.

Voice ID it said has been used in 150-200 cases. That is pretty low.

Gmax

Does it seem to anyone that any of the common sense guidelines have been followed at all? It looks like there is background noise, low quality equipment and high variability in the speaker variables ( screaming under duress v calm discussion ). YMMV

AC

"I'm trying to come up with a scenario where it makes sense for Martin to be screaming for help, and coming up empty. "

Um, how about running from a guy in a car with a gun, hiding, being found?

Not a lot of critical thinking going on here..... But I guess even this audience finds advertisers.

Gmax

Your "Posted By" is bolded.

That is controlled by whether or not you choose to put a webpage down in your ID page. It has nothing to do with the use of HTML in the body.

GW

Is this the same tape that NBC doctored and edited?

So they have experts studying this Zimmerman Travon tape for what really happened and it's big news .. could be used in court.... yet when Sheriff Joe with his criminal experts look at the presidents BC it is not even carried any of the major news networks. Why is that?

Rob Crawford

Um, how about running from a guy in a car with a gun, hiding, being found?

None of that happened.

Ignatz

--Not a lot of critical thinking going on here..... But I guess even this audience finds advertisers.--

If by 'critical' you mean 'stupid' then you're correct, with a couple of recent notable exceptions.

jwest

RichatUF,

If Trayvon is the one screaming, it means that Zimmerman is a cold-blooded killer who held a gun on a defenseless child while he begged for someone to help him stop the White Hispanic racist from pulling the trigger.

Of course, this didn’t happen. The witnesses, Zimmerman’s statement about yelling for help, his injuries and all the other circumstances lead anyone with logic and reason to believe Trayvon was on top of Zimmerman beating him while Zimmerman screamed for help.

The trouble is, the pro-Trayvon forces have seized the narrative now with these two voice recognition “experts” and it will be next to impossible to turn things back around.

xbradtc

If Trayvon is the one screaming, it means that Zimmerman is a cold-blooded killer who held a gun on a defenseless child while he begged for someone to help him stop the White Hispanic racist from pulling the trigger.

I suppose it is possible Martin was screaming while in a killing rage, right up until George shot him. But unlikely.

As noted, there's a heck of a lot more statements out there corroborating George's version of events than contradicting it.

Um, how about running from a guy in a car with a gun, hiding, being found?

None of that happened.

Actually, Rob, there's the rub. We don't KNOW what happened. All we have is George's statement. It could well have happened just that way. It's just that there isn't a single shred of evidence to support it. Which, you know, would make a conviction awfully hard to come by.

Gmax

Usually is a guy is lying out his @ss, his story starts to come apart. For instance, a witness he does not know gives testimony of what he saw which contradicts in some meaningful way. Or the cell phone records evidence that does not support his statement. None of that happened here so far, and in fact John who has no idea what story Zimmerman has told immediately gives his version which supports Zimmerman.

He says he is screaming in his testimony, and sure enough the recording supports it.

It seems to me, this comes down to gun haters and race pimpers who dont want to be confused by the what is in evidence.

RichatUF

We don't KNOW what happened. All we have is George's statement.

Actually we do because we have evidence outside of Mr. Zimmerman's statements.

The trouble is, the pro-Trayvon forces have seized the narrative now with these two voice recognition “experts” and it will be next to impossible to turn things back around.

Not sure. The msm has been backing away from other parts of the St. Trayvon narrative. I just don't see why the media and the administration would want to stir up a pot of trouble in Central Florida heading into the summer. Just me.

Now to lurk.

Jim Rhoads a/k/a vjnjagvet

I propose an exercise. Assume you are the prosecutor given the task of obtaining a conviction of George Zimmerman. You are presented with the evidence that TM has so ably put together and other “facts” proffered by Rev. Al and his minions, MSNBC, CNN, the Orlando Sentinel, etc. You are also presented with the facts enumerated by Sylvia, BB, Dublin Dave, KK and other visitors to this site who are attempting to persuade you that GZ is guilty of murder.

Here are the statutes you are working with:

(1) The unlawful killing of a human being, when perpetrated by any act imminently dangerous to another and evincing a depraved mind regardless of human life, although without any premeditated design to effect the death of any particular individual, is murder in the second degree and constitutes a felony of the first degree, punishable by imprisonment for a term of years not exceeding life or as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.

(2) The killing of a human being by the act, procurement, or culpable negligence of another, without lawful justification according to the provisions of chapter 776 and in cases in which such killing shall not be excusable homicide or murder, according to the provisions of this chapter, is manslaughter, a felony of the second degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.

(3) The use of deadly force is justifiable when a person is resisting any attempt to murder such person or to commit any felony upon him or her or upon or in any dwelling house in which such person shall be.

(4) A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.

List the admissible evidence, including testimony of live withnesses, you will submit to a grand jury to procure an indictment of GZ.

I will donate $25.00 to the favorite charity of anyone who can make out such a case based on the evidence we now know of.

Jane

Let's pretend that everything the Martin people say is true. It happened exactly how they say.

How are you gonna prove it?

jdw

http://sistertoldjah.com/archives/2012/03/31/trayvon-videoscreencap-shows-laceration-to-george-zimmermans-head/

Rob Crawford

Actually, Rob, there's the rub. We don't KNOW what happened.

Well, we know lots if things didn't happen, because there is no evidence for them having happened.

Not even St. Trayvon(tm) Of The Skittles' own girlfriend claims he was chased. Or that he hid. Or that he was screaming.

There is no indication of any of that in the 911 calls, either.

Instead we have Zimmerman saying he was screaming for help, and witnesses saying someone was screaming, and one even saying it was for help. We have a poor recording of screams.

We have Zimmerman saying he was knocked to the ground, pinned, and was beaten further. We have witnesses saying there were two people struggling, and the description of the one on the bottom matches Zimmerman.

We have Zimmerman saying he was being beaten and feared for his life. We have police reports saying he was injured. There are likely paramedic reports to that effect, as well.

No, we don't know exactly what happened. But we do know quite a bit about what didn't happen.

Another example -- the family lawyers released animations "recreating" the shooting that showed St. Trayvon (tm) OTS being shot in the back. While you and I do not have the information to rebut that, it's clear that the police and prosecutors do (if he had been, I'm sure Zimmerman would have been charged, if only to have to convince a jury why he feared for his life from someone he was behind). So that's another version of the events we can eliminate.

And, again, it's amazing to me how the lynch mob requires Zimmerman to be evil incarnate.

xbradtc

Actually we do because we have evidence outside of Mr. Zimmerman's statements.

We have strong evidence that supports George's statements, but we don't have any statements or other evidence that corroborates his statement about how the initial contact between George and Martin transpired. I tend to believe George, since all other evidence to date has fit his story, and there is none to contradict it. But the fact is, for the initial contact between the two, we only have his word for it.

But we live in an imperfect world. I just don't see any evidence that would support an indictment, let alone a conviction.

jdw

I suppose it is possible Martin was screaming while in a killing rage, right up until George shot him. But unlikely.

Actually I think that is the more likely scenario, if one also notices that Treyvon had the ability, as a faster runner, to run away from Zimmerman. Remember, according to the 911 tape, at one point Z lost visual sight of T. So Treyvon was long gone and could have stayed long gone.

The only thing which explains Zimmerman being able to catch up with a faster runner, is if Treyvone deliberately came back to confront Zimmerman. And to do so, he would have to be angry.

myiq2xu

Another example -- the family lawyers released animations "recreating" the shooting that showed St. Trayvon (tm) OTS being shot in the back.

Unfortunately for them, the physical evidence shows an entry wound in the front.

Jane

Jim,

Your timing is impeccable!

Jim Rhoads a/k/a vjnjagvet

As usual, Jane, you made the point far more pithily.

Jim Rhoads a/k/a vjnjagvet

As those of us who have been prosecutors know, every fact or item of evidence that is inadmissible is of absolutely no value in achieving a conviction that will stand up on appeal and habeas corpus litigation. Even Law and Order makes that point over than over.

Nancy Grace on the other hand -- not so much. Of course the GA Supreme Court was not amused by her attempts to appeal to the passions of the jury.

Jack is Back!

Jim Rhoads,

Angela Corey is pretty competent and hasn't been overtly political but she has a big, complicated, highly emotional case going on in Jax with a 12 yr old accused of murdering his 2 yr old brother. I don' t think she needs or wants 2 questionable prosecutions.

Extraneus

It simply defies logic that someone with the resume of Thomas Owen would stake his reputation, the future of his business, the future of his daughter and the risk of relitigating every case he has ever testified in on the results of a 48% match from this cricky software.

I agree it's hard to understand if his scientific credibility is more important to him than his fee, but surely there's a lucrative market for experts who'll testify for the side whose client is clearly guilty. He could even convince himself he's like a lawyer who's duty-bound to argue for his client regardless of whether he believes him. Even OJ had Barry Scheck, and surely that trial's outcome raised his stock value.

Mustang0302

OT/Non-A.F. -

Lauren Scruggs rejected a $200K settlement offer from the aircraft owner-operator's insurance company.

xbradtc

Mustang, one hopes a court would tell her she gets nothing. It's her own damn fault. Shell made a good faith effort to settle. I feel bad for her, but then, I feel bad for a lot of people that do stupid things. Doesn't mean I think others should pay out the ass for it.

narciso

About halfway down a truly 'thumbsucking' piece in my fishwrap by Fred Grimm, where he points out that the folks in Sanford, don't recognize their town in the news, he has several experts saying some miscommunications from law enforcement are involved, like the disincentive to consider prosecuting Zimmerman, because of SYG, then he starts on the 'narrative' and then I get a 'Howard Beale,' sensation, how about the truth, Fred, and you're not going to get the truthvia Sharpton, and regretably Crump,
when 9/11 calls are 'dowdified, when police
video is altered, when halos are painted on one side, and horns on the other, in this tragic altercation,

Appalled

Observations:

1. If I were one of Obama's strategists, I would be very happy this Trayvon stuff is going on. This inflames my base constiuency, and encourages turnout from the folks I know are going to vote for me. And the longer folks on the conservative side talk about this, raise points, come up with scary Trayvon picures, the happier I would be. Because that enables the left side of the media to prolong this controversy, and the left talking heads to complain about blaming the victim. If I were one of Romney's or Santorum's advisers, I would be praying to get this off the front page, and blasting the media's immaturity in its insistance that an unfortunate killing is a significant national issue.

2. I like playing Sherlock Holmes as much as anyone. But every one of these stories being hashed through the 24 hour media makes it harder to find an unpolluted jury pool and increases the "arrest him regardless" pressure that Zimmmerman's defense attorney will use to get him off in an appeal of any jury's decision. (TM, do what you want to do. I am more concerned with the NBCABCCBSCNN consortium).

3. The mystery in this case -- the great unknown -- is why Zimmerman was not charged and booked. It's a legitimate issue (and I think Trayvon's parents call to get the DoJ involved is not unreasonable). It's also one that it would be irresponsibnle to answer right now.

4. Obama -- if he were the statesman his campaign wants us to think he is -- would speak for due process of law right now, and against the lynch mob atmosphere of his allies and the press. Wonder if he can bring himself to do it? It did not do much for him, when he took a similar cool down stance after Gabby Giffords was shot, so my guess is that he won't.

5. This case does not prove a darn thing about race relations nationwide. It just proves that the media has no template to talk about it that reflects the nationwide reality of how the races deal with each other, or self-segregate.

Mustang0302

xbradtc...

Pilot-in-command's responsibility. He was hot-seating passengers, at night, without ground guides, rather than simply shutting down and restarting for each hop. Simple. Cheap. Safe.

Another young lady was nearly killed a couple of years ago after her pilot asked her to climb out of a running aircraft to pull a nosewheel chock, a couple of feet aft of the propeller arc...he was cleaned out, and rightfully so.

I never assume my passengers can safely move around aircraft on a flight line. My passengers are my responsibility.

Jane

4. Obama -- if he were the statesman his campaign wants us to think he is -- would speak for due process of law right now, and against the lynch mob atmosphere of his allies and the press. Wonder if he can bring himself to do it?

Appalled,

I think Obama ginned this up to begin with to reap the advantages you talk about with a question planted to ABC news. I suspect due process would never occur to him.

narciso

He did this on the second anniversary of the passage of Obamacare, Sanford is possibly one of the least segregated communities in American, it doesn't matter, because the 'narrative' is paramount, like the Gitmo
detainee, right before he blows up a barracks,

Ignatz

--3. The mystery in this case -- the great unknown -- is why Zimmerman was not charged and booked.--

With what we know there is no great mystery here; there is insufficient evidence to book and charge him. His story was confirmed by the physical evidence and witnesses and if true is a pretty clear case of self defense.
Now, if there is a bunch of contrary evidence that we don't know about there might be a mystery but as of now, the mystery to me is why people keep saying he should have been charged.

narciso

At least some of the commenters aren't buying
it,

http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/31/2724962/how-a-small-town-mismanaged-a.html

Jack is Back!

Jane,

NBC

boris

"the longer folks on the conservative side talk about this, raise points, come up with scary Trayvon picures, the happier [Obama] would be"

Doubt conservative talk is what's driving the media frenzy. With Duke, TANG and swiftboaters conservatives were able to derail it.

Porchlight

We have strong evidence that supports George's statements, but we don't have any statements or other evidence that corroborates his statement about how the initial contact between George and Martin transpired.

To my mind, since the evidence we do have supports Zimmerman's statements thus far, his statement about the initial contact is likely to be true as well.

My husband and I got in a big argument about it this afternoon. He's a big 2nd Amendment guy, but he says it's all Zimmerman's fault for "chasing" Trayvon in the first place, and that Zimmerman is "giving CCW a bad name." He was ill-informed on a lot of the facts, however, since he gets his news from the MSM and HuffPo.

boatbuilder

As a civil trial lawyer I can tell you that the slicker the website the more likely the "expert" is a gun for hire. I note that Mr. Owen has a glossy website featuring most prominently his attractive blonde daughter. He also prominently features a testimonial from "Judge Stackhouse [no first name?] of the New York Supreme Court."
Judges are not, in my experience, in the business of providing testimonials, and in NY the "Supreme Court" is actually the lowest, trial level court. In 26 years of trial work I have never had occasion to use a voice expert, and I strongly suspect that the market for such "experts" is extremely limited. I am guessing that Mr. Owen is not only the President of the American Board of Forensic Evidence but one of its founding members and controlling members. And he just happens to be selling software. Imagine my surprise.
In short--the man is trolling for business.

steve

Audio experts? We don't need no stinkin audio experts!

Let's use common sense to sort things out. In a fight, the guy winning isn't likely to be the one yelling for help. And a guy who is winning a fistfight is unlikely to feel the need to pull out a gun and shoot the guy he's pounding on.

So... presuming that the guy yelling for help is the guy losing the fight, if Martin was the screamer, then that meant Zimmerman had the upper hand and was pounding on Martin... only to stop beating on Martin to pull out his gun and shoot? This makes no sense.

It only makes sense the other way. I think, Zimmerman was the one getting beaten on.... he was yelling for help... and while he was getting beaten, he pulled out his gun and shot Martin.

What other scenario makes sense?

myiq2xu

As those of us who have been prosecutors know, every fact or item of evidence that is inadmissible is of absolutely no value in achieving a conviction that will stand up on appeal and habeas corpus litigation. Even Law and Order makes that point over than over.

Exactly. Trials are about what can be proved with evidence. A lot of what we have been hearing will never make it into the courtroom (assuming the case ever gets there)

Threadkiller

Shot 'em thru the heart and your to blame, you give ccw a bad name.

Bad name...

xbradtc

Mustang, I agree with your ideas as to the responsibility of the PiC. Apparently, so does his insurance company. But in an effort to get more money, the plaintiff's attorneys are arguing that she wasn't a passenger at the time of the accident. To which I say, then it isn't the pilot's responsibility at all then. You can't have it both ways.

Porchlight

I am guessing that Mr. Owen is not only the President of the American Board of Forensic Evidence but one of its founding members and controlling members.

Good insights, boatbuilder. Owen might be its only member, if it even exists. The following search generates exactly one Google result:

"American Board of Forensic Evidence" -zimmerman -owen

I excluded Zimmerman to find results prior to this case, and excluded Owen on the basis that if the ABFE was a real organization, it should generate hits that don't mention its president.

narciso

I was struck how neither Primeau nor Owens, have any cites of major cases they worked on,
the Davalloo case, which was pretty open and shut it seems, but the Stanford police didn't think so,

Sara (Pal2Pal)

Watching CSPAN BookTV and Charles Sykes talk about his book: A NATIONAL OF MOOCHERS America's Addiction to Getting Something for Nothing. I think I'm in love.

Sara (Pal2Pal)

Sheesh! NATIONAL = NATION

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