No Grand Jury In Trayvon Martin Case

The special prosecutor looking at state charges in the Trayvon Martin killing won't be going to a grand jury; CNN, WaPo.

I don't know what it means.  A decision by a grand jury not to indict might have carried more weight with the public than a decision by the prosecutor not to press charges (although if an aggressive prosecutor can indict a ham sandwich, can't a passive prosecutor fail to get an indictment against Al Capone?). 

And despite normal grand jury secrecy rules, a Florida grand jury can issue a special report explaining their conclusions even in the absence of an indictment.

Whether or not an indictment is returned, the grand jury subsequently may issue a report or presentment. That report will contain the grand jury's findings and may make recommendations. Florida Statutes Section 905.28(1) (2007) provides a mechanism for redacting or suppressing presentments which name unindicted individuals...

Applying my "Sauce For The Goose" doctrine, I  infer that a prosecutor can also issue a report in the absence of an indictment.  However, clearing that up would be a great clue as to where this case is headed, because I don't think the public will stand for an announcement of no charges unless accompanied by a comprehensive report.

So, either this prosecutor will be charging Zimmerman or she will be issuing a report. If the law does not allow her to issue a report except by way of a grand jury, then Zimmerman will be charged.  If the law does allow a prosecutor's report, then toss a coin or find your answer here.

MY TWO CENTS: Maybe the forensics make Zimmerman out to be a liar.  But what we have seen publicly makes me think we are miles from a path to a conviction.  With that "public info" caveat, I predict no charges.

Comments

[cboldt]

If the information can come out via public records (public records MANDATES certain material be provided on request), then the prosecutor can put it out on her own volition.

Said another way, unless there is a prohibition on the release (and there is, in the grand jury chapter, of certain materials - hence the statute that carves out an exception), then it can be released.

[GMAX]

A commenter on another blog that had something on St. Trayvon hit it on the head I think:

Welcome to the CIndy Sheehan club. As long as your child's death advances the liberal agenda, the media and liberal superstars will treat you like kings, lavish you with publicity and attention, and promise that they can magically transform your child's tragic death into a new political movement that will change the world.

Once circumstances change, and there is no political benefit to exploiting your child, they will kick you to the curb and you'll never hear from them again.

And of course that is exactly what Al Sharpton did this weekend, hanging in Harlem instead of marching in Sanford. I wonder why?

[cboldt]

More succinctly, if she had taken this to a grand jury, and obtained a no bill, the hurdle to public release of information would be higher, not lower.

F.S. 905.28 - Publication of report or presentment; motion to repress.

That points to F.S.119.07 - Inspection and copying of [public] records.

[cboldt]

If she charges, Zimmerman has a right to discover the evidence against him, and the state has 15 days to cough up what it intends to use to obtain a conviction.

[Tom Maguire]

That doesn't seem to address what happens if she does not charge.

Are the raw police investigations and forensic reports really "public records"? Or, if she writes a report addressed to the governor, does that become a public record? I could see the latter more easily than the former.

The city did release the 911 calls and some other stuff, and IIRC someone was seeking the 911 calls under a FOIA request.

[cboldt]

Not a structured walk through, but see F.S. 119.011 - Definitions, including "Criminal investigative information" and a concept of "active." At this point, information is withheld from the public based on there being an active criminal investigation. This statute is the basis for Corey's request to the town of Sanford to remove evidence from its website.

F.S. 119.071(2)(c) 1. exempts active criminal investigative information from the open public records policy of 119.07

119.071(h) recites the material that remains confidential no matter what (victims of sex and child abuse crimes, only), and also gives an allowance to law enforcement to disclose information.

[Neo]

This feels like the "fix" is in.

"Without an arrest there is no standing for a civil case awarding monetary damages to Tracy Martin and Sybrina Fuller against George Zimmerman, the HOA for The Retreat At Twin Lakes, and possibly the City of Sanford and all of their respective insurance companies.”

This is why the family is demanding that Zimmerman be arrested immediately. His arrest would open the door to riches without ever requiring that he be convicted of anything.

[cboldt]

I don't think the question is purely one of public records. Corey is allowed to release more than the public is allowed to obtain by request. The question is what is Corey prohibited from releasing - and if there was a GJ, she'd be prohibited from releasing what happened in that room.

Your recollection of the release of 911 and other information by Sanford is correct. Crump was agitating for those, and the town was hoping, I'm sure, that release would facilitate resolution rather than inflame passion and delay resolution.

The state can release what it wants, outside of a few narrow prohibitions. I can't imagine that the governor of anybody else would object to Corey using the available evidence to justify her decision, as she changes the status of the case from "active" to "inactive."

[jimboster]

She's not going to the Grand jury on the off chance they won't indict. She'd be crucified if they didn't. Nope, she'll indict him. Of course, if she doesn't, then she's one of the most courageous politicians in the entire country.

[cboldt]

119.01 General state policy on public records.--

(1) It is the policy of this state that all state, county, and municipal records are open for personal inspection and copying by any person. Providing access to public records is a duty of each agency.

119.071, linked above, provides for exemptions from this general policy. Active criminal investigative information is exempt (from the public access policy).

If Corey doesn't release the evidence, and she concludes the investigation closed and inactive, then I believe a request for the criminal investigative information becomes a public record, not subject to an exemption from the public access policy.

[Jim Rhoads a/k/a vjnjagvet]

She will not no bill unless she has an open and shut case. If there is any doubt, she will charge. If she no bills, she will have to issue a detailed report to the Governor and make it public. The primary objective of such report must be to delegitimize as much as possible all cries for drumhead justice, so it will have to ask and answer the questions we have been discussing here -- maybe some we haven't anticipated.

I am sure she knows a no bill will be flyspecked by local and national news media and, of course, the Sharpton/Jealous/Jackson axis and their minions.

[cboldt]

Absence of arrest doesn't immunize the town of Sanford. It stands in a completely different position from Zimmerman.

The HOA likewise doesn't have statutory immunity, and can be sued no matter what. They might offer a settlement for a nominal fee (less than $50,000), to avoid the cost of litigation. The HOA has plenty of argument in its favor, including that Zimmerman was, at the time, nothing more than a resident.

[Jane (where is Jon Corzine?)]

"Without an arrest there is no standing for a civil case awarding monetary damages to Tracy Martin and Sybrina Fuller against George Zimmerman, the HOA for The Retreat At Twin Lakes, and possibly the City of Sanford and all of their respective insurance companies.”

Not true - a criminal conviction requires proof beyond a reasonable doubt and in a civil case you only need a preponderance of evidence. Failure to arrest, prosecute or convict in no way prohibits a civil case for negligence.

[Bruce]

I have heard the argument, in particular, over at volokh.com, that the Martins need an arrest for a wrongful death suit. But, it is a matter of statutory interpretation, and I am unconvinced that they could proceed, absent a conviction. Or, indeed, whether it would be wise to do so, given the one sided nature of the attorneys' fees.

Here (again) is the relevant statute:

776.032 Immunity from criminal prosecution and civil action for justifiable use of force.—
(1) A person who uses force as permitted in s. 776.012, s. 776.013, or s. 776.031 is justified in using such force and is immune from criminal prosecution and civil action for the use of such force, unless the person against whom force was used is a law enforcement officer, as defined in s. 943.10(14),... As used in this subsection, the term “criminal prosecution” includes arresting, detaining in custody, and charging or prosecuting the defendant.
(2) A law enforcement agency may use standard procedures for investigating the use of force as described in subsection (1), but the agency may not arrest the person for using force unless it determines that there is probable cause that the force that was used was unlawful.
(3) The court shall award reasonable attorney’s fees, court costs, compensation for loss of income, and all expenses incurred by the defendant in defense of any civil action brought by a plaintiff if the court finds that the defendant is immune from prosecution as provided in subsection (1).

Haven't looked at the caselaw for this statute, and, in particular, the last section awarding attorneys' fees, but absent some caselaw supporting the proposition that a mere arrest would immunize the Martins from this part of the statute, I would be petrified if I were in their shoes, or in the shoes of their attorneys, of trying to prosecute this case civilly.

Not being an expert here, I think it will be fascinating to see how this plays out.

[cboldt]

Jane - there is a statutory bar to civil claims, if Zimmerman is found to have been justified in his use of deadly force.

If Zimmerman is not arrested, he is immune from civil claims - and if some lawyer tries it, the court will order plaintiff to pay defendant Zimmerman's costs.

If Zimmerman is arrested, he can and will file a pre-trial motion to dismiss, on the basis that his use of deadly force was justified self defense. If the judge grants the motion, he is granting immunity from trial.

In other words, to lose immunity, two things have to happen: prosecutor indicts and arrests Zimmerman; a judge rejects a motion to dismiss based on justified use of deadly force in self defense.

[matt]

I think Obama is about to have his "Let them eat pizza" moment. LUN

[GMAX]

Well if the War on Women meme is going as well as the War on the Supreme court, we will stop hearing about it in very short order:

Three weeks ago, 29% of Republicans gave the Supreme Court positive marks for its job performance; now that number has climbed to 54%. Similarly, among voters not affiliated with either of the major political parties, good or excellent ratings for the court have increased from 26% in mid-March to 42% now.

Democrats’ views of the court are largely unchanged.

OOPS.

[James D.]

I tihnk we can file this one under "appalling but not surprising":

Del. Eleanor Holmes Norton (D-D.C.) on Tuesday will convene a meeting of her Commission on Black Men and Boys in Washington to discuss "Lessons from the Life and Death of Trayvon Martin."...

"I commend our community for the almost spontaneous rallies for justice for Trayvon Martin," Holmes Norton said last week.

"Almost spontaneous". The mind boggles.

[Bruce]

My guess right now is that there is not enough evidence to show probable cause that Zimmerman did, in fact, not act in self-defense.

Yes, the special prosecutor does have the right, and the power to charge him without a grand jury indictment. And, this special prosecutor apparently does do so.

But, apparently, that is rare in capital cases, and, probably even in lesser homicide and manslaughter cases. Sending the case to the grand jury is CYA. If she doesn't do it, the decision to charge on her own will look intensely political. And, if Zimmerman were not convicted, then that would seem to open her up to a lot of negative things, such as ethics complaints, civil rights law suits, etc. (and, by then, Eric Holder may no longer be the AG).

She might be able to survive a not guilty verdict at trial, but I think it less likely if she can't make the probable cause of no self-defense stick at a preliminary hearing.

As I said, I am no expert here, and it will be interesting.

[cboldt]

-- I am unconvinced that they could proceed, absent a conviction. --

The ultimate immunity is immunity from TRIAL. If Zimmerman goes through a criminal trial, then obviously he does not have immunity from trial.

The statute also grants immunity from arrest, but he could be wrongfully arrested. The statute also grants immunity from charging, but he could be wrongfully charged. If there is a wrongful arrest and a wrongful charge, Zimmerman's last hope is to win a pre-trial motion that his use of force was justified.

And then he could sue the state for wrongful arrest. All in all, the statute encourages a sober evaluation of the evidence, before the vast power of the state is used against a person who has had the misfortune of having to resort to self defense.

[sbw]

There is inside baseball. There is inside inside baseball. Then there is this enigma rapped in a skittles wrapper.

Oh, look! A unicorn!

[NK]

Under Florida law, how does the Special Prosecutor "charge" Zimmerman without a GJ indictment?

[Jane (where is Jon Corzine?)]

Jane - there is a statutory bar to civil claims, if Zimmerman is found to have been justified in his use of deadly force.

So I see. Thanks Bruce, Cboldt. It's a weird statute tho. No arrest is not the same as "a finding" of justification. Or maybe it is.

[Jane (where is Jon Corzine?)]

Matt,

That's great! As usual.

[cboldt]

-- If there is any doubt, she will charge. --

She will have to articulate, based on evidence, how she finds probable cause that Zimmerman's use of deadly force was not justified. What makes this tough is the "based on evidence" requirement (in combination with the law of assault and self defense).

She has to have a theory of what happened, where Zimmerman lacks reasonable basis to fear serious injury or death, and that theory has to find support in at least some part of the evidence.

She can't make up law to find Zimmerman culpable - such as he should not have exited his vehicle, or not been armed.

She's smart, and will also understand the greater ramifications of this decision. She can either encourage thugs, or encourage judicious resort to self defense.

[narciso]

The Ewok not only gets the Zimmerman case, wrong but misses large parts of the Tinker
Tailor remake wrong, including the name of one
of the characters, and LeCarre's motivation back then, not now.

[cboldt]

Jane - there has no doubt been a homicide. At some point, a formal conclusion issues from the state. If Corey had not been appointed, that conclusion would be out of the GJ today, under Wolfinger's guidance.

If the formal conclusion is that the use of force was justified, then immunity attaches. There is no arrest, no charge, and no scheduling of a trial.

NK - I don't know what term is used in Florida, but "charge" and "indictment" can have the same legal effect as the starting point for plea bargain, trial, etc.

[NK]

Cboldt-- see my 4:00 question. If the Special Prosecutor files a "bill" or "Charges" why does she owe anyone a theory? to whom does she owe a'finding' of probable cause, don't the charges 'speak for themselves'. I suppose she'd have to articulate PC in response to a motion to dismiss, but what would make her say anything before then?

[cboldt]

Closing that bold tag.

[NK]

@418-- In Fla. who other than a GJ returns a bill or charge?

[Bruce]

cbolt - thanks. You obviously have a lot more experience in this realm than many of the rest of us (as evidenced, in my case, by my fumbling around the point you made so clearly).

[Bruce]

cbolt - thanks. You obviously have a lot more experience in this realm than many of the rest of us (as evidenced, in my case, by my fumbling around the point you made so clearly).

[Bruce]

Wonder if bold got turned on? Hopefully it is turned off now.

[cboldt]

NK - If Corey charges, she files a statement of the charge. It is similar to an indictment, in that it states, with particularity, the evidence (including contested findings of fact) and the statute that has been violated. This is owed to the defendant, so he or she can defend against the charge.

If she charges, she is implicitly asserting there is probable cause, and then some! The act of charging implies that she believes the state can prove its case beyond a reasonable doubt.

Corey has articulated that her hurdle is different from the hurdle police have to justify detention (which is merely probable cause); and pointed out that prosecutorial ethics require a good faith belief that the state can prove the charge to the much higher standard of beyond a reasonable doubt.

We are talking here, about finding a person guilty of committing a criminal act.

[cboldt]

In FL, the several state attorney offices have the power to bring a criminal charge. ONLY if the charge is a capital offense (e.g., murder), is presentment of the evidence to a grand jury mandatory.

[Bruce]

So, she could bring lesser charges, such as manslaughter, without a grand jury, but would that be prudent?

[Neo]

NEW YORK (CNNMoney) -- A federal judge approved the $26 billion settlement deal reached between the nation's five largest mortgage lenders and the attorneys general of 49 states and the District of Columbia over foreclosure processing abuses. Judge Rosemary Collyer in the U.S. District Court for the District of Columbia approved consent judgments with Bank of America (BAC, Fortune 500), Citibank (C, Fortune 500), JPMorgan Chase (JPM, Fortune 500), Wells Fargo (WFC, Fortune 500), and Ally Financial (the former GMAC) late Thursday.

This clears the way for foreclosures, which had been held up in 2011, to go ahead at a rate far exceeding that of 2010.

2012 will be the "Year of the Foreclosure" and part of the Obama legacy.

[Gus]

Maybe Skittles Martins' could collect a few dollars from the GROOVY NEW REALLY COOL HOLDERS PEEPS BLACK PANTY PARTY!!

Just a little something out of petty cash or the LYNCH WHITEY fund.

[NK]

Neo-- I think we'll see the lenders waiting until after the election before they start foreclosing and clearing the market.

[cboldt]

Any charge that is not a capital offense can be made by the state attorney, without involving a GJ. Corey has handled hundreds of homicide self-defense cases over the course of her career, and ZERO of them were put before a grand jury.

I'm going to guess that the general reason for this "absence of deference to the public" is that grand juries might invent law; and the prosecutor is obliged to handle the case in full conformity with the law. I can imagine errors going both ways, with some culpable defendants avoiding charge; and some innocent defendants being forced to undergo trial. By that last group, I don't mean the ones who are tried and found no guilty - I mean the ones that are literally innocent.

[jack moss]

They'll be no charges in this case . http://macsmind.com/wordpress/2012/04/facts-as-they-are-in-the-trayvon-martin-case/

[XBradTC]

Just spitballin' here, but if she does charge Zimmermann, there will be an arrest, an arraignment before the judge (where the defendant is informed of the charges against him and invited to enter a plea), and most likely, given the absence of an indictment from a GJ, a probably cause hearing in which the state must make its case that it does indeed have probable cause to try the defendant, and at which the defense may rebut that PC evidence.

All of that would happen before the judge would hold the case over for trial.

At which point immunity from civil charges ceases to attach, I have no idea.

[XBradTC]

As to "capital cases," is that murder? Or is that murder with aggravating circumstances which justify the death penalty?

[cboldt]

Capital cases are any that carry the possibility of a death sentence. Murder 1, for example, but there are others.

First-degree murder; felony murder; capital drug trafficking; capital sexual battery.

[cboldt]

-- At which point immunity from civil charges ceases to attach, I have no idea. --

There is no parallel to arrest and indictment in a civil case, so the issue become whether or not defendant can stand trial. Immunity is lost when the trial judge says so. If there is a criminal trial, then there is not immunity from trial, and there can be a civil trial.

[cboldt]

In the terminology of your question, immunity ceases to attach when the criminal trial judge finds sufficient probable cause to support going ahead with a trial, in this case, a trial for use of excessive force.

At the same time, the defendant moves, pre-trial, for dismissal on grounds that the use of force was justified. The judge would deny this motion. At that point, end of immunity.

[Strawman Cometh]

It occurs to me that Corey and Gov. Scott maybe requesting an audience with the 0bama - to present the evidence and explain the Florida law to him (no jokes about how long that would take) - with the idea 0 could do a non-cracker, calm the mau-maus press statement, complete with TOTUS, immediately after her announcement.

Would he agree to do it?

[XBradTC]

Thanks, cboldt. That was my understanding, but INAL, and especially not a FL Crim lawyer.

[Strawman Cometh]

I meant to add that bgates could write it.

[Jane]

Strawman,

I would be shocked.

[cboldt]

IANAL either, not versed in crim law, much, and only know about FL statutes by looking them up. But, IANAL only because my work doesn't require me to have passed a state bar exam.

[cboldt]

I would think the most that Scott would do is inform Obama in advance. Obama can decide what he'll do, if anything, without being told to by some peon governor and his lackey prosecutors.

[Sonny E]

WFTV: "Sources: George Zimmerman could be arrested soon"

LUN

[matt]

I guess Paul Ryan is legit. Kruggy is going after him with both barrels in today's NY Fishwrap.

[Sue]

WFTV needs better writers. Or better editors. Reading that was torture.

[clarice feldman]

OT: A hilarious piece on the state of the newspaper business.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/09/business/media/the-return-of-the-newspaper-barons.html

[hit and run]

TM:
With that "public info" caveat, I predict no charges.

I was really hoping for a patented TM "BOLD PREDICTION".

Or at least a 70% one.

[Jim,MtnViewCA,USA]

http://detroit.cbslocal.com/2012/04/09/president-obamas-1-million-pizza-party-in-detroit/

No more Little Caesar's pizza in _my_ house.

Of course, it is pretty crappy pizza. Probably only people on welfare would buy it. So the Obama support makes sense from that perspective.

[Extraneus]

IANAL

Wow. Could have foold me! Your comments on this matter have been invaluable, cbolt. I think I might have skipped some of these posts if it weren't for your contributions. I'm not sure if that means I should thank you or curse you, but I'm going with the former.

[Rob Crawford]

Failure to arrest, prosecute or convict in no way prohibits a civil case for negligence.

What cboldt said -- Florida law specifically immunizes someone who uses lethal force in lawful self defense.

The reason for this is there have been people financially ruined by the heirs of their attempted murderers.

[cboldt]

Extraneus - curses are fine too, as long as it's attention. I graduated law school cum laude, but my "practice" doesn't involve work considered the practice of law, so I never took a bar exam. So, I understand the vernacular - and can get to an understanding of most issues, in legal terms, without too much self-education effort.

Not meaning to argue from authority - I think it's better if the statutes speak for themselves, with a little help to get over the complicated parts.

[Rob Crawford]

On Obama issuing a calming statement:

Would he agree to do it?

Would monkeys issue from my posterior?

[xbradtc]

If I recall, it was that fact, and questionable prosecutions of people acting in self defense, that led Florida to revamp its self defense laws in the first place.

[Rob Crawford]

WFTV: "Sources: George Zimmerman could be arrested soon"

Sources: Everyone, everywhere, could be arrested soon. No idea if the charges would stick, or if there's even evidence of crime, but you *could* be arrested.

[Extraneus]

Is there any doubt that neighborhood watchmen are backing off after all this? And that's a good thing, right? Good for whom is the question.

Bill Cosby:

“We’ve got to get the gun out of the hands of people who are supposed to be on neighborhood watch,” said Mr. Cosby, whose remarks were the first he has made publicly about the case.

“Without a gun, I don’t see Mr. Zimmerman approaching Trayvon by himself,” Mr. Cosby explained. “The power-of-the-gun mentality had him unafraid to confront someone. Even police call for backup in similar situations.

“When you carry a gun, you mean to harm somebody, kill somebody,” he said.

Btw, I've carried, on and off, for over twenty years. I've never harmed or killed anybody, nor have I ever meant to do so.

(And sorry, I know it's cboldt.)

[clarice feldman]

GZ wasn't carrying a gun in connection with his neighborhood watch activities. He was heading out to shop when he noticed TM and just happened to have his perfectly legal concealed gun on his person.

[DebinNC]

“When you carry a gun, you mean to harm somebody, kill somebody,” he said.

Any guesses how many decades it's been since Bill Cosby and/or his family have gone anywhere without armed bodyguards in tow?

[Extraneus]

Well I'd carry if I were volunteering for neighborhood watch. Who wouldn't? (Unless they didn't have a permit, I mean.)

And who'd volunteer for neighborhood watch after this, gun or not?

[xbradtc]

DebinNC, well, his son went out without an armed bodyguard.

And was murdered.

By a man with a gun.

[clarice feldman]

Actually I think his son was shot to death and had no security detail when it happened,Deb.

[Extraneus]

Good point, Deb. Bill Cosby: hypocrite.

[cboldt]

Bill Cosby's attitude is colored by the murder of his son, Ennis.

[Gus]

Oh Dear Bill Cosby, you have shit on your shoe!!!

If Skittles Martin had thought Whitey Zimmerman had a gun. Skittles probably would not have assaulted Whitey!!

Out law fists!!!!

[Extraneus]

San Diego Police Department:

Decades ago crime rates across the U.S. increased at an alarming pace. Citizens and law enforcement agencies focused on developing crime prevention programs to help reduce this growing trend. In 1972 The National Sheriff’s Association organized the National Neighborhood Watch Program. This pilot program was funded by the Law Enforcement Assistance Administration of the U.S. Department of Justice and was designed to enlist the participation of citizens with law enforcement to help reduce and prevent crime. Since then Neighborhood Watch has become one of the most effective means of fighting crime in our communities. This is because you and your neighbors are the ones who really know what is going on in your area, most likely to be the first to see a crime and call for help, and are in the best position to: (1) Report code violations, unsafe street conditions, etc. that degrade the quality of life in your area, (2) Take property owners to small claims court to abate nuisances, (3) Keep your block clean and free of graffiti, and (4) Provide a safe environment for your children.

[cboldt]

I'd say all, but there must be an exception or two, all people who carry concealed are LESS likely to close distance with a stranger when they carry. The stakes are so much higher. Being armed always (same caveat as above, a few exceptions) results in better behavior, more polite, etc.

An armed person runs some risk of being found guilty and liable for mouthing off while armed, as the mouthing off might be viewed as "starting it."

[Gus]

What if ENNIS COSBY had a gun too?? Would the outcome have been worse??

What if Whitey Zimmerman DID NOT have a gun. Would Whitey be alive.

Ahhhh the liberal template as stinky as it is stupid.

[clarice feldman]

I believe one of the posters here said that the first rule of the neighborhood watch group he was on was not to carry a gun. As I noted GZ was not carrying in connection with his regular neighborhood watch duties..He was on his way out of the complex when he noticed TM behaving suspiciously.

[Extraneus]

Colorado Springs Police Department:

Neighborhood Watch Depends On You!

Neighborhood Watch does depend on you calling 911 for in-progress emergency calls or 444-7000 for non-emergency situations. Suspicious activity calls can be handled with a minimum of personnel compared to the investigation of an actual crime. Do not hesitate to call as often as necessary. We expect more calls from Neighborhood Watch groups.

[Melinda Romanoff]

Deb-

I remember back in the late '70s and early '80s there used to be a police car parked at the end of his Amherst driveway.

[Ignatz]

--I'd say all, but there must be an exception or two, all people who carry concealed are LESS likely to close distance with a stranger when they carry. The stakes are so much higher.--

Exactly. I made this point before.
I am more circumspect about any even slightly aggressive behavior when carrying, which is nearly always.

[Gregory Koster]

From Rob Crawford: "On Obama issuing a calming statement:

Would he agree to do it?

Would monkeys issue from my posterior?"

Come now, Rob. The Won has a great record of pouring oil on troubled waters. Ask BP, or anyone owning waterfront property on the Gulf. Too, he's especially likely to pour oil if he can set it afire, so the press can show how Green he is, burning up that excess oil so we will all use the wind emitting from his maw...

Cboldt, tell me what you think of this tea leaf reading:

a) GZ is not charged as he is found to have justification. My reading is this would make a civil suit impossible.

b) GZ is charged. In that case, I think a civil suit would be deferred on the theory that if GZ is convicted and tossed in the klink, Florida will have done all the work necessary for a civil suit, leaving any sucker insurers to be rammed into the lemon squeezer at the rapacious family's leisure.

c) GZ is charged, but acquitted. This would not forestall a civil suit, but could make the odds against it much longer.

The Won of course wants this to drag on for as long a possible, allowiing all sorts of pious fraudulent sanctimony about Saint Trayvon and His Family's Trademarked Slogans, Soon To Be Traded on the Stock Exchange.

What say you?

Neo, good point on the Foreclosure Follies of 2012. To be sure The Won will push for foreclosures to be deferred, but that will cost the banks a whale of a lot of carrying costs. I doubt if they'll sit still for that. So what sort of bribe can he give the banks? Let any bribery come out and even Saint Trayvon can't cover up that bankster smell. Of course should The Won lose, look for masses of foreclosures, along with anything else Harry Reid and other such swine can do to wreck the economy and get even with the voters.

[Melinda Romanoff]

And I had completely forgotten about Ennis.

Foot fault. Ghaaaaa.

[Dublindave]

“Without a gun, I don’t see Mr. Zimmerman approaching Trayvon by himself,” Mr. Cosby explained. “The power-of-the-gun mentality had him unafraid to confront someone. Even police call for backup in similar situations"

Nailed it!

I'll even go one further;I believe that because Martin was a kid walking around with a bag of skittles in his hand,Zimmerman felt better about confronting him.

Had Martin been a 250lb black 30 year old would Zimmerman been so brave?

I have a feeling that theory will be put to the test in the next few months!

[matt]

As I was always taught, if you carry a firearm you had better be ready to use it and you had better be ready to disable your target.

There are plenty of neighborhood watches around the country that do not carry firearms that seem to work just fine.

Mr. Cosby has the right to his own opinion, but is right in that firearms take dangerous situations to a higher and sometimes fatal level.

What I do not like is the resort to firearms by even law enforcement officers under less that life threatening conditions, which we are seeing more and more of.

In Pasadena an unarmed black kid was shot and killed by a cop because a victim reported that he was robbed at gunpoint, which opened the door to a prompt use of deadly force.

Here in Orange County, a Marine was shot and killed by a Sheriff's Deputy in front of his children allegedly for posing a danger by getting behind the wheel of his truck at 4 AM and not responding to the officer's orders.

The taking of life is a very serious business and should be done in only the most dire circumstances.

[cboldt]

"Without a gun, I don't see Mr. Zimmerman approaching Trayvon by himself," Mr. Cosby explained.

Assumes Zimmerman endeavored to get in talking distance of Trayvon.

Which witnesses would the state offer for the proposition that Zimmerman is guilty of manslaughter?

[clarice feldman]

bubu, Cosby's not been here to my knowledge so we can forgive him for not knowing the facts. But you have been and this bit is carp as usual:

“Without a gun, I don’t see Mr. Zimmerman approaching Trayvon by himself,” Mr. Cosby explained. “The power-of-the-gun mentality had him unafraid to confront someone. Even police call for backup in similar situations"

Nailed it!

It is uncontested that GZ called the cops several times in the course of this event and began as soon as he spotted TM.

[Jim,MtnViewCA,USA]

Clarice, I believe this is DooDah, not BuBu.

[pagar]

"2012 will be the "Year of the Foreclosure"

This one case has been going on since 2007. I predict thousands if not millions of foreclosure buyers will regret ever having anything to do with foreclosures.

http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2012/04/judge-rules-wells-fargo-engages-in-reprehensible-systemic-accounting-abuses-on-mortgages-hit-with-3-1-million-punitive-damages-for-one-loan.html

According to the writeup :This is not the 1st time for Wells Fargo

"Norwest Mortgage, Inc., n/k/a Wells Fargo, was assessed $2,000,000 in exemplary damagesin
Slick

v. Norwest Mortgage, Inc.

for charging postpetition attorneys fees to debtors’ accountswithout disclosing the fees to anyone.

Four years after the ruling in
Slick
, Jones found that WellsFargo continued to charge undisclosed postpetition fees despite that multi-million dollar damageassessment."

[cboldt]

Gregory: in your scenario "b", conviction of a criminal charge, there is no reason, other than can't get money from a turnip, that Martin's estate would not sue Zimmerman.

In scenario "c", undergoing a criminal trial but being acquitted, I agree that this provides some sort of disadvantage to the plaintiff in a civil trial. But, always the evidence is the evidence. OJ Simpson escaped criminal conviction because the standard of proof is high; and on black animosity toward whitey in general (with some substantial help from testimony about Furhman's use of the word "nigger."). The same evidence, under a preponderance of the evidence standard, resulted in finding civil liability.

The evidence and facts in this case are much different, but the same principles apply. In both the criminal and civil cases, the judge or jury would have to find that Zimmerman's use of deadly force was NOT based on reasonable fear of serious injury or death. It's a signal that he is civilly liable (use of force was not justified), if he is found criminally guilty for the same thing. But measuring the strength of an acquittal is not so easy.

I agree that the left wants this as a cause. It already has that, no matter what. The cause becomes perpetual the moment a no bill is announced. It lasts long enough if a charge is announced. It's politically useful no matter what, because the press has filled the publics mind with lies disguised as news - Zimmerman is guilty, and now the justice system is "on trial."

[Extraneus]

A federal judge approved the $26 billion settlement deal reached between the nation's five largest mortgage lenders and the attorneys general of 49 states and the District of Columbia over foreclosure processing abuses.

Anyone know where this money goes? Harmed parties or groups like ACORN?

[cboldt]

-- He was heading out to shop when he noticed TM and just happened to have his perfectly legal concealed gun on his person. --

I bet, in hindsight, he wishes he hadn't carried it. When he speaks out, see if that is not one of his remarks.

[xbradtc]

I bet, in hindsight, he wishes he hadn't carried it. When he speaks out, see if that is not one of his remarks.

I dunno. The standard saying is "It's better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6."

[Ignatz]

--I have a feeling that theory will be put to the test in the next few months!--

I take that exclamation mark to be one of anticipation on the part of rugged wee Davey.

[narciso]

Was there a point to the previous story, because I didn't see it.

[Dublindave]

bubu, Cosby's not been here to my knowledge so we can forgive him for not knowing the facts. But you have been and this bit is carp as usual:

“Without a gun, I don’t see Mr. Zimmerman approaching Trayvon by himself,” Mr. Cosby explained. “The power-of-the-gun mentality had him unafraid to confront someone. Even police call for backup in similar situations"

"It is uncontested that GZ called the cops several times in the course of this event and began as soon as he spotted TM."

And I think it's uncontested that he didn't wait for them to come and do their job,so Cosby's point about bravado overriding commen sense is still valid.

[narciso]

Has one ever seen defense attorneys like the aforementioned Andrea Black, act more like prosecutors.

[bgates]

I think it's uncontested that he didn't wait for them to come and do their job

Each of the first two pairs of words in that quote are incorrect.

[narciso]

There's a whole lot of Inigo Montoya there,

[Extraneus]

If you substitute "lie" for "think," the whole thing and all other comments are correct.

[narciso]

Meanwhile these are not the droids one is looking for;

http://creepingsharia.wordpress.com/2012/04/09/maryland-muslim-gets-25-years-in-military-bomb-plot-jihad-drawings-found-in-cell/