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April 21, 2012

Comments

NK

I'll amend my comment-- for 4 weeks comments have wanted a suspect under active investigation for shooting dead an unarmed 17yo, and for almost 2 weeks wanting a Murder 2 Charge defendant to walk..

Thanks for making my comment more accurate.
Now a question for you: should GZ have walked because of his background? because of his background, should he have been treated differently then all of the other young men in Florida Charged with Murder2 (overcharged) when they get into a fight and shoot the guy dead? Should GZ be treated by the State because of who he is, or what he did?

Jane

Capn'

Olberman is on the panel on Stephanopolus - and that Carolyn Maloney is as whorish as I've seen on the Sunday shows. Are you watching?

I agree about Daniels.

cboldt

-- I don't think that Corey or the people who signed that affidavit believe that Zimmerman is guilty. --


Chilling, if true. And, if true, they need to be run out of the offices they hold.


I've credited them with choosing to adopt the Martins. Stockholm syndrome, sort of.

Porchlight

NK,

You are missing something. Zimmerman was released. It was determined by law enforcement, after an appropriate investigation, that a crime was not committed. That continues to be the position taken by most here. There is no crime. Therefore it is impossible for him to "walk" away from punishment for it.

The only thing that changed after that determination was made was that a political commotion was created by friends of the current WH occupant.

NK

CecilT-- you make a fair and honest point. Tough on crime prosecutors should only go after the right kind of defendant.. the guilty ones. True enough-- but how do they know that in a particular case? life experience is a big part.. typical black gangbanging kid gets into a fight and kills the other kid. We all know he's guilty, throw the book at him, right? mexican kid into the Latino gangs, he shoots someone.. he's obviously guilty, right? we see it every day. Right? GZ?.. tragic mistake, he's no vigilante, no crime. Right? Think about that. See TMaguires quote in the next thread-- Saint Thomas More and cutting the laws like trees. Think about it.

Cecil Turner

Each side gets six peremptories.

That's why I considered 18 as the effective pool size in the example above. I wasn't sure though, because I read the peremptories go up to 10 for capital and "life" offenses (and I've no clue if murder 2 fits the bill) . . . and of course the racial element would be anything but random.

Porchlight

True enough-- but how do they know that in a particular case?

They ought to be making their determination in each case based on the evidence, not on what their life experience tells them about the backgrounds of the people involved.

pagar

Off topic or On the topic of FUBAR, with A lesson for those who want to do the right thing doing investigations.

"A couple of hours ago, a HK news correspondent in Chongqing reported that the 2 policeman who discovered Heywood's body "immediately determined it was murder" and informed Wang - who then told Bo, leading to the 'fit of rage' incident where he told Wang to leave the room for half an hour until he could calm down & clear his head. Shortly after, the 2 policeman were then extensively tortured and died soon after (as per the news of 2 hours ago)".

Posted by a commenter under this main article:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/how-chinas-bo-affair-rattled-the-white-house-7658086.html

Lesson to be learned from this affair or the Zimmerman/Martin affair. If you're investigating under the control of leftists like Holder or Bo and want to keep you job or your life, forget about the evidence and just tell them what they want to hear.

windansea

interesting lswsuit against Maddow/MSNBC has similarities to what Zimmerman may pursue against media for editing 811 calls etc

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/thr-esq/rachel-maddow-lawsuit-bradlee-dean-msnbc-314234

Captain Hate

Olberman is on the panel on Stephanopolus - and that Carolyn Maloney is as whorish as I've seen on the Sunday shows. Are you watching?

No I usually don't watch it although it might be coming on now here since you've piqued my interest, but not in a good way.

Ack, it's not on now so maybe I've missed it.

NK

Porch- that's not accurate. While we don't know for a fact, the SPD released information on its website that CZ was released that night and there was an ONGOING investigation of the shooting right up until Chief Lee resigned and Wolfinger stepped down from the case. there's a media report (I know meaningless) that Serino the SPD major crimes detective wanted to keep taking statements from GZ to catch him in a lie. So no, Porch, NO law enforcement has ever exonerated GZ. That's just not true.

Cecil Turner

Right? GZ?.. tragic mistake, he's no vigilante, no crime. Right? Think about that.

Think about what? If this made any sense as GZ hunting down TM, my opinion would be different. It doesn't. If TM had the same injuries GZ had, my opinion would be different. He didn't. The evidence doesn't support any nefarious intent on GZ's part, which suggests it's exactly that: a tragic mistake (brought on primarily by TM's decision to assault someone without first checking to see if he was armed).

Porchlight

So no, Porch, NO law enforcement has ever exonerated GZ. That's just not true.

Okay, fine, let's say you're right. I maintain that under Lee/Wolfinger he was not likely to ever have been charged. But technically it could have happened at any minute.

My point stands: no crime committed, therefore no "walk" - is the position of most here.

NK

Porch-- Ok I agree, facts of each case, not the backgound. remember the Tampa newpaper report about deadly force self-defense cases. Something like 6 of the 9 similar Fla cases were charged with a homicide, just like GZ. Some were granted immunity by the Judge, some were acquitted, 2 are pending trial. Is GZ being treated differently than other Fla cases-- no one has demonstrated that-- to my knowledge. he's being treated like the black and Latino gangbangers who shoot another man in a fight.

Danube of Thought

"because of his background, should he have been treated differently then all of the other young men in Florida Charged with Murder2 "

Each person so charged should be treated according to the evidence against him--and the evidence in his favor. I don't know about the evidence for or against any other murder 2 derendant in Florida, but if you find me one where it stacks up about like that in the Zimmerman case, I'd be clamoring for relief for that guy, too.

windansea

Talkleft has a new post about witness ¨John¨and that he may be the guy who took bloody head photo of ZM

http://www.talkleft.com/story/2012/4/22/54738/3187

NK

CecilT-- as you know I think the Murder2 Charge is a joke,a ridiculous overchrge, not even circumstantial evidence of malice. But, if shooting defendants are TYPICALLY treated this way in Fla (the Tampa newspaper claims that is the case) why all of the outrage over GZ? is it because he's the 'wrong kind' of defendant? The media lies? It's a serious question...

cboldt

-- there was an ONGOING investigation of the shooting right up until Chief Lee resigned and Wolfinger stepped down from the case. --


SPD sent the case to Wolfinger on March 13. At that point, the investigation is complete.


The 911 calls were released to the public, by the mayor of Sanford, on March 16th


Lee and Wolfinger "stepped aside" on March 22nd. (scare quotes because one or both were forced).


The case is assigned to Corey.

NK

DoT-- that's the kind of perspective I'm trying to keep. In the 9 cases the Tampa paper reported on (2 NO Charges were different, because they were a home invasion and car jack-- self defense is different there), most of those guys were charged like GZ. I like tough on crime prosecutors and judges, but I've got to admit, being harsh can lead to injustice, just like being too lenient. That's the point I've been making.

cboldt

-- Is GZ being treated differently than other Fla cases-- no one has demonstrated that-- to my knowledge. --


There's that Armenian who shot and killed another Armenian. The shooter fled the scene, came back an hour later, was arrested. Corey no billed that one. Shooting in December last year, no-bill in February this year.


I don't know the details of the fact pattern of the shooting; but taking a case that the police found didn't meet probable cause, and charging, makes the Zimmerman case appear to be an outlier.

boris

"why all of the outrage over GZ?"

Because the facts I am aware of support it.

The inference that comes to mind ... NK is asking us to look into our "hearts" for some kind of agenda unworthy of rational beings.

NK

Did Wolfinger advise GZ there was no charge, and Corey change the State's position? No. Wolfinger had an active case when he gave it up. We can all read tea leaves about what he may have ultmately done or not do. But he never closed the case.

Cecil Turner

. . . he's being treated like the black and Latino gangbangers who shoot another man in a fight.

Ridiculous, and relying on the same faulty logic that led the prosecutor to overcharge. It isn't illegal, immoral, or wrong to suspect someone (especially someone acting suspiciously) and ask them what they're doing. Assuming that's what happened, GZ is perfectly innocent up to that point.

And then? A fight didn't just "break out" . . . a struggle didn't "ensue" . . . Trayvon Martin assaulted George Zimmerman.

Hence GZ shouldn't be treated like a gangbanger who decided to assault someone and ended up shooting him in the process. He should be treated like the neighborhood watch guy who got jumped by a thug . . . and shot him in self-defense. And per Florida law, that means he "is immune from criminal prosecution" which "includes arresting, detaining in custody, and charging or prosecuting the defendant."

cboldt

-- But [Wolfinger] never closed the case. --


The investigation was concluded on March 13th. The case would persist until disposed of by the grand jury on April 10.

Porchlight

remember the Tampa newpaper report about deadly force self-defense cases. Something like 6 of the 9 similar Fla cases were charged with a homicide, just like GZ.

Not true - go back and look. There were 11 cases examined including Zimmerman's which was described as "pursuit" - which indicates problems with the analysis right there, but anyway...

So excluding Zimmerman for purposes of comparison, there are 10 cases. 4 are "arguments escalating" - of those, 1 pending, 1 immunity, 2 no charges.

1 "neighbor dispute" - no charges.

1 "shooting outside bar" - acquittal.

Remaining 4 - not applicable - road rage, trespassing, robbery, etc.

So in 6 arguably similar cases, charges only brought against 2 defendants, 1 of which was granted immunity, and 1 acquitted.

On top of this, these were all classified as SYG cases which Zimmerman's is not, according to the evidence we have.

http://www.tampabay.com/stand-your-ground-law/cases/case_139

Cecil Turner

why all of the outrage over GZ?

I'm not sure what you mean by this. Are you talking about the NBPP's bounty on Zimmerman? The rallies and assaults by those angry at the perceived injustice? Or the expected riots if Zimmerman is acquitted?

Or those of us who think lynching is bad, even if a bunch of black guys are the ones holding the rope?

NK

CecilT says: "He should be treated like the neighborhood watch guy who got jumped by a thug . . ." we don't know if TMartin 'jumped' GZ or even if TMartin is a 'thug'.Now you sound like your saying GZ is the wrong kind of defendant.

Boris-- I think I am saying we should always remember our own biases.

Cboldt- the other Corey case is interesting. If I recall, she arrested his ass, and kept him in jail for almost 3 months. She was uncertain about the case and brought the case to a GJ, and the GJ No Billed. Isn't that correct?

Captain Hate

Jane I just looked in the tv guide and the ABC show is on at the same time as FNS. Odormann is getting hammered over @ AoS; not a surprising revelation I'm sure...

boris

"we should always remember our own biases"

Amen and thank you for the Sunday morning sermon.

Porchlight

DoT-- that's the kind of perspective I'm trying to keep. In the 9 cases the Tampa paper reported on (2 NO Charges were different, because they were a home invasion and car jack-- self defense is different there)

Again, this is not accurate. Go back and look. 11 cases, of which 1 is Zimmerman's. 6 cases arguably similar to Zimmerman. Results out of those 6:

3 - no charges brought
1 - charges brought, immunity granted
1 - charges brought, acquittal
1 - still pending

So that's 2, possibly 3 out of 6 where charges were brought. AND those were all considered SYG cases and Zimmerman's was described as "pursuit" so the analysis is suspect to begin with.

cboldt

-- If I recall, she arrested his ass, and kept him in jail for almost 3 months. She was uncertain about the case and brought the case to a GJ, and the GJ No Billed. Isn't that correct? --


Seems you know more about it than I do. I assumed the police arrested him, based on news articles. I don't know if she put the case to a GJ or not. According to her, she never puts a self defense claim before a GJ, unless it's a capital charge.

Jack is Back!

I've credited them with choosing to adopt the Martins. Stockholm syndrome, sort of.

IIRC, there was a Law & Order episode using just that scenario. Facts be damned - just show some empathy for the family.

Cecil Turner

we don't know if TMartin 'jumped' GZ or even if TMartin is a 'thug'

Sure, GZ beat himself up. And beating up GZ doesn't make Martin a thug because he was "dissed."

Now you sound like your saying GZ is the wrong kind of defendant.

No, I'm saying (based on the evidence) he wasn't committing a crime at the time (i.e., he wasn't assaulting someone else). So he should be treated like a law-abiding citizen, because that's what he was. Note the difference from the "gang-banger" who is breaking the law whilst assaulting someone else. And if, in the process, he manages to kill someone, he ought to be punished as the law dictates. What's so hard about this?

Danube of Thought

"why all of the outrage over GZ? "

Because of the interposition of the race hustlers, who certainly appear to have influenced the disposition of the case.

cboldt

As far as "exoneration" goes, the police didn't find probable cause. It's not up to the police to charge, in any case - bringing charges is completely outside of their function.


Given insufficient evidence to support arrest (no probable cause), it is hard to fathom that the GJ would have found evidence beyond a reasonable doubt that Zimmerman should be tried.


Corey changes the calculus by introducing DeeDee and Sybrina. As far as I know, Corey has not intimated that SPD blew the investigation, or made an incorrect "no arrest" call.

Rick Ballard

"Because of the interposition of the race hustlers, who certainly appear to have influenced the disposition of the case."

DoT,

I believe that you have to assign equal responsibility to the MFM enablers who bit on Crump's version of the Tawana Martin case and fanned the embers of an unfortunate misadventure into a nice race fire - with the help of the President. This isn't about Crump winning any settlement for the Martin's, it's about Crump making it to the big time - the Justice Brothers Duet becoming a Trio. Crump is hoping for a beer distributorship, not a cut of the nothing received from empty pockets.

Jack is Back!

cboldt, et. al.,

Corey's other SYG, 2nd Degree Miurder case - this one in Jacksonville. And the perp is a black teenager attacked by 3 other kids back in 2009.

NK

Cboldt. In the debate in late march I critcized wolfinger for moving too slowly in bringing the case to a GJ because showing the public an ongoing active 'case' would have helped defuse the hustler and media lies. In the end wolfingerr was empanelling a GJ and going that way. What he would have put before the GJ we can't know and what the GJ would have done we don't know. But my point stands, he never exonerated GZ. No one has yet to show that GZ is a modern sir thomas more, uniquely victim of a political frame up.

Cecil Turner

And the perp is a black teenager attacked by 3 other kids back in 2009.

Illegally carrying a gun (gee, what for, I wonder) and shooting his attackers in the back after the fighting was over.

If this decision was "razor-close," Zimmerman's is a no brainer.

Porchlight

Cboldt. In the debate in late march I critcized wolfinger for moving too slowly in bringing the case to a GJ because showing the public an ongoing active 'case' would have helped defuse the hustler and media lies.

Because defusing the hustler and media lies is what's really important.

NK

DoT I agree with your 1107. We all have a duty to condemn the media lies and race hustlers especially the race hustler in chief. But take a look at JiB link to the Corey self defense case in Jacksonville Yes that kid killed 3 attackers, but it seems undisputed they laid in wait with specific intent to seriously injure him. Corey charged and opposed immunity. So maybe the GZ charge was typical for Corey

NK

Porch. Yes defusing the lies with courtroom evidence is important yes.

CecilT now you do sound like you re saying the kid in Jacksoville is the wrong kind of defendant.

Ignatz

Absent the media circus and race pimps the ordinary course of judicial and law enforcement events would have led Zimmerman to have been already and properly free of any legal peril, both civil and criminal.

The reason this is an injustice NK seems pretty obvious. Are you seeing it but do not consider it an injustice or do you not even see it?

Porchlight

Yes defusing the lies with courtroom evidence is important yes.

Then you shouldn't encourage a rush to do so, esp. when evidence isn't actually there.

NK

Ig. I think wolfinger would have not empaneled a GJ and closed the file but for the race hustler politics. I think Corey was a lock to charge GZ once she was appointed. I think GZ's immunity motion will be denied because of the politics. I think GZ. Pleads out to a homocide charge because the state has to get something from the charge because of the politics. Is it UNJUST that GZ gets treated like a common thug and gets no benefit of the doubt because of politics?That s a big question. Maybe tomm can do a thread about that.

Cecil Turner

CecilT now you do sound like you re saying the kid in Jacksoville is the wrong kind of defendant.

You have a hard time with this "evidence" thing, don't you? Note the little problem with carrying a gun when you don't have a permit for it? It's illegal, right?

GMax

I think NK as he frequently does, has decided he has a morally superior view of all of this. From the "ironic" initial comment to the preachy "remember your biases" pablum, its NK feeling pretty good about himself, while what appears to be a man innocent under the law is subjected to loss of liberty through detention, death threats in part a direct product of the race hustling, and at a minimum forced to pay for defending himself against serious but unsupported charges. I would not feel very superior about supporting such a system of anything but justice, but hey this is America where you are allowed to have stupid ideas.

Porchlight

Is it UNJUST that GZ gets treated like a common thug and gets no benefit of the doubt because of politics?That s a big question.

It's a big question? Really? I don't think there's any question at all. Of course it is unjust.

I really do not understand your angle, NK. What exactly are you arguing?

Ignatz

--Is it UNJUST that GZ gets treated like a common thug and gets no benefit of the doubt because of politics?That s a big question.--

I agree it is a very big question, one of the biggest society faces, but it's not a difficult one.
The answer in this case as it essentially always is, YES.

AliceH

Posted by: NK | April 22, 2012 at 11:53 AM

What a shocking thing to say.

I second Porchlight's question. NK - what are you arguing? I know what it sounds like, but I have a hard time believing it of you.

NK

CecilT makes my point. Corey didn t charge the kid in jacksonville with unlawful gun possession she charged him with murder2 and opposed his immunity motion. Corey is treating GZ like her other defendants. BTW GZ does have a prior arrest and a prior 911 call against him for allegedly hitting a girl friend. As far as self righteous GMAX Of course I think I am being the opposite of self righteous. I reject the race hustler narrative that GZ was a vigilante who hunted down the poor sweet kid. I also reject the narrative that of course GZ should walk no charge because he s not one of THOSE people , you know, the thug you read about, the thug you see hanging out on the street up to no good. The DA should go after THOSE people. No GMAX it s not self righteous to think about whether us good people know who should walk, case closed.

NK

Ig/Alice. If politics is obviously unjust in GZ s case, is it also equally unjust that Corey keeps getting re elected by playing up to the voters' bias by going after the street thugs and overcharging them and never giving those kids the benefit of the doubt? Thats politics as well, isn t it?

Ignatz

--I also reject the narrative that of course GZ should walk no charge because he s not one of THOSE people..--

NK,
Nobody is arguing that. It's being argued that based on the known evidence he should walk and was in fact allowed to walk initially.
If the prosecution brings nothing more than Dee Dee, Sybrina and innuendo will you still think he shouldn't have walked but was properly put in legal jeopardy?

GMax

Its not self righteous to try yourself, find yourself innocent and then proclaim CASE CLOSED, either apparently.

AliceH

Posted by: NK | April 22, 2012 at 12:17 PM

Oh. So it was exactly what it looked like after all.

GMax

Perhaps if you pulled your head out, the view would be a whole new world?

AliceH

If politics is obviously unjust in GZ s case, is it also equally unjust that Corey keeps getting re elected by playing up to the voters' bias by going after the street thugs and overcharging them and never giving those kids the benefit of the doubt?

That is a stellar example of what I call "immoral equivalence".

Ignatz

--If politics is obviously unjust in GZ s case, is it also equally unjust that Corey keeps getting re elected by playing up to the voters' bias by going after the street thugs and overcharging them and never giving those kids the benefit of the doubt? Thats politics as well, isn t it?--

You're assuming a fact not in evidence counselor.
Corey has never handled a case like this before and it is entirely possible that her normally sound judgement was lost in the vortex of media circus, potential riots, political pressures, etc.

Even more fundamentally is seems pretty clear there was no underlying crime on Zimmerman's part, at least it's clear to me based on the available evidence, so of course he should have the benefit of the doubt.
There is considerable less injustice involved when a guy guilty of 2nd degree murder cops a plea to it because he was overcharged with 1st degree murder.
The only time it's an injustice is when a person admits to a crime they didn't commit, something I've already stated here more than once.

Cecil Turner

CecilT makes my point. Corey didn t charge the kid in jacksonville with unlawful gun possession she charged him with murder2 and opposed his immunity motion.

No, you just can't be bothered to read the law, which makes it clear that unlawful gun possession undermines the immunity motion:

A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony. [emphasis added]
Zimmerman being law abiding is not prejudice, it's an essential part of the defense.

(He also didn't shoot after his assailant was fleeing, or empty his weapon like this kid did, but that's just gravy.)

Pofarmer

"SPD major crimes detective wanted to keep taking statements from GZ to catch him in a lie."

Which is problematic in and of itself.

Another Bob

NK, to be blunt, you really need to get you head out the pile of social/cultural crap it's in.

In your view, do the facts indicate GZ should be standing trial for *anything*?

Danube of Thought

Is it UNJUST that GZ gets treated like a common thug and gets no benefit of the doubt because of politics?

You have to ask?

Pofarmer

"I think GZ. Pleads out to a homocide charge because the state has to get something from the charge because of the politics."

Then, This is an extremely dangerous time we are living in.

Some guy

NK, to be blunt, you really need to get you head out the pile of social/cultural crap it's in.

Blunt or unintentionally ironic?

MarkO

"I think GZ. Pleads out to a homocide charge because the state has to get something from the charge because of the politics."

This is just anther phrasing of the notion that there has to be some "fair" resolution of the case irrespective of the evidence--lack of evidence of a crime. Based on the State's pathetic offerings on Friday, I see no plea.

Why would it be "fair" for someone who has not committed a crime to go to jail? I await a rational response.

Chubby

aha! I just saw light. O'Mara got EXACTLY what he asked for. 10% x $150K = $15,000.

up until I read your post, I had been thinking Z had to come up with the full $150K, and had not quite understood some previous posts about bail bonds. etc.

So... O'Mara's victory that day was even bigger than I thought.

Pofarmer

St. trayvon is dead, someone must pau, MarkO. How bout we put one of the Parents in jail? That seems more fair, to me.

Chubby

my 12:52 was to el bango

((Judge thought so too, instead of no bail, it was $15k cash))

Pofarmer

O'mara had a food day. Bonus was making the prosecution look like a bunch of boobs.

NK

Bob and Dot so GZ is a no charge and the regular sort of thugs are always charged if the da has the votes. And if you defend yourself in a jurisdiction with a different type of da with different voters, it s ok if you re overcharged because you re the great white defendant in that jurisdiction. That s the justice system you want. You re cutting down all the trees like thomas more described.

Btw cecilt the point is Corey sought the maximum charge, she maxes the charges and lets the courts sort it out. You still haven t shown how GZ is a unique sort of martyr.

MarkO

On the known evidence, GZ is a no charge. It's all about the evidence, not the narrative.

Danube of Thought

Bob and Dot so GZ is a no charge and the regular sort of thugs are always charged if the da has the votes. And if you defend yourself in a jurisdiction with a different type of da with different voters, it s ok if you re overcharged because you re the great white defendant in that jurisdiction. That s the justice system you want.

I can make no sense at all out of that.

Ignatz

--Bob and Dot so GZ is a no charge and the regular sort of thugs are always charged if the da has the votes. And if you defend yourself in a jurisdiction with a different type of da with different voters, it s ok if you re overcharged because you re the great white defendant in that jurisdiction. That s the justice system you want.--

NK,
Even the Scholastics were charitable enough not to distort others' arguments when determining the number of angels on the head of a pin.

Pofarmer

"I can make no sense at all out of that."

Not just me, then.

Chubby

(("People lie...whether it's your husband explaining how lipstick got on his shirt"))

dd knows all about lying. he posted a while back that he himself would exaggerate his injuries if he were ever in predicament, and that was his major thesis as to why Z was lying, lol!!

Another Bob

Ig, forget it, he's rolling.

boris

"not to distort others' arguments"

indeed

Pofarmer

NK's thesis seems to be, that the neighboorhood watch guy who gets attacked and winds up shooting someone, should be treated exactly the same as the neighborhood drug dealer who's deal goes bad and winds up shooting someone.

Rick Ballard

Corey-Giuliani-Spitzer-Fitzgerald abused their office by routinely overcharging in order to develop a political reputation for use in political theater. The law and the courts are props and stage for their performance.

Corey is presently holding a 12 year old to adult standards for beating his 2 year old brother to death while attempting to elicit tears for the death of the innocent angel, 17 year old NO_LIMIT Grillntats, after he inadvertently sucker punched and bashed head against concrete of a Neighborhood Watch volunteer who had failed to disclose the fact that he was armed to Grillntats prior to the initiation of the inadvertent error.

It appears that the Corey Act has won another four year engagement so her performance[s] to date must be judged to be successful.

GMax

NK's thesis seems to be sprinkle in a little "profiling" and mugging for the camera and voila you have Angela Corey...

AliceH

My take is NK is saying unless we all devote the same or similar effort to read, research, and dispassionately analyse evidence v. prosecutor charges for every shooting case, we cannot have a justified position based on evidence or legality on THIS case. To discuss THIS case and disregard ALL others is to be a) biased in GZs favor over all other defendants who may also have been unjustly treated or b) evidence that we are not sincere about justice and actually like DAs that abuse their power due to political pressure.

NK: I welcome your corrections, additions, and clarifications to that.

Another Bob

And further, AliceH, that we must agree to subjecting ALL criminal defendants to the worst treatment received by ANY of them to demonstrate our moral cleanliness. Only after all of our hands are morally clean and all the wrongs have been righted may we begin drawing any distinctions between them.

All the innocent people imprisoned as a result are merely the price we must pay.

We must burn the village to save it.

Danube of Thought

Let's face it: if GZ were black, or TM white-Hispanic, neither we nor anyone else would be discussing this case. More important, although I can't prove it I believe no charge would have been filed.

And there lies the problem.

Captain Hate

Corey-Giuliani-Spitzer-Fitzgerald abused their office by routinely overcharging in order to develop a political reputation for use in political theater. The law and the courts are props and stage for their performance.

Ya know, even though I admire the job Rudy did in lifting NYC out of the Dinkensville sewer as mayor, he was a prick and a bully as a prosecutor, just like the other three.

MarkO

In the Milken, he was famously charged with "parking," and offense with no definition. His lawyers were smothering the DOJ counsel and Rudy knew he would not be able to bring home the big, political victory. What did he do then?

He followed the British method. He took hostages. He threatened to charge Milken's mother. That's right. His mother.

That was when Milken agreed to a bargain. That is why I have said the DOJ charges hanging over Zimmerman is like taking him hostage. That behavior should be criminal.

AliceH

Only after all of our hands are morally clean and all the wrongs have been righted may we begin drawing any distinctions between them.

Yes, Another Bob. I should have included that in my comment, but I'm glad I didn't because I couldn't have said it nearly so well.

pagar

"We must burn the village to save it."

Warned to flee their homes because Obama's friends are coming.

http://weaselzippers.us/2012/04/22/chicago-residents-warned-of-occupy-rioting-during-upcoming-nato-summit/

No American should have to live like this!

jimmyk

non-replacement matters because, although the day's pool is selected randomly from the population at large, once that selection is made the ultimate jury comes from that limited group of perhaps 30

I'm going to stick to my guns and say that randomly selecting a group of 30 from the population, and then randomly selecting six from that 30, has the same statistical properties as randomly selecting 6 from the general population. (Why is it 6, by the way?)

Of course, it may not be random, and certainly with the peremptory challenges, I would guess the probability is very high that there will be no blacks in the jury. If the pool is 30, there would have to be more than 6 blacks in the pool for O'Mara not to be able to ensure an all-white/Hispanic jury.

daddy

Excellent Bob Owens piece here damning a Daily Beast writer for calling for the sacrifice of George Zimmerman, regardless of his innocence, in order to accomplish the "greater good" of quieting the mob:

Daily Beast Columnist Politely Calls for George Zimmerman’s Lynching

Jack is Back!

daddy,

We have a whole thread on that.

Sara§

NK: I do not understand what you mean by the "wrong kind of defendant" What is the right kind, in your mind. Do you have a bias against Hispanics, or Neighborhood Watch, or short guys, or maybe guys who wear a boot camp haircut? Do you believe in trial by mob? Do you work for Corey?
for Crump?

You have wanted to hang Zimmerman from Day One with no regard for evidence or the law. Do you believe in trial by newspaper and MSNBC? Just what is your position? It is you who seems to think that Martin is the wrong kind of victim and that GZ is exactly the right kind of defendant, the kind that deserves to be railroaded into jail because the prosecutor is afraid of backlash that will hurt her career.

I personally feel it is always the wrong kind of defendant, back, white, tall, short, thin, fat, old, young who gets prosecuted because of public opinion rather than the law and evidence. Apparently, you do not.

cboldt

NK: -- But take a look at JiB link to the Corey self defense case in Jacksonville Yes that kid killed 3 attackers, but it seems undisputed they laid in wait with specific intent to seriously injure him. --


A fine line keeps Jacksonville teen jailed

Seay has been in the Duval County jail since December 2009, charged with second-degree murder after shooting at three brothers who jumped him and a friend in retaliation for an earlier fight. One of the brothers, 20-year-old Jeremy Ervin Godboldt, was killed. ...


Circuit Judge Adrian G. Soud said he made a "razor-close" decision last year to deny Seay stand-your-ground immunity. ...


In a statement nearly four hours into questioning by police, Seay said he was just trying to scare his assailants, Soud noted in an April 2011 hearing.

"'They were going to the car, and I didn't know what for,' " the judge recalled from Seay's recorded interview. " 'I just shot in the air.' "


Excerpts from the article, just for readers convenience here. One killed, shooter seems to not have been shooting in fear for his life, etc. Would have to look at the arrest record, but I suspect Seay was arrested at the scene or shortly after, and held from that point forward. In other words, not a case where the police found absence of probable cause.

Danube of Thought

Jimmyk, Florida criminal juries consist of six jurors.

Let's say toda's pool of 30, randomly selected from the poulation at large, exactly mirrors the racial makeup of that populatio, so we have 3 blacks and 27 others. Probability that the first juror seated is not black is 27/30. If that happens, the probability the next one isn't black is 26/29. And so on.

jimmyk

Let's say toda's pool of 30, randomly selected from the poulation at large, exactly mirrors the racial makeup of that populatio, so we have 3 blacks and 27 others.

Not a valid premise. If randomly selected, it could have 30 whites and no blacks, 29/1, 28/2, and so on.

Cecil Turner

Florida criminal juries consist of six jurors.

Except for capital cases, in which there are 12.

Not a valid premise. If randomly selected, it could have 30 whites and no blacks, 29/1, 28/2, and so on.

Doesn't matter. Non-replacement reduces the chance of an all-white jury with any sample (unless the whole jury pool is all-white). If you run the numbers on a spreadsheet, for the example DoT gives, it's 53.1% with replacement (or from a large number pool), and 49.9% in the representative 30-person sample without replacement. (And again, the difference rises as the numbers of prospective jurors dwindles.)

jimmyk

To clarify, once you know the makeup of the pool, then of course non-replacement matters, but since the pool is being selected at random, we can ignore non-replacement. If I had the time, I could compute the probabilities, but I'd rather rely on the logic that selecting 30 from a large population, then six from that 30, has exactly the same probability distribution as selecting six from a large population.

windansea

NK

my advice is to stop digging, you are in over your head here and your liberal "slip" is showing

you have been reduced to arguing your feelings about this case vs facts, evidence and laws.

you want justice but I don't think your understanding is very clear

"We hold these truths as self evident, all men are created equal"

there is no race involved in this case for most commenters here at JOM, if facts and evidence come out that reveal Zimmerman as cold hearted murderer, you will see no support for him here.

we just haven't seen any so far


Clarice

Exactly, Capt. And now it's time that action was taken to burn the SDNY prosecution handbook and punish anyone who ever uses it again. No one is safe from such prosecutorial overreach.

MJW

I'm going to stick to my guns and say that randomly selecting a group of 30 from the population, and then randomly selecting six from that 30, has the same statistical properties as randomly selecting 6 from the general population.

I have no ideas about any subtleties in the broader argument about preemptive challenges, but I agree with that. The total number of possible distinct juries doesn't change, and the probability that any particular group of 6 people will be chosen doesn't change.

Danube of Thought

"Not a valid premise."

Give me whatever premise you want. Once the pool of 30 has been determined, the fact of non-replacement means that the likelihood of an all-white jury will be less than it would be with replacement.

I assume that this is a non-capital case, and that the jury will therefore be six.

The comments to this entry are closed.

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