The NY Times Quietly Takes Its Thumb Off The Scale Of Justice

Either the NY Times needs to tear out the front page or they have just delivered an epic fail.  In either case, they have delivered a tilt to the scales of justice.

In a long attempt to detail the night of the Trayvon Martin killing they include this description of the fatal scuffle:

However it started, witnesses described to the 911 dispatcher what resulted: the neighborhood watch coordinator, 5-foot-9 and 170 pounds, and the visitor, 6-foot-1 and 150, wrestling on the ground.

To my knowledge nobody anywhere has ever suggested that Zimmerman weighed 170 pounds [His friend did on March 27!].  I would say that the low bid I have seen is 220, although some people did remark that he looked smaller than they expected in the infamous ABC video taken the night he was brought in.

Trayvon Martin is consistently described as 140 lbs, although the police report had him at 160.  The Sanford PD initial police report listed a weight for Martin but not Zimmerman; in retrospect, that will rank as one of the biggest blunders of their investigation.

I am serious - if the Times is correctly telling us that Zimmerman was roughly Martin's size, that changes the whole theme of the scary large man stalking the overmatched boy.  Do I need links to document how widespread that meme is?  If the Times doesn't correct this I'll link up [See below].

And needless to say, there has been a certain puzzlement about why a 140 pounder would initiate an assault on a 240 pounder.  Somehow, a surprise attack by a 150 pounder on a 170 pounder seems a lot more plausible.  Similarly, there has been skepticism abut how such a large man could really have feared for his life in a scuffle with the much smaller Martin.  Again, one has a newfound sympathy for the notion that Zimmerman may really have been in trouble.

Let's hand the mike to Charles Blow of the Times, from Mar 25:

To believe Zimmerman’s [self-defense] scenario, you have to believe that Trayvon, an unarmed boy, a boy so thin that people called him Slimm, a boy whose mother said that he had not had a fight since he was a preschooler, chose that night and that man to attack. You have to believe that Trayvon chose to attack a man who outweighed him by 100 pounds and who, according to the Sanford police, was wearing his gun in a holster. You have to believe that Trayvon chose to attack even though he was less than a hundred yards from the safety of the home where he was staying.

This is possible, but hardly sounds plausible.

The match-up seems more plausible now.  (The Scary Gun was concealed, so let's skip that.)

The paper of record.  How could they have a typo like this in a story like this?  Or, how could they not realize the news value of that information?

I may subscribe again just so I can cancel twice.

MORE NARRATIVE FAIL: A neighbor saw George the next day, bandaged and bruised.

POKING AROUND: I am not the only one late to this party, but maybe the Times has this right - commenters here at Newsbusters were talking about Zimmerman at 170 four days ago.  As did 'Steve', commenting at CNN two days ago.  If the Times stands by this number, words will fail me.

THE FRIEND MAY HAVE BEEN RIGHT:  March 27, WKMG Local 6, Orlando:

Oliver: "That's a perfect example of all the misinformation that is out there. Based upon his 2005 arrest, a mug shot says he weights 250 pounds and that doesn't say he is 5 feet, 8 inches and 170 pounds.

Oliver: "G is not a large man, he was back then, but not now."

Local 6: "You seem like you are defensive of his appearance."

Oliver:  "It's not his appearance it is the information and the accuracy of everything that we have heard from the very beginning characterizing him as white, his size his weight."

DOWN THE MEMORY HOLE:

The Times, March 16 2012:

“Everybody is outraged,” said Tracy Martin, Trayvon’s father. “There is no justice in this. The public is outraged because my son only had snacks in his pocket, no weapon whatsoever, not even a fingernail file. For him to be murdered by someone who weighs more than 100 pounds than him, more than 10 years older than him, this is an outrage.”

I actually think the media just rode the horse that the father saddled up. That's my guess, anyway.

The Atlantic has been a key source throughout this story; here is Andrew Cohen, Mar 21:

My colleagues James Fallows and Ta-Nehisi Coates have written extensively about the senseless killing of Trayvon Martin, an unarmed black 17-year-old, who was shot to death last month in a Florida neighborhood by its "watch captain." Martin, who weighed 100 pounds less than the older man who killed him, was walking home alone in the rain from a convenience store with a bag of Skittles and an iced tea. Please keep reading Jim and Ta-Nehisi for their insights into this story.

And here is Ta Nehesi Coates, who I have found to be admirably sensible and restrained, wondering on March 30 what, if anything, the prying into Trayvon Martin's life would reveal:

How does any of this help us understand his killing at the hands of by George Zimmerman?

It does not--unless you believe that the fact that Martin once gave a middle finger to a camera somehow proves that he is the sort of person who would saunter up to a man who outweighs by nearly 100 pounds, summon the powers of Thor, deck the man with one-shot, and stove him against concrete. We do not draw such conclusions from most teenagers, or even most people.

The Village Voice, Mar 26:

There has been some dispute about what preceded the killing: An unnamed witness claims the 140-lb. Martin physically attacked the 240-lb. Zimmerman; no one knows for sure whether this happened before or after Martin saw the stranger coming at him with a gun.

The Philly Post, Mar 20:

A Racist Criminal Killed Trayvon Martin

On the evening of February 26th, in Sanford, Florida, 20 miles north of Orlando, three witnesses said they heard the 140-pound, 17-year-old Trayvon cry for help and then heard a sequence of sounds that contradict what 240-pound, 28-year-old George Zimmerman says happened.

ABC News, Mar 18:

Witnesses told ABC News a fistfight broke out and, at one point, Zimmerman, who outweighed Martin by more than 100 pounds, was on the ground and that Martin was on top.

Here is CBS News on March 30, from a story titled "Trayvon Martin shooting: What do we know?", with a lower bid:

How do Trayvon Martin and George Zimmerman compare in terms of body size?

There is some inconsistency in reports of Martin and Zimmerman's height and weight. In the original police report, Martin is described as being 6' tall and weighing 160 pounds. But his family told CBS News that he was 6' 2" and between 140-150 pounds. Zimmerman is described in the police report as standing 5' 9" tall, with no weight listed. In a 2005 police report, Zimmerman's ex-fiance describes him as 5' 7" and according to the Miami Herald he weighs about 200 pounds.

A quick glance through the Times archives leaves me thinking that, aside from that fateful quote from Mar 16, they ducked the weight question.  Well, they need to take a stand now.

I DEMAND AN INVESTIGATION!  Also in the Times:

Here is what Robert Zimmerman said is his son’s explanation: Trayvon was on top, punching and slamming his head into the paved sidewalk. When nobody answered his calls for help, he tried to slide onto the grass. But in doing so, the holstered gun in his waistband became visible.

“It is a little bit cloudy,” the father said. “But George believes Trayvon saw the pistol, was going to get it, and said: ‘You are going to die tonight.’ Shortly after that, George drew the pistol and shot him.”

The police have said that this account, at least in its broadest outlines, is backed up by witnesses, most of whom have not spoken publicly.

The idea that witnesses can support the unpopular Zimmerman and shield their identity from the Tweeting mob is un-American, right?

That said, blindly trusting authority is not American either.  Hence, our representative democracy, complete with multiple ongoing investigations.

THE DIORAMA IS NOT THE TERRITORY:  The NY Times presents a very cool interactive multi-page 3D rendition of the Retreat at Twin Lakes.

It tells essentially the same story as this now-lame GoogleMaps aerial view I posted last week.  We agree on the spot of the fatal shooting and Trayvon Martin's final destination (props to Team JOM and and a 'danke' to holger danske).  The Times marks the mailboxes (mentioned in the 911 call) as next to the clubhouse, as we had inferred.  Thay also have found the 7-Eleven on 1125 Rinehart Rd.

The Times adds Zimmerman's house, which raises a new question about his driving route to the Target for groceries.  His most direct route to the main entrance seems to have him overtaking Martin from behind.  Which suggests what?  That he followed along slowly behind him?

A more circuitous route has Zimmerman up Twin Trees Lane, so Martin would have crossed his path from in front.  One wonders which direction his car was parked when it was finally recovered.  This is one more thing to puzzle over about Zimmerman's story.

Per Google Maps the Target is about 1.2 miles away, in the same direction as the 7-Eleven, so leaving by the main gate makes sense.

One is left wondering about street lights and the more variable back porch lights.  Sunset was at 6:23 PM and we were a few days from a half moon on a rainy night; witnesses agree it was dark by 7 PM, but a reporter walking the area might find areas of darkness and illumination.  And we are always looking for illumination.

WHO FANNED THE FLAMES?  Cut back to the Times quote from March 16 and view it from the perspective of Mr. Martin:

“Everybody is outraged,” said Tracy Martin, Trayvon’s father. “There is no justice in this. The public is outraged because my son only had snacks in his pocket, no weapon whatsoever, not even a fingernail file. For him to be murdered by someone who weighs more than 100 pounds than him, more than 10 years older than him, this is an outrage.”

His son is dead, his family is distraught, to him the police story of self-defense reeks of BS, and why not - that 100 pound differential suggests a level of aggressiveness that he might have correctly believed Trayvon did not possess.

But my question is, where did he get the idea of that weight differential?  I don't think he was pounding ourt searches on Google.  I doubt the police interviewers passed that on.

But - PURE SPECULATION ALERT - Ben Crump and his team surely have all sorts of resources, possibly including access to Florida's DMV driver's licenses.  Maybe in the course of researching George Zimmerman they learned from an old license that he weighed 220, or 240, or thereabouts (IIRC Zimmerman has slimmed down from a few years back).  [Zimmerman friend Joe Oliver says the weight came from a 2005 arrest report, which takes that speculation south.]

They pass the bad intel to dad, which winds him up; he passes it to the country, which winds us up; and now here we are.  A little bit more PR effort earlier by the Sanford cops, or bit of reporting at any time by our Big Media, would have been welcome. Instead, a bunch of reporters imagining themselves as Freedom Riders battling Bull Connor have brought us to the point that even the Times seems to be worried that they have gone too far.

 

Comments

[JeffC]

I'm sorry but at 6'2" with the arms he's showing in his tat pictures Martin weights more than 150 ... way more ...

[George]

There's no way that Zimmerman was 220 lbs; that weight would put him at a BMI of 32.5, into obese territory. The man we see on the police tape is no where near obese, 170 lbs. (BMI of 25, the line between normal/overweight) seems a much better fit.

The whole caricature of a huge man taking on a tiny teen has been farcical from the start, based on the outdated photos of Trayvon, purporting to show him as a little kid. The latest photos of him show him to be easily 6 feet tall and well on his way to becoming a man.

[Sara (Pal2Pal)]

Macsmind a few days ago was saying Trayvon was 180. I think that came from the paramedic report he somehow has access to, but I'm not positive on that, since he seems to have an inside source at the police dept. as well.

Where is the coroner's report anyway? What is taking so long on that?

[podesta]

Seems Martin may have been hiding because he knew he was being followed. Zimmerman happens upon him, asks him what he is doing and Martin responds,"Why are you following me?" Zimmerman gets defensive and manly and gets in Martin's face. Martin decks Zimmerman. Zimmerman falls, Martin gets on top of him and is thrown off. Zimmerman pulls a gun. Martin starts screaming for his life because he believes he is about to be shot. Zimmerman freaks (history of freaking out), thinks I need to shut this kid up, he's upsetting me terribly and guns him down. Paces back and forth and thinks, what just happened? All conjecture, of course. But someone on their back being pummeled would have a difficult time yelling so loud. Someone on their feet with a gun in their face would scream for help. Zimmerman had no blood on his shirt. This gunshot seems to have occured at a distance, with both individuals standing.

[Sara (Pal2Pal)]

Podesta: Please come back into this dimension and reality before posting such drivel.

[podesta]

Sara. It's a theory. In this dimension, people are allowed to posit scenarios. Sorry if your delicate sensibilities were offended. Besides, I think it's a likely scenario.

[George]

On a tangent, I see the funeral director and other saying that Martin had no bruises and therefore could not have been in a fight. Well, I'm no doctor or physician, but from what I know about the human body, a dead body wouldn't bruise. A bruise is caused by blood flowing to an area that has experienced trauma. If someone is dead, the blood has stopped flowing, so you'd think that no bruise would be produced.

Same thing goes for Mr. Zimmerman. The police tape is from about 30-40 minutes after the incident, there's no way he would be bruising or swelling anywhere in that amount of time. I've been hit in the eye and nose before, and it took many hours before the swelling and bruising became apparent.

A lot of the debate about the case reminds me of discussing with Truthers - they are basing their views on illogical and ignorant evaluation of the evidence. This also pertains to the audio analysis, where they've "discounted" Zimmerman as the screamer, yet no one in the public knows how Trayvon sounded like. There has also not been any credible theory as to why Trayvon would be screaming in the manner heard on the tape, for at least 40 seconds before the gunshot.

podesta gave it a nice try, but it doesn't make sense for Martin to be screaming help for 40+ seconds in that scenario. You also have to have a fairly negative view of Zimmerman to believe that he would just stand there holding Martin for 40+ seconds and shoot him "to shut him up".

Also, I think it's been established already that the gunshot happened at point blank range.

The only logical explanation I can fathom from the available evidence is:

- Martin starts running home (as Zimmerman told the phone operator)
- Zimmerman follows after him to find out what he's up to
- Martin sees Zimmerman following behind him, confronts him and asks him what his problem is
- Zimmerman asks him what he's up to
- Martin, suspended from school and probably not having a good time, gets annoyed with Zimmerman
- Martin impulsively decides to be a tough guy, decides to show this punk not to mess with him
- Martin sucker-punches Zimmerman and knocks him down, gets on top to finish the job
- Zimmerman starts screaming for help, tries to get Martin off of him
- After no one responds to his pleas for help, and still getting beat up, Zimmerman pulls out his gun and shoots Martin
- Martin dies instantly from a shot to the chest, drops face down on the ground, Zimmerman gets up and starts pacing around in shock

To me this sounds like the logical course of events from what we know. It's tragic because both of them made mistakes that could have been avoided. Zimmerman shouldn't have followed Martin; Martin shouldn't have violently confronted Zimmerman; Zimmerman shouldn't have been so quick to use lethal force.

And in the end? It's not Zimmerman's fault that he wasn't arrested and charged with manslaughter. The stand-your-ground law made it impossible for the police to charge him, with the facts as they are. That's not Zimmerman's fault. At this point Zimmerman must almost want to be arrested and tried for manslaughter just to get everyone off his back.

Sad situation.

[Interested]

NYT also rebuts the story that Trayvon was left sitting for three days in the morgue before the family was contacted.

[Sara (Pal2Pal)]

I posted this in the other thread and repeating it here because of the remarks about Zimmerman being injury free.

The neighbor is talking for the first time about what he saw on George Zimmerman's face less than 24-hours after Zimmerman shot and killed Trayvon Martin.

"I saw George. He was banged up. His head had two big bandages, that weren't flat, had a bump on them," the neighbor, who did not want to be identified, said.

He described where the injuries were.

"I seen him have a big bandage on his nose and his nose swollen. On the side, where his eyes were at, it was swollen," he said.

He points out exactly where on a picture.

"I seen the bandage right here, and this side of his nose and this side of his nose was swollen.

The surveillance video was released by Sanford police of Zimmerman when he was brought in for questioning after the shooting. Bruises and bandages aren't visible, but you can see an officer looking at the back of his head.

"Once you get into a fight you don't show bruises that day, it shows the next day," he said.

The neighbor says Zimmerman had to have acted in self-defense.

"I think something happened that night where he had to defend himself," the neighbor said.

He says that the voice heard screaming on the 911 call is that of George Zimmerman.

"I hear his voice every single day, I talk to him every single day," he said.

He says the case has haunted him.

"I've been thinking about it morning noon and night ever since I seen the bandages on him," he said.

He believes Zimmerman was defending his life, and that's why he's defending Zimmerman now. He says he doesn't believe race played a role in what happened.

"I don't think race is involved at all, because I've seen black, African-American folks come to George's house," he said.

The neighbor says he's tired of Zimmerman being portrayed as the bad guy.

"Everyone needs to let the justice system take its course before rushing to judgment," he said.

[podesta]

George. Good analysis and it may well have happened that way. But I do think it is believable that Martin was screaming because he was being held at gunpoint. Any sensible person would scream "Help me!" repeatedly if he felt he was going to be shot. And if Martin got no response when screaming for help he may have approached Zimmerman and that is when he was killed. I hope the voice analysis can be conclusive. That will tell the tale.

[daddy]

Maybe Zim's been doing the Taube's Diet.

[Sara (Pal2Pal)]

Granny says: "Shoot him in his toodles."

[podesta]

Sara. What's your point? Old lady shoots a gun. In a Trayvon Martin thread. You reveal yourself.

[bgates]

Zimmerman had no blood on his shirt that could be seen in the cell phone video of the police security camera video that was taken an hour after the paramedics attended to Zimmerman. There's really no reason to think he had any injuries at all, besides his statement, the statements of other people who saw him afterwards, and the police report.

[Navillus]

1. What's the most obvious thing to yell when being menaced with a gun? "DON"T SHOOT!" This phrase appears nowhere, either on witness statements or any 911 background audio. Like Sherlock Holmes' dog that didn't bark, the absence of this phrase implies GZ was doing the yelling.
2. GZ's father stated that the gun was exposed when GZ moved from the sidewalk to the grass to protect his skull. It would be helpful to know where on the waistband GZ was carrying his pistol. The Appendix Inside the Waistband (AIWB) holster position involves placing the holster left or right of the belt buckle (10-11 or 1-2 o'clock if the buckle is 12 o'clock) where the pistol is completely visible from the front once the cover garment (shirt, sweater, etc.) is lifted. Other positions (3 o'clock, 4, etc.) would be harder for TM to see. If the cops know GZ was carrying AIWB, it strengthens his story that TM was going for his gun after it got exposed in the fight & helps explain why GZ escalated the fight after over a minute of fighting w/o drawing his gun. Anybody know? AFAIK, the police report is mute on this detail.

[Tom Maguire]

No visible blood on a red shirt. Compelling!

As a reality check just to help out tired old Tom early on a Monday morning - that Times story is either hilariously wrong, or huge, yes? A 140 pounder attacking a 240 pounder is far less plausible than a 150 pounder attacking a 170 pounder? And it has not been common knowledge that Zimmerman weighed well less than 240, right?

I am so shocked by their casual treatment of that that I am questioning my grip here.

If anyone has links to earlier stories of the new, slimmed down Zim, that would be great.

[podesta]

Navillus. That is a very good point. If someone was holding a gun on me, I would yell, "Don't shoot!" But Martin may have been scared enough to scream, "Help me!" The audio voice is pretty desperate so any reaction would be understandable, especially if there was a struggle.

[sk]

http://www.clickorlando.com/news/Friend-George-Zimmerman-scared-for-his-life/-/1637132/9722180/-/e55273z/-/index.html

[George]

podesta,

"But I do think it is believable that Martin was screaming because he was being held at gunpoint. Any sensible person would scream "Help me!" repeatedly if he felt he was going to be shot. And if Martin got no response when screaming for help he may have approached Zimmerman and that is when he was killed. I hope the voice analysis can be conclusive. That will tell the tale."

Sorry, but this makes no sense. Numerous independent witnesses have said that they were fighting. If GZ had him at gunpoint, why would he let TM approach him and knock him on the ground? The screams also do not sound like someone standing there with a gun pointing at them, but someone under duress.

The voice analysis will most likely not be conclusive as to what happened, but I'm pretty sure once someone gets a hold of how TM's voice sounded like, it'll be shockingly revealed that it was in fact GZ screaming. In fact, if TM's parents are so sure it was their son screaming, why not release audio or video of him talking? That should settle the matter fairly quickly - if they're correct.

From what I can tell, none of what GZ said has been disproven, but many of the things coming from TM's side of the case have been, or they have not been forthcoming with information or evidence that could easily prove their case.

[Navillus]

GZ's friend Joe Oliver has been saying for while that GZ is not 200 plus lbs as an example of the media getting facts wrong in the case.
This quote is less than a week old but I recall hearing similar stuff when Oliver first surfaced.
Oliver: "That's a perfect example of all the misinformation that is out there. Based upon his 2005 arrest, a mug shot says he weights 250 pounds and that doesn't say he is 5 feet, 8 inches and 170 pounds.

http://www.clickorlando.com/news/Friend-George-Zimmerman-scared-for-his-life/-/1637132/9722180/-/e55273z/-/index.html

[podesta]

Tom. No visible blood on a red shirt? First of all, it was a coat. Second of all, if you get clear olive oil on your coat, it's visible, third of all, you must be pretty freaking tired to make such an idiotic statement. Get some sleep.

[podesta]

George. If Martin was smart, once a gun was pulled on him he would immediately start screaming for help and would not stop. That is the best move for self-preservation most especially when under duress. Do not be silent. If that was Martin's move, then he did not stop and continued screaming. Unfortunately, this just rattled Zimmerman, and he shot Martin. If it was Martin that screamed and he was killed, then it was bad luck that Zimmerman did not retreat, but to remain silent when confronted is the worst thing one can do. I do not know if Martin was killed at close range. I've not seen any reports whether the gunshot was at a distance or close.

[Sara (Pal2Pal)]

So the man who called 911, John, who was a witness at the scene and reported that the guy in red was on the bottom under the other guy and the guy in the red on the bottom was screaming and then a gun shot was heard, was lying when he was talking to 911 and as a witness at the scene?

[podesta]

Sara. I'm still wondering why you thought a person firing a gun was an edifying addition to the conversation about the Trayvon Martin tragedy. Please explain.

[Sara (Pal2Pal)]

I have no idea what you are talking about, so I cannot answer.

[podesta]

Very sorry response, Sara. You really have no idea what you are talking about so you cannot answer.

[podesta]

Let me amend my comment. You know exactly what you are talking about but you do not have the courage or integrity to identify or defend your own posts.

[Sara (Pal2Pal)]

LOL. I probably have a dozen comments today, would you like to be a bit more specific.

[podesta]

LOL is the last refuge of the pathetic. And you are a pathetic person.

[podesta]

Sara. Feigned ignorance is just ignorance, or malfeasence. It's your life. I'm off to bed.

[Sara (Pal2Pal)]

Oh woe is me! LOL

[bunkerbuster]

One of the sillier operative fictions here at JOM is that "John" is the only credible witness. Apparently, he's credible because he says he saw Martin on top. Had he said he saw Zimmerman on top, he wouldn't be credible, since JOMers don't know a mobius strip from a grass stain.
None of that matters much at all, because John -- according to the third/fourth hand accounts JOMers are freakishly taking as gospel -- didn't see the shooting.
Part of the JOM ludicrous certainty stance involves an unwillingness to even consider the virtually limitless number of scenarios that could explain Zimmerman's very minor injuries AND the shooting, without having Martin in the process of beating him to death.
Yet there are absolutely no scenarios in which Zimmerman doesn't pull the trigger and doesn't express his belief that Martin is up to no good and doesn't pursue Martin or in which Zimmerman is seriously injured.
Given that, the fact that Zimmerman wasn't arrested ought to be highly suspect by any decent-minded individual with at least two brain cells to rub together.
Even if Zimmerman could convince police that Martin attacked him, how in the world did he convince the prosecutor (against the lead investigator's recommendation) that he was in fear for his life?
I think this is why Zimmerman's father referred to a struggle for the gun, even though GZ himself -- if the Sentinel leaks can be believed -- didn't. They know it's just not credible that an unarmed 17-year-old would beat Zimmerman, who came prepared for violence, to death for nothing more than disrespecting him.

[Patriot4Freedom]

Sara (Pal2Pal) -

I think podesta has some faux outrage to express over the "Toodles" video...

I thought it was quite funny, btw. Thanks for sharing it with us !

[BR]

Testing Testing Testing

[BR]

Daddy, in case you're still awake, I'm so excited, I found a site for online TV and radio, worldwide. Right now I'm watching a black Israeli speaking in the Knesset, very animated, great fun. Everytime someone mentions Netanyahu, I shake my finger at the screen and say, Now don't you say anything bad about him :)

The site has flags for all the countries, and when you click on one, you get this huge selection of TV and radio online. Just finished listening to Armenian music via France. I may be up all night with this fun. Anyway, I thought of you being stuck with CNN on your travels. Here's the answer on your laptop!

www.2onlinetv.com
LUN

[Tom Maguire]

Second of all, if you get clear olive oil on your coat, it's visible...

Good intel if I am ever attacked by a salad-wielding maniac.

One of the sillier operative fictions here at JOM is that "John" is the only credible witness. Apparently, he's credible because he says he saw Martin on top.

First, he is more relevant ('credible' not the point) than the witnesses who saw nothing but feel that an injustice has been done (e.g., Ms. Cutcher).

However, per the Times, you are right - we are being silly:

The police have said that [Zimmerman's] account, at least in its broadest outlines, is backed up by witnesses, most of whom have not spoken publicly.

I am not a big 'trust authority' guy, but at some point the promoters of an alternative reality need to find a hook to this semi-shared reality. Based on their track record I would discourage reliance on the family and Ben Crump for that hook.

[Yep, pathetic.]

podesta pathetically picks on pal.
==============

[BR]

OMG, they're auctioning off China in Arabic on Malta TV!

[Rob Crawford]

Bubu:
They know it's just not credible that an unarmed 17-year-old would beat Zimmerman, who came prepared for violence, to death for nothing more than disrespecting him.

One, St. Trayvon had no idea Zimmerman was armed.

Two, 17 year-olds have started fights over less.

Three, John is not the only witness; he happens to be the one who saw the most detail.

[BR]

OMG, Dutch pop music is hilarious! Great antidote to the fixation on one item of created US news.

[BR]

Live blogging - there's great consternation in Holland over a vehicle that crashed into a supermarket.

[BR]

It's very funny if you only know some of the words, now they're speaking Canadian - out and about and a cutthroat shaver....

[BR]

These Dutch with their vaarts and poeps....

[Sara (Pal2Pal)]

Patriot4Freedom: Thanks for clearing that up. So he got his knickers in a twist over Granny. How quaint. LOL.

[Sara (Pal2Pal)]

Cross-hairs for me but not for thee:

http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2012/04/new-black-panthers-plan-april-9-national-day-of-action/

[Clarice]

Great catch, TM. As for this "
I actually think the media just rode the horse that the father saddled up. That's my guess, anyway."

That's what I think. The family lawyer wrote a narrative that the media loved and he fed them a juicy meal of it daily so they didn't have to work and could just do tat thing--i,e, m you know, Make a difference.

Nice little backstroke by the NYT--barely discernible shift in the take but the readers downing their bagels or croissants and lattes this morning are slowly getting a different subliminal impression.
If they walked it back too obviously, why what would that do to their credibility?

[BR]

Ah, this thread used to be entitled:
"Is the NY Times breaking news or breaking wind."
Quietly, TM has changed it :) Change at NYT?

[BR]

Hi, Clarice :) I responded to yr question in the We Have a Winner thread.

[Little Jack Horner.]

He's just making explicit where the thumb was.
===============

[Jane (Where is Jon Corzine?)]

Do we know where on Trayvon's body the bullet entered?

BTW I hear it is Mrs Iggy's b-day. I bet she is glad she isn't married to Barney Frank.

HB Mrs Iggy!

[Slartibartfast]

It's amazing to me that some people can tell from the surveillance video that Zimmerman was not hurt, but can't tell from that same video that he's no 250 pounder.

Selective myopia.

[Th_Ph]

I have two questions for anyone who actually wants to turn up some facts.

One: Did Trayvon Martin's father's girlfriend, who he was said to be visiting, actually live *inside* the gated community where the confrontation took place? If not, how did Trayvon Martin get inside the gates? Is there a guardhouse that had to admit him? Or is this something other than what we all think of when we hear "gated community"?

Two: What is the origin of the Skittles and ice tea information? It's not in the police report. Are his parents the source of this? How do they know? His body apparently sat in the morgue for 3 days. Were these Skittles among his effects?

Anybody?

[centralcal]

Happy Birthday Mrs. Iggy!

[ThomasD]

We are a representative republic, that uses democratic practices. We are not a representative democracy.

[NK]

More InstaLove for TomM from Glenn Reynolds. There must be some kind of ad revenue sharing agreement, TomM provides the product, Glenn brings the ad dollars in the door.

Happy B-Day Mrs. Ig.

[BR]

This is good - 20 mins ago at Reuters re Syria:

"U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton said her government was supplying 'communications equipment that will help activists organize, evade attacks by the regime and connect to the outside world" and was "discussing with other nations how best to expand this support'."

That means more cell phone and internet access for the Syrian people in bringing down the Assad regime.

[narciso]

There is no gate, as TM's myriad maps indicate, and the police did show his picture, the next day, redolent of that scene so familiar from Law & Order to CSI.

[narciso]

Ah yes, the Atlantic, William Dean Howell, sighs,

[NK]

OT-- Henry what's going on in Wisc. with the primary? shockingly, ann althouse had kind things to say about Romney and Ryan.

[narciso]

Happy birthday. Mr.s Ig, apparently, 60 Minutes did a segment on Obama cutting NASA
funding, Steve Schmidt was seen flying off
in the distance.

[GMAX]

A website that tracks economic activity that I followed had this about the BEA numbers. The deflater being used in less than 1% which means the topline headline growth is well BS:

once again the most interesting component in this report was the effective overall "deflater" that the BEA used to correct the "nominal" data into "real" numbers: annualized inflation during 4Q-2011 is now reported by the BEA to have been a mere 0.84%. As a reminder, lower "deflaters" cause the reported "real" growth rates to increase -- and once again very low seasonally adjusted BEA inflation "deflaters" have been the headline number's best friend.

[interested]

RE TH_PH: His body apparently sat in the morgue for 3 days.

The Times article states:

Early next morning, no sign of Trayvon, still. Mr. Martin called his son’s cellphone, which again went to voice mail. He then repeatedly called the cousin until he answered, only to share the distressing news that he had not seen Trayvon.

Now it was Mr. Martin calling 911. He reported that his son was missing, and then described what his son was wearing. Soon he was outside, meeting a couple of responding police officers. One of them took out a photograph of a dead body from a folder.

* * * * *
If Trayvon was in the morgue for three days, it was not because his father did not know his son's fate.

[narciso]

Wait, his sister didn't call her parents, telling them, I just hear TRayvon cry out and
a gunshot ring out.

[fdcol63]

Well, in this excerpt, we still don't have a good time line as far as when, exactly, the SPF showed up at Mr. Martin's house.

All we see is a reference for "early next morning", and then "repeatedly" - but we don't know how many times Mr. Martin tried to call or for how long he tried to make contact.

Was it one day? 2 days?

But since he called 911 andmade a report, we can get a definite time from that.

interested, do you know what that time was?

[Clarice]

HB to the beautiful Mrs Ig.

[henry]

NK, WI is now all politics all the time with the primary and recall in full swing. Massive volume of robocalls all weekend -- the usual negative stuff from the candidates as well fluff from the Romney and Santorum wives. Throw in robocalls for the recall and I'm very happy friends stopped by to shoot things. Now I'm out of ammo. Tomorrow is the primary and normal local elections -- essentially all candidates are vetted with the recall signature database. I expect turnover on a lot of school boards. The conventional wisdom is Romney wins and Santorum is toast as Romney picked up both Ryan and Ron Johnson endorsements.

[Susan]

Food for thought...Trayvon's father and girlfriend go out to dinner. T goes to 7-11 for skittles and ice tea. Walks about 1 mile each way. The shooting happens. What time does the father get back from dinner? How does he not see all the police investigating? He son is not home. He doesn't make call to police until next morning. If Trayvon was talking to the girlfriend why didn't she call the family and report what she heard? She said she heard the confrontation.

[iqvoice]

Attn: BunkerBuster. Zimmerman /was/ arrested... he was cuffed, placed in the back of a police car, and taken to the police station. Get your facts straight.

Now, as for bloody wounds. There are a couple factors that I don't think have been fully explored here on JOM.

1) Real gun shots don't look like the movies. In some cases, there is hardly any visible blood at all. Or, depending on the type of ammo used, the majority of blood spatter would be on the exit wound, not the entrance wound.

2) Where you are shot makes a difference. Head wounds tend to bleed a lot, because the heart is still intact and pumping blood. If Zimmerman shot Trayvon in the chest and used hollow points, Trayvon would have been dead almost instantly. Quick death means less blood.

3) Zimmermans clothes. On the other hand, how do we even know that the clothes zimmerman is wearing in the police video are the same ones that he wore during the shooting? For all we know, the police could have bagged zimmermans outer clothes as evidence while he was being treated by the paramedics; he was mere minutes from his own house... couldn't a neighbor, etc have given him a change of clothes?

[fdcol63]

I've never seen these quotes, from 911 calls about the incident:

“I looked out my window and there’s a guy on top with a white T-shirt ... I couldn’t see the person he was on.”

— Female voice

There’s a black guy standing up over him.”

— Female voice

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2012/04/02/us/the-events-leading-to-the-shooting-of-trayvon-martin.html

[Appalled]

OK Gang:

Based on all the tales I have read on this thread, I still don't know where:

* Trayvon took the bullet (what body part -- exactly where);

* The angle of the bullet;

* How far away the bullet was shot from.

I think this is going to tell us more about what happened than who was screaming. Because, if Zimmerman, instead of pulling the trigger, could have run away, I think he has legal problems.

One does wonder what the coroner's report has to say -- as I think it would answer a lot of questions.

[Jack is Back!]

Don't know if this has been previoiusly noted or posted but there is now a radio call tape of the police cancelling a second ambulance (assuming for GZ).

LUN

[Porchlight]

Happy birthday to the lovely Mrs. Iggy!

[Clarice]

Ramirez does it again--he's probably the best political cartoonist in the world.
http://www.lucianne.com/images/lucianne/DailyPhoto/2012-04-02-ZWEQW.jpg

[Melinda Romanoff]

Happy Birthday Mrs. Ig! (I successfully dodged another one, this past weekend. Good cake abandoned at the scene of the crime. YL's spouse caught attacking with fork on the next day. In Pajamas.)

[yeah that will happen]

Appalled

You seem to like to imply that GZ was quite a distance away from TM. You then say if this is the case why didn't GZ run away rather than shoot.

I ask a different question, if they are standing why doesn't TM run away, I know I sure as heck would if someone had a gun pointing at me----TM was not shot in the back, so obviously not running away.

[Porchlight]

Appalled, I still don't understand why you seem to discount the witness testimony saying that Martin was on top of Zimmerman beating him.

Incidentally I think it has already been reported that Martin was shot in the chest.

Let's say it turns out that the shot was very close range, less than two feet. How does that change anything, in your view? He still "could have run away," right?

[Threadkiller]

Is the release of the coroner's report and/or death certificate under the control of Trayvon's legal guardians?

Him being a yute and all.

[Threadkiller]

Happy Birthday Mrs Ignatz!!!

[henry]

HB Mrs Iggy!

[jimmyk]

TK, I believe it's by state policy, but my impression is that coroner's reports are usually considered public documents.

[Jack is Back!]

HB, Mrs. Ignatz. Do us all a favor and join us for cake and ice cream later today in the conference room.

Sharpton/Jackson rally now being reported in Orlando media as "less than expected". Plus Jackson is stuck on the "racial profiling" schtick.

But then the Sentinel is reporting this little nugget: Teen Shot Last Night in Sanford.

17 years old and not Trayvon. Anyone want to hazard a guess as to his ethinicity and that of the assailant(s)? Not reported.

Calling Sharpton and Jackson to the white phone (no pun intended).

[drjohn]

Why would Zimmerman hold Martin at gunpoint for 47 seconds before shooting him???? Why would he let him scream all that time? To be sure there were eyewitnesses?

[Brian Cates]

Considering all the other males in this pic to be 'normal' sized, TrayVon was a pretty big dude:

https://twitter.com/#!/drawandstrike/status/186765550557478913

[narciso]

Remember what I said earlier, oh you don't never mind, because it's all good.

http://lynch.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2012/04/01/the_muslim_brotherhoods_presidential_gambit

[Extraneus]

Did you see the one of Obama standing between a few military and secret service guys at the DMZ in South Korea, Clarice? I can't find a link.

Obama, peering through binoculars into NK: "Looks desolate. It's like going back 50 years in time. No electricity."

General standing next to him: "It's a Green Energy Economy, sir."

[Extraneus]

Here it is.

[Danube of Thought]

Minus 15 at Raz today.

Tied with Romney.

[narciso]

Everybody laugh at the silly little man, as Widlanski, recommends

http://dailycaller.com/2012/04/01/ny-times-friedman-says-gop-no-longer-a-conservative-party-its-become-a-radical-party/

[Clarice]

Heh, Ect.

Narciso, I'm sure it's a coincidence but in today's Wa Po E.J. Dionne makes the same point. HEH

Tom Tancredo also has a good point in todday's AT:

"he New York Times reported, "As the nation's only Hispanic governor, Mr. Richardson could become a champion for Mr. Obama among Hispanic voters, who have been an important voting bloc for Mrs. Clinton in the primaries thus far."
Richardson was born William Blaine Richardson III. He attended prep school at Middlesex, known for educating the WASP elite in New England. His paternal grandfather was a WASP, and his paternal grandmother is Mexican. His maternal grandfather is from Northern Spain, and his maternal grandmother is Mexican. If anyone is a "white Hispanic," it is William Blaine Richardson III.
While occasional media profiles of Richardson mention his background, he is always described as Hispanic or Latino. They never question whether he is really Hispanic or explain how "complicated" classifying Latinos is, much less describe him as a "white Hispanic."
It is worth contrasting the media's treatment of Richardson's ethnicity with their treatment Trayvon Martin shooter George Zimmerman, whose father is white and mother is Peruvian.
The media almost initially called Zimmerman white, and it fit into their narrative of white racism holding down Hispanics. However, after Zimmerman's father sent a letter to the Orlando Sentinel (and major conservative news sites like Breitbart.com and Drudge Report linked to the letter), they stopped referring to Zimmerman as white. The New York Times and Reuters began referring to him as a "white Hispanic." Virtually the rest of the media followed suit. If you put "white Hispanic" and "Zimmerman" into a Google News search, over 1,200 stories pop up. If you put in "white Hispanic" excluding the word "Zimmerman," there are about 50 stories, but a closer look shows that every single one of them is indirectly referring to Zimmerman, or else the two words are next to each other as a coincidence (e.g., "Asian, white, Hispanic, or African American.") "

http://www.americanthinker.com/2012/04/william_blaine_richardson_iii_or_george_zimmerman_who_is_the_white_hispanic.html#ixzz1qtFlJ4lK

[fdcol63]

Friedman. The guy who thinks America should be more like China.

Yeah .... he's "middle of the road".

/end sarcasm

[GMAX]

Robert Reich explains the situation to the faithful. It aint pretty:

"We do know that more jobs are being created," said Reich, professor of public policy of the University of California at Berkeley. "The problem is that the actual labor participation rate, the ratio of people who are in the labor force relative to the people who are eligible to work, it's down to almost the lowest point it was during the great recession. We haven't seen much pickup in that." In February, it stood at 63.9 percent, which was down from 64.2 percent in February 2011, and significantly below the 66 percent levels of 2006 and 2007.

In addition, while the economy has been expanding for nearly three years and hiring is picking up, Reich notes, "we also see some major declines in terms of median wage. And that's particularly true for the bottom 90 percent."

[narciso]

So the USA Today poll he's opened up a lead in the Swing states with Romney, but he's tied
in the Rasmussen, 'how unexpected'

[Melinda Romanoff]

Trayvon's parents have asked the DoJ to "look into" Seminole Cty State's Atty, Norm Wolfinger's actions.

I wonder how Gov. Scott will take this news.

[Appalled]

Kim:

I don't think Zimmerman is a dead eye shot. Nothing has come out that suggests he is. My guess is he had to be fairly close to Trayvon to hit him in the chest.

Porchlight:

I don't discount the eyewitness. Really. But someone else in the thread quotes Zimmerman's dad to the effect that Zimmerman had squirmed away from Trayvon in the grass before shooting. What does that mean? Was he on his feet? If so, he might be able to get away (meaning he might not hav the legal right to shoot). If he made the shot while still on the ground, then Zimmerman has a better case, because he might argue Trayvon was about to jump on top of him again.

This is a confused situation, and poster podesta has a point when he indicates that some folks here ar all focused on the exculpatory evidence to the exclusion of everything else. Neither you an I were there, and the physical evidence showing what happened that night at the moment the shot was fired has not been released.

[narciso]

Just part of the 99%, I see,

His father, William Blaine Richardson, Jr. (died in 1972), of half New England Yankee and half Mexican descent, was an American Citibank executive[6][7] who grew up in Boston, Massachusetts[6] and lived and worked in Mexico City.[7] His mother, María Luisa López-Collada Márquez[7] is the Mexican daughter of a Spanish father from Villaviciosa, Asturias, Spain and a Mexican mother[6][8][9][10] and was his father's secretary.[7][9] Richardson's father was born in Nicaragua.[

[Extraneus]

Zimmerman should be honored to be the first white Hispanic in American history. Why, I'd bet he could single-handedly reduce the AA rolls by 50% if that classification catches on with the left.

[narciso]

No, Appalled, they chose to deliberately mispresent this tragic situation from the Getgo, from Zimmerman's ethnicity to the 911
call, to his physical features, bring in details that would be inadmissible like the
domestic violence charge, this is how a 'narrative' is crafted. On the other side, the angelic portrait of Trayvon, covered up any faults, including his multiple suspensions, that left his 200 miles from home.

[Clarice]

My goodness, Reich is brave. He'll probably be knifed at the next Berkeley faculty meeting.

[Thomas Collins]

Birthday greetings to Ignatz's better half!

[Melinda Romanoff]

narciso-

Whatever happened to the corruption probe into Gov. Bill?