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April 12, 2012

Comments

Clarice

Holder's onduct in this matter is every bit as outrageous as the media's and Sharpton and Jackson's has been.

Porchlight

NK, according to Wiki the 12 year old was indicted by a grand jury and Corey decided to try him as an adult. There was no self-defense claim, obviously.

Still apples and oranges.

NK

cboldt-- did Corey file a legal brief as part of the information indicting the wife explaining why self defense did not apply? Did she file a legal brief in the information explaning why the 12yo was an adult? I really doubt it. Unless you can show me that in those real world Corey cases she acted differently and presented information documents materially different from GZ, you can't accuse her of singling GZ out. Your personal notions of what she should do don't count. no offense.

Denver

"George Zimmerman was not in a situation where his duty to retreat was at issue"


but but but, does a citizen have a duty to retreat in Florida?

Kentucky Supreme Court noted that, "a Kentuckian never retreats". Should be the law in every one of the Several States, IMO.

NK

Porch-- who presented the information to the GJ in order to obtain the indictment? Corey of course. That murder prosecution was her call-- and the civil libertarians were 'outraged'. It's a very apt example.

Porchlight

Porch-- who presented the information to the GJ in order to obtain the indictment? Corey of course.

Of course. But she didn't present to a grand jury with Zimmerman. That's the point.

Moreover, it was not a self-defense case. So it wasn't like Zimmerman.

Am I not making myself clear?

Find me a case where local law enforcement determined that a self-defense claim was justified and did not charge at all, but Corey intervened, did not go to a grand jury, and then overcharged.

Then I'll believe you that she's treating Zimmerman like she's treated others in the past.

12-year-olds indicted by grand juries and cases where self-defense played no part are not adequate comparisons.

cboldt

Looking for self defense cases in FL, that didn't go the court for resolution. Those don't seem to make the news (heh).

Killing of Fla. teen ruled self-defense - Jan 5, 2012

A Florida teen who stabbed his classmate to death last year will not face murder charges, a judge ruled on Wednesday. ... Saavedra said he told Nuno he didn't want to fight, but Nuno hit him in the back of the head and continued to punch him.
cboldt

-- Unless you can show me that in those real world Corey cases she acted differently and presented information documents materially different from GZ, you can't accuse her of singling GZ out. Your personal notions of what she should do don't count. --


I asked whether it was normal for the prosecutor to omit mention of 776.032 in the filings. I honestly don't know. I asked this yesterday, within hours of her concluding her presser.


In this case, given that literally all of the public debate has been on the evidence surrounding the claim of self defense, it seemed and still seems odd for Corey to be mute on that angle.


As TomMcguire said, the information says Z shot T. Well, thanks, we knew that.

cboldt

Martin advanced on Zimmerman and asked, "You got a problem?" Z said, "No." Martin said, you do now!" and struck Z in the face, knocking him to the ground. Martin straddled Z, holding his head and beating it against the pavement, telling Z to shut up, and generally being offensive. The beating went on for about a minute. Z shifted his body, which caused his concealed pistol to be revealed. Martin saw the pistol, and while reaching to disarm Z, said "You're going to die tonight." Z pulled his pistol and shot Martin because Z was in fear for his life..


Prosecuting attorney: This is a clear case of murder with depraved mind. Z pulled his pistol and shot Martin.

NK

cboldt-- Z shot T unlawfully-- that's what information and true bill documents say. Sorry it's just not odd at all, it is the standard crimpro document.

Porch-- take a look at the current thread, at 322 RobC posted a tampa news article about self-defense cases. They cited 11 cases, 6 charges 5 no charges. Of the 5 no charges 2 appear to involve a home trespass and a carjack-- very different. So GZ being charged is like 6 0f 9 self-defense cases- how is GZ being railroaded here?

Enlightened

GZ is being railroaded because:

Martin's mother says it was TM screaming in background - not GZ - after the father said it wasn't TM

TM Girlfriend says TM told her he was scared of GZ because GZ kept following him - except that TM confronted GZ and girlfriend said he told her he wasn't going to run

Filing affidavit indicates GZ continued to follow TM after "police dispatch" told him not to - Wrong - GZ stopped following TM after 911 told him not to follow

TN was running home trying to get away from GZ when the incident happened - not true. His girlfriend or friend - whatever said TM confronted GZ and asked him why he was follwoing him - obviosuly he was not running at the time

Corey went with that for murder in the 2nd?

Orlando sentinel has copy of affidavit?

I Callahan

they are the statements of two savvy lawyers in the Florida criminal justice system who realize that this can be plea bargained

Plea-bargained to what? What possible reason would Zimmerman agree to a plea-bargain? 2nd degree murder is a massive stretch; I'd take a chance on a jury myself, and if I were convicted, there would be plenty grounds for an appeal.

Enlightened

Crump released audio of the girlfriend saying Trayvon asked GZ why he was following him. In the affidavit it says GZ confronted Trayvon first. They switched the order of her statement - Hmmm.

rayra

Ignorant punderati and "journalists", there is no 'duty to retreat' in FL, irrespective of their 'Stand your ground' legislation.
It is only the worst blue-states that have 'duty to retreat' laws that make it practically impossible to even defend oneself inside your very own home.

Scott

Regarding the gun supposedly jamming....

With most designs of semi-automatic pistols, if you shove the muzzle into something the pistol will jam. If you have a semi-automatic pistol, a simple demonstration will clarify this.

Take the (unloaded!) Pistol and cock the hammer so it is ready to fire.

Now, holding the pistol firmly so the frame doesn't move, push back on the muzzle so the slide goes back a short distance.

At this point, the pistol will not fire.

Due to this inherent design feature, I believe it is quite possible for Zimmerman to have been able to fire off one round - but for his pistol to jam before the second round could possibly be fired.

This is especially true if Martin slumped down on top of Zimmerman after being shot. His body weight could have created the effect I described above - and would lend credence to Zimmerman's account as Martin's weight bearing down on top of him could have provided the necessary pressure to cause the muzzle and slide to travle backwards just enough to take the pistol out of commission if Zimmerman was indeed holding the pistol perpendicular to Martin's body.

Also, there would have been no bruising to Zimmerman from the pistol in such a malfunction.

rantbot

"Stand Your Ground was primarily about a presumption of reasonable force in a self-defense situation at home or in one's car."

You seem to be confusing "Stand Your Ground" with "Castle Doctrine".

Scott

After watching both the prosecutor as well as the defence lawyer yesterday, my own theory is that she has brought a charge against Zimmerman that has a high bar to get over for conviction.

I also think this prosecution is nothing more than an attempt to placate the potential rioters by saying "See, we arrested him and charged him. Now go home and quiet down."

When this does hit trial, I doubt the judge will dismiss outright as the judge will be concerned about the same issues that instigated the arrest and charges to begin with - they won't want a riot.

A trial, under these circumstances, actually can work to Zimmerman's benefit if all of the supposed evidence I have heard prove to be accurate (Zimmerman stopped looking for Martin when asked to do so, 911 recording corroborates Zimmerman's sequence of events, Martin confronted Zimmerman, witnesses corroborate Martin being on top of Zimmerman and beating him, Zimmerman calling for help, etc.) As the public gets the full story and sequence of events straight from the court system instead of filtered through a biased media.

If that evidence strongly exonerates Zimmerman in the public eye, then the man stands a much better chance of getting on with his life.

DebinNC

Looks like GZ will have to take the stand to refute DeeDee's testimony re the fatal confrontation. I bet she'll also claim GZ was hunting TM like prey, not dutifully walking back to his truck.

Porchlight

So GZ being charged is like 6 0f 9 self-defense cases- how is GZ being railroaded here?

See my response on the other thread - I am still unclear how many of those 11 cases were similar to Zimmerman's (arguments/fights escalating).

We know that 3 of 11 were similar, and no charges were brought in those cases. We know that 2 were not similar, and no charges were brought.

Of the 6 where charges were brought, we do not know how many were similar.

So I don't know.

If I have more time tonight I'll go through the info at the link more closely...

Rick Ballard

Deb,

You're talking about another area where Zimmerman's statement may conflict with the precise circumstances. The police have good time records allowing them to examine the elapsed time from the termination of Zimmerman's call to the first 911 call. If the elapsed time is more than sufficient for Zimmerman to have returned to his vehicle and he had claimed in his statement to be returning, beginning from the moment he was told that he "didn't have to do that", then Corey will be on it like a cat on a June bug.

DebinNC

784.048

(3) Any person who willfully, maliciously, and repeatedly follows, harasses, or cyberstalks another person, and makes a credible threat with the intent to place that person in reasonable fear of death or bodily injury of the person, or the person’s child, sibling, spouse, parent, or dependent, commits the offense of aggravated stalking, a felony of the third degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.

If DeeDee's lying, I hope GZ can prove it.

PDinDetroit

and repeatedly

Do not forget that part DebinNC. One time following a person does not "aggravated stalking" make...

DebinNC

I wonder if "repeatedly" necessarily means on multiple occasions, or if GZ's hunting here, hunting there, stop-and-start search for TM would apply? I can see TM being puzzled at GZ watching him from his truck, then becoming somewhat worried when GZ left his truck and and seemed to be following him on foot, and then becoming alarmed when GZ starting running in pursuit.

an ncis fan

Tom:

While Abby Shuto is a fictional character, Pauley Perrette actually has a BA in criminology and forensic science. She was in graduate school in forensics when she went into acting. So, Abby maybe fictional but she is played by an actual forensic scientist.

jazz mp3

Having read this I thought it was extremely enlightening.
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I once again find myself spending a lot of time both
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